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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 03:06 PM
Original message
Poll question: Should the US observe international law at her detention facilities?
I offer this as an alternative question to Cascadia's poll (Should Guantanamo Naval Base, Cuba be closed down?)

My own answer to that question was No. My reasoning is simply that closing down any one individual detention center in the Bush regime's network of offshore gulags will not assure that the standards of the Geneva Conventions and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment will be respected at the remaining facilities.

The expanded question is:

Should the US observe the Geneva Conventions, the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment and all other relevant conventions of international law to which the US is a party at any and all detention facilities under US jurisdiction or under the jurisdiction of foreign powers to which the US may render a terror suspect for questioning?

The last part of the question notes that the practice that has come to be known as extraordinary rendition is prohibited by the Convention against Torture.
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. The US is signatory to the Geneva Conventions
and should not be allowed to hold itself above international law.

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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. How long must we suffer this bs
No offense but the US has told me since I was a kid that they stood for all that was good. I have been lied to. Should Gitmo be closed? If the regime in power has control, ABSOLUTELY. Something is very wrong in our world. It makes NO sense that we would torture anyone for answers. Our spy's and those of our allies are the best in the world. In this day and age there is no acceptable reason for torture.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. For your reading pleasure, Ms. Blues


From Democratic Underground
Dated March 11, 2004


Why Torture Doesn't Work
A Critique of Alan Dershowitz' Case for Torture
By Jack Rabbit

Alan Dershowitz, the renowned legal scholar and civil libertarian, has stirred up a small hornets nest since the September 11 attacks by talking openly about the possibilities of sanctioning torture in America. Dershowitz feels it is incumbent on him to lead a discussion on a choice he feels is unpleasant but necessary.

Torture is regarded by progressive civil libertarians as an abomination that every civilized nation should outlaw. Modern international humanitarian law categorically prohibits its use. The Rome Statute classifies torture as a crime against humanity, the Third Geneva Convention (1949; Aritcles 3, 17, 87 and 130) prohibits its use against prisoners of war and the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949; Articles 3, 32 and 147) probhits it against civilians in situations of armed conflict. The United Nations Declaration of Human Rights (1948; Article 5) states unequivocally, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." Gloss is put on these declarations concerning torture by the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1984), to which the United States is a party . . . .

Dershowitz is regarded by many as a progressive civil libertarian. That he should part company with others on a matter that many feel defines progressivism has outraged more than a few. However, when one such as Dershowitz suggests that we cast aside much of what we hold dear, perhaps we should give him a hearing.

Read more.

This is one of my articles of which I am particularly proud.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Excellent article. Thank you so much.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bumping this and its sister poll
:bounce:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Another bump for both polls
:bounce:
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Personally, I would be content if....
... the United States observed U.S. law at its detention facilities. Unfortunately, that would require allowing detainees access to lawyers, habeas corpus, open trials by juries, probable cause, favorable witnesses, warrants and other very inconvenient things.

(By the by, torture is implicitly prohibited by US law under the 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimination and the 8th Amendment proscription of "cruel and unusual punishment." Not that the Current Regiem has ever bothered with the Constitution when it served them not to.)
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. Last call on both polls
:bounce:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. almost four trips around the sun since 9/11.
It'd be nice to have that national "adult conversation" about the event sometime soon.

But yes, to answer your question, of course.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I hear you
For the right, it's a political football. The left has tried to get it away from the right, that makes it no less a football.

For the Bushies, it's a pretext to make a reality out of PNAC's wet dreams. Osama did it, but they couldn't wait to get Saddam, who had nothing to do it.

For the rest of us, September 11 is a day of mourning. Three thousand Americans were murdered by fanatics from whom we are no safer now than then.

Yet say that and one is called a traitor.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Amerika, we have a problem!
Amerika's Bush Regime does not recognize nor validate Intl. Law.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I don't think we have the language for that discussion.
What we have isn't subtle enough to really talk, I think, about the reasons behind why people would blow themselves up or fly airplanes into buildings...and to discuss truly effective ways to stop that happening.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Response
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 08:28 PM by Jack Rabbit
If the political right is correct about anything, it is that what is to be done after something like that is find the guilty and put them somewhere where they won't do it again. Then we can take the time to ask questions like "what made them do this?"

Where they're wrong, as they often are in this respect, it is that we just don't go after anyone just like the guilty in some irrelevant respect, such as striking out on anybody who just happens to be an Arab or a Muslim.

Where they've been absolutely nuts in this case is not even finishing what was required in the first paragraph before moving on to the making the mistakes of the second.

And the Bushies have been dreadful at leading the discussion. They began this by serving up a black-or-white fallacy (you're either with us or with the terrorists) that precludes all meaningful discourse.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. the only problem I see with that
is that, four years later, we still haven't found a lot of the guilty and still haven't asked questions about motive or understood why this is happening. I don't think we can realistically wait on the first to have the second.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. To that
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 09:09 PM by Jack Rabbit
EDITED for typing

We haven't found a lot of the guilty because it is a low priority with our so-called leaders.

We haven't asked the questions because our so-called leaders, by adumbrating the above-mentioned black-or-white fallacy, have made anybody to the left of Attila the Hun a traitor and a terrorist.

You're right. If they're not serious about punishing the guilty, then we don't need to wait to ask questions.

Fighting a colonial resource war in Iraq in the guise of fighting terror was certainly not the answer to those questions anyway.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. *adds 'adumbrate' to mental thesaurus*
:) Thanks, Jack - it gives me hope that you're still around. !!
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I first saw the word used in a concurring opinion by Justice Douglas
That was a long time ago, when I was a political science student at San Francisco State University.

The case is Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969). Douglas, a First Amendment purist, expounded his problems with the "clear and present danger" doctrine limiting free speech.


MR. JUSTICE DOUGLAS, concurring.

While I join the opinion of the Court, I desire to enter a caveat.

The "clear and present danger" test was adumbrated by Mr. Justice Holmes in a case arising during World War I--a war "declared" by the Congress, not by the Chief Executive. The case was Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47, 52, where the defendant was charged with attempts to cause insubordination in the military and obstruction of enlistment. The pamphlets that were distributed urged resistance to the draft, denounced conscription, and impugned the motives of those backing the war effort. The First Amendment was tendered as a defense. Mr. Justice Holmes, in rejecting that defense, said:

The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree.

. . . Those, then, were the World War I cases that put the gloss of "clear and present danger" on the First Amendment. Whether the war power--the greatest leveler of them all--is adequate to sustain that doctrine is debatable. <452> The dissents in Abrams, Schaefer, and Pierce show how easily "clear and present danger" is manipulated to crush what Brandeis called "he fundamental right of free men to strive for better conditions through new legislation and new institutions" by argument and discourse (Pierce v. United States, supra, at 273) even in time of war. Though I doubt if the "clear and present danger" test is congenial to the First Amendment in time of a declared war, I am certain it is not reconcilable with the First Amendment in days of peace . . . .

Mr. Justice Holmes, though never formally abandoning the "clear and present danger" test, moved closer to the First Amendment ideal when he said in dissent in Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652, 673:

Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief, and, if believed, it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason. But whatever may be thought of the redundant discourse before us, it had no chance of starting a present conflagration. If, in the long run, the beliefs expressed in proletarian dictatorship are destined to be accepted by the dominant forces of the community, the only meaning of free speech is that they should be given their chance and have their way.

We have never been faithful to the philosophy of that dissent. <453>

The Court, in Herndon v. Lowry, 301 U.S. 242, overturned a conviction for exercising First Amendment rights to incite insurrection because of lack of evidence of incitement. Id. at 259-261. And see Hartzel v. United States, 322 U.S. 680. In Bridges v. California, 314 U.S. 252, 261-263, we approved the "clear and present danger" test in an elaborate dictum that tightened it and confined it to a narrow category. But in Dennis v. United States, 341 U.S. 494, we opened wide the door, distorting the "clear and present danger" test beyond recognition.

Judge Learned Hand, who wrote for the Court of Appeals in affirming the judgment in Dennis, coined the "not improbable" test, 183 F.2d 201, 214, which this Court adopted and which Judge Hand preferred over the "clear and present danger" test. Indeed, in his book, The Bill of Rights 59 (1958), in referring to Holmes' creation of the "clear and present danger" test, he said, "I cannot help thinking that, for once, Homer nodded."

My own view is quite different. I see no place in the regime of the First Amendment for any "clear and present danger" test, whether strict and tight, as some would make it, or free-wheeling, as the Court in Dennis rephrased it.

When one reads the opinions closely and sees when and how the "clear and present danger" test has been applied, great misgivings are aroused. First, the threats were often loud, but always puny, and made serious only by judges so wedded to the status quo that critical analysis made them nervous. Second, the test was so twisted and perverted in Dennis as to make the trial of those teachers of Marxism an all-out political trial which was part and parcel of the cold war that has eroded substantial parts of the First Amendment.

Action is often a method of expression, and within the protection of the First Amendment.

Suppose one tears up his own copy of the Constitution in eloquent protest to a decision of this Court. May he be indicted?

Suppose one rips his own Bible to shreds to celebrate his departure from one "faith" and his embrace of atheism. May he be indicted?

. . . One's beliefs have long been thought to be sanctuaries which government could not invade. Barenblatt is one example of the ease with which that sanctuary can be violated. The lines drawn by the Court between the criminal act of being an "active" Communist and the innocent act of being a nominal or inactive Communist mark the difference only between deep and abiding belief and casual or uncertain belief. But I think that all matters of belief are beyond the reach of subpoenas or the probings of investigators. That is why the invasions of privacy made by investigating committees were notoriously unconstitutional. That is the deep-seated fault in the infamous loyalty security hearings which, since 1947, when President Truman launched them, have processed 20,000,000 men and women. Those hearings were primarily concerned with one's thoughts, ideas, beliefs, and convictions. They were the most blatant violations of the First Amendment we have ever known.

The line between what is permissible and not subject to control and what may be made impermissible and subject to regulation is the line between ideas and overt acts.

The example usually given by those who would punish speech is the case of one who falsely shouts fire in a crowded theatre.

This is, however, a classic case where speech is brigaded with action. See Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513, 536-537 (DOUGLAS, J., concurring). They are indeed inseparable, and a prosecution can be launched for the overt acts actually caused. Apart from rare instances of that kind, speech is, I think, immune from prosecution. Certainly there is no constitutional line between advocacy of abstract ideas, as in Yates, and advocacy of political action, as in Scales. The quality of advocacy turns on the depth of the conviction, and government has no power to invade that sanctuary of belief and conscience.

Douglas' opinions almost rise to the level of literature. I hope you enjoied reading that.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. Absolutely, Mr. Rabbit
It amazes me that any patriotic American, whether on the left or on the right, could ever believe otherwise. Rightist patriotism in particular is based on the proposition the United States is superior in its conduct to other nations, and such persons betray their own claimed convictions in endorsing behavior by the United States that no observer could be expected to distinguish from the behavior of tin-pot dictators and totalitarian powers.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Exactly
Well said, sir.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Thank You, My Friend
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
20. Either we all have rights, or none of us do. nt.
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