Kid we know just sent to Iraq

[HockeyMom]

He joined the Marines. They told him he was going to go to flight school. He went to Pensacola Flight School for 2 months and never finished training. He just got his orders that he is being shipped out to IRAQ on GROUND DUTY in 3 weeks.

Promises, promises. We have become a nation of LIARS.

[Spinzonner]

1. Apparently he did go to flight school

that doesn't guarantee that he will qualify to graduate or even choose to.

How about getting and giving the whole story before making accusations of lies.

[HockeyMom]

2. He was supposed to go for SIX MONTHS

and become a PILOT. Don't ask me what kind of plane it was. I don't remember. They told him he would become a PILOT when he signed up.

[Spinzonner]

8. Nobody is guaranteed to become a pilot

You have to be qualified and competent at it. I would be surprised if his contract said otherwise. Do YOU know ?

You can be guranteed the opportunity to do so and, it would seem, he was given that opportunity. There is no information given about why he didn't finish. The possibilites that he either wasn't qualified or even chose to withdraw remain open.

Six months may be the full length of the training. That doesnt mean you get to continue no matter what.

[bahrbearian]

14. When they grounded Chimpy, he never went to Viet Nam

of course they didn't lie to "Him" either.

[leeroysphitz]

23. Marines?

I was In the Army but I've known plenty of Marines. The Marines pride themselves on being first and foremost Infantrymen. That means that before a perspective pilot ever gets to that level of training he goes through 13 weeks of infantry training and is, upon graduation, a qualified infantryman. (This is true of ALL marines male or female regardless of what specific job that they may have enlisted for.) If carefully read you will see that the enlistment contract also stipulates that you serve at their PLEASURE OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. At this point they own you. You must realize that this clause can supersede ANY other part of the contract, even your separation date (discharge.) It has ALWAYS been this way. ALWAYS. It doesn't seem fair and god knows I don't wish being sent to iraq on anyone (having been there in the first go round) but once you've decided to serve and make the commitment that is pretty much that...

[Flubadubya]

5. How rude of you...

..."making accusations of lies"... you think Bush.co doesn't lie enough for all of us, all of the time? Puh-lease!!! Spare me your admonitions and excuses for a totally reprobate administration!! OK? If you think Bush.co has ever told the truth, you are barking up the wrong tree... and are perhaps posting to the wrong forum. :wtf:

[Spinzonner]

10. This is not about the Bush Administration

in anything except the most remote way.

This is about military training and recruitment and that predates and will postdate the Bushies. It would be true even if there was no War on Terror or in Iraq.

Perhaps the facts of his individual circumstances should be presented before accusations are made about lies at this level.

As I said elsewhere, the military can guarantee the opportunity and the training, it cannot and would not - for the good of the service AND the individual - guarantee the success of the training and the subsequent assignments. The individual has to be able to absorb the training and perform the job to a standard. And the service member has to choose to continue the program.

Exactly what happended in this case ? Do YOU know ?

Perhaps you should stick to the details of the issue at hand before making admonitions about who's in the right forum ?

[Flubadubya]

17. Exxxxcuuuuseee Meeee!

Pardon me, but any attempt to give Bushco any kind of pass just SETS ME OFF!! OK???!!! Details are not required at this point... the suckers are guilty as hell... that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!

[Spinzonner]

19. Well, of course they're guilty of lots of things

but not necessarily anything to do with this.

So, perhaps we're supposed to convict people of just something instead of things they actually are responsible for.

Isn't that the Gitmo approach ?

[Oerdin]

25. That would be my guess.

The testing process for flight positions tends to be a one strike and you're out deal. fail one test, fail a physical fitness test, fail an inspection and you're gone. There are to many people who want those slots and not enough slots so competition is very high.

I share your frustration with people flying off the handle with only half the story, however, DU has a fairly young population (I'd guess mostly teenagers) and teens aren't known for calm deliberation and they tend to think they know everything even when their practical or theoretical knowledge amounts to beans. Rest assured that most of them will eventually grow up and become more contemplative and worldly. ;)

[PunkPop]

29. I think you're a little bit off there.

I don't know the exact make-up of DU members but I am fairly certain that they are not "mostly teenagers". In fact, I would guess that "teenagers" make up a definite minority of posters here.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. I am so sorry :^(

[flamingyouth]

4. I'm very sorry.

I know how it feels to have a friend over there. I wish him and those who love him all the best. :hug:

[Nite Owl]

6. I feel bad for him

these kids want the training and are willing to join up and then they kicked in the teeth learning how they have been lied to. Someone who works with my son just lost his son, day before his 20th birthday.

[rainbow4321]

The "quick citizenship" carrot

http://atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GG30Df03.html


With the US engaged in wars in two regions of the world - Afghanistan where the hunt for Osama and his ilk continues, and Iraq - the drive to enlist recruits is at an all time high. At one level, the route through the army is also very difficult and often a tragic way to become an American citizen, given the high casualties of war, especially in Iraq.

After the US launched the "war on terrorism", US President George W Bush made it easier for foreign-born US residents joining the military to gain full citizenship. Among other aspects, the usual five-year waiting period has been eased by a July 2002 executive order. Petition and fingerprinting fees were waived for service members. Any legal resident who enlists in the military can immediately petition for citizenship, rather than wait the five years required for civilians to start the process.

According to US immigration figures, 73 non-citizens serving in the US armed forces have died in the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Since September 11, 59 posthumous citizenships have been given out. Among them is US Army private Uday Singh, 21, from Chandigarh (a north Indian city known for its laid-back yet modern lifestyle) who was killed in Iraq in December 2004. His cremation in Chandigarh was attended by the head of the US Pacific Command and his remains interred in Arlington, Virginia. Singh, who was eager to become a US citizen, wrote to a close relative from Iraq last November. "I got some more good news. My citizenship process has finally gone through."

The carrot of citizenship through the army, of course, is a response to the US administration coming under increasing pressure over rising casualties in Iraq. With nations around the world, including India, refusing to officially deploy troops in Iraq, various methods have come to light that encourage people to join the war effort.

[K8-EEE]

7. I've Heard So Many Stories Like This

the sign-up incentives that don't happen because they're needed in Iraq...

I wish him luck!

[walldude]

9. This is pretty much standard now,

I know about a kid who is in the Navy and is being re-deployed to Iraq with a Marine Infantry unit. When we met with Veterans Services a few weeks ago about my Brother-In-Law's funeral we were told there would be no Color Guard because they were short handed, too many people in Iraq. Which makes me wonder how they expect to attack Iran?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. Is the Navy kid a medic? Because if he chose that field, then he'd be

very likely to get sent with the Marines, since their "in the field" medic needs are completely supplied by Navy Hospital Corpsmen.

[walldude]

16. Not medic.. Communications

I think he does radio repairs or something.

[wli]

20. attacking Iran won't be a problem

1. nuke first, invade later
2. send in troops from Afghanistan and Iraq into Iran
3. Iran's in chaos, no need to worry about the Iranian oil bourse trading in Euros
4. ...
5. profit!!!

[leeroysphitz]

26. No Honor Guard?

That is a travesty and an embarrassment to our entire nation. My condolences for your families loss. I am simply stunned that your family was not provided the proper services. This more than many things shakes me to the core. It's really beyond belief. It scares me. It's awful. How far have we fallen that we can't provide the appropriate honor to our veterans. If you haven't served you may not know that this is somewhat Earth shattering news, I just can't believe that this administration has let things get this bad. If people KNEW they'd riot in the fucking streets. It's an atrocity.

I served, briefly, on a funeral detail at Fort Bragg N.C. in the early 90's. It was intense training and funerals make me very sad but it was a time in my life I've always taken pride in. I've always felt that we truly paid honor to those that had passed on and provided some small but genuine comfort to those they left behind. Your news is truly staggering.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. Well I wouldn't say it the same way as Spinzonner, but his point is,

the young man may have "washed out" of flight school. It certainly sounds like he was given the opportunity to go. Details are not given. If he didn't make it all the way through flight training, which is not uncommon (these schools are supposed to be tough and selective), then he would be subject to "needs of the service".

If it happened that he was making it through school fine and was abruptly yanked to get sent to Iraq, then the indignation would be justified but just as futile.

But really... when you join any branch of the service, they reserve the right to place you in whatever capacity they need. So joining the service in the first place is the critical decision that the young man made.

Certain types of training in the military are tough and completion is by no means guaranteed. Flight school is certainly one such (remember Richard Gere's "Zach Mayo" character in "Officer and a Gentleman"? That was AOCS, or Air Officer Candidate School, which is the same school in Pensacola that the young man went to even though the movie set in in Washington State for some reason. The film is exaggerated, but you get the idea that graduation is not only not guaranteed, it's not always expected. Certain schools such as Navy SEAL training are designed such that the majority of people starting each class will fail.

[Kerrytravelers]

13. A good friend of ours, who is incrediablly gulliable, signed up a few

years ago. Both my dad and our friend's father -in-law are both 20 + career military. They both said things the recruiter said made no sense. Our friend blew them both off. Turns out... the recruiter "misrepresented" certain things to him.

My dad always says this isn't the sme military he was in all those years. Things are changing and it's getting very, very scary.

[HockeyMom]

15. Yes, I agree our friend was very gullible

Ok, let me give you the whole story and also what happened to my daughter.

The boy tried to enlist in the Army after six months of college. He didn't meet the weight requirement (underweight). They gave him 6 months to gain 15 lbs. In the meantime, the Army gave him a job as a RECRUITER. The kid only gained 10 lbs. We were shocked to learn that the MARINES took him, still being 10 lbs underweight for the Army. Does something sound odd here? Maybe it has something to do with his recruiter's job? Maybe he got into the Marines and got all those promises because of the recruits he got? I don't know that part of it, but I do think he was being very gullible. I will tell you what happened with my daughter.

She wanted to enlist in Army out of HS back in 1996, long before Iraq. She was still only 17 and would have needed our permission. She wanted to be an MP. She wanted GUARANTEES IN WRITING that she would be an MP. They told her the only way they could guarantee it was if she signed up for 5 years and not 4 years. She didn't like it. Both my husband (a Nam Vet) and I thought it all sounded too fishy. So we advised her, and she agreed, the only way she would enlist for 5 years would be if they PUT IT IN WRITING, that she would be an MP. At first they said ok. Then when the time came for her to sign, the recruiter started reneging on it. "Well, we cannot guarantee it in the beginning, but MAYBE later."

Fortunately, my daughter's mind was made up. No guarantee in writing, no 5 years, and no signing on the dotted line. She told them, bye, bye. They continued to call her about once a month for about year to see if she changed her mind. She didn't. She told the recruiter, "these are my terms, and if you won't agree to them, then I will not enlist".

As somebody said before, I think the boy was very gullible and they probably promised him the world after getting him into the Marines, still being underweight, and probably based on his recruiting for the Army.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

18. Yes but you still didn't explain what happened to cause him not to finish

flight school. Did he "wash out" (flunk the program) and fail to finish? That would be a common event.

If he were pulled out of the program halfway through because "we need more cannon fodder right now!", that would be a highly unusual occurrence, even now, because they would have been unlikely to have let him GO to flight school in the first place if they really needed him more as a grunt on the ground. It's unlikely that much would have changed between the time he started flight school and the time he got the orders for Iraq.

[HockeyMom]

22. Postponed my daughter said

He finished the "basic" flight training (term he used)he took in Pensacola. He is going to South Carolina for more training for 6 weeks, but not flight training. After that, he is going to Iraq. According to what he told my daughter, "whenever" his duty in Iraq is done, then he will come back to the States and go back again for more flight training. He told her that the flight training will take a few years.

I suppose, if he intends to make the Military his career, "whenever" flight training starts up again, is apparently fine with him.

We just hope he makes it back safely from Iraq.

[wli]

21. how are things changing? how is it scary?

Trying to figure out what's going on in that neck of the woods.

[Oerdin]

24. You shouldn't worry to much for your friend.

I did an 8 month tour in Iraq and it isn't so bad. There were a few "oh, shit" moments and you had to stay situationally aware but as long as you were thinking ahead you could stay ahead of things 99% of the time. There's always the one which has someone's name on it but this is pretty much a low intensity conflict compared to previous wars.

[leeroysphitz]

27. With all due respect...

You ar kidding, right? I mean I know 1800 dead is no Viet Nam or Korea or anything, but do you really expect people to believe that this is a "low intensity conflict"? Or even that there is any such thing?

I served in the first Gulf War and according to the official story the U.S. armed forces lost less then 400 people during the entire conflict which is good (and most of those were from traffic fatalities if you believe the official reports) but we DID wind up killing a not inconsiderable number of Iraqi conscripts and civilians. I'm sorry but I would feel DIRTY calling any war (including mine) that had killed 100,000 or nearly 100,000 HUMAN BEINGS "low fucking intensity".
I am glad you are home safe and I am gratefull for your service to the nation, however you may be high speed, low drag but you need to gain some perspective.

[w8liftinglady]

28. Things have changed.

My son is on his second deployment to iraq,after doing a stint in Afghanistan.There is plenty to sweat about.