What's better? A moral Atheist or a Theist hypocrite?

[booley]

This is not mean to flame or bash any belief system. But it is something I would like responses for. Especially from those who believe in a divinity. Which doesn't just include Christians.

But I was reading over another thread ..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4233487&mesg_id=4233682

...and I had a thought..

I remember something I once heard..if there is a God and that God has a plan for the Universe, who's to say Atheists aren't a part of that plan?

So what about Atheists who do God's (or the Gods') work? By this I mean, Liberal theists (especially Liberal Christians) often say that God wants us to take care of the needy, protect the helpless, and try to make the world a better place.

I have seen Atheists who doing this.

But at the same time, they most certainly do not do so out of any belief that God wants them too or that there even is a God. They still have reasons for doing what they do, but it's not any kind of Bible or religious mandate.

Compare that to say, the Theo-cons as exemplified by Shrub.

They give constant platitudes to God. They insist that God be given credit for everything that happens and demand we all submit to laws they believe are divinely inspired. Theo cons most certainly DO believe in a God. Even simply not acknowledging God is the same as attacking God.

But they are also pro-war, callous towards those that are needy or helpless, think any progress towards a better world is impossible and even immoral, do not love their neighbor as themselves and indeed, seem to have a lot of hatred for certain groups (or at least perform actions that harmful to said groups..like gays and outlawing gay marriage). But they say they claim they do this because they believe in God. And I have no doubt they do believe in a God.

So lets say there is a God. And that God does reward people in the afterlife for the life they had on Earth. (IE, that theists are right in this one regard, hypothetically)

Who's to say that there aren't Atheists in Heaven and a lot of Christians..someplace else? (I am not going to say hell because the idea of permanent damnation always seemed counter productive)

Just a thought.

[phantom power]

1. Dante says....

the moral atheist gets to reside in the most pleasant, outer circle of hell, the circle of Virtuous Pagans.

The hypocrites are condemned to much lower circles of hell. Religeous hypocrites are encased in hot lead statues, forced to walk endlessly. The lead is painted gold.

[annabanana]

3. I'm with Dante, relatively speaking..

(not a big believer in the heaven/hell dichotomy..)

[TimeChaser]

20. And traitors are the worst of all

[Name removed]

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[manic expression]

4. Please

anyone who says someone is a weak-minded fool for personal and valid beliefs is worse.

I don't care what someone believes, as long as they are an all around good person.

[Name removed]

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[Guaranteed]

45. I was strong enough to

devote a good portion of my life to addressing these issues and accept the limitations of human knowledge when they were shown to me. Not only that, but I was strong enough in character to maintain a positive outlook on life even when confronted with those limitations.

We're all confronted with the same epistemological problems. It's just a matter of how you deal with them. That's where the character- and strength- comes in.

[Name removed]

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[sweetheart]

52. Your framing is a bit rude

This person is not your enemy, yet you insult him with
banal presumption.

It looks like you feel threatened, and insult your partner in
discussion to elevate yourself.

Putting a religous person down is: "whatever you need to "feel" good about yourself".

It is painful irony, and rudeness loses the moral high ground.

Even in secular argument, civility is becoming.

[Name removed]

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[sweetheart]

58. No matter your comments

You have lost the moral authority in this argument. You are raving,
like in the film "exorcist 3".

Ending your decisive volly with insulting name calling is good flaming
behaviour, and it feels good to be righteous, doesn't it. The
endorphine rush on saying that is same as for the preacher who passes
judgement on all "libruls".

Our culture has failed to produce a wholistic acceptance of all
life as foundation to knowledge. Fundamental to knowledge of olde, was
that all views were reconciled in to the complexity. It seems these
days, that people just stay on channel 284912 and argue that television
channel whilst others stay on channel 11882. .. and never the two
shall touch, in the postmodernist utopia of total social breakdown,
where everyone spits and slings mud at every other television station,
to dream of unity is just a fanciful passing for "weak minded fools."

[queeg]

59. thats nice

too bad it makes no sense whatsoever.

[Swamp Rat]

61. nihilism

:D

[queeg]

73. Perfection of society requires nihilism

put that in your pipe and smoke it---ace

[Swamp Rat]

75. I don't smoke bull shit - Einstein

[Ariana Celeste]

95. Yes, perfection.

Everybody marching in lockstep. No creativity, no new ideas. Just everybody going about their days in a cold sterile world.

Sounds peachy.

[Sparkman]

68. Someday take a look at the list of believers, famous minds, in science and

in leadership. Many are not weak or feeble people, having accomplished more than you or I could ever hope to, and having endured more than, hopefully, either of us will ever have to endure. Immaturity can linger in the most mature physiology. Persecution has no religious boundaries, and xenophobia extends to bigotry against race, religion and ethnicity.

[toddaa]

98. A Zealot

A zealot is someone who believes that they have an intimate knowledge of the truth and anyone who does not believe as the they do, is ignorant (or weak minded).

There's a big difference between objective reality and your subjective perception of reality. As Nietzsche so aptly put it, "There are no facts, only interpretations."

As for myself, I steer a very wide path around loony tune fundies who are quite adament that they possess the Truth.

[deadparrot]

31. Well said, BGL.

I'm hesitant to attach myself to one religion, but I do believe in a high power(s).

IMO, anytime you let religion (or lack thereof) become so important to your opinion of humanity that it seriously prejudices you against someone, it's dangerous.

[DIKB]

7. While I'm an agnostic

and technically agree with you. You are being a bit harsh. It automatically puts people on the defensive when you call them "weak minded fools"

It's always more palatable in my opinion to let people know that the idea of a "Loving Father" roasting his children in hell for eternity for choosing the wrong religion, when that choice was based primarily on where they were born, is neither fair nor loving.

When I'm around others of like mind, I will speak freely of my opinion on how ridiculous "Faith" is. In mixed company, I try to be more polite and try not to ridicule their beliefs.

[Deja Q]

10. Not that I can argue your sentiment, but you are being harsh.

I do believe Jesus tried to save us. Butthe Romans saw to that quick enough...

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. Thanks. Much appreciated.

[Guaranteed]

14. Really? Have you gone over all of the arguments? nt

[Name removed]

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[Guaranteed]

21. Well, to begin with, you didn't say Christians.

You said people who believe in god (note the lowercase "g," even).

Secondly, even if you were talking about just Christians, a blanket statement like that would still be wrong.

Thirdly, there are TONS of arguments out there for the existence of "a god." If you want to pass judgment on the intelligence of those who might believe one of them, or even be inclined to believe one, combined with some faith, you should look them over and test your own mind first.

[manic expression]

23. Why are you so obsessed with one religion?

Are you aware of the many religions which do not believe ANYTHING that you are saying? So you have a problem with Christianity. Fair enough, what about the numerous other religions?

Also, it is easy to understand the "supernatural" through knowledge. Using logic, if one sees smoke, one can assume there is a fire. It is the same with religion.

[Name removed]

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[manic expression]

26. If one sees morons,

one can assume there is a flaw in their reasoning. Intelligence is not confined to or excluded from any group.

[queeg]

28. like I said---

You keep praying for the sun to come up tomorrow, and that's fine with me, just don't wake me up in the morning to see how well you did.

[manic expression]

29. The sun's 'return'

is inevitable. Night comes, morning comes. This is the way of the world. Praying for this cycle is not wrong, for it recognizes what it gives us. Just as the sun has given to the Earth, it will also take, and it will not be around forever. However, life will begin again.

To pray for what gives us the means to live is good, and to be grateful for that source's continued existence is not bad either. Nature will take its course, as it always does, but prayer recognizes this and effects this.

(Sorry if that's jumbled)

[queeg]

30. HUH?

this is one of the problems of religionists --- somehow they fail to understand that reality is all the stuff that doesn't care if we "believe" in it.

you just go right on and keep praying for the sun to come up and reading livers and throwing bones or what not, just keep me out of it. and keep the Government out of it.

[manic expression]

34. Yeah, I pray 'cause I want it to care

:eyes:

Reality is all the stuff. Period. Believe in it or not, it remains the same. What is there to care if I believe in it? I believe in the higher being of all things, does this care if I believe in it? Do I care if it cares? Who cares about caring?

Praying for the sun and recognizing what it gives us is different than what you're saying. I also never implicated government, and I'll be the first one to protest religion and government's mingling.

[Guaranteed]

35. You see, queeg is so in tune with reality that

he has no appreciation for it.

[manic expression]

37. Great point n/t

[queeg]

38. Don't need to appreciate it.

don't even need to care about it.

[sweetheart]

42. When the ego learns humility

Then it realizes its mortality, and how precious every single day is,
how precious life is. The ego thinks its immortal, and behaves as such,
pretending that the reality of its death is not pending.

It is flippant, uncaring and focused on "me".
Love is mysterious, strangely caring and focused outside "me".

Oil and water don't mix, the ego will never become love. The ego
must realize its mortality and become humble, a servant of the soul
instead of its master.

All of the bible, the fall of man and the garden of eden, is not a
parable outside of this moment. Rather, all of those states of
existance exist on earth in parallel right now. Many have fallen, and
are bound in their egos, unhumble, angry and ultimately feeling cheated
of god's company. They are attached to "me" and the vices of the
senses. This is pretty much foundation teaching in any world religion.

This craving about "me" is suffering, and is based on attachment to the
desires of sense experience.

Jesus christ represents, in this moment, the forgiveness of the ego
and its absolution with love, when your dearest love caresses and
loves you that you forget your raving for the arms of your mother.

Buddhists believe, that every person on earth, in one lifetime or
another, was their mother. It is a sort of idealism, to breed
reverence for whomever you meet in life, that all of us suffer for
our egotism, and in a life of fallen persons (sinners), there is
ego, and its ravings.

And in every moment, we walk the razor's edge, between humble
awareness of how mangificent all of life is, between wonder and love,
awake in every moment to the mysterious profundity, or we are bound
and chained by our need to control and reflect on life as a
definition and manifestion of our selves, like dogs pissing on
fenceposts.

[Name removed]

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[sweetheart]

44. twas a go

Its like partisan politics, its its own meme, your philosophy, and not
the meme that others here are arguing. Yet, all the memes are memes of
egos wanting truth to be their way, and maybe those egos are wrong.

Its hard to write this philosophical stuff, best i stick to basic
political writing. Its more grounded. Who cares about theology anyway,
process theology, or any common ground between religions... its the
least interesting subject in the universe, because it does have in it
a rich kernel of truth.

[Guaranteed]

47. I thought it was brilliant.

It was beautiful.

[sweetheart]

51. Thank you

you are very kind

:toast:

[manic expression]

66. sweetheart,

what religion/school of thought do you "prescribe" to (if any at all)? I'm just wondering.

[sweetheart]

76. I'm a tantric mystical tibetan zen buddhist gnostic pagan

The closest genre in western theology (IMO), is "process theology":

http://www.process-theology.org/
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1489

For anyone curious about living enlightened persons with profound
awakening, i would recomment a visit with:
www.gangaji.org

She's an enlightened woman, the real deal...

:-)

I believe that all persons have enlightenment inside their awareness,
and that the purpose of our being here on earth is to awaken to that.

[manic expression]

77. OK, thanks

I was just wondering.

I thought our ideas were pretty close. I'm a Hindu myself, so I think there's a real connection between the two.

Thanks again!

[sweetheart]

84. Hindu!!!!

I so figure i'm talking to people who've only read the bible!!!!

In hindu terms: I'm Shiivite nondualistic vedanta.... more of the
school of ramana maharshi, ramakrishna of dakineswar, HRW poonjaji of
lucknow, and his devotee gangaji of ashland oregon.

Our ideas are coming from the same roots indeed. The fingers of
god (world religions) are connected on the universal hand... (hindu
analogy i always loved).

Chapter 11 of the bhagavad gita is one of my favourite chapters in all
of world literature.... profound it is, especially in the context of
the mahabharata and the gray complexity of enlightenment.

Om Namah Shiva Ram
Jaya Jaya Shiva Ram
Om Namah Shiva Ram
Jaya Jaya Shiva Ram
Hare Hare
Krishna Krishna

:hug:

[manic expression]

93. Ji namaste!

It's great to find another like-minded person here. It amazes me that so many different philosophies, religions and thinkers truly find the same thing in the end. The Indian proverb of the four blind men and the elephant definitely comes to mind.

The Mandir I go to is Shakta (Durga is the main deity), so I guess you could call me Shakta as well; although I haven't really found a sect to call my own (wasn't born into any).

I've heard Shiivites are much more liberal in their beliefs and practices than, Vaishnavites, for example. Do you think this is true?

Here's one of my favorite passages (from The Upanishads):
"As an eagle, weary after soaring in the sky, folds its wings and flies down to rest in its nest, so does the shining Self enter the state of dreamless sleep, where one is freed from all desires.

The Self is free from desire, free from evil, free from fear."

Jai Ma!

:hug:

[sweetheart]

96. Shiva

Shiivites are radical in their ruthless acceptance of the destroyer of
illusion as the baisis of our lives.

I've been these last years on the path of jnana yoga, of merciless
truth telling as a way to strip and expose the ego. On DU, this can be
both a weapon and a tool of enlightenment depending on where my soul
is at with truth.

"Tat tvam asi." Many translate the sanskrit as "thou art that".

I think it a core deviation between cultures where rene descarte proposes
"cogito ergo sum" (i think therefor i exist) which i believe is a mistake...
and were he more honest it would read "Sum ergo cogito" (I exist
therefore I think). In this conundrum, methinks is the delusion of
western knowledge so well described.

:-) Jai Rama

[manic expression]

97. Jnana Yoga?

I've heard this is VERY rigorous. Do you think it is difficult?

I definitely agree that "I exist therefore I think" is correct. One can abhor all forms of thinking, and exist; one can cease to live, and exist. Existence is eternal throughout and within everything.

Perhaps it doesn't really matter all too much in the end, for as long as we recognize that we exist, and that all things exist, that truth is above all.

Shanti Shanti Shanti Om :)

[sweetheart]

79. hands of one sound clapping

Replied just below to you...

:-)

[manic expression]

65. Just because you can't understand

something of meaning and value, doesn't mean its worthless. I think you need to THINK about it, and then you might learn something (not a very good response, by the way).

[Swamp Rat]

69. That would require a miracle!

:D

[Name removed]

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[manic expression]

82. What a pathetic defense

Ignorant is what you meant and don't try denying that. It is synonymous with "feeble and weak-minded", so don't play that game with me.

If you don't think about something, you won't know if you're right or wrong; you won't know anything about it other than your narrow mindset. That is ignorance.

If you refuse to think, the truths of the universe, truths that can be found in religion (or through another medium), will remain unknown to you.

[Name removed]

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[Ariana Celeste]

89. Who are you trying to convince here?

weak and feeble-minded
weak and feeble-minded
weak and feeble-minded
weak and feeble-minded
weak and feeble-minded

Republican!

Do you really believe what you are saying?

On edit: reminds me of duck duck goose back in elementary school. :)

[queeg]

91. I don't have to "convince" anyone

facts are facts. no need to "convince" anyone of a fact.

[manic expression]

64. Don't NEED to, but I do

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

[Ariana Celeste]

36. Why the rudeness?

I'm an Atheist. I don't believe in God. I think there is a possibility Jesus was a real man, just a man, with a good heart, and a lot of good things to say. I respect the red print. And I respect people's faith and views on the world. I may not agree with others, but we are all different. I appreciate diversity. Nobody will ever learn anything new if everybody thinks the same.
You can disagree with a person and remain civil. It's actually quite easy.
If you are confident in your stance, confident in your views, you will have no reason to attack another's views.



As to the OP- I don't believe in Heaven and Hell but I will take a moral/good hearted person of any belief over a hypocrite any day. You will find hypocrites and assholes in every color, every faith, every belief system, etc. Somebody posted scripture to answer your question- there you have it. If a loving God exists I doubt He/She/It would be overly concerned about who/what they believe in and more concerned about how they chose to go through life.

[Name removed]

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[Ariana Celeste]

46. Then you are no better than

evangelical believers in creationism that seek to force those beliefs on children.

I see utter disrespect on both sides. They will attack all who don't believe as they do; you will attack all who don't believe as you do.

For society to progress, move forward, it doesn't matter what people believe in regards to personal faith. What matters is that people can put aside their differences and work together towards a common goal.

And that means everybody, believers and non-believers, not just one side.

Just because you don't like the messenger doesn't mean the message is completely wrong. The golden rule is something that, if everybody followed, would make this world a better place to live in.

There are Atheists who follow this rule; there are Christians who do so also- and there are many people of many other faiths who do as well. There are also many people who don't. That is people of all types.

Everybody has a weakness. Everybody. Or are you the only perfect human, giving you the right to judge everybody else for what you percieve to be weak, wrong, whatever. I have a feeling you have your own weaknesses as well.

I don't judge people by what they believe in. I look at their actions, and how they treat others. Are they respectful? Do they show compassion? Or are they holier-than-thou, and too egocentric to care for anyone else's needs?

I wouldn't call you an asshole. I would call you disrespectful towards your fellow man- and in your own way a detriment to the progress of society.

[queeg]

53. "Then you are no better than"

.....that seek to force those beliefs on children---fine you go ahead an equate "belief" in magic to reality

Just because you don't like the messenger doesn't mean the message is completely wrong---here you are wrong --the message is wrong period. nothing good comes of a "belief" in magic

giving you the right to judge everybody else for what you percieve to be weak, wrong, whatever---sorry this is one of those issues with no gray middle---can't get out of it with weasly thought. you are either a believer in "supernatural magic" or you are willing to understand that perhaps there is still science to learn.

I don't judge people by what they believe in.--- I do. people are either weak and easily led or not

I have a feeling you have your own weaknesses as well. my weaknesses do not need "supernatural magic", and do not require me to perform abolutions. I get to watch car races on sunday and I can eat fish on fridays without having to think about it. I get to eat bacon, and I can shove a cow out of the street without worrying that I might be related to it.

[Ariana Celeste]

60. Well, then.

I think you have demonstrated how hateful and narrowminded you are.

Good luck in life, I'm sure your attitude will take you far.

[Name removed]

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[Ariana Celeste]

90. Spoken like a true extremist.

[Swamp Rat]

92. AHA! So you REALLY are here to PREACH! ... HAHAHA!!! ... GOTCHA!!!

:rofl:

It's all just fun and games, right Einstein?

[Name removed]

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[Swamp Rat]

101. I'm still hungry and you are still here...

:9 Let me get some cayenne pepper to make this go down better. :D

[queeg]

103. see my final post at the end

nt

[Ariana Celeste]

74. You see that, too eh?

Glad I'm not alone.

[Swamp Rat]

81. HAHAHAHA!!!! Now I'm a republican!

What power of dominion!!! :rofl:

Never put nihilists in a room together! The smaller ones get eaten real fast! :D

[Ariana Celeste]

83. Well then at least we know

there's one good Republican out there. ;)

I think I missed the part were respectful people who can empathize with others were Republican.

[Swamp Rat]

87. I gotta save this thread now, before the deletions.

:D

[Zhade]

48. This atheist disagrees.

Now, if you were to say "anyone who insists that their belief is factually true, without any supporting independent evidence whatsoever to back up that assertion, is a weak-minded fool", I'd agree with you completely.

I've known many believers who are clearly not fools. It's only when a believer demands that something for which there is zero proof is true and actually happened that they start looking kinda foolish.

[Ariana Celeste]

50. Well said.

:hi:

[Zhade]

54. Thanks!

I truly have nothing against believers - they are free to believe whatever they want. I do not feel threatened by anyone's beliefs, only possibly their actions, should those actions be hostile.

I do get bent out of shape when believers claim certain things to be, er, the "gospel truth", all based on their belief system. I mean, I can see the parable in the alleged resurrection of a purported savior, but to claim it factually happened, and insist this is the literal truth, without any evidence, is laughable to me - and still, I am not threatened by the concept of the resurrection, only mystified that so many would accept it as fact when it hasn't ever been proven to have happened.

As long as believers don't attempt to legislate their beliefs into law, I could really care less what they believe. What they posit as factual without evidence, however, will always be debated, and rightfully so.

Anyway, :hi: back at ya!

[Ariana Celeste]

57. No problem :D

I used to have a big problem with believers. I would debate (read: argue til I was red in the face) every chance I could get. I had a real stick up my ass because of how I was treated by my Evangelical uncle.

Took a little time... but I realized I was being just as bad as my uncle was towards me.

I want religion out of our government but have no issue with it being a part of a person's life. As long as they keep it out of mine- I can discuss religious issues with respectful people. Like my little Southern Baptist grandmother. She is just the sweetest lady, and says all the time that "nobody should wear their religion on their sleeve, and Grandpa didn't fight in WW2 for religion to get all mixed up with politics." Just love that woman to death. She can rant like no other. :D

[Name removed]

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[Zhade]

94. I'm quite aware of how many facts disprove their beliefs.

That doesn't mean I have to be a dick about it.

Apparently, you disagree with that stance.

[hosehead]

86. What is the proof?

You said that anyone who believes in God has proven themselves to be a weak-minded fool in the first place. Logically, you need to supply the proof to support your assertion.

[PurgedVoter]

5. Easy to answer!

Here is the answer by logic.
Which would your Deity prefer, the man, who does your will because of the fear you instill in him, or the man, who knows you not, but does your will because his own heart directs him to do right?
If your Deity prefers the first, He is a God of Rules.
If your Deity prefers the second man, He is a God of Love.

Here is the answer by verse.
Matthew 25:31-46.
"But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, 'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; naked, and you clothed me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
"The King will answer them, 'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' Then he will say also to those on the left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
"Then they will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?'
"Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

[Mass]

6. Only in the US could this question be asked.

Atheists are AS moral as people who believe in god.

I cannot even understand how the question can be asked. It should not. Asking it is giving credence to the idea that atheists cant be moral, even if you arrive at the other conclusion.

Added:

And given a few threads I read before, people who believe in god as AS moral as Atheists. Judge people on their actions and not on their belief systems and this country will be a lot better.

[booley]

39. I see it just the opposite

My question depends on the idea that morality isn't tied to a belief in a devine power. Therefore Atheists are no more or less moral for being Atheists then Theists are for being Theists.

If Atheists couldn't be moral then my question would make no sense.

So if you had two people, an Atheist who tried to make the world a better place and a Theist who only looked out for himself and caused harm to others..wouldn't the Atheist be the moral person from the Theististic POV?

[sweetheart]

8. "Who is better."

This is the frame of competetive culture, and what is better? Is it
smarter, wiser, funnier, living longer? Is it perhaps politically
"just" for all persons? Do all these things come in 1 package. Is not
the truth ostrasized, and when someone is truly a representation of
"better", they are persecuted, like jesus was.

But your frame says it all. It is one of objectivism, where reality is
defined without the individual, as if the knower will exist as some vicarious spirit after your body dies.

And this illusion is a particular religion of permanence. It is the
frame of mind that is immortal and does not know death. It sits in the
sky and judges things better and worse, higher and lower, forever in
absolute god-like immortality.

And that god speaks "who is better", but if one's religion is mortality,
one supported by the evidence that the observers and knowers will all
die, then whatever "better" there is, is a short lived little pique of
endorphines of being right and righteous.

And so, your frame is one where there is a god, and that god is the
person who asks "who is better", as if knowledge were important, and
this god holds objective knowledge important against the evidence
that it will perish and it is a folly this objective.

Then there is the view, that the awakeness of the soul is eternal, and
knowlege is not objective at all, but direct, born and dying again
in each moment, but at the same time, direct. Might that be god,
in another language perhaps.

[manic expression]

11. Great post...

Everything of real meaning in this world is not better or worse, merely different. The same omniscient truth manifests in many forms; infinite forms.

How many lines can one draw from a circle to the center? There is no end, but the center remains the same.

You phrased so much; and so much better than I could.

[Guaranteed]

15. Absolutely. nt

[jobycom]

9. An atheist can't answer the question about Heaven

It makes no sense to me, anyway. If there is a Heaven, then all the rules as I understand them are wrong, so there is no telling what the requirements for Heaven would be.

Some Christians believe you have to perform the right ritual formulas and say the proper chants, and then God chooses you based on those chants, not on what kind of life you've lived. So if there is a god and a Heaven, there's no reason for me to believe that's not true. So again, I can't really answer that question.

If the larger question is whether atheists can be as moral as believers, then obviously. Back about ten years ago I ran into a study which said that 90% of the population believed in some type of god, meaning 10% didn't. Yet 95% of people in prisons believed in a god. Therefore, atheists are less likely to go to prison than believers. Either we are better at getting away with crimes, or we commit them less often.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Smile! You're on Cosmic Camera!

I'm an atheist. Most theist types I come across are very concerned with the potential for misbehavior in the absence of a god, which leads me to think that several of them are only being good BECAUSE they think they're always being watched. Someone who doesn't steal or screw around or murder people because s/he's afraid of cosmic retribution isn't really being good, but is instead avoiding punishment. Whereas those of us who don't steal or yada yada yada for no other reason than the fact that we have to look at ourselves in the mirror the next day really are being good.

[Sapphire Blue]

16. I prefer Atheist's & Theists w/a social conscience over RW hypocrisy

[Snotcicles]

17. Twain

The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. I would not interfere with any one's religion, either to strengthen it or to weaken it. I am not able to believe one's religion can affect his hereafter one way or the other, no matter what that religion may be. But it may easily be a great comfort to him in this life--hence it is a valuable possession to him.
- Mark Twain, a Biography

[Snotcicles]

24. This quote is what I see in most people today

A religion that comes of thought, and study, and deliberate conviction, sticks best. The revivalized convert who is scared in the direction of heaven because he sees hell yawn suddenly behind him, not only regains confidence when his scare is over, but is ashamed of himself for being scared, and often becomes more hopelessly and malignantly wicked than he was before.

[Lannes]

22. Thats a loaded question

Take out the words atheist and theist out of your question and see whats left.Moral vs Hypocrite.There are some in both camps.

[Mass]

33. And this is probably the best answer in this thread\nt.

[Lindacooks]

100. Moral atheist is definitely better.

Have you ever read 'The Last Battle', part of the Narnia stories by C.S. Lewis? At the very end, Aslan (the God figure) stands and every single being (animal and human) on earth goes past him and looks in his face. Those who show love go with him, and those who show hate or fear go away from him.

Some of the 'enemy' the good people were fighting go with Aslan, and some of the 'good people' go away. It's all about what's in your heart. That's what I truly believe. It has nothing to do with who you worship - it's about who you are.

[queeg]

102. IF YOU POSTED HERE READ THIS

Who's buttons are easier to push? Atheist or Theist...

Well from the strength of the complaints here, it's obvious that some people has buttons much closer to the surface.

Perhaps that is one of the problems with religion is that people dont "really" believe it but feel compelled by it. When challenged on basic tenents, indignation zooms to the surface. While in the case of an Atheist --there is a lot of "yeah whatever"

From what I have seen here I was quickly able to get people frothing at the mouth. I think Swamp Rat finally got the joke, and so much the better.

If you have a problem with your own faith, it becomes easy for others to scratch it into a festering sore. ---and faith in this case means more than religion, it means a faith in America, and a faith in progressivism and a faith that "doing the right thing" is not something that needs to be discussed or to have meetings about. You should inately know that the "right thing" is. We as a group cannot afford to do that ---For the next few years at least we need to stick together, and understand that having our buttons pushed should not immediately get us to lash out or "educate" the other person, sometimes it's a matter of just "walk on by."

I personally am willing to take either side of any argument and get anyone frothing at the mouth. Usually in the end it's you that is going to look a little more like a boob. Good luck until the next flame war. Maybe next time I'll be pro-torture and see if I can get called a freeper.

[The Magistrate]

104. Locking

The question posed originally was excellent, but this has been turned into a flame-war.