Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

On A Positive Note .....

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:21 PM
Original message
On A Positive Note .....
In the past week, a number of DUers have mentioned feeling some stress or anxiety relating to the current political atmosphere. There have been a number of leaks relating to the Plame case; a flood of misinformation put out by the republican machine; and, on top of it all, the Bolton appointment. These are all significant events. However, I am going to venture that they indicate the administration is feeling more stress and anxiety than we might suspect.

History is always a good guide. In this case, I want to review a little of the Watergate era. Many DUers may remember these events, and I hope that they will add their thoughts. Others are also encouraged to add questions or comments.

Much like George Bush in 2004, President Nixon seemed extremely confident in 1972. Nixon's re-election seemed a sure thing. The Watergate break-in was only recognized by a few people as being a potentially huge scandal.

"I can state categorically that no one in the White House staff, no one in this administration, presently employed, was involved in this very bizarre incident, " Tricky Dick told an August 29, 1972 news conference. "What really hurts in matters of this sort is not the fact they occur, because overzealous people in campaigns do things that are wrong. What really hurts is when you try to cover it up."

But, as history has shown, President Nixon attempted to cover-up the Watergate scandal. When a grand jury was empaneled a month after the burglars were caught, Nixon was confident he had events under control. He and the boys mey repeatedly, and came up with an ever-shifting cover-up. During the trials that followed, even though the cases had a few shakey moments, it looked like Nixon and the boys might pull it off.

But a funny thing happens when people at the lower levels of a conspiracy find out that "the plan" is for them to go to jail, and their families to suffer, to protect those higher up. And that is especially true when there was a Judge named Sirica, who felt the prosecutors in the cases he heard were trying to protect something or someone.

That's why Judge Sirica said, "Everyone knows that there's going to be a congressional investigation in this case. I would frankly hope, not only as a judge but as a citizen of a great country and one of millions of Americans who are looking for certain answers, I would hope that the Senate committee is granted power by Congress by a broad enough resolution to try to get to the bottom of what happened in this case."

Now, as Fred Emery notes on page 240 of his book, "Watergate," Nixon was preoccupied with the thought of Senate hearings. He had made a name for himself hunting Alger Hiss in 1948; he was proud of catching an enemy of the Constitution in perjury. "Perjury, that's a damned hard rap to prove," the president kept saying over and over in 1973, as he became anxious about televised Senate hearings.

Tricky Dick was pretty sure he could distract attention by making it look like Senator Ted Kennedy was making the Watergate investigation into a political witch hunt. But the Senate Judiciary Committee pulled a quick one, and appointed Sam Ervin, who was a conservative, to head the investigation up. Nixon was furious, because he felt that this took "Teddy off the hook," as if Teddy were the one being investigated. Guilty people are funny that way.

Nixon and the boys started having a series of meetings. Some were held in Washington, DC, others in Florida, and some in California. Nixon liked to meet with different people in different places. He was weighing his options for sacrificing anyone and everyone else, in order to protect himself. Pretty soon, others noticed Nixon lacked loyalty, but they were still prepared to lie for him.

But then, on March 21, 1973, during one of the conversations that made a great tape documenting how guilty everyone of them really was, John Dean told Nixon there was a big problem, "Because, one, we're being blackmailed; two, people are going to start perjuring themselves very quickly that have not had to perjure themselves to protect other people and the like. And that is just -- there is no assurance -"

Nixon butts in, worried, "That it won't bust." And Dean agrees, "That it won't bust."

Pretty soon, most of the boys who had been willing to go along with Nixon when they thought he'd protect them realized that he probably couldn't protect them, even if he wanted to. A few realized that he didn't want to. So they got attorneys of their own.

Now, private attorneys never tell their client, "Hey, lie and protect others. Now is the time to dig yourself in a deeper hole. You owe loyalty to those using you." No, sir, that's not the ticket. Instead, they tell their client, "You are in big trouble. I'm going to have to try to make a deal to save your behind. "

So, when Nixon and the boys met, they were all stressed and anxious. Why? Because they knew they were lying through their teeth, looking to set-up the others, and save themselves.

How bad did it get? At a point in time not unlike today in the Plame scandal, Fred LaRue, John Mitchell's best friend, told others in the White House that Mitchell was "on the verge of breaking -- suicide." Magruder would later admit that he was considering taking his own life. Dean told of his concerns that his wife Maureen might kill herself. And Ehrlichman would disclose that he had a fantasy of seizing the controls once when he was in the cockpit of Air Force One, and crashing it, thereby killing everyone. Even Nixon would say he had hoped he would not wake up mornings at this time.

I take no pleasure in any human being feeling so desperate that they seriously consider killing themselves. That isn't the point of this story. Rather, I think it is important to remember that as tired and worn out as you and I might feel, we're still doing a lot better than the other side.

Appointing Bolton that way wasn't "bold leadership." It was the actions of someone who feels a sense of desperation. Sending that dehydrated weasal Bob Novak out to distract attention wasn't the administration regaining control. It was an administration recognizing that even "former" CIA employees can nail them.

I can't honestly say everything is going to be okay. That would be a lie worthy of Nixon. More soldiers are dying every day. More innocent Iraqis are suffering from the Bush/Cheney madness. And people in the United States are paying a heavy price for this administration's crimes.

But I can say we will win. And right now, I'm far more confident than anyone in the White House. Especially when they hear what their attorneys are saying in private.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well said, H2OMan! recommended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's right.
We need to be positive. Every morning, I like to play Bob Marley singing, "Positive Vibration."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
53. Hugely glad you posted all this, H2O Man. We need it.
I need it. I'm sure you need it, yourself, too.

For some odd reason, I was somewhat glum today, seeing how yet again the bad guys are making such headway. It's dizzying and dismaying. A reminder like this is more important than you even realize, my friend. I have to keep reminding myself that nothing lasts forever, not even these bastards. The "Evil Empire," the Ottoman Empire, the Invincible Armada (that wound up being NOT so invincible), the Roman Empire, the British Empire. Napoleon, Charlemagne, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, the Greeks, the Huns, the Goths, the Babylonians, the Third Reich, even Reagan, "the thing that would not die," finally did. And yes, Nixon didn't prevail, either. So will these schmucks. THANKS for this. I, too, remember Watergate, but I wasn't nearly as invested in keeping up with details then, the way I am now. But this gives me hope. And it's worth remembering. And I'm counting the hours.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. C'mon, Calimary !
"Live if you want to live
Rastaman Vibration, yeah!
I and I vibration, yeah!
Positive.

I a man iration, yeah! Irie ites
Positive vibration, yeah! Positive!

If you get down and worry
everyday
You're saying prayers to the
devil, I say
Why not help one another
on the way
Make it much easier
Say you just can't live that
negative way
You know what I mean
Make way for the Positive Day
'Cause it's a new day
New time, new feeling, yeah!
Say it's a new sign
Oh, what a new day

Picking up
Are you picking up now
Jah love, Jah love protect us
(repeat)

Rastaman vibration, yeah!
Positive
I and I vibration, yeah! Positive
I a man iration, yeah. Irie ites
vibes, got to have a good vibe
Picking up.
Are you picking up now
(repeat)"

-- Bob Marley & the Wailers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Just for you, I'm now listening to the late, great Bob Marley.
Good suggestion! :)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #60
65. It's important
to listen to Bob Marley. Wonderful music with a positive message.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
66. I remember Watergate and Tricky Dick
but not in the level of detail you lay out. Well done!

Here's my impression. For some time now I have been telling people that the Bushitler regime will fall apart much the way Nixon's did. The overall pattern of arrogance and denial in the face of the ever-quickening drip-drip-drip of leaks and discoveries, really feels exactly the same. The more idiotic things Bushitler does, the more obvious it is that they are losing their minds with fear. I give them 8 more months.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Very nice.
Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Pithy and cogent. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Another recommendation. Great points!
I was kind of feeling the same way, watching the twists and turns of the last month. You're right, they're very desperate! Their desperation sometimes worries me as far as what specific path they choose to lash out at those seeking justice. Many here have voiced their concerns over another Saturday Night Massacre. Anything's possible, but I have to agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence: we will win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent post.
:thumbsup:

I think oftentimes, the mistake is made to make our opposition seem larger than life and more powerful than they really are (**Karl Rove**). Sometimes, it seems as though they are above everything. They are not. They just want those of us who see the truth about them to think that.

Thank you for posting this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. I agree and I think we are near the tipping point,
with the American People finally seeing Bush for what he is. Someone should have told Bush what integrity and honor mean before he ran on it in 2000.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Their Subconscious Mind's Know The Truth And Suffer Under The Effort
to twist it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great post - well written, positive and realistic. I hope these people
don't resort to suicide, not so much because I care about their well-being (which I do, they are human, I can't help it) but because I want to see their trials and I want them to go to jail and live in a cell with the weight of the all the deaths they have caused on their shoulders.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks, I needed that!
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. In the early days -- the public mostly ignored the break-in
and gave Nixon a real landslide victory (not the phony vote that bushie got).

Nixon didn't change his behavior -- he stepped up the wire taps on innocent people. One women I was going to grad school with home was wire tapped. Her husband was a Federal prosecutor -- rather low level. Now why he was wire tapped I could never understand -- but the wire taps were wide spread.

At the same time Nixon put on a tough guy image -- and acted like he could do no wrong, because he was after all the Prez.

It took a long time for the American citizens to catch on -- that Nixon was a nut case. Even after most of the population turned on Nixon -- he still had a few hard core supporters.

In many ways the Nixon era is being replayed today -- even with same of the same characters. This gang keeps using the same sort of dirty tricks.

The new addition to the Nixon era dirty tricks is the use of psyops -- or psychological manipulation -- using fear to sell their product. The product is the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Plus they keep whacking the hornet's nest of religious fundamentalist Islamic nuts. In fact the bushier gang seems quite skilled at playing the any-religion-fundamentalism card. Islamic, Christian, Jewish -- all have their own brand of right wing nut fundamentalists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KerryOn Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. Nixon's tough guy image...
... This is exactly what I see in Bush. I have always noticed something strange about his walk. He always seems to push out his chest or something, like he is saying: "Don't mess with me, because I'm the President Of The United States, and no one answers to me."

He is a big bully that feels that he is above the law. I an remember a press conference a while back when one of the reporters did not address him as "Mr. President". He promptly reminded them of who he was, and how he should be addressed.

I can't wait to see the rat fink come tumbling down to his knees.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thanks for that review of history! You've warmed my
heart, and thanks for your optimism! I'm hopeful you're correct!:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lucca Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thank you for that piece of history. Very interesting.
I hope that you are right, and that "we will win".

The longer that this administration stays in power, the more corrupt it becomes.
I want all those in Plamegate, Treasongate or Traitorgate (whatever you want to call it), to be held responsible for their crimes.

What a new day it will be !
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. A gentle reminder:
Please also read my essay "The Anti-Rent War," which I posted on DU:GD earlier this afternoon. This thread was a response to something a person said there, which made me realize not everyone is feeling as positive as I am about this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks for posting this.
We need to keep our eyes on the prize.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. I feel good.
:)

I believe that they will get caught in the act of covering up, due in part to the knaves who refuse to fall on their own swords. A lot of documents were shredded/erased during those missing 12 hours, between the time Gonzales received info and the time he informed the WH crew... those pesky copies have a way of turning up. :D

I can't wait for the Rove trial! :woohoo:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slestak Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great post
As someone born during the Ford administration, I've never known too much about the details of what went on during this period.

Thanks for posting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. great post, I sure hope you are right
Edited on Tue Aug-02-05 04:42 PM by G_j
about us winning. I haven't given up, but somehow feel prepared for the worst also. I think these people have proved they are capable of much greater evil than Nixon. Aside from being a sign of tremendous insecurity at this point, their desperation also scares me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Glenda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thanks for the positive post!
I did think today that my life is a lot less stressful than anyone's in the * admin.

My life isn't about to possibly come crashing down before my eyes, nor do I have to look around the corner, wondering who is going to catch my lies and crimes and put me in jail

(not that *I* have lies and crimes, that is just an illustration :) )

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Glenda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Can I say another thing?
I LOVE my senator Kennedy!

He's been doing good stuff for a long time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Son of California Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. The President has looked nervous and worn-down
in every public appearance I've seen lately.
Man, the moral of the story, sometimes it looks like you'er gonna lose all the way to the end, and then you win, because you're enemy was keeping a good poker face, not letting on to how many good shots you did get in.
I think BushCo. will keep their poker faces down to the end. But there WILL be an end, a high noon, when all will be seen, and the guilty will be brought to bare.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. "The President?" You mean the chimp? I can't call him "prez"
mainly because he isn't

Did you mean, "bare" or "bear?" :rofl:

Were you welcomed to DU?? If not, Welcome to DU!!

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Son of California Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. thanks
right back at ya'!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. I sure do enjoy your posts
though I don't feel all that positive, your posts give me a lot to consider.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. If we NEVER stop fighting to retake our country, we cannot lose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maxpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
24. H2O Man
You are a national treasure. Many thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. "There is no assurance...that it won't bust." Because, everything busts.
It's the way of the world. And huge crimes are more entropic, the more people they involve.

Bust, baby, bust.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
27. Do You Ever Sleep?
Another good one. That's two in one day. Care to try for 3?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I may.
I have a few that I'm waiting for an opportunity to post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. H2O, thank God we have people here like you; yet, I cannot shake the idea
that this administration, particularly Rove and Cheney, will stop
at NOTHING to save their butts and stay in power. It seems to me
like they have all the aces of power, i.e., Congress, the Judiciary,
and SCOTUS. The depravity to which they will sink seems to have
no bounds and, frankly, as much as I PRAY you are right, part of
me is whispering, "yeah, right."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Oh, I'm convinced
that they will pull out all the stops. This will get a lot uglier before it gets better. And they do have many of the aces that you speak of. But they're lacking a couple trump cards: history and the truth both weigh heavily against them. We'll play this hand. And we are going to win. No question in my mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Trump cards: history, truth, and one more thing...
they're lacking a couple trump cards: history and the truth both weigh heavily against them

Yes on both history and truth.

But there's one more thing: a pissed off CIA that 1) was first ignored when they were right, then forced to fudge their data for political considerations, then blamed for the erroneous fudging and 2) had one of their own outed by political hacks for non-national security reasons and 3) in the process of that outing lost a very valuable resource, not just Valerie Plame but all of her network and contacts plus all of the front company's assets.

No, I don't mean the bureaucratic agency ostensibly run by Goss. I mean the clandestine, compartmentalized, "company" that "no one ever really leaves," and that includes the special ops guys who were forced out. Even if dimson pardons everybody on the planet, there are ways of exacting, shall we call it, non-judicial punishment. They may get away with a lot, but they won't get away with fucking with the CIA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I agree.
You have to be careful who you pick fights with. There are people who have studied the art of destabilizing governments for decades.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. The extraordinary injustices imposed by these monsters,...
,...have weighed heavily on me. I managed to maintain focus until I saw that kid who lost his arm and half his face in these bastards' power-mongering scheme. I have a brother whom I love dearly being sent into the Republican-supported, BushCo/neoCON-created nightmare of destruction, and my only son is vulnerable to the same.

After that, I thought, "My God! These monsters betrayed and exploited their own people, are creating torture camps around the globe, have violated their oathes and the Constitution through back-door legislation and executive orders and INTENTIONAL deception, have actually increased the danger to our national security, are killing off the middle class and destroying compassionate social nets, have scarred the world and diseased our own country...and the bastards are profitting off all these abuses of power!"

I don't know if these barbarians will experience the kind of justice they deserve on this great earth. However, I do believe they will pay for their soul-less evil. I also believe that we will grow from this experience.

Nevertheless, I ALWAYS appreciate, H2O Man, your integrated perspective of these times.

Thank you, again. :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. Sure hope history repeats itself. Times are different now, Nixon didn't
have the wide-spread, corrupt-government complicity that Cheney and * have. He didn't get to just be "interviewed" NOT under oath, like these guys.

Hopefully the pattern will hold that those further down in the corruption chain will protect themseleves and out the higher-ups, and not just be the fall-guy like Ollie North.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. Glimmer of hope
is what you always seem to offer, and for that I thank you.

Does anyone else feel the collective high anxiety that this administration has trickled down onto us? People I know who are ordinarily nice and pleasant are snapping lately. People are increasingly taking on a "looking out for myself" disposition.

When the truth comes out and Bush is stopped, I think the scene in this country will resemble the scen in Wizard of Oz right after the wicked witch of the east meets her melting demise. There will be a collective rejoicing.

I long for that day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. I shall adopt your perspective!
I will now think POSITIVE!

Thank you! It beats my angry thinking!




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
36. I feel better after reading your post H2O man. Thank you.
and kick!
:kick: :kick: :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
37. Once Again H2O Man
Edited on Tue Aug-02-05 06:25 PM by stepnw1f
Thank you. You deserve excellance...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
40. I was a child in the 70s
but old enough to remember the slow growth of tension building and building until the breaking point.

I remember adults around me talking like we do now--knowing the corruption was real, but doubting anyone would ever prove it, doubting any real change would come.

It is eerily similar. Thank you for stating this all so eloquently.

The recess appt of Bolton is a stunning and devastating political defeat for W. The fact that he failed to push his man through a Republican Congress is tremendously embarrassing to the entire administration.

Their desperation can be smelled throughout the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Bush is exposed
as being a spoiled, nasty-tempered brat. He shows an intolerance for other people's opinions and rights. Gandhi used to say that "intolerance betrays a want of faith in one's cause."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. wow, great quote
I hadn't heard that one before.

I was just reading on another thread about W's trifecta in some interview yesterday--supporting Rove, his baseball buddy who said no steroids and then got suspended for failing a steroid drug test, and intelligent design.

I'm starting to believe this man will bring himself down without anyone else's help...the old "give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves" routine.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
41. I don't know Water Man.
You know I agree on most points. But I think Bolton was appointed because Bush is not used to NOT getting his way. I agree that he is desperate, but I feel it's a deliberate slap at all who oppose Bolton's nomination. Thanks for such a great post!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thanks H2O Man...That was better than a drink...and cheaper too!
I hope lots of Freepers read your post and puts the fear of their vengeful God in them! That's basically the difference between us.
We believe in a loving God and they believe in a vengeful God.
I guess bush has taken lessons from "His God"...and that's the only thing he ever learned!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheCentepedeShoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
43. Thank you for sending
the positive vibes our way. I remember Watergate very well, and to steal a line from John Dean, this is WAY worse. What disheartens me is that there seem to be too few people in Congress like Sam Ervin and Howard Baker, people with the grounding in the history and government of our nation, who knew what sliding down that slippery slope of deception really meant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
45. Great Post!
I was a senior in high school when Watergate started getting some legs and followed the story very closely. I've seen "All the President's Men" a number of times (I often will watch it when I am feeling down about what's going on and pissed at the media for sticking their heads in the sand -- it makes me feel a little better). For some reason though, voracious reader that I am, I had never read the book until this past week. My god, there is so much more in the book in terms of information on what was going on then. H20 has summarized it quite well (THANKS!).

I think what struck me so much about reading "All the President's Men" was how many things that happened and were said/written then are nearly VERBATIM what is happening and being said/written NOW. I reverted to my college days and took out a yellow highlighter pen and highlighted many of these similarities, partly because they just really jumped out at me, but also partly because I'm passing this book on to my 25 year old daughter, and hopefully she will pass it among her friends (my daughter is a "flaming librul").

I know things do look bleak right now, and it seems as if we may never get these folks, but like H20, there is a part of me that believes that eventually they WILL be gotten. This crap just cannot continue on this trajectory -- I think it is actually against the laws of nature. Unfortunately, one of the things that could halt these creeps is the utter and total destruction of America, but in my gut, I think the trajectory will be halted before then. I really do, even when I am feeling my lowest and most frustrated.

Someone posted a reply to the effect that Nixon did not have the kinds of people and power that * has now, but he and his supporters didn't have something we have -- the Internet. Yeah, the Freepers can use this tool also, but look what's happening with "our side" -- the support, organizing, etc. at the grass roots level. The millions of eyes on what is happening. I think this will help halt the trajectory to hell that * and his minions have us on.

I would suggest reading the book, or Emery's book; hopefully it will give you a little help, not to mention an even greater awareness that the Republican playbook really has not changed at all from the Watergate era! An example, from "All the President's Men":

"Once, during the Florida primary, Howard had some fliers printed saying that mayor Lindsay, of New York, was having a meeting and there would be free beer. Howard handed these fliers out in the black areas, and of course there was no meeting or beer, so the blacks would come for the beer and leave hating Lindsay. Howard thought this was the greatest thing since Chinese checkers."
(Sound familiar?????)

Or how about this: "People in the White House believed they were entitled to do things differently, to suspend the rules, because they were fulfilling a mission; that was the only important thing, the mission."

Or: "I can't answer your question because that's part of the investigation."

And one of my very favorites (oh, but there are SO many), involving an exchange between the White House press corps and Press Secretary Ron Ziegler, with questions about whether the White House had directed their people to sabotage, spy, wiretap, etc. their opponents and "enemies": "Three times you've used the word 'directed.' where they aware of what was going on?" Ziegler: "I think 'directed' is quite clear. As I said before, anyone who would have been involved in any such activity wouldn't be around here any more." Hmmm, where have we hear THAT before?



:7
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. It's almost like
when they remake a movie from the past. (In this case, "In Cold Blood" comes to mind. I can hear Dick saying, "It was Perry! I tried to stop him, but I couldn't!") I'm re-reading "All the President's Men" for the second time since Felt went public. It's amazing how many things fit this case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I know what you mean
When I was reading "All the President's Men," I was often sitting on the couch while my husband was trying to watch something on TV. As soon as the commercials would come on, I'd say, "Honey, listen to this! And this! And this!!" There are so many similarities. Hopefully, another similarity will be that these people are taken down! Thanks again for the great post. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hun Joro Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
48. Thank you so much for posting that
I've been finding it very difficult to see anything as positive lately...I needed to read that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
49. This is great:
"Dean explained that he would be called the following week before the grand Jury. He was not a 'target' of the grand jury (i.e., a potential defendent), nor was Haldeman; indeed, Haldeman might not get called at all, unless to corroborate other statements."

--"Watergate"; Fred Emery; page 296.

This should be very reassuring for Karl Rove, who is not a "target" of Fitzgerald's investigation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
52. Thanks.
I'm feeling about as down and angry as a person can feel, and it's distressing to carry around this incredible hatred for an administration which really does not give a damn about anyone but themselves, and then they commit treason and there's no national outrage. Seriously, WTF is that all about? I'm spitting nails and America hits the snooze button and goes to sleep.

But you are wiser than I and maybe, for now, I'll allow myself to relax just a bit. But I am so afraid that America is on its deathbed, it's a feeling I cannot shake.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
54. I don't understand your point about Bolton
What on earth does the Bolton recess appointment have to do with anything?

From my perspective -- and I'd love to be wrong about this -- but it was Bush SOP: Didn't get what he wanted the normal way, so he pushed he way thru, forcing the issue. I don't see how anything else going on -- perhaps esp. the Plame affair -- would have changed this one bit, one way or another. IOW: he'd have done it this way with or without Plame, with or without his approval ratings tanking, with or without Iraq, with or without anything else I can think of or name.

And WHY does he insist on Bolton? Why, there's UN REFORM to get done, of course. I thought this article laid it out pretty well:

Ron Paul{R} TX :"Neocon Global Govt"
(New World Order -- why they want Bolton)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1855763&mesg_id=1855763
U.N. REform Act - Ron Paul column:
NeoCon Global Government
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst061305.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. But with a recess appointment...
... the appointment only lasts until this Congress ends, the end of 2006.

That certainly is a defeat, particularly given that second term presidents tend to lose members during the midterm election. The Senate also dislikes it when preidents do an end run around their institution--they are far less likely to confirm recess appointments made to major positions when it is clear that it is done for political reasons.

The time limit on Bolton's term will also hamstring his ability to push for "reform," or anything. Given that he's only really in the position for a year and a half, he starts out as a lame duck. If he really starts trying to get tough with anyone, they can simply refuse to deal with him, and wait him out. The kinds of things Bolton would like to have happen would take years. They simply won't get done in the short time he's got.

This appointment was bad for the nation. It would have been far better for the president to nominate someone the Senate could confirm than to make a recess appointment and effectively hobble his ambassador to the UN.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
67. I think it's pretty significant that Bush couldn't get Bolton through
A Repug Congress. Whatever happened to the tight party discipline they maintained through the 1st 4 years?

Even Freaky Frist is revolting (no pun intended, of course), having smelled the potential for big medicine bux in stem cells.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
55. I remember there were many unanticipated.......
developments in watergate. One paricular surprise was the emergence of Martha Mitchell, wife of atty General John Mitchell. She called Helen Thomas and raised all sorts of hell!!!

http://www.maebrussell.com/Watergate/Helen%20Thomas.html

I guess what I'm saying is "The universe works in mysterious ways." No one controls destiny. It will be fun to watch this unfold.

Thank you H2O Man, for chillin us out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
58. This is the first thing to make me feel hope in some time.
Thank you, Waterman. Thank you.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. .
:7
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
59. good call
The lower level folks are always the saving grace, and that's what I'm hoping will happen: lower level defections that topple the whole House of Cards.

I only fear what they might try to pull in the interim; out of fear and pride and failure.

Your comments about suicidal thoughts are interesting, but they also speak volumes about the personal stake these kind of goons have in maintaining their positions of power.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
i miss america Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
61. Thank you H2O Man
It's an extremely encouraging thought that those rat bast@rds might actually be quivering in their boots. Thank you for posting this and for keeping hope alive.

:yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
62. Nobody knows. Recent history is not taught or understood.
I don't remember those years and was never taught them in school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. It's amazing
what we DON'T learn in school! When did you graduate, if you don't mind my asking. If you're on super double secret background, though, then don't answer! :7
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
63. Kick for something postive to be highlighted...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC