Could there be an Islamic Ghandi figure?

[Kalish]

Someone who would stand up for their people but in a peaceful way that ends up inspiring the entire world?

On Ron Reagan's show today he brought this up. He pointed out how if there was such a figure in the Palestinian movement they could have perhaps already won their own state by now.

A Muslim guest of the show said that such a figure could not arise from Islam as the religion does not have a 'turn the other cheek' philosophy to it, but rather demands that they fight back. Another Muslim said that some Palestinians have tried such resistence, as recently as in Belan, but that such a mindset had not taken firm hold, only scattered attempts.

But could such a leader be possible? Where are those kinds of leaders these days?

[Gato Moteado]

1. they're all in china actually

nt

[wallwriter]

2. CUltures of militarism, extremism and violence become deeply ingrained.

Not because of Islam but because of human nature, I am very skeptical.

[Inland]

3. Interesting......

I'm not sure of the Hindu turn the other cheek tradition, either.

And in chrisitanity, it is not exactly practiced.

But note the conservative, religious, but nimbleminded and dedicated thinkers weaving together old traditions and new justice
eg, MLK, Ghandi.

[Larkspur]

4. Israel kills non-violent protesters also. Just as Rachel Corrie's family

Anyone who opposes Israel's land theft is considered a terrorist by the IDF, Likkudites, and AIPAC regardless if non-violent or violent methods are used.

[judy]

10. So did the British in India

they massacred thousands of non-violent protesters who were only making salt on the beaches.
So?
Non-violence doesn't guarantee that you won't be killed. Sometimes, it might get you killed faster since you don't have a gun.

It only guarantees that when you are killed there won't be too much of a discussion as to whether you deserved to be killed, or whether those that killed you might have to change their ways.

[htuttle]

5. They would have been bombed by a 'smart bomb' long ago

As Nelson Mandella once observed about Ghandi, "Non-violent civil disobedience only works if your oppressor has a conscience."

[H2O Man]

6. Gandhi .........

Gandhi often said that he was, among other things, a Muslim. Can a Muslim play a similar role in the Middle East? Or where? That would be a significant factor. Ho Chi Minh said that if Gandhi were born in Vietnam, the French would have killed him long before he became famous.

[nsd]

7. First, a minor point: the name is spelled "Gandhi"

It would be interesting to see how a civil disobedience campaign would play out. Given the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I would not be at all confident that it would succeed. There has been a lot of violence already, and Israel likely sees the issue as central to its own survival as a state in a way that the British did not with respect to India. These differences make a resolution that much more difficult. Still, it would definitely be interesting to see what disciplined and non-violent civil disobedience could achieve. At the least, it might be the basis (in future) for mutual respect and trust.

It should also be pointed out that the story of Indian independence was bigger and more complex than just Gandhi and non-violence. There were a lot of other players in the nationalist movement, which predated Gandhi's rise to prominence by many years, and the British were responding partly to factors that had nothing to do with Indian nationalism (e.g., the burden of rebuilding after two world wars, their new status in a world being shaped by the Cold War).

[sweetheart]

8. Don't you recognize Ghandi?

He's Pervert Musharraf the terrorist. This incarnation of Ghandi has
been a bit of a disappointment, but he does a great tin pot dictator.

Maybe Ghandi, when he died, turned in to a million little genetic
ghandi's like obi wan kenobe, and when you were born, a little of
Ghandi is in you, and here right *NOW*, as you, the sovereign citizen.

"So Ghandi, what will you do?"

[judy]

9. I think this is a key question,

and I believe that the Palestinian situation is one that would be and could only be solved by a Gandhi type person.

I totally disagree with the Muslim guest. There is nothing in Islam that would stop someone from using the Force of Truth as Gandhi called it (Satyagraha). He himself had a thorough knowledge and understanding of Islam, and hoped until the last minute that Mohammed Ali Jinnah would oppose partition, and join him.

This "turn the other cheek" stuff is as overwrought as the "eye for an eye" stuff. These sayings are often used as soundbites without any regard for the question of what they truly meant when they were uttered. Gandhi believed that everyone is human and everyone can be talked to (kinda like the opposite of Smirky), and made to understand how the problem should be solved.
Gandhi's resolve was unshakable, and his strength was to always do his best to find out where the people's power really was. And true power is never in bombing anyone.

I agree with Ron Reagan 100%!
But Gandhis happen by chance, and if there was to be one in Palestine (after all, they already had one called Jesus...) we would have heard about him/her...There would be massacres of non violent people crossing the wall or check points en masse - the way it happened in India during the Salt campaign in 1942, that eventually lead to Independence in 1947. The Gurkha troops eventually refused to fire on the people.

To have a Gandhi in Israel wouldn't hurt either, come to think of it.

[burythehatchet]

11. Mohandas K. Gandhi is my personal hero, but I must confess

that I doubt his teachings would even be heard today, let alone be effective. Non-violent resistance can only be effective if your opponent has some little seed of honor left. If your opponent is a shameless, sadistic ideology, non-violence is akin to walking into a meat grinder.

[Kalish]

12. woah brother

"shameless, sadistic ideology" - that's going too far, way fucking too far...

[burythehatchet]

15. Huh

You may have mis-read my post. If you did read it properly and you wish to object to neo-conservatism being characterized as a shameless, sadistic ideology, have at it.

[Bouncy Ball]

17. You disagree that neoconservatism is a shameless,

sadistic ideology?

I thought bury was kind of going easy on them!

Do elaborate, please!

[judy]

13. If you read the History of India,

you will realize that the British were quite shameless and sadistic when it came down to repressing Gandhi's non-violent revolution.

However, while the massacres were going on, there were occasions where the troops refused to fire on unarmed people. This is already happening in Israel with the "refuseniks".

I think Gandhi's methods would be as effective now that they were then. It is a common misconception that non-violence means wishy washy, and implies that no one expect to be killed. Find out more about the campaign for Independence in India, and you will see that Gandhi's "weapons" were more powerful than any suicide bomb.

[burythehatchet]

16. I believe I have

a pretty good understanding of the Indian narrative, but thank you for the suggestions.

While non-violence may a common misconception in the white man's mind, trust me when I say that non-violence is one of the greatest and purest form's of courage. I call it enlightened warfare. I also have a very personal connection to this history as my father belonged to the RSS, the fundamentalist political party from which Gandhi's assassin came.

[liberalpragmatist]

20. Your father was RSS?

Sorry, I don't mean to pry. But I have to ask - what do you think about that? How do you view the RSS and their political aims? And what do you make of your father's connection to them?

[burythehatchet]

21. I used to hate it until I realized my father is a true conservative

authoritarian fundamentalist. So of course it makes sense now. I am ashamed of this connection. The RSS is just another fundamentalist group that preys on the anxieties of people who have been disenfranchised because of globalism. My views tend to track pretty closely to Arun Roy and Vandana Shiva

[judy]

24. So in fact,

"While non-violence may a common misconception in the white man's mind, trust me when I say that non-violence is one of the greatest and purest form's of courage. I call it enlightened warfare."

We are in complete agreement!

I can sympathize with your plight, I don't know if it is any comfort, but my mother's family was pro-Hitler (in France) and her first husband was a Prefect of Police for Vichy...
Yuck...

[burythehatchet]

26. I'm sorry to hear that about your ancestors.

My ex-wife's father's family was a prominent industrial family in Alsace. Their fortune was destroyed by the Nazis. In our youth it seems that those connections are only far-off but as we get older we realize how short a time ago this was and it haunts us more.

[judy]

28. Fortunately, my father was Jewish,

and joined the De Gaulle's Free French Forces, and became a decorated war hero as a Spitfire pilot in the RAF.

However, he never recovered psychologically from the bombing of Germany, and seeing civilians run in the gun fire when the spitfires were flying low.

I think that contrary to Smirkology, revenge does not create peace of mind.

[wildflower]

14. I would love to see this

And one here as well.

[ThomWV]

18. How Quickly We Forget

How did Ghandi die?

For a man who you believe inspired the world it would seem his word did not get to everyone, even many quite close.

Now consider the fragmentation of Islam and try to immagine how far a 21st centry Ghandi would get.

[Bouncy Ball]

19. I think it would be great if there were also a Christian

Gandhi figure too!

After all, Christianity DOES have a turn the other cheek philosophy to it, thanks to my man, Jesus!

But I see loads of "Christians" cheering on a war on a country that never did anything to us.

Wow. Doesn't make much sense to this Christian.

[Fescue4u]

22. Yes, but that wouldnt be the Islamic way

The Koran is pretty clear on what it takes to be a good Muslim and Ghandi would be an Infidel.

Its nice thought, but pretty damn unlikely.

[Emendator]

23. Very unlikely

Unfortunately the Islamic religion does not encourage peace. It's very unlikely that such a leader would win widespread support. In the unlikely event that one did come about, the Israelis would never allow him to become prominent.

[Kraklen]

25. ?

[durutti]

27. Badshah Khan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badshah_Khan