High School to Pay Students for Attending

[Rose Siding]

snip>
Under a privately funded program, students will get up to $125 a year for perfect attendance all year, as long as they graduate. They have the chance to get up to $500 for a four-year string of zero absences.

Educators across the state praised Chelsea for its boldness, but said they worry about the message the 1,430-student school is sending by paying students for something they should do anyway. By law, students must stay in school until they are 16.
...
''I will be interested to see what kind of results they get from it," Dakin said. ''But it tears at the heart of my educational being to know that schools are here to . . . teach kids, to stimulate them on to college, to prepare them for their future lives, and we've got to pay them to do that?"
...
''For $100, I'll try," said Arnold Hernandez, 14, an incoming ninth-grader at Chelsea High. ''It'll be like a bonus. You go to school, you get an education, you get a hundred bucks."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/07/30/chelsea_youths_find_school_does_pay_off/

[Solly Mack]

1. I had a cousin,(RIP) who got a special award for not missing a single day

in 12 years of school. Never late, never absent, never an early leave. The award came from the state board of education (Georgia)

He never skipped a class in college either. He never missed a day of work - until...

He died relatively young(50's) and of heart disease.

Not that there's a connection (skip school/die young) - but I do often wonder if he ever had any fun in life.

His personality probably didn't help - driven/intense


I was a senior in HS before I ever dared skip a class, much less an entire day.

School was my "job" and my "pay" came in the form of grades (tokens, if you will), that would allow me to gain a "ticket" to a future that held greater possibilities. At least that's how it was explained in my home. Education was viewed as means of making you a better person more than it was of getting you that certain job..."The better educated you are, the better you see the world, the better you understand the possibilities, the better the person you are" (Solly's mom)

Seems to me that that kind of reward can't be bought with money.

But then my mom believed in free education for all who desired it. (so do I)

[Rose Siding]

3. Also- there's no exception for illness

Students who are sick or miss school because of a death in the family will be counted as absent.

[Solly Mack]

4. My HS didn't have an exception either

and we were allowed only 15 absences (per semester/per class) before we failed a subject, regardless of grade.

I'm not at all comfortable with paying children to attend school.

It stresses the wrong thing. It makes money the goal and not an education.

[Rose Siding]

7. I agree completely

It teaches the wrong values.

*Maybe* something like a dollar amount as a tuition pledge for college or a trade. -But to penalize some of them for the flu or a death in the family!? That betrays "values" as I define them.

[Trillo]

9. I disagree

it is incorrect to teach children that they should labor for free when as adults they are expected to live under a capitalistic economy.

School IS work, regardless of indoctrinators who claim otherwise.

[Rose Siding]

11. Work done for the primary benefit of others should be compensated

But if it benefits the individual (initially, primarily) that is compensation in itself. *Education* is the compensation to the student, at society's expense -and for society's (ultimate, secondary) benefit.

[Trillo]

12. Does the high-school educated individual benefit? Doubtful.

As an adult, for the years that I've been alive, the proof of "value" is expressed in dollars in the U.S. K-12 graduates, the vast majority of about 75%, need only look to their adult level paychecks to realize what value compulsory school has brought them.

The secondary argument is that HS graduates are economically parasitized for the rest of thier lives.

The third argument is that the only solution to this that is offered by society is more education, which is what failed most HS graduates in the first place.

Our compulsory educational establishments have taught the majority to beat their heads against a wall of financial injustice.

[Rose Siding]

13. There are individual benefits

snip>
· High school dropouts are about three times as likely as those who have finished high school to slip into poverty from one year to the next.
(Current population survey microdata . (1989-1998). U.s. Bureau of Labor Statistics.)

...

· Average annual earning by educational level: 1992-1993
High school dropout $12,809
High school graduate, no college $18,737

{higher levels of education increase income amts}

http://www.dropoutprevention.org/stats/Bottomline1.pdf

More current stats state a higher benefit-

snip>
High school graduates, on the average, earn $9,245 more per year than high school dropouts. (Employment Policy Foundation, 2002).

http://www.dropoutprevention.org/stats/quick_facts/econ_impact.htm

[Trillo]

18. It's about indoctrination, not education. From data:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/education/p70-51/table02.txt

We learn that a Professional degree offers on average $5,534 per month income.
A high-school degree offers on average $1,380 per month income.

A dentist goes to school, I believe, for 8 more years than a high school graduate. The ratio of high-school to professional years spent in education is approximately 13:21, or reduced, 3/5, which converts to about 60%. This means that a high school graduate, while they spend 3/5 of the time that a professional does in school, they earn roughly 1/4 of what a professional does.

If we assume that education leads to higher income, this data points to a vast disparity of deferred compensation per hour spent in class. In a system that rewards what one knows with income in the earning years, we can conclude that high-school students are not being taught necessary survival skills as efficiently as professionals are.

The outrage is that learning limited to the lower levels confers no or marginal survival benefits. The data suggests High School is likely more about indoctrination than learning useful facts.

The results of the indoctrination are clear for everyone to see. Rampant Greed. An unjust war. Political favoritism while school teaches us we have a "fair chance."

Nope, school isn't where survival is learned, in fact, the data suggests the opposite, school is where complacency and acceptance of being "financial prey of exploiters" is learned.

[wli]

19. compare it to HS in other countries and it looks less like education

... and a lot more like a sham.

[Trillo]

21. I agree. Another sham, and the sham continues.... nt

[Maestro]

46. So are you suggesting increasing time in high school?

The fact is states have set forth what curriculum to learn. It is this way because the federal Constitution does not set forth any call for general education; therefore, the states were left to incorporate this into their constitutions. It is law.

High School is not about indoctrination. Is there room for improvement? Sure I would love the social conservatives to get the hell out of education and let people with more humanistic values get involved. I would love to see trades get more emphasis because not all kids want to be dentists or doctors or lawyers. High School as well as elementary school is about creating literate human beings capable of critical thought without extrinsic compensation!!!!!!!!!!!

Funny, who prepared the dentist to go to med school for 8 more years?

[bobbieinok]

70. love Frosty Troy and OK Observer

[Maestro]

71. He's a tireless supporter of public education

and he debunks the failure myths with some tough language as you can see from my quote. I'd like Alfie Kohn, Susan O'Hanian, Dr. Stephen Krashen and Frosty to debate any wingnut hater of public head. The wingnut would leave crying!

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Well as soon as kids have to pay rent and buy groceries,

then you will have a point.

[Trillo]

20. Kids aren't required to follow rules and do what they're told?

They can make all their own decisions in complete freedom while living with their parents?

LOL.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. The reward you get from going to school

is the knowledge you gain.

After I ask my students to do something and they ask me "What are we gonna get?", I reply "SMARTER".

[AX10]

24. Going to school is for one's own benefit. That is your payment.

Understand?!? :eyes:

You learn the basic skills needed to survive in life. It is absurd to pay kids. They can get a job at 18 and get paid then.

[Trillo]

28. No. School fails to teach the basic skills needed to survive,

except to a very few.

Understand? (should I have an eyes roll back at you?)

It is absurd to teach kids to labor for free. Why set them up for later exploitation? School is supposed to teach, not indoctrinate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Now your agenda is clear

Thanks - I get it now.

[Trillo]

36. WHY are your replies one liners?

No, you do not. Please cease and desist from casting aspersions. There is no agenda, except perhaps to make school better for kids.

I chose not to have children because I couldn't protect them from teachers.

You haven't changed my mind. Teachers could change my mind, if they worked day in and day out for the same wages that they require kids to work for, however, I'm not suggesting that as a viable course of action, but rather as a rhetorical to illustrate a point.

I didn't answer your other reply to me because the arguments become circular at a certain point. It is obvious that you either failed to understand the reference "for a very few", or you chose to ignore it. The reference was about a bell curve, but if you're a teacher as you claim, then WHY you don't understand the bell curve?

WHY are your replies one liners? Short ones at that. "Now your agenda is clear" It is you, sir, that appears to have the agenda.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Well my great education has helped me learn to respond

and make a point with fewer words.

I am sorry that some teachers damaged you at some point in your life. I find your reason for not having kids very sad.

Your suggestion that teachers work for the same wages that they require kids to work for is probably the silliest thing I have ever read on DU. Does this mean our paychecks should be replaced with smiley face stickers? If we do an especially good job, can we get the scratch and sniff kind? Oh, and does this mean we will no longer have mortgage payments or car payments? Will our groceries be free or can we use those smiley face stickers to pay for them?

And how in the world can anyone suggest that teachers be willing to work for nothing? This argument really blows my mind. We never hear that doctors are overpaid or accountants make too much money, but the anti-schools folks just love to bring up this teachers are overpaid argument. And it stinks. If you want teaching in this country to improve, the answer is better pay, not cuts in wages. I have as much schooling as my cousin the doctor. Why is my salary less than half of hers?

Several posters here have made it clear that kids are rewarded for hard work with knowledge and growth. Intrinsic rewards are more effective in the long run than extrinsic. That is basic psychology that every intro psych course teaches.

I am certainly not trying to pick a fight. I have tried to explain reasonably why attendance incentives are not effective. Paying kids to go to school is insane. Perhaps the most logical argument is that with the current budget crunch in most school districts, there are wiser uses of money. However, if teachers stopped expecting paychecks, then perhaps school districts could afford to pay the kids.

[Trillo]

39. Please stop arguing UNFAIRLY.

"Your suggestion that teachers work for the same wages that they require kids to work for is probably the silliest thing I have ever read on DU. ... And how in the world can anyone suggest that teachers be willing to work for nothing? This argument really blows my mind. "

Obviously, you read the first phrase, but then, once again, deliberately failed to acknowledge that I then stated it was a rhetorical and didn't espouse that as viable course of action, but then you run on with your silly smiley face illustration. This is unfair, and is what my title line refers to. I have been quite clear and consistent in my argument here that people should be paid for their work, including children.

You are the one espousing that some should be paid, while others shouldn't be paid: curiously, you then complain of wage differentials of your line of work as contrasted to doctors. This is either an argument of a confused mind and muddled thinking, or its an argument of deliberate deception.

"We never hear that doctors are overpaid or accountants make too much money, but the anti-schools folks just love to bring up this teachers are overpaid argument."

Once again, you failed to read my words in a post above. "A dentist goes to school, I believe, for 8 more years than a high school graduate. The ratio of high-school to professional years spent in education is approximately 13:21, or reduced, 3/5, which converts to about 60%."

There's more in that post, but you've now been proven to espouse a false argument. WHY is your mind so selective in what it sees? It appears deception is your agenda, not mine.

"And it stinks. If you want teaching in this country to improve, the answer is better pay, not cuts in wages."

It is hypocritical that you apply that argument to teachers, what you claim is your profession, but not to the children who are also laboring.

"I have as much schooling as my cousin the doctor. Why is my salary less than half of hers?"

Probably because teachers are now an instrument of the state, but prior to 1850 or therabouts, they weren't. Read up on the Prussian education model. It took awhile to find this link:
http://www.sntp.net/education/school_state_3.htm
Edited to add: As an instrument of the state, educational establishments are now part of the corporatist's system.

Woodrow Wilson said:
"We want one class to have a liberal education. We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forego the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks."
http://www.thememoryhole.org/edu/school-mission.htm

"Several posters here have made it clear that kids are rewarded for hard work ..."

This is a blatantly false statement and argument, only a FEW KIDS are rewarded for their labor, what you called "hard work". A phenomenon of financial marginalization of the majority, those comprising the bulk under the bell curve, continues throughout the rest of their lives, even you have noted some financial marginalization in the teaching field. That some people can't see this is astounding and speaks poorly of the either the indoctrinated mind or the mind of the indoctrinator.

This payment plan for PERFECT attendance continues the structure of marginalization. I have no doubts that it was designed with the help of an MBA to limit cash outflows. Other posters here have noted it's not healthy for children to go to school when they're sick, but this is what this payment plan encourages.

I'm sure doctors will make out like bandits treating the falling dominos of contagious illnesses from one child to the next and from child to parent and family that this school child payment plan encourages.

[Maestro]

45. What the feaking heck are you talking about?

You don't want one liners then listen to this. DO NOT EVER DISPARAGE THE MULTITUDES OF GOOD TEACHERS OUT THERE LIKE PROUD2BLIB You just continue the public education bashing. You are out of touch with reality and follow the repuke talking points a la Bill Bennett that school is failing and then you throw in some sort of state indoctrination bovine excrement.

Let's talk about American education. American education is the only system that accepts all children and there is no indoctrination of certain values except those of any good citizen. You want to talk indoctrination, let's talk about some private schools or perhaps Bob Jones University. Children are far more better educated today than in the past despite what many think. The test score baloney is crap and when social conseratives compare the test scores of roughly 75% of our children against only the upper 10% elite of other countries certainly the US will come out lower. It's called the rule of statistics!


Dammit! This crap pisses me off. How do plan to pay children for their work? This is strictly extrinsic motivation which in the long run is a failure. If you base your life on only extrinsic motivation, I pity you and if you expect children to expect extrinsic rewards for evertything they do, then the fabric of society will soon be in ruin. Children need to learn the joy of knowledge. Their paymnet is strictly intrinsic, satisfaction, praise from parents, teachers and peers and the ocassional extrinsic reward in the form of certificates, extra allowance, trips to special places, etc...

No child should be paid for learning knowledge. That is absurd. Learning knowledge just because is part of being human.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. I love you Maestro!!

Let's not forget how much teachers need good adminstrators like you.

:hug:

[Maestro]

48. Shhhh!

My wife might here. ;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Ok sorry

I'm way too old for you anyway. :)

[Maestro]

51. I'm 37

BTW. You can still love me though. Love makes the world go 'round.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Just a baby

I am almost 15 years older than you are. You could have been one of my students back in the late 70s.

[Trillo]

54. So making a Woodrow Wilson quote

is a repuke talking point a la Bill Bennett?

"follow the repuke talking points a la Bill Bennett that school is failing and then you throw in some sort of state indoctrination bovine excrement."

Nope, Bill Bennett wasn't mentioned in any of those links I posted, nor by me, you're the one who brought him into the conversation. Woodrow Wilson was a Democrat. I mentioned him. Did you know he was an academic and university president?

Both of those links were originally found by me from reading a highly progressive Salon blogger. I suggest everyone read them slowly and carefully. It is not "bovine excrement", though it's clear you appear to think so.

"Dammit! This crap pisses me off."

Noted.

DO NOT EVER DISPARAGE THE MULTITUDES OF GOOD TEACHERS OUT THERE LIKE PROUD2BLIB

I don't believe I've made any personal attacks.

I did my best to argue FAIRLY. Pointing out confusion or deception when I see it is something I will continue to do.


"let's talk about some private schools"

A valid point. Private schools are under no obligation to confer civil rights since they are not on public property.

"The test score baloney is crap ..."

Although I would have worded it differently, I agree with you and have made similar statements.

"This is strictly extrinsic motivation which in the long run is a failure. If you base your life on only extrinsic motivation, I pity you and if you expect children to expect extrinsic rewards for evertything they, then the fabric of society will soon be in ruin. Children need to learn the joy of knowledge. Their paymnet is strictly intrinsic, satisfaction, praise from parents, teachers and peers and the ocassional extrinsic reward in the form of certificates, extra allowance, trips to special places, etc..." (Note, bolding added by me)

You should consider reading thememoryhole.org article I referenced earlier. While you judged it, I believe incorrectly as "bovine excrement", there is a quote there by William Torrey Harris, US Commissioner of Education from 1889 to 1906, who wrote in The Philosophy of Education a very similar sentiment. He also wrote that the purpose of education was to "subsume the individual."

The reason I bolded a portion of your quote above, is that you write that "extra allowance" is a good thing sometimes, but you also write that paying students (as an extrinsic reward, I presume) is absurd.

That's a bit contradictory. Perhaps you need to think it through a little deeper.

This plan for PERFECT attendance is poorly structured. PERFECTION is also mentioned in a quote of the Rockefeller Education Board at thememoryhole.org link I posted above.

Children aren't perfect. Adults aren't perfect. Nobody is perfect. To set perfection up as the goal for children is absurd and speaks volumes towards intent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. The argument is whether schools should pay kids

and extra allowance comes from a parent. I think that is probably what Maestro was referring to. This discussion is about school incentives, not parental ones.

In case you didn't realize, there is an agenda by the RW to attack public education. The more folks they can convince that our schools are failing, the more support they get for their vouchers. And most teachers in public schools, like Maesteo and myself, are adamantly opposed to vouchers. It is not that we want kids deprived of a choice to attend private schools, it is because the money for these vouchers will come from current education dollars. And we don't have adequate resources at it is; our public schools cannot afford the loss of revenue it will take to support an effective voucher program.

This has been a 20+ year propaganda program from the right. It started during the Reagan administration. NCLB is a result of this movement to discredit public education. I find that unfortunate, as I embrace and welcome accountability. But the accountability standards in NCLB are grossly unfair and poorly thought out. Then there are the unfunded mandates. In a nutshell, NCLB is a recipe for public schools to fail, beginning with the urban schools serving the neediest kids in the country.

I think I can speak for most of my fellow educators here on DU and say that we have seen the writing on the wall for many years now and we just want desperately to educate DUers and help them understand what is going on and let them know that we are standing firm against this attack upon public education.

When we see posts like yours which contain these RW talking points, we tend to cringe. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when it echoes those we have heard from the anti public school crowd, we will try to present the opposing viewpoint.

As for what you say about perfect attendance, I agree completely. It is a ridiculous standard and will most certainly not be attained by 99% of our kids. So I believe we are in agreement about the lunacy of paying kids to come to school 100% of the time.

Peace. :hi:

[Trillo]

77. We probably have more points of agreement than disagreement.

"and extra allowance comes from a parent. I think that is probably what Maestro was referring to. This discussion is about school incentives, not parental ones."

Regardless of where it comes from, it's still payment of some kind. When I was young, and in elementary school, I had several close friends who lived nearby, and their parents paid them for their grades. For A's they got the most, for B's they got less, etc. Curiously, they excelled with grades and went on to higher education and also excelled there.

Other kids who didn't do as well, when asked by me, didn't get performance pay for their grades.

Unfortunately, poor parents probably cannot afford to do this, and it may not be the best way to go about it (I'm thinking here of your Harvard professor's essay and links you provided, Alfie something was his name.)

"In case you didn't realize, there is an agenda by the RW to attack public education. The more folks they can convince that our schools are failing, the more support they get for their vouchers. And most teachers in public schools, like Maesteo and myself, are adamantly opposed to vouchers. It is not that we want kids deprived of a choice to attend private schools, it is because the money for these vouchers will come from current education dollars. And we don't have adequate resources at it is; our public schools cannot afford the loss of revenue it will take to support an effective voucher program."

In spite of what you apparently think, I believe I have pointed out good reasons for the majority to be in a great deal of contempt regarding their own education. I'm not convinced that questioning the public school system, its motives, or its results, correlates to a RW attack, though at the same time, I understand and do agree that vouchers for private schools is a poor method of educational improvement. Personally, I also believe that public education needs to have its funding smoothed out so that high-property value geographic locals aren't at a financial advantage to those of poorer areas, and I believe this mostly because of the broad-brush concept that it's supposed to be about 'all' the kids, not just a few ones in wealthy districts.

"This has been a 20+ year propaganda program from the right. It started during the Reagan administration. NCLB is a result of this movement to discredit public education. I find that unfortunate, as I embrace and welcome accountability. But the accountability standards in NCLB are grossly unfair and poorly thought out. Then there are the unfunded mandates. In a nutshell, NCLB is a recipe for public schools to fail, beginning with the urban schools serving the neediest kids in the country."

Any mandate that's un-funded may be considered unreasonable.


"I think I can speak for most of my fellow educators here on DU and say that we have seen the writing on the wall for many years now and we just want desperately to educate DUers and help them understand what is going on and let them know that we are standing firm against this attack upon public education."

How one stands against something is important, and I think teachers need to be more aware of some facts than have been evident in this discussion/argument mostly between you and me. First off, for the majority, if the individuals in that majority take the time to think about it, they will likely conclude that education did not serve them well or as well as it could have. It appears to me from my limited research into the schools, that the system is designed to find a few individuals and to give them an excellent education; the rest are just 'doing their time,' and are intended for the most part to be menial task workers as adults. This is the essence of Woodrow Wilson's quote, if in fact he made that statement, it sure looks like he did. Our economic system appears to be one in which those few who do excel in school later prey upon the rest of us. The overcompensation of certain professions is what I'm referring to, but even that pales in comparison CEO compensation.

It's my belief that most people are not stupid, and to try to convince many former students who are now adults that the system had their best individual interests in mind will likely be met with inner contempt, and an occasional outward expression of that inner contempt. One of the objectives of education is the subsumption of the individual, it is certainly what I experienced in school, and our form of government was supposed to protect 'individualism' and individuals' rights. At least that's my non-legal or non-lawyerly interpretation of the U.S. constitution.

For many people, I'm not sure of the exact number (I've seen polls and data somewhere in the past that support this), in general, they do not feel they received as much as they could have out of their education. It seems there's a generalized dissatisfaction with education. In and of itself, this does NOT mean these people are RWers, thought its certainly possible the issue of poor education has been used as a political wedge issue, but I believe the poor education for the majority of people came first; in other words the issue is more akin to the dog that wagged its tail, instead of the tail that wagged the dog.

Education is supposed to be about all kids and helping them to achieve the most they can, whether those kids are from RW, Left, Up, or down families, they all need to be treated fairly and equitably. It was my experience that schools love to make 'examples' of a few, and that does not rise to a standard of equitable treatment for all.


"When we see posts like yours which contain these RW talking points, we tend to cringe. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when it echoes those we have heard from the anti public school crowd, we will try to present the opposing viewpoint."

I can't let this one go, 'cause I don't think I'm a RW'er by any stretch of the imagination, though I was likely raised in a family with some conservative leanings. My feelings regarding education have come from my own experiences and my own informal research, NOT some RW talking point sheet. But I note that you and your friend have used that keyword several times in reference to me or my ideas. Clearly, you are trying to frame me as something others here on DU might find repugnant.

You should 'consider' arguing fairly and justly, instead of opposing any leaf you don't like on the tree and pretending like that is the only leaf on that particular tree. "Conformism" is one of the apparent goals of education. One problem that I've seen with educators over the years can probably be summed up with the phrase, "they know best." Unfortuantely, teachers as humans, aren't perfect either, and they might be able to learn something themselves if they could only learn to temper that "knowing best" with some listening skills. OTOH, getting any "institution" to "listen" seems to be a futile task. Sure, the institution will appear to listen, but then the institution as a body politic tends to ignore those ideas in any way they can, and will engage in character assassination. I see it in the news constantly.

If you stand firm against something using techniques of confusion (or deception), what you build will not last. Perhaps its just a belief of mine, based in part upon life experience, but I think I've seen the sentiment echoed often enough here on DU to know that it's a shared belief, and I've learned in real, adult life, that in general, things based upon deception are discovered, eventually, for the dreck they truly are.

For the most part, most people are not stupid, and the truth has a curious way of asserting itself over time.

All the schools I had difficulties with were private schools, mostly. I'm not going to go into what, specifically they taught me most effectively, I think that's been handled very well by the first link I placed in regards to the Prussian education system and its historical adoption by U.S. leaders. I did have problems with bullies in public schools, however, for the most part I'm sad that I wasn't kept in public schools for my entire grade school years. There I wouldn't have learned the devastating lessons that I did in private schools, lessons that will be with me at least until the day I die.

They were lessons taught specifically "to me" by educators and teachers, I was made "an example" of for the benefit of others: these lessons I learned didn't come from some RW talking point sheet as far as I know.

I was "assassinated" by the educators when the quoted term is understood as a metaphor.

"So I believe we are in agreement about the lunacy of paying kids to come to school 100% of the time."

Yes, we can agree about the stupidity of paying kids to come to school 100% of the time.

In final words of passing, one thing for all teachers to keep in mind is that they are always going to be needed by people and their kids no matter how the educational system evolves over time.

Peace! :hi:

[stepnw1f]

66. Well Stated...

I am sick of repukes trying to infiltrate the system with this garbage. Do they think we are stupid. Do they think we don't know what they are up to.

They want to privatize everything public and then indoctrinate greed as the 31 priority. What a bunch of shallow minded idiots.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. What Maestro said

:kick:

Public schools are the backbone of our society. Good Democrats realize that. Republicans who want vouchers are doing their best to destroy public education. Smart Democrats know that too.

Please do some research on intrinsic and extrinsic motivation and rewards. As I said before, these are basic psych principles. Common sense teaches us that paying kids to go to school is an absolutely ridiculous notion.

This guy from Harvard is considered an expert on this subject:

http://www.gurteen.com/gurteen/gurteen.nsf/id/L000555/$File/0618001816.jpg

Our basic strategy for raising children, teaching students, and managing workers can be summarized in six words: Do this and you'll get that. We dangle goodies (from candy bars to sales commissions) in front of people in much the same way that we train the family pet.

In this book, Alfie Kohn shows that while manipulating people with incentives seems to work in the short run, it is a strategy that ultimately fails and even does lasting harm. Our workplaces and classrooms will continue to decline, he argues, until we begin to question our reliance on a theory of motivation derived from laboratory animals.

Drawing from hundreds of studies, Kohn demonstrates that people actually do inferior work when they are enticed with money, grades, or other incentives. Programs that use rewards to change people's behavior are similarly ineffective over the long run. Promising goodies to children for good behavior can never produce anything more than temporary obedience. In fact, the more we use artificial inducements to motivate people, the more they lose interest in what we're bribing them to do. Rewards turn play into work, and work into drudgery.

[Trillo]

55. Then why not eliminate money for everybody and everything,

if the basis of financial rewards in exchange for labor is doomed in the long run?

Next thing we know, we'll all be expected to work for someone else's goals, and not get paid even a penny! I think the word for that is "slavery."

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. No one is advocating ceasing financial rewards for labor

and labor is a whole lot different than education.

[Trillo]

57. Reread your bolded quote and THINK about what it states.

It specifically mentions "workplace".

[Maestro]

59. Which is completely different than the classroom. -nt

[Trillo]

64. The chosen quote DOES NOT make that distinction. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Two different things

Motivation derived from research with lab animals is NOT the same as motivation to earn a living.

You ought to read some of Alfie Kohn's works.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/managing/fbrftb.htm

[Trillo]

67. Thanks, I read it, quickly,

and don't necessarily disagree with much of what I read.

I did not read anything about basic payment being considered a "bonus" or "extra reward". In fact, he states that employers should pay their employees well, just get rid of extra financial incentives.

He (or is it she?) only mentions school in relation to "extra" rewards to manipulate behavior, but he provides no other examples. The word "school" only occurs once in one paragraph, and his use of it is obscured, relating it to the previous paragraph where he/she mentions employers and financial incentives, but not school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. He is a professor at Harvard

who has spent years researching motivation. That article is just one he wrote dealing with the business world. Here is a link to his website. I do believe the bulk of his work has been focused on rewarding kids at school. And, FYI, he is a mildly controversial figure among educators. He has a lot of admirers, like me (I got to hear him speak in person many years ago and he won me over big time) but there are also some educators who find him to be an extremist.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/

And here is Alfie Kohn's opinion on high stakes testing:

http://www.alfiekohn.org/standards/standards.htm
This quote is at the top of that page:
Making students accountable for test scores works well on a bumper sticker and it allows many politicians to look good by saying that they will not tolerate failure. But it represents a hollow promise. Far from improving education, high- stakes testing marks a major retreat from fairness, from accuracy, from quality, and from equity.
- Sen. Paul Wellstone (1944-2002)

[Maestro]

58. That is not the point.

You are applying some sort of economic principle to education. They don't go together. Of course one needs money to survive as an adult. Schools prepare kids to be able to function in that economy.

[Trillo]

63. I disagree

Schools prepare kids to be able to function in that economy.

It only prepares a small number for that. Remember President Wilson's quote.

Ever heard of the dysfunctional society? Ever think about the GREED intrinisic in our society today. Look around and see what the elites have created for most of the rest of us.

[Maestro]

72. It only prepares a small number for that?

Post your research please.

[Trillo]

74. Post 18. Been there for some time. nt

[Maestro]

75. How can that support your argument?

Are you saying that there shouldn't be vocational jobs? Are you saying that schools are preparing enough professionals? There is so much more that goes into the careers of children, just ask a counselor. You data simply does not support your argument. Education prepares kids for life not to be a specific professional. Student desire to seek a certain career plays a much larger role in preparing a child for a profession. Education teaches them to be critical thinkers within whatever profession in which they may find themselves.

If you want to advocate for more magnet type schools that are more profession oriented, those already exist and performing quite well.

[Trillo]

76. No, it's simpler than that.

Approximately 75% of the population falls into the non-college graduate category. Clearly, from the pay data, the hours spent in school do not pay off for that majority of 75%.

Simple analysis of the additional hours spent in school for those of higher paying occupations or professions indicates their pay is far in excess of what the additional hours spent in higher education should grant them when considered in ratio to those of K-12 schooling.

This relates back to what Woodrow Wilson said.

[Flying Dream Blues]

68. Actually, the way I see it is that

society is paying for children not to work by funding the schools, with the thought that an educated citizenry benefits all. School is a gift, not a job per se. Mandatory attendance is required traditionally to keep parents from using the kids for labor at the expense of their future.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. That's just ridiculous

My school always made an execption for deaths and illnesses if you had a doctor's note.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. If they aren't at school, they aren't at school

Districts may distinguish between excused and unexcused absences for incentive programs such as this. But the bottom line is that state aid is lost when kids don't come to school, regardless of the reason.

But your argument does present a good reason to oppose attendance incentives.

[Mojorabbit]

53. Gosh

I skipped half my senior year when I was in high school and still maintained an a average... That was in the seventies and I still have wonderful memories of those days away from the school. LOL

[Trillo]

2. There is no such thing as "perfection"

While this is a step in the right direction, it ties the money to "perfect attendance" instead of the "the labor involved while attending school."

So the reward will not be a postive one for many deserving workers.

Why can't civilization get it right?

[dsc]

5. This is no different than rewarding adults for their attendence at work

and I have worked at several places which did so.

[Deja Q]

6. Go in every day. Use your cell phone and ipod. Make $100. Okey doke.

:eyes:

You know, I almost think corporations have a point when using the 'education card' as the reason why they offshore. :(

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. The reason my district does this

is that anything a school district does to improve attendance is a money maker for the district. Until we stop basing state aid on attendance, I am afraid we will have many other brilliant ideas like this to improve attendance.

[Midlodemocrat]

8. This is a ridiculous plan.

Perfect attendance is a farce. Kids come to school sick, make others sick. It is completely irresponsible.

[alarimer]

14. That's my problem with this

Aside from the bribery aspect. I was a workaholic as a student but I missed school when I was sick. Not that it happened very often. I stay home from work when I am sick even if I don't feel too bad. I don't want anyone else getting sick.

The whole perfect attendance thing is not good.

[Horse with no Name]

10. Without researching exactly

Our school district tried something that was akin to bribery to get kids to attend school.
I don't remember the ruling, but it was taken out because it was a violoation of University Interscholastic Rules.
They called it bribery, I believe.:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. My district already does this!!

They are called 'attendance incentives' and are paid for via a state grant (so at least we can claim it wasn't the idea of anyone in our district:) )

The kids don't get incentives for regular school attendance, but for extra programs. Last year, we had Saturday School and kids with perfect attendance got $160. For summer school, which ends Monday, the kids get $75 for averaging C or above in all subjects and another $50 for perfect attendance.

And yes, most of the teachers find this program absolutely repulsive. The only benefit is it is an incentive to make kids behave. They know if they get suspended, they don't get their money. But most of us were able to make most kids mind long before we started paying them to come to school and get good grades.

[whosinpower]

22. We do that ourselves

For our son....if he gets perfect attendance - we give him a reward. Same as good grades. $100 bucks for perfect attendance - $100 for every grade exceeding grade level.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Good for you

Parents are the only ones who should be rewarding kids for going to school and getting good grades.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

33. Me too

I have incentives for my son also. Money incentives. And my parents had them for me.

My son knows that nothing comes for free. If you want it, you have to work for it. Is this not exactly what he will have to do when he finishes school and gets a job?

[AX10]

23. I missed 1 day of High School.

My grandmother's funeral. :cry:

This program is stupid. Your incentive for attending school is that you learn basic skills for life.

[stepnw1f]

25. Very Bad

I am opposed to adults rewarding children with money. It plants materialism into kids' heads at a yound age. It's bad enough that kids have been targeted by comercials so much. I do not think this is a constructive means to motivate yound adults to do what they are already supposed to do in school.

Going to school is more than just studying for a career someday. Anyone can memorize a list of definitions, but do they remember what they memorized three years ago? Nope....

[GodHelpUsAll2]

34. So

kids should be sheltered from what is going to occur when they leave school?

I think it's a very bad idea to have a kid live in a fantasy world where all is rosy then when that kids leaves school and is EXPECTED to be an adult and function in this dog eat dog world they are totally unprepared for it. I believe there is great benefit to the kid to have some idea how the real world works before they are expeted to survive in it.

[stepnw1f]

35. Is "Living in a Fantasy World" What Happened to You?

Nobody said "shelter". You did.

I grew up watching both my parents bust their asses, and it taught me plenty about the world of compensation. I didn't need to be rewarded for something that was already a responsibility. I knew what the goal was...

That's the real world.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

41. LOL

I always find it amusing that people who are of the belief that they are the end all be all of everything seem to be the quickest to try and be superior. Emphasis on the word TRY.

Edited to add:

"Is living in a fantasy world what happened to you" Is that the best you have? Let it all out, dream something else up in your own mind about a some one you have no clue about then let er rip. I could use a really good laugh so let me have it, take your best shot. I'm waiting.

[stepnw1f]

42. What The Hell Are Talking ABout?

Superiority or your inferiority? Bye bye....

[GodHelpUsAll2]

43. ROFLOL

Thanks. That was good for an even bigger laugh. But I know you can do better.

[stepnw1f]

44. The Issues... instead of your personal attacks

You lost the argument move on.....

[Maestro]

62. Is this all you can see to your argument?

I know high school debate team members that debate better without compensation. They do for the intrinsic value of knowing they did a good job. Stop equating acquiring knowledge with some sort of monetary value. Working in a capitalist society under certain economic conditions is far different than gaining knowledge and progessing intellectually.

[Maestro]

61. Exactly!

And school didn't "indoctrinate" to believe differently.

[Maestro]

60. No one paints a rosy picture of the world

They know they must earn a living.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. Getting paid to go to school?

Are people really that lazy now days? Good grief! At the end of the year at my school if you had perfect attendence you got a certificate and a little party.

[stepnw1f]

40. It's the Re-education Capitalist Camp

Creating good fascists...

:crazy:

[gollygee]

37. Not when schools can't afford to give teachers decent raises

when teachers get raises on line with people in other careers, maybe I'd be able to see it. But right now schools can't afford this.