Would you advise abortion in this case?

[Modem Butterfly]

Would you advise any of the couples listed below to have an abortion?

A: A married, devoutly Xian couple are expecting their first child in Milwaukee, WI. The husband is considering attending seminary when his wife becomes pregnant.

B: A married couple have a difficult marriage. They are pregnant with their fourth child. Two older children have died of illness. The father has a steady, relatively well-paying job.

C: An upper-middle class family in Miami, FL is pregnant with their third child. They have two daughters. The father is an airline pilot and money has never been a problem. They are not particularly religious.

[demnan]

1. I wouldn't advise anyone to get an abortion

It's an individual decision.

[Modem Butterfly]

7. Assume they've asked for your advice.

[Walt Starr]

10. Under that assumption

My advise would be, "no, don't have an abortion."

That's what I would say if asked under all three scenarios.

[Modem Butterfly]

13. Congratulations!

You're partly responsible for bringing Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler AND American Terrorist Paul Hill into the world!

Yay!

[Terran]

20. What EXACTLY is your point here?

That is if you have one? That these three people should have been aborted when they were fetuses because of what they did as adults? What a bunch of crap.

[Modem Butterfly]

22. Pssst....

It's a parody of a very well-known anti-choice argument.

[Terran]

27. Gee, thanks for the 'parody'

What a waste of time. The point is valid, but you might have saved me from clicking this thread if you'd just stated it up front. Look how many useless responses you've generated.

[Modem Butterfly]

31. No response is ever useless

Although some come very, very close.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

58. I don't think I've ever seen anyone miss the point by

so much yet still feel qualified to criticize.

Egad, glad you weren't here when the "Is God Dead?" thread was posted.

[Terran]

69. I missed the point (as did 90% of the people on this thread)

because the OP masked her very valid point in a pointless exercise in cleverness. I don't have any patience with such BS, it belongs in the Lounge. THAT gives me the right to criticize.

[beam me up scottie]

29. I got it right away.

You evil disruptor, you...:evilgrin:

[Modem Butterfly]

42. Oooh! Gold star for BMUS!

I honestly thought everyone was familiar with variations of the original argument, i.e., the abortion you have might be the next Beethoven, MLK, Jonas Salk, etc..

Oopsie!

[beam me up scottie]

51. PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE,

and save this, you may need it.

It's a good argument to have handy to debunk the anti-choicers.

[Splatter Phoenix]

79. No it isn't.

It's no better an argument than the one that asks "who would you elect" and gives you masked choices playing down Churchill as a drinker and playing up Adolph Hitler as a man who never cheated on his wife, etc., etc., it just doesn't work as an intelligent argument.

[blondeatlast]

55. Don't call it a "parody." It's a counter-argument.

Either both arguments are parodies, or they are arguments.

Gotta admit, i didn't see that coming. Good work, MB.

[Walt Starr]

21. BULLSHIT

That's the biggest line of bullshit I've ever seen spewed on DU, and you damned well know it.

[Modem Butterfly]

25. Well yes, it is bullshit!

It is, in fact, a parody of quite well-known bullshit, illustrated here:

http://www.biblecenter.com/illustrations/abortion.htm

[Walt Starr]

35. Yeah, well their argument is bullshit, too

False ssumnpstions are false assumptions regardless of what POV is being presented.

[Modem Butterfly]

39. Maybe you should try decaf, Walt

:)

[Kelvin Mace]

66. Methinks you need to state plainly your point

The tone of your question was serious-sounding. And while I got the punchline, some folks are not. I think some people haven't seen the original "question" and that is causing them to incorrectly infer your motives.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

Well-known to whom? n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

47. Folks that are involved in the choice debate

Whether for choice or against choice. The argument is almost as common as Pascal's Wager (the idea that the only options are a Xian god or no god at all, the point being that you're better off worshipping the Xian god just in case).

[demnan]

52. I would refuse to pursuade them either way

It's a bit of a touchy subject for me as I was accused by a former "friend" of helping her get an abortion. I did go with her to the clinic but only to provide support, not to make her decision for her.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Are they actually asking my advice? Because if not it's none of

my business.

[Modem Butterfly]

8. For our purposes, yes

[htuttle]

3. I would advise them not to listen to anyone but each other

[Guaranteed]

4. ????

I think it's up to them. I certainly don't know enough about their situation to give advice, and it wouldn't be right to do so even if I did.

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. None of my business.

It's their life, not mine.

[Walt Starr]

6. I wouldn't stick my nose into their business

It's up to them, not me.

[Modem Butterfly]

9. Assume you've been invited.

[Walt Starr]

12. If asked, the asnwer would be no under all three scenarios n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

15. Great! Now Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler and Paul Hill have been born!

Isn't that great?

[Walt Starr]

23. Yes, it is great

because of a single word, ENVIRONMENT.

I had nothing to do with any of them. Your rheotirc is extremely flawed here because of a base assumption that the parents of those three considered abortions.

[Kelvin Mace]

33. Walt,

Your missing the point. <g>

It was a staged question, the flipside of an old anti-abortion chestnut.

[Walt Starr]

40. No,. I'm not. I call any flawed armuent a flawed argument

This argument is equally flawed as its anti-choice counterpart.

[Modem Butterfly]

43. Um, it's not really an argument, Walt

[Walt Starr]

46. That's how you presented it. n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

59. That's what you read into it

I certainly can't be responsible for that. Sorry.

[Walt Starr]

62. A simple change would ahve corrected it

Just a simple thing could have taken away teh seriousness you presented.

:)

[Modem Butterfly]

67. For you, but perhaps it would have added to other's confusion

Unfortunately, I can't please everyone...

[Kelvin Mace]

45. That was the point and you are correct

it is a VERY flawed argument and wasn't offered seriously. It is the counter-point to people who offer the original argument, retooled for the left.

[Walt Starr]

53. I contend that it WAS presented seriously

there was no humor or any indication that the OP was not absolutely serious about the presentation.

[Modem Butterfly]

56. And I contend that it wasn't.

Since I am the one who made the presentation, I should know.


Right?

;)

[Walt Starr]

63. Nope, you are wrong

Now, had you put the emoticon on the OP that you did here, you would not have been presenting it as a seriuos question.

[Kelvin Mace]

64. The you will have to ask the poster

I thought the question was serious until I read the punch line. As I mention in another post, I did something similar to rebut the stup anti-abortion argument a while back. Of course, I was anything but subtle about it.

[ET Awful]

30. Only if you assume that the only families ever to fit your descriptions

are those of the names you mentioned.

Do you really think that the Dahmers were the only family in history whose husband considered attending Seminary school?

[Modem Butterfly]

34. No, I don't

It's a parody of an anti-choice argument:

http://www.biblecenter.com/illustrations/abortion.htm

[Kelvin Mace]

50. Correct me if I am wrong

You were re-tooling the anti-abortion argument as a means of showing the spuriousness of the original argument?

[Modem Butterfly]

54. Absolutely

The entire idea is completely ridiculous especially when shown from the other side.

[Kelvin Mace]

61. Some folks are getting over-heated

I fear, so you may have to be more obvious. <g>

[Modem Butterfly]

68. LOL

People should get overheated. The very idea that the decision to abort could spare the world a Paul Hill or Jeffrey Dahmer is patently ridiculous, but then, so is the idea that an abortion could deprive the world of a Beethoven or MLK.

[Terran]

11. You haven't stated any reason to get an abortion, in any case.

Therefore your question is non-operative, it cannot be answered.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. I would force all three of them to get an abortion

Not really but there is no difference between forced abortion and forced birthing....two sides of the same coin where we the people interfere with other people's right to medical privacy.

[Modem Butterfly]

72. Congratulations!

Now the world will be spared Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler and Paul Hill!

Not really but there is no difference between forced abortion and forced birthing

Very, very true.

[MissB]

16. Even if I was asked for advice

the advice I'd give in each case is that it should be a decision that should be between the couple and their doctor. Even as a friend, it wouldn't really be any of my business. As a friend, my job is to be supportive of their decision, not try to make it for them.

[MissB]

17. oops

must've clicked twice.

[Kaylee]

18. Even if asked...

I wouldn't stick my nose in it. I'd be more than happy to listen, but I wouldn't want to be responsible for anyone's resentment one way or another.

[flyingfysh]

19. it's none of our business

It is up to the people involved, no one else.

[Kelvin Mace]

24. Methinks that Madame Butterfly is pulling our collective leg

She is re-casting a favorite anti-abortion "test"

I did the same thing myself a while back:

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/000213.html

[Doctor_J]

26. This thread is really, REALLY offensive

I don't know if there is a point to it, but advice on reproductive choices is supposed to be give by trained counselors close to the situation and the woman's physcian. That's it. WTF does the fact that Jeffrey Dahmer's dad was a seminarian have to do with anything?

Yikes,

[Modem Butterfly]

28. Well, in the real world, people often ask others for advice

And the point is here:

http://www.biblecenter.com/illustrations/abortion.htm

[Doctor_J]

73. OK, I see

Sorry, MB. I just now got your point. Ignore me I am having a bad day.

[Modem Butterfly]

76. 's'allright!

This sort of question is supposed to be provocative. The people in the anti-choice version are usually among the very best in history (i.e., Beethoven), so the people in the answer had to ve among the very worst.

[noamnety]

38. Yes, that's the point

This is an argument that the anti-choice crowd regularly uses. They point to good people, conceived under difficult circumstances, as "proof" that abortion should be illegal.

The POINT of the thread is to demonstrate how offensive it is.

[Kelvin Mace]

41. Read the entire thread

there is a point to her question.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Yes. And, here's why.

If they are that uncommitted to having and rearing a child and seek my advice, I would surmise that they don't want a child.

[bleedingheart]

36. I would be there to talk to but I would not advise them...

they need to make their own choice.

[pitohui]

48. don't advise anything unless asked

in all cases, if you have to ask, i advise you not to have the kid, kids should be wanted, not something you have because you were too lazy to update your "to do" list

[blondeatlast]

49. I wouldn't advise it in any case. It's entirely up to those directly

involved.

[gollygee]

57. IF they asked for advice

A: No I wouldn't because if they're very religious they're more likely to regret it in the long run.

B: Bringing a baby into a difficult marriage isn't always a good idea. If she's seriously considering abortion I would think it might be a good idea in this case, unless the grief from the death of the other two children would make her have emotional issues. Maybe an unbiased psychologist to help her sort out her grief and feelings would be a good idea.

C: Unless they want an abortion for some reason, no.

I would not advise abortion for zero population growth reasons. I would advise birth control for that reason, but if someone unexpectedly becomes pregnant then I think they should make the choice based on their emotional state, whether they are likely to have serious regrets about an abortion, on their financial situation, and on the state of their marriage, or whatever of that seems relevant to them. It is too personal and emotional a choice to be made for political reasons.

I choose to only have one child, but if I found out I was pregnant I would not have an abortion unless there was some health problem. I wouldn't have an abortion even if I found out I was pregnant, and had another baby, and then found out I was pregnant again. I would be a mom of three in that case.

Edited because I should have read the whole thread before I answered . . . I have half a mind to delete my response.

[Modem Butterfly]

71. A thoughtful, serious answer is the point.

The original version is phrased so that most folks would, in fact, advise an abortion and would be aborting everyone from Jonas Salk to Jesus Christ (seriously!).

[gollygee]

75. I thought it was about zero population growth again

But I see where you're going with it.

[beam me up scottie]

60. Are atheists so much better at this

because we've had to debate religious pseudo-logic our entire lives?

[demgurl]

65. I am just a person and simply can not adivse.

The great thing about choice is everyone gets to choose what they will do, not that someone will do it for them.

If a friend cornered me and asked for my opinion on her case I would simply tell her that I understand what she is feeling because I have been there myself, but in life we are adults and we do have to make our own decisions because we are the main ones effected by those decisions. If the person is asking me then I assume it is something they are seriously considering so I would ask them to think it over and look deep within their heart and mind as to what is the right decision for them. I would also offer to take them and be with them afterwords. Having experienced the procedure myself I would also offer to answer any questions they may have.

I think it is important in any situation, regarding abortion, not to act judgmental toward the person asking the question because quite honestly it really is none of your business what they do.

[ComerPerro]

70. A: Hell no. B: no, but depends. C: No, why would they? EDIT: I get it

EDIT: I see where you are going with this.

I love it!

Great way to frame this!

[Solly Mack]

74. snicker

[Greyhound]

77. Anything that get 'em off the 101. n/t

[Splatter Phoenix]

78. I'd rather go back...

And stop that neighbor who molested Dahmer, maybe make sure his parents didn't break up, send him in for professional help...

Get Adolph a job as a mediocre painter...

And maybe try to convince Paul Hill that religion in itself is a fallacy, but if you're GOING to listen to it, you might as well listen to the thou shalt not murder part of it, and not the Christ's "I come bearing a sword" or whatever he said part.

EDIT: *sigh* I kind of missed the point myself. I thought you were being serious. v_v I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion, so I don't go around saying "KILL YOUR UNBORN PARASITES THAT FEED UPON YOU IN YOUR WOMB", and I suppose a dumb argument (like killing off Beethoven) deserves a dumb counter-argument, because maybe that's all fundies and the like understand. Apologies, everyone.

[Ysolde]

80. Thanks for this.

I just recently (last week) received the anti-abortion e-mail here at work. I do hope I kept it so that I can send this to the person (and the entire list) that sent it to me. It is a PERFECT reversal of their stupid "argument" against abortion.

I know a lot didn't "get" your post (and, to be honest, I did not until I read further and saw the "punch line"), but it is a valid "rebuttal", and I hope to get to use it myself.

[radwriter0555]

81. Sure, why not? What's wrong with abortion?

It's no big deal, just another form of birth control.

Don't like it? Don't have one.

[Moderator]

82. Locking

Flame-bait.

DU Moderator