Suppose the DLC is correct: We win only as Republican Lite.

[BillZBubb]

1. What does that say about Americans?
2. Does that imply that progressives have no real hope? We can get bad or worse, but nothing good.

Discuss...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I'd ask them to explain how we lost the house, whitehouse, and senate

with their agenda resulting in over 800 state seats being gone as well :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. dupe

[Somawas]

3. This old liberal becomes a Green

and goes back to 60's style takin' it to the street.

[stanwyck]

25. Absolutely!

move to the middle? Why? The middle isn't even the middle anymore. No. A very hard left turn is needed. The separation of church and state. The guarantee of civil rights for all people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. The guarantee of women's rights over their own bodies. The right of collective bargaining and the formation of unions. The right to sue manufactuers of dangerous products. The right to sue those who main and kill through ill-managed services. Improved public education and public transportation. And national healthcare. We need to examine our budget -- particularly the huge allotment to the military industrial complex. Not the troops. But the Halliburtons who are soaking the taxpayers. We need to make the environment a priority. We need to hold our CEOs accountable for their average $30 million per year. No more rewarding gross incompetence.
The middle is no man's land. Forget it.

[marions ghost]

48. u said it, stanwyck

:applause:

"The middle is no man's land." --am with you all the way on that.

[Larkspur]

4. Montana Dems did not win as Repuke-lite

Montana is a Red state. They returned to the Democratic economic populist roots and rejected the National Dem frame for Dems -- the pre-Dean frame or the DLC frame that Dems need to veer right of Repuke.

[sandnsea]

14. But not left either

Every time a Democrat takes a "balanced" stand nationally, the left goes wild. Then makes presumptions about Schweitzer without knowing th details of what he does. Like on roadless areas. If Lieberman said what Schweitzer said, he'd be called a DLC sell-out whore.

"We need to recognize that these lands are for multiple use," he said.

Schweitzer's approach is right, bringing everybody to the table and listening. But the second a ten acre plot is designated in a way environmentalists don't like, the left will jump into the fray and scorch every Democrat who participated in the process. That or suddenly become 'enlightened' on the topic because one of their heros presented it. Nauseating. And I like Brian Schweitzer alot, but I'm not under any delusion about his politics. He's a centrist.

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2005/07/22/news/regional/6ff9cd703ac0cc758725704500747a08.txt

[NYCGirl]

22. You know how Schweitzer won? Not by going left or right; the big secret

is BY BEING HIMSELF! That's the impression I get from that man. He takes no crap from anyone and is totally unapologetic about who he is and what he believes.

That, IMO, is the ticket!

[sandnsea]

27. More or less

Yes. But I do know I read about a gun ad that he ran over and over to beat it into people's heads that he wouldn't take their guns. And I also know he uses "hick" language, and most Montanans don't. So I don't know where that comes from. There's a bit of image building with the guy, but for the most part, he is who he is. He also doesn't have extremists breathing down his neck over every little thing he says and does either.

[Larkspur]

59. And unlike the DLC mantra, Schweitzer did not waffle when he answered

questions.

[Pystoff]

36. Good damn point

Democratic populism is the ticket and what they should return to. Considering how crappy the economy is now and how much of our economic force has been outsourced even moderate Pugs would come running toward us if the Democratic party would turn that way. Problem is they love that corporate money for campaigns and don't even realize the public ear is enough and no amount of campaign cash can plug that ear up when you talk jobs and around the dinner table issues. The southern states would be in play big time if they did this as well considering populism was huge down here. Farmers love it and it would make the midwest in play too. Dean is a nuts and bolts thinker and not a far left thinker but is a guarded populist because even he fears something about...what he fears just saying is beyond me other than a fear of campaign cash becomming slim I guess. I love Dean anyways he just needs someone in his ear pitching the Montana Dem angle.

[ibegurpard]

5. They may BE right

But they are making no efforts to try to CHANGE that. Does anyone think that the kind of radical Republicans who now run the show would have had a chance in hell of being elected 30 years ago?
They've been working on their campaign of lies and propaganda for that long and instead of working to counter it, the DLC insists on marketing to the status quo instead of trying to change perceptions and create new demand.
That is what the Republicans did and why that lesson is lost on Democratic strategists is a mystery to me. They are either clueless or they LIKE it this way...neither one is a very nice option to consider.

[Totally Committed]

6. Let them try and win without us.

Progressives have nothing to lose if the only way Democrats can win is as Repub-lites.

I just don't feel that this is necessarily true. The DLC has not been terribly successful outside of Bill Clinton, who fought tooth and nail to win, and enjoyed a back-draft from Ross Perot. The DLC would never counsel such gutsy in-you-face a campaign now.

So if we are damed if we do, and damend if we don't, I say let 'em win with out us. I'd rather not feel screwed perpetually by my own Party.

[podnoi]

15. Clinton also won on personality. It is not a good comparison

[marmar]

7. A Democrat imitating a Republican...

is going to lose to a real Republican every time. There is definitely hope for progressives. The country slides in and out of political moods, depending on what's going on. I think this administration's screwing of everyone and everything that doesn't drill for oil somewhere is going to push the American public in a more progressive direction.

[stray cat]

8. Define Green party, democrats and DLC platforms versus republican

I hear alot of rhetoric but not alot of specific details

[Tux]

13. Here

http://www.therealdifference.org/issues2.html

[sandnsea]

19. Worthless crock right out of the gate

And why I have days where I hate the left as much as I hate the right. Leaving the Iraq War aside...

"Kerry says the President has the right to preemptively strike any nation without Congressional approval."

If a country has ships off our shore and is ready to attack, a President has a right to attack them first. Duh. Is this misinterpretation of preemptive strikes and Democrat's position intentional or are Green's this stupid?

The site goes on to say "The Democratic Platform says nothing about overturning or revising the USA Patriot Act", which is just a flat lie.

Dem Platform:

"We will strengthen some provisions of the Patriot Act, like the restrictions on money laundering. And we will change the portions of the Patriot Act that threaten individual rights, such as the library provisions, while still allowing government to take all needed steps to fight terror. Our government should never round up innocent people only because of their religion or ethnicity, and we should never stifle free expression."

The Greens are no more truthful than the neocon right. It's damned frustrating.

[Tux]

28. Oh well

This is what happens when you join a side that allows people to think for themselves.

[sandnsea]

30. No, it's what money causes

No matter where the money is flowing. Unfortunately.

[Tux]

31. True

But be upset at those that take the money and ignore the people. Greens, Dems, Libertarians, et al disagree a lot (I love Green Party and can't agree with most of it but better than Dems) but we all have a stake in America. If we allow COngress to sell our nation piece by piece, what do we have left.

If the money bothers you, use OpenSecrets.org to find out who gets the cash. Even covers entire parties.

[sandnsea]

33. I just wish somebody would tell the truth

And nobody does. And people who actually don't think for themselves, don't know the difference.

[Tux]

38. Truth

Depends on information. BushInc isn't exactly forthcoming with data and information to work with. And each progressive party is trying to attract members. No different than business. Since the parties won't form a coalition, it is what we have to work with.

[sandnsea]

39. That's no excuse at all

It's self-righteous pretense masquerading as political activism and altruism. What I posted had absolutely nothing to do with BushInc. It was a conscience decision by somebody to lie.

I want the Greens and left to build a strong movement, but they have to do it on the truth. As long as they refuse and choose to lie about Dems instead, there's no way to build any sort of parallel coalition.

[Tux]

44. OK

Strt building the coalition. Talk is cheap but we need action.

[Somawas]

34. I disagree with the way the Green page characterizes a number of

Dem positions. But I agree with the Green position on 22 of the 25 issues they have listed on that little "comparison. And their positions are just not very far left.

[MadHound]

50. Gee, cherry pick much?

Your quote from the Greens vis-a-vis premptive strikes is taken completely out of context. If you would be honest with yourself and others, you would state that the issue being talked about was the Iraq war, and the pre-emptive "shock and awe" attack that Bush chose, and Kerry and the Democrats supported. Nice try at a smear there friend, but it doesn't fly.

And as far as the Patriot Act goes, it needs to be revoked in its entirety. Not reworked or revised, but rejected, revoked, done away with completely. That the Dems are continuing to support this atrocity says a lot about the party, none of it good.

[applegrove]

9. Neither you nor the centrists will get everything they want in a Dem win.

In a democracy - you get what you need. Everything isn't exactly what you want. Some groups get something, some other groups get something else (hello - medicare reform). That is the way it always has been.

Neocons are the only ones who actually believe that everything has to go their uber-elite way or a crime has been comitted.

[wtmusic]

10. If the public is aware we will win

the main battle should be for the media. If we fail to win back the media, we have no hope of winning elections.

[madfloridian]

11. We did NOT win doing it their way. we LOST all of it.

Why do people keep saying their way worked. It did NOT work. The GOP has it all.

[LSK]

17. EXACTLY!!! n/t

[Totally Committed]

23. I so agree. n/t

[Trillo]

12. Why then you have alienated a portion who will take their vote

to a third party.

1. We're indoctrinated.
2. I don't know.

That votes are counted dishonestly and people are prevented from voting with all sorts of games, suggests that whoever wins is suspect. Perhaps the purpose of a Republican Lite meme is to 'frame ahead' by attenuating concerns of election fraud and prepping the public thereby fooling the masses, while those who really do select the leaders continue in their deceitful ways.

[LSK]

16. wouldnt the DLC have to win something before we listen to it?

Clinton won and who else?????????????

[podnoi]

18. They won't win. The middle follows leadership

Be it good or bad leadership. If you imitate you are not leading. We have everything to gain by promoting a strong contrast. We have to LEAD. Half of the country is so uninformed they still think Iraq was involved with 9/11.
When will the Democratic leadership get with it. That is how politics works. Many people are followers. Convince them you mean well for them and will take care of them and that your vision is superior.

[Just Me]

20. The DLC fails to advocate for an American vision. Hence, they've lost.

If they are unwilling to fight for the backbone of this country (that would be "the people",...HELLO), they are just another lost cause.

[kentuck]

21. It accepts the fact that the majority are in the middle and....

many of those are Repubs that will switch to Democratic Party or not vote at all if given the choice of someone very much like a Republican. They become acceptable to the "majority". Therefore, we have a better chance at winning with a DLC "moderate" by that rationale? We win the middle. The left is very much more a minority than they think, the DLCers think...:)

[Cha]

24. They don't have a good track

record but too many don't pay attention to history and they don't learn from it.

It's like rats in a maze learn faster.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Vote issues not party. Think for yourself.

The DLC is probably right. The American electorate is more conservative than we would like to believe. They have been voting for conservatives since FDR. We on the left have gone from looking at elections as voting for the "more liberal" candidate to voting for the "less conservative" candidate. Since Dukakis, we haven't had a liberal candidate to vote for.

So, do we join the established oligarchy via the DLC and it's candidates or oppose it?

I, for one, will be voting issues, rather than party. The "not as bad as" formula has failed. As Harry Truman said, "If you run a Republican against a Republican, you get stuck with a Republican."

Thus, I'm against the war and American neo-colonialism. If a candidate supports it, no matter what party, I will look elsewhere.

I will be voting Green for senator in '06, and expect to do the same in '08 for president.

[Bouncy Ball]

29. Fuck that.

That's my discussion. Fuck that.

I'm a perfectly reasonable person. I'll listen to any and all sides. I'm capable of compromise, do it all the time.

But there are certain basics you just don't bend over and take it up the ass for. You hold on to them.

Becoming repuke-lite is like saying "yeah they are right but we can't admit it, so we'll just pretend to be like them."

WHAT the fuck is THAT about? I don't think they're right, in fact, I think there aren't too many other political parties in history who have been MORE wrong than today's repukes (there are a few in history, but not many!).

So of course I am going to oppose them and work for MY side, which I believe will lead to a better country and a better world.

I voted third party before, I'd certainly do it again if I had to.

[KG]

32. DLC - the number 1 reason the dem party is totally out of power.

[mmonk]

35. If they were right,

we would own Congress. Instead, we've never been more powerless.

[journalist3072]

37. They are not right. Here's how we win...

We win by clearly stating what we stand for as progressives. What do we offer America.

In order to win, we need leadership.

I was watching The American President last night, and my favorite line in the movie comes from Michael J. Fox's character. He is a Presidential aide, and in a heated exchange, he tells the President:

"People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand."

I think we need to keep repeating this to the Democrats.

[hatrack]

40. Then it is time to think seriously about leaving this country

Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Vanuatu, wherever.

The degree of venality, arrogance, complacency, laziness, self-righteousness, selfishness and ignorance such an outcome would represent would give me no other option.

If the car's on fire, then it's time to quit worrying about which station you're listening to, grab the door handle and get the hell out.

[Karmadillo]

45. I agree, except I'm not sure

such a United States would be comfortable allowing such havens of licentiousness to continue on their way unregulated. Posterity has a lot riding on our getting our act together and actually fighting back against those who building the global oligarchy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. One of the least appealing features of the DLC (and those influenced by

it) is that they seem incapable of talking in anything but vague generatlities, as if they're afraid of offending anyone.

[Karmadillo]

42. What if the Reps go further right and we can only win as real Republicans?

And then what if the Reps go even further right and we can only win as even further right Republicans? Is there a point where we simply fight for fundamental principles of social and economic justice or should we always follow wherever the right leads us? How do we know what the results of such a fight would be unless we actually engage in it? Given the DLC track record and our recent stunning lack of success at the state and national level, maybe we should suggest they follow us for awhile before we agree to follow them. If it's only a one way street and they're not interested in progressive ideas, maybe the time to separate is now so the DLC can join the moderate Republicans and we can begin rebuilding a genuinely progressive Democratic party.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

43. Well, if that were the predominant, "leadership" view in the Democratic

Party, then it would be time for that party to go the way of the Whigs and disappear, and make way for a new, actual opposition, party.

In the short term, it might indeed mean no hope. But it might then be time to wander the desert for a couple of decades.

[Walt Starr]

46. If it's true, then the Republicans will always win

Why go for a cheap imitation when you can have the real deal?

Truman once said that when given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat acting like a Republican, the American people will go with the Republican every time.

[tomg]

47. Well, supposing that the DLC

is right is like supposing that creationists are right or that the moon is made of guacamole. Still, if that is the case, then, yes, we -sorry they, because I would go out the Dem door - only win as Republican Lite - less filling, less fattening, same flautulence. The only good thing about winning as Republican Lite is that they might - might - not waste the rest of the world, at least not immediately.(and with real luck,- the absolutely best case scenario - the rest of the world gets its act together, starts selling package tours, and comes over to watch, sort of like we're Hee Haw land with Granpa Jones as President, and the Congress all those folks in the cornfield - not a slam on the south, only on Tv stereotypes and DLC corporatists.)
Of course Progressives have hope. The Conservative Republicans got where they got not by going to the right of center but to the right of the right, and they started a long time ago (after the 64 Goldwater debacle). The answer is not to go to the center of the center, but to get the Dems to go to the left. The further to the right Progressives let the Dems go, the more license it gives the Conservative Republicans to go further to the right. Don't equate Progressive and Democrat anymore than Republican necessarily equals Conservative, not that anyone is doing that, but in the public mind that is the case. It just takes a hell of a long time.

[greatauntoftriplets]

49. "Winning" as Republican lite is losing.

That means Nader was correct and there is no difference between the parties or their vision for the country.

[stanwyck]

53. succinct and totally correct

thanks, great aunt.
Moving to the squishy middle is losing.

[cascadiance]

51. That is like supposing the sky is colored pink polka dots...

It's a false supposition. Supposing the DLC also represents "the middle" and anyone outside of them in the Democratic Party is "further left" is also a false supposition.

They aren't about representing "the middle". They are about representing corporate interests.

The way that the Dems reclaim their power is to emphasize that they are the voice of the people (as grassroots campaigns would dictate). Now we may grow out of a more progressive agenda than the other party, but that's not to say that we can't reach for moderate *PEOPLE* in the middle. We shouldn't be caught in the trap though of reaching for what the corporations want through advocating the inaction, etc. that the DLC wants us to do. That's what has been failing and alienating a big segment of the voting populace (whether they are the fringe left going to the greens, the middle who've gone to the Perots, those staying home not voting, or somewhere else).

It's about declaring independence from corporate çorruption funding and being corporate whores is what will revitalize the Democratic Party, and make America's Party, not the Corporation Party Light! Once we do that then we can focus on building a platform that the PEOPLE want, not try and compromise what they want with what the corporations want which paralyzes us into being a "do nothing" party, which the Republicans and corporations love!

[Lannes]

52. We wont win as "progressive lite" either

Claiming to be open minded and tolerant of different points of view unlike the republicans,but at the same time trying to purge those from this board who offer a different solution or dont walk in lockstep 24/7. Even though they agree with most views expressed here.Doesnt sound very progressive to me.

[Darranar]

54. It shows that it's time for popular resistance to national policy...

instead of constant worry about elections.

[The Sleeper]

55. Who wants to be a Vichy Democrat ?

Not me, pal.

Lazy and gutless they are, sez I. The stormtroopers spent years reframing the debate as to what this country is about. The basic assumptions about the electorate that the Dems could carry to the bank day in and day out are no longer valid. To survive it's necessary to attack the root of the problem.

[The Stranger]

56. Republican Lite will always, ALWAYS lose to Republican.

If you give people an alternative to Republican and Republican Lite, they will have a target and will get on board.

That and getting some media is what is needed.

[JHB]

57. Suppose you were in Congress. Further suppose that you were an idiot.

But I repeat myself. --- Mark Twain

Why ponder the derivatives of a false assumption?

[lateo]

58. Fuck the DLC

Of course they are going to say that...it is what they want you to believe.