Guy on C-Span just said something we should look into, NOW.........

[converted_democrat]

Some guy just called into C-Span he said that he worked for the government in the early 80's. He claims that Roberts was involved in a case of espionage where he covered up and helped destroyed info. The caller said the case was "worse than the Rosenburgs." He said to go look up the date 4/12/84. He also gave the clue that Reagan "never heard about it." He also said that everything was filed in New York, and that a low level Naval officer was made out to be the patsy.(the naval officer was arrested)The guy "sounded" very crediable. I realize he might have been a nut, but what if he's not? Could someone help me check this out? It might be nothing, but than again, it might be a good excuse to make sure Roberts never makes it to the SC.

[Cocoa]

1. if he destroyed the info

how do go we look it up?

[converted_democrat]

2. He said that some of the evidence was destroyed.........

Than he said the court documents should still exsist. They were filed in New York. He also said that there was a low level Naval navy clerk that was made to be the patsy. (The naval officer ws arrested)

[iconoclastic cat]

7. Oh, you know, I heard about that a long time ago.

I remember the story. I have no memory of Roberts' involvement, though.

[hootinholler]

65. 84...

Would that have been Walker? He was a Petty Officer, not a real officer. I also thought that one was in Norfolk.

Just a guess.
-Hoot

[TheDebbieDee]

66. I'm sure he said the the Naval Officer's name was Pollard....

which rung a bell with me.

I'm going to go Google for Pollard.

ETA: found the following Time Magazine article regarding Pollard espionage damage with Pollard's comment regarding the article at
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1993/120693b.htm

TIME Magazine: The Damage of Pollard's Espionage

Chronicle - Inside Washington - December 6, 1993
Transmitted: 93-12-05

As Israel presses the Clinton Administration to free Jonathan Pollard, the former U.S. navy intelligence analyst sentenced on 1986 to life in prison for spying for the Israelis, TIME has learned that one document Pollard is believed to have slipped to the Israelis - thought to have landed in Soviet hands, albeit unintentionally - was a huge national Security Agency compendium of frequencies used by foreign military and intelligence services. Gathering this information cost the U.S. billions of dollars, but Pollard rendered it useless. Officials assume countries that knew their frequencies had been discovered used them for disinformation. Additionally, officials fear the data in the book were so specific that its discovery may have cost informants their lives.

Jonathan Pollard Comments:

This Time magazine article was part of a very carefully orchestrated disinformation campaign that was designed to sabotage Prime Minister Rabin's initial efforts to secure my release. It also reflected the then ongoing effort to blame me - and by extension, Israel - for all the damage later attributed to Aldrich Ames. Of course, if the government had actually possessed any evidence which could have substantiated the claims made in this piece, the prosecutors should have, at the very least, indicted me for having intended to harm the U.S. But that never happened. The fact is, the government did not formally charge me with having compromised either the identities of agents or sensitive communications intelligence, which it could easily have done - assuming, that is, I had actually committed those crimes. So what, exactly, was the real story behind this NSA compendium?

Firstly, I should make it very clear that the document in question was not a "code book". Although the distinction may seem academic, it's critical to understand that I never had access to any cryptographic material. I'm stressing this point because both the "leakers" and the prosecutors have, from time to time, tried to leave the false impression that the compendium was some sort of super secret code-breaking manual which the U.S. never shared with any foreign intelligence service. And that, simply put, was not the case.

More Pollard info at http://www.jonathanpollard.org

[salin]

3. I guess identifying by date

what type of info was allegedly destroyed - and looking for a paper trail.

Pretty big longshot, if true, given the short time frame available.

Sad thing of state of affairs today - a) one can say anything and get air time (make any charges) (this could be fabricated) while b) revelations indicate that behavior behind some administrations make claims of such behavior plausable so one can never discern what is ludicrous and what is not.

Granted one guy's call to cspan certainly isn't anything to go on.

[htuttle]

4. A restaurant near a US air force base in Torrejon, Spain was bombed...

...on 4/12/84. 18 US servicemen were killed, and 83 injured (according to a few sites via google).

:shrug:

[Lerkfish]

5. not yet successful on google. I'll keep trying.

[converted_democrat]

57. I just got something!!!!!!

The date of the case was 4-12-84
The case was US V.S. Data Sob (Erickson Comp)
Data Sop sold a stealth radar system to Russia that tracked our planes by sound em, rendering our tech useless. Data Sop made 70 million in the deal. Roberts argued to reduce the charges down to lesser technology swap charge and give the company a $1 million fine. People were suspect to why he did not want to pursue the case fully. The company got away with a slap on the wrist.
-----
The other case is about a gut by the name of Pollard. Pollard was a Naval clerk, and had no access to the info. It was pinned on him though and he finally said he did it after they arrested his wife. They arrested him on espionage charges (even though that was not the normal way of handling this sort of thing) He was very low level and there was no way he could have gotten a hold of the info. It was pinned on him, but the whole case just does not add up.


In both instances Roberts actions were questionable at best.

[bribri16]

58. Damn! Is there anything that doesn't eventually link to Israel?

This shit is maddening!

[Lerkfish]

60. very interesting!

sorry I had to stop searching and start working! :)

[lostnfound]

63. What do you mean 'the other case'? How was Roberts involved..

in the Pollard case?

FWIW, a little background on spies to Israel and connections to the * administration, mentions Pollard: http://www.counterpunch.org/green02282004.html
* has resurrected many others from this breach and put them in positions of power.

[Why Syzygy]

6. No duh

that Roberts is involved in espionage. Our nation is under attack and they've taken over the Whitehouse. In case you didn't notice.

Espionage to the power of a billion.

[FreedomAngel82]

54. A lot of people Bush has brought in this term

were somehow involved with Reagan. I wouldn't be surprised if Roberts was.

[R Hickey]

8. I heard some of it.

It reminded me of daddy Bush's allowing our selling of US military technology to the Chinese, which went on during his administration, and was covered up by saying "Clinton did it."

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[converted_democrat]

14. Stick to decaf in the morning , dude.

I realize this is a grasp at straws, but at least I'm trying to keep the asshole off the bench. This guy sounded crediable, he knew alot of inside info and the host of C-Span was asking him questions, and sounded really impressed. I'm just saying it's something to look into.

[bryant69]

18. If you realize it is a grasp of straws

Why not do some of your own research figure out what this is all about and then come back and report instead of just throwing it out there?

Let me ask somethin else, if this guy had any thing real, why didn't he just say it? Instead of being elliptical and sneaky? If he really has the dirt I mean.

And I don't drink coffee at all, so no worries there.

[converted_democrat]

20. If you read down the thread another guy heard it too.........

I am very new to the computer, I do not have the reseach skills that many others do on this board, so I was asking for help.
Your people skills leave alot to be desired, I thought perhaps it was the fault of too much coffee. Guess it's just you in all your natural glory.

[bryant69]

26. OK

Perhaps you need to consider this - I was referring to the guy who called into the radio show not you. As far as I know, you didn't make anything up - you reported what you heard on the radio.

And if you don't expect to be challanged when you post stuff, well, maybe a message board isn't really for you.

Bryant

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

30. That's because people are eager to believe evil of Roberts

I think he's a bad guy too - but I'm not going to run after bit of nonsense that comes along. This sounds suspicious to me - if other people believe it, because it plays into what they think about Roberts already, well, that's their right.

And I have a reason for my rudeness - this kind of unthinking acceptance of any vague theory that attacks Republicans pisses me off.

And, to be clear, I like being challanged and debated. And I get plenty of that here.

[converted_democrat]

33. Dude......

I asked for help, not hindrance. Just leave it alone if you don't want to help okay? I have no time for games right now. I'm looking for info, and trying to do some good here. Stop wasting my time, kay?

[bryant69]

34. OK.

I will no longer respond to your posts (after this one naturally), as responding to your posts apparently forces you to respond to mine and wastes your time.

Yeah, I understand the logic there.

[Ian David]

40. He wasn't trying to hinder you. We're all on the same side here

There may or may not be something to this.

Sometimes, "helping" also means telling someone to let it go.

If someone asked me to help them research whether they could walk through solid walls, I don't think I would be hindering them if I said, "Stop that before you give yourself a concussion."

In any case, let's see if we can find anything to validate this, but please be prepared to drop it if it turns out to be false.

Let's look into it, with an open mind-- not with a pre-determined conclusion. But prepared to move on if it's a dead end.

:grouphug:

[SpiralHawk]

67. Don't let it go at all, until its fully checked out.

I feel you did absolutely the right thing in asking for help. And you got some -- some more substantive clues that suggest this really is worth looking into.

In my view, this is exactly what DU is about -- adding layers of fact and opinion, and using the team of competent researchers that is the DU community. Lots of people try to disrupt this normal and healthy kind of on-line communication. One can only speculate about their motivation.


Ignore the naysayers. They are in every walk of life.

[converted_democrat]

45. Just wondering, why did you remove your link to your blog???

I took the time to read it. I'm sure other Dems would like to read it too. The other fellow below me made a referance to it too. Why did you erase the link?

http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/

http://www.blogger.com/profile/962102

[bryant69]

46. The message was deleted by the moderators

I guess, like the original poster, they assumed that I meant that comment "the golden age of making sh*t up" to refer to the original poster.

Whatever.

Anyway thanks for reposting it.

[Ian David]

43. Bryant and Converted_Democrat... come on, guys. Hug and make up, ok?

We're all on the same side here.

I think Converted is being sufficiently skeptical, and Bryant is being sufficiently supportive and open-minded (and skeptical).

[Why Syzygy]

15. Man.

every time I try to read something written by wingers it just fucks with my head. I can't do it.

Thanks for the link and all, but. I wonder where the path leads from here.

How do you make peace with people who are totally vacant on the upper level? I hope some of you can. My brain can't take it.

[sam sarrha]

10. Roberts was inside the Iran Contra. missiles 4 $$ 4 guns 4 cocaine 4 $$$$

they gave shoulder fired missiles to a terrorist country for money, bought weapons from East Germany, and traded them for cocaine from terrorists murdering civilians peasants in Nicagura..

then used the cocaine to create a 90+ Billion dollar prison industry, the largest in the world.

and Roberts was one of the insiders planning it, Bu$h wont give any files from the Iran Contra era.. and we are being obstructionists..??!!

[converted_democrat]

27. I this guy "says" that there was a low level naval officer that was made

to be a patsy, and that there should be court papers in New York. How does one look up court files from that time, without going to New York?

[Sanity Claws]

64. They're probably stored somewhere else

After a certain amount of time, the files are closed and sent to archiving. It takes a while to retrieve them.

[donsu]

48. kick

nt

[Tsiyu]

11. Found this

Scroll down to text:

Hizballah Restaurant Bombing, April 12, 1984:
Eighteen U.S. servicemen were killed, and 83 people were injured in a bomb
attack on a restaurant near a U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain.
Responsibility was claimed by Hizballah.

Also above in thread, but here's the link:

http://www.globalspecialoperations.com/terchron.html

Have no idea what this site is, but it links chronology of terrorist attacks. This same date came up on many sites. I just clicked on this one first

[Why Syzygy]

21. thank you

Hizzballah. How appropriate. Both ends agains the middle.

Who will stop these madmen? I'm about ready to blow. But won't give them the satisfaction.

[Ian David]

42. I don't think Hizballah bombing has any connection other than the date

I found the same link, too.

I'm almost certain the date is a coincidence.

Maybe look into it, but don't spend too much time on that angle.

I suggest trying to connect one of those espionage incidents to the April 12th date, not the Hizballah bombing.

[Tsiyu]

47. Yeah, I found the second link also, referring to

espionage, but it had already been posted. It does seem more in tune with the "clues" the caller offered.

I wouldn't waste a WHOLE lot of time on this endeavor, but a little sniffing around can't hurt.

[PATRICK]

12. What exactly KIND of event is he talking about?

WAPO had an article about death squads in the Philippines(pro-Marcos). The NYT archives has an articles about accused citizen spies being released but I have no subscription access to the article online.

This is so vague I have no clue what he is even alluding to.

[PATRICK]

17. OK if it is Iran Contra

the best you can hope fore is probably the Walsh report. I have no doubt the first qualification of this guy is being a solid Bush loyalist black bagger who is there to deliver for team Bush first last and always. SCOTUS picks always represented the ideological and balance issues of the POTUS but few were actually posed to be personal non-independent instrumental hacks. This is a BIG exception. Even Rehnquist was not part of the Nixon team from what dean says about the process.

[flyarm]

41. i remember a plane crashing full of drugs that was involved with

iran contra...the plane was coming to the states but it crashed in a jungle..dang i wish i could remember all the facts...it was smuggling drugs to the usa..in exchange for the arms...to the contras...
i remember the incident ..but not the details...the pilot survived...
but it was brushed under the rug...

[SpiralHawk]

68. Hasenfus?

Gonna check it out.

OK, here's a Salon article:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/10/25/contra/index_np.html

How John Kerry exposed the Contra-cocaine scandal
Derided by the mainstream press and taking on Reagan at the height of his popularity, the freshman senator battled to reveal one of America's ugliest foreign policy secrets.

Hmmm Here's anothe link
http://www.american-buddha.com/unauthor.bio.bush.18.1.htm

The Scandal Breaks--On George Bush

October 5, 1986: A C-123k cargo aircraft left El Salvador's Ilopango air base at 9:30 A.M., carrying `` 10,000 pounds of small arms and ammunition, consisting mainly of AK rifles and AK ammunition, hand grenades, jungle boots. '' It was scheduled to make air drops to Contra soldiers in Nicaragua.@s7@s1 The flight had been organized by elements of the CIA, the Defense Department, and the National Security Council, coordinated by the Office of Vice President George Bush. At that time, such arms resupply was prohibited under U.S. law--prohibited by legislation which had been written to prevent precisely that type of flight. The aircraft headed south along the Pacific coast of Nicaragua, turned east over Costa Rica, then headed up north into Nicaraguan air space. As it descended toward the point at which it was to drop the cargo, the plane was hit in the right engine and wing by a ground-to-air missile. The wing burst into flames and broke up. Cargo handler Eugene Hasenfus jumped out the left cargo door and opened his parachute. The other three crew members died in the crash.@s7@s2 Meanwhile, Felix Rodriguez made a single telephone call--to the office of Vice President George Bush. He told Bush aide Samuel Watson that the C-123k aircraft was missing and was possibly down.

October 6, 1986: Eugene Hasenfus, armed only with a pistol, took refuge in a small hut on a jungle hilltop inside Nicaragua. He was soon surrounded by Sandinista soldiers and gave himself up. Felix Rodriguez called George Bush's aide Sam Watson again. Watson now notified the White House Situation Room and the National Security Council staff about the missing aircraft.

Oliver North was immediately dispatched to El Salvador to prevent publicity over the event, and to arrange death benefits for the crew.

eom

[PATRICK]

69. Well blaming Roberts

for crimes swept under the stupid Congressional immunity blanket is certainly not going to be the shattering issue it should be. He could have butchered people personally and be protected by the simple lack of prosecution of the major players.

[converted_democrat]

23. I'm not sure......

He said it was espionage worse that the Rosenburgs and that a low level naval officer was arrested. He gave the date 4/12/84 and said the court papers were filed in New York.

[donsu]

50. yes, I heard the caller too and assumed people would be checking

it out

[Divernan]

13. Reagan never heard about anything not included in his daily script.

prepared by his handlers. His cabinet meetings were fully scripted - not just what he said, but what the cabinet members were allowed to say also. So it would have been quite simple to keep him in the dark about many things.

[Why Syzygy]

25. that sounds

pretty much anal retentive.

You know. Ronny served when we needed a poster boy. Of course he destroyed taxation and the construction industry while he was posing. But we move on.

Thanks for the insight into another berzok's head.

[KittyWampus]

16. what exactly was Roberts doing in 84? where's his biography?

[Obamarama]

36. He worked as an aide to White House Counsel Fred Fielding eom

[Skidmore]

19. There's a reason why this man with no history has been

so richly rewarded. No one advances in *world without having been "made" in some way.

[Ian David]

22. Could it be one of these?

CAVANAGH, THOMAS PATRICK, an engineering specialist for Northrop Corporation’s Advanced Systems Division holding a Secret clearance, was arrested on 18 December 1984 and charged with attempting to sell to the Soviets classified documents on Stealth aircraft technology . It is reported that Cavanagh's attempt to arrange a meeting with a Soviet official by contacting the Soviet Embassy from a pay phone was intercepted. In this call he proposed a meeting in a bar near Los Angeles International Airport where a deal could be negotiated. He was met by FBI undercover agents posing as Soviet representatives. Cavanagh told the agents that the documents and blueprints he had taken from the firm were of highest value to the United States and that “once they were in the hands of the Soviets, they would save them billions.” During a subsequent meeting, agents provided the $25,000 demanded for classified documents, and made the arrest. Cavanagh, recently separated from his wife, faced mounting financial difficulties and feared that he was being denied a Top Secret clearance because of indebtedness. Agents found more than 30 past due notices from creditors at his residence showing a total indebtedness of over $25,000. Despite Cavanagh’s efforts, it is reported that no serious compromise occurred. According to the prosecuting attorney, had Cavanagh been successful, he would have “gutted” the Stealth Bomber project. Cavanagh pleaded guilty to two counts of espionage and on 23 May 1985 was sentenced to two concurrent life terms in prison.

New York Times, 19 Dec 1984, “Engineer is Held in Scheme to Sell Secrets”
Washington Post, 22 Dec 1984, “Engineer in Secrets Case is Held Without Bail”
DoD Security Institute, Security Awareness Bulletin, Dec 1985, Number 1-86, “Portrait of an Uneasy Spy”
San Francisco Examiner, 21 June 1987, “Traitor in Our Midst”


<snip>

MORISON, SAMUEL LORING, a civilian analyst with the Office of Naval Intelligence, was arrested 1 October 1984 for supplying Jane's Publications with classified photography showing a Soviet nuclear powered carrier under construction. The photographs were subsequently published in Jane's Defence Weekly (July 1984). Morison, described as a heavy spender and unhappy with his Navy Department job, had been employed by Jane's as a part-time contributor. A search of his apartment turned up two portions of Navy documents marked Secret. On 17 October 1985, after a seven-day trial, Morison became the first individual convicted under the 1917 Espionage Code for unauthorized disclosure to the press. Also convicted of theft of government property, Morison was sentenced to two years’ imprisonment on 4 December 1985. The decision was appealed, and in April 1988 the conviction was upheld by the 4th US Circuit Court of Appeals. In October 1988 the Supreme Court declined to hear the case, thus endorsing the use of the espionage code for prosecuting cases of unauthorized disclosure.

Washington Post, 3 Oct 1984, “Navy Analyst Arrested in Photo Sale”
Washington Post, 29 Oct 1984, “Unlikely Espionage Suspect”
Washington Post, 18 Oct 1985, “Morison Guilty of Spying, Stealing Documents”
New York Times, 8 Oct 1984, “Disclosing Secrets to the Press...”

<snip>

WOLFF, JAY CLYDE, 24-year-old auto painter and former Navy enlisted man, was arrested on 17 December 1984 in Gallup, New Mexico, for offering to sell classified documents dealing with US weapons systems aboard a US Navy vessel. Wolff, who was discharged from the Navy in 1983, met with an undercover agent and offered to sell classified material for $5,000 to $6,000. According to the FBI, a tip led to the meeting with Wolff at a convenience store where he was apprehended. Wolff pleaded guilty to one count of attempting to sell classified documents and on 28 June 1985 the former service member was sentenced to five years in prison.

More:
http://www.dss.mil/training/espionage/1984.htm



Also:

Navy 1978 - 1984
http://www.dss.mil/training/espionage/Navy3.htm

[converted_democrat]

29. I think your on to something n/t

I wonder which one it is. I edited my post, because it could be any of those, but it's a good place to start.

[htuttle]

32. Possible motivation for covering it up

If the Stealth project had been known to be compromised back then, they might have cancelled or changed it enough to cost Northrup and Lockheed many billions of dollars in lost profits.

[converted_democrat]

35. Thank you for the links..........

I'm going to spend the day looking them up. Thank you so much for your help. I'll let you know if it turns something up. Thank you, so much for all your help!!!

[converted_democrat]

55. Here's a link to all the espionage cases from 75' to 04'..........

http://www.eyespymag.com/spylistmain2.htm

[Obamarama]

24. "Bell Discusses Possible Helicopter Sale to Iraq," April 12, 1984.

Grasping at straws here, but found this item. Not sure how/if it could be tied to Roberts... Interesting reading nonetheless.

The U.S. interests section in Baghdad asks to be kept apprised of developments in ongoing talks between Iraq and Bell Helicopter Textron about its sale of helicopters to Iraq's Ministry of Defense that "can not be in any way configured for military use."

Link to classified memo (now declassified)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq55.pdf

[htuttle]

31. Looks like those helicopters were used to put down the Shia uprising

...in Karbala (an incident which was ironically used by the Bush admin to demonize Hussein this time around).

Here's a 2002 link with more about those helicopters (which were apparently all transfered to Iraq's military, btw):
http://cityofbrass.blogspot.com/2002/10/hawks.html

[converted_democrat]

37. Thank you for all the links!!!!!

I'm going to spend the day looking them all up. Thank you!!

[napi21]

38. I heard the guy on cspan too. It was obvious that he was a lawyer

and said he was hired to work on this case. He mentioned the stealth technology being sold, and that it tracked the stealth aircraft by the engine noise which would have made the secret aircraft that were being developed at that time ineffective. He also mentioned Ollie North associated with the doc shredding, and when he asked him about shredding, the response was why would they give me a shredder if that's not what they wanted.

I think you can watch a video on the Washington Journal on the cspan site, but I'm not sure how quickly they post them after the show is over.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

51. "it tracked the stealth aircraft by the engine noise"

Now THAT is laughable.

[NancyG]

52. Definitely possible re tracking by engine noise

A person I know was in Intelligence in VietNam. He has talked about a technology that the US had that could tell what vehicle was passing by by the sound of the engine. Seems every engine has its own telltale signature. That way they knew what specific vehicle was coming. It was way top secret at the time.

This guy had a higher clearing than Macnamara.

[converted_democrat]

39. Thanks guys for all your help, I'm going to spend the day looking all this

stuff up!!!! Keep your fingers crossed, I hope I find something good!!!!!!

[napi21]

56. Cspan now has the video of today's WJ on their site.

If you want to listen to the actual phone call we're talking about on this thread, here's the link.

http://www.c-span.org/homepage.asp?Cat=Series&Code=WJE&ShowVidNum=9&Rot_Cat_CD=WJ&Rot_HT=206&Rot_WD=&ShowVidDays=100&ShowVidDesc=&ArchiveDays=30

[blm]

44. It confirms my belief that Poppy Bush kept Reagan out of the loop ALOT.

No wonder the Reagan family loathes the Bushes. Poppy was running most of the criminal operations behind Reagan's back, but history will also taint Reagan for Bush's crimes.

[lildreamer316]

49. Somebody push this on to Randi & etc. n/t

[grumpy old fart]

59. Randi hates conspiracy theories...

Says there so much factual, easy, obvious corruption out there that tin hat stuff just muddies the picture. I agree.

[converted_democrat]

61. It isn't a theory check out #57........

He has has been involved in some very questionable espionage cases.

[grumpy old fart]

62. Hmm, what was Roberts' links to these cases? Post doesn't say.....

and no links to the sources.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. I think he's telling the truth

I have heard that he was involved in the Iran/Contra ordeal.