Another way to battle the Meth Epidemic

[jmowreader]

I don't think all these new restrictions on pseudoephedrine are going to make much of a dent in the meth trade. I can think of a few ways to get all of the pseudoephedrine you want...most of them involve breaking and entering or highway robbery, but considering that meth cooking is itself a crime, I don't think the legal status of hijacking trucks headed to drugstores is going to matter much.

In an attempt to try to figure out a new way to stop meth cookers, I found two basic ways to make meth. One is the Nazi Method, which requires anhydrous ammonia and ether. The other is the True Iodine Method, which requires hydrochloric acid, tincture of iodine that hasn't been decolorized, lye and a solvent like Coleman fuel or toluene. All of this is bad shit, man, and some of it's almost impossible to get--specifically, anhydrous ammonia, which is sold in 900-gallon lots to people with applicator's licenses.

I wrote to my senator (who is a law-and-order Repug) and suggested a law that:

* requires all tincture of iodine to be decolorized. The meth cookers say decolorized tincture of iodine is useless to them, so make it all decolorized.

* establishes a registry, similar to the one proposed for cold pills, for the solvents used in the meth process.

This could get entertaining: hydrochloric acid is usually sold as muriatic acid. Its two main legitimate uses are etching concrete and adjusting the pH of pool water. Pool owners buy a lot of this stuff, so they'll wind up on the registry frequently. If the cops show up to investigate, it will take about two seconds to eliminate suspicion..."here's the pool, officer." Concrete finishers and brick masons buy lots of it too, but once again an investigation will take but a moment. Apparently horse owners buy a lot of tincture of iodine, which is sold in gallon jugs at farm supply stores.

Hey, it beats the hell out of the current method of meth abatement: register for your cold capsules and we'll ignore the fact that someone could take a hammer to the door of our pharmacy at 2am, walk in, and have unfettered access not only to cold capsules but to the drugs you don't have to soak in dangerous chemicals to make fun.

[Kraklen]

1. You could just decriminalize it.

Produce it in a real laboratory and give it out to addicts like clean needles to heroin junkies.

Probably makes too much sense.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. It is the only drug

I don't think should be decriminalized. Heroin, cocaine, pot - no problem with them all being legal. But not meth. It is too dangerous.

[Kraklen]

8. Weren't you arguing in favor of Prohibition yesterday?

Literally of alcohol?

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. No

not me

[Kraklen]

11. OK.

But I still don't see how clean meth is worse than coke or heroin.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I have seen meth cause much more damage to people

than any other drug available. There have been several threads here lately about meth. It is nasty, nasty stuff.

FWIW, I was in favor of total legalization of drugs until I knew a few people who got involved with it. One was a guy who went crazy on meth and was shot to death by the cops in front of his kids. About the same time, we had close friends who got in to meth and in nine months time, their lives were completely ruined - both had lost their jobs, their house had been foreclosed and he was headed for prison for dealing meth. I wish I could post before and after pictures here. The change in their appearances was frightening.

[wli]

2. need to find buzzwords to sell it with

The Sudafed ban worked because "oh, a pill getting used for drugs with some extra magic" sort of fits preconceived notions.

Selling policies based on actual facts such as chemistry is a little harder. In the absence of an ad campaign, you can try going on a purely factual basis.

[jmowreader]

19. Call 'em "dangerous chemicals"

as in "We're going to regulate the dangerous chemicals used to make this dangerous drug."

Show the cops raiding a suspected meth lab. They wear full hazmat suits when they go in one and with good reason.

People are scared of the word "chemicals" anyway, and with good reason--many of them are really fucking nasty.

The only way the freepers can attack this is on a "nail salon" angle. "Oh look, the Demoncrats want to make it illegal to get a manicure." That's easy to fight with just a little education: set a little fire in a pan and drop a gallon of acetone into it.

[KamaAina]

3. The Nazi Method. Seems appropriate somehow.

Meth freaks get their anhydrous ammonia from the tanks it's stored in, out on farms in remote areas. (Much like they'll be boosting cases of sinus pills if they need to.)

I'm not sure Bush**America is quite ready for a pool owners' registry, though. Much simpler -- and more effective, in terms of establishing a police state -- to put Joe Sinus on the registry when he goes in to get his Sudafed.

Question: Where does the dreaded brake fluid fit in to all of this?

[Lannes]

14. Didnt Hitler use meth?

I remember seeing a documentary about his drug use but cant remember what he was on.

[jmowreader]

21. Brake cleaner, not brake fluid

Brake cleaner has toluene in it, and toluene can be used as one of the solvents in the True Iodine process. Apparently this works better than Coleman fuel, but it's a drug of abuse on its own (remember the Fuller's Resistol thing? Resistol is dissolved in toluene) so it's harder to get in some places.

[MadHound]

5. Trouble with your proposal

Is that they will apply these restrictions to iodine and muratic acid, which is also used by car hobbyists and other automotive applications, in addition to restricting cold medicines.

Best thing to do is to legalize all drugs. It has been shown time and again that after a substance is legalized, there is a temporary "euphoric upswing" in usage, quickly followed by a permanent drop.

Also, if you legalize all drugs, you don't have to continue to whittle away all of our civil rights, you don't have to worry about restricted products, you eliminate the secondary crime wave that accompanys illegal drugs, you eliminate the problems that go with contaminated drugs(such as meth mouth, etc), you turn violent drug abusers into law abiding, tax paying, productive citizens, and you open up a whole new tax revenue stream, which could be used to rehab and educate kids about drugs.

Sorry but we need to stop this senseless war on drugs. We aren't winning it, we can't win it, but we are destroying our country trying to fight it. The cure has turned out to be worse than the problem, and we should admit that it was a mistake, and correct that mistake by legalizing all drugs.

[jmowreader]

22. Iodine and muriatic acid have legitimate uses

Let's say we established a registry for muriatic acid. There are quite a few legitimate uses for it--concrete etching, brick etching, pool maintenance.

The registry would have name and address, business name and address, and reason for buying the product.

This would be coupled to registries for things like toluene, Coleman fuel and lye.

Now let's assume that Joe Smith buys 300 gallons of muriatic acid a year. That's a hell of a lot even if you are making meth. But you look at Joe's business name: "Joe Smith Masonry." The cops drive past Joe's business address: he's got skids of brick sitting around, he's got a big sign in front that says Joe Smith Masonry on it. He's got an awning with twenty full skids of Brixment under it. There are fifteen trucks that say Joe Smith Masonry on them. There are people getting into the trucks who are completely covered in Brixment dust. There are three storage tanks with massive amounts of sand under them. And there are no records of Joe's buying 300 gallons of toluene or 300 pounds of lye this year. Joe is a mason.

OTOH, if Joe were to buy all the materials in quantities necessary to make meth, plus he's real high on the Contac registry, plus when the cops went to his "business address" the roof was in the process of being blown off the house by the massive explosion that just happened in the kitchen, Joe is (well, was) running a meth lab.

[Lannes]

6. If I can find it Ill post it

But a saw a report recently saying that tracking people that buy pseudoephedrine in large amounts actually has decreased the number of meth labs dramatically in some areas.Im sure they will try to find a substitute for it if they can.

Sort of off-topic a good movie about "tweekers" is "The Salton Sea" with Val Kilmer and Vincent Dinofrio.You may want to check it out.

[MadHound]

9. It is going to be a temporary reduction though

Meth is the most adaptable drug out there, you can make it out of virtually anything. Originally nicked off of the forumula for making amphetamines, meth has goe through several permutations over the past couple of decades, as first one substance or another is banned or put behind the counter, or dropped from stores. This restriction of cold medicines will only temporarily put the labs out of business. I can guarantee you that there are a few thousand home chemists that are working on this problem right now.

Meanwhile here in Missouri where we put cold medicines behind the counter a couple of months ago, we are starting to get flooded with Mexican meth flooding over the border.

[Lannes]

13. Yeah,you are probably right.

If people want to get high eventually they will find a way around the roadblocks.Its been true of every drug.

[SteppingRazor]

18. Another good film about it is "Spun"

Thinking about trying crank? Watch this, and you will change your mind. Yikes!

[Lannes]

20. Thanks for the tip

Always looking for good movies to watch.

[eallen]

7. Those solvents are used for a wide variety of purposes.

[Hoosiergal]

12. Being in Indiana......

...the meth capital of the world, I agree that something really must be done.

One thing they have tried here is putting a pink dye in the anhydrous ammonia. The result? A lot of junkies going around with their noses, mouths & track-marked arms bright pink- seriously!

It really makes me sad because I work as a social worker & there are so many children that are the unintended victims of meth. And once a person is hooked on it, they are usually beyond the point of no return and have little chance of recovery. A public defender I know thinks its worse than crack or heroin addiction.

Its a personal issure for me because I have lost a lot of friends to meth. I don't have the answer to what will stop this epidemic, but agree that it needs to be a priority.

[firefox]

15. Ever heard of Mexico?

Fighting supply with taxpayer money is just going to mean impoverished taxpayers. If there is demand, there will be supply even if it comes from out of the country.

In meth we can see addiction as a killer. The users need a way to get help before death or prison.

I think keeping the subject on public forums like this helps to warn people of the dangers of meth. The best thing is to keep people from trying it in the first place and maybe this thread will prevent one person from falling into the trap of meth addiction.

[CottonBear]

17. Uh oh. I'm a horse owner and I have some tincture of Iodine.

:scared: I never knew that it could be used to make meth. I just use it for first aid purposes for my Cotton filly.

I read that the American, Canadian and Mexican pharmcaeutical companies may reformulate the cold medicines so that they can't be used ot make meth.

[jmowreader]

24. Yeah, you can make meth from tincture of iodine

It seems to be one of the reagents in the True Iodine process, which is not the Nazi process.

After reading all the meth recipes, I came to one conclusion: meth has strange and unusual powers. After all, to make meth you take cold tablets and soak them in four different chemicals, all of which are lethal and three of which are explosively flammable. And they get people to ingest this! :shrug:

[CottonBear]

29. Meth is really evil, I believe that. n/t

[dogday]

23. Let's not get logical now, let's make

the people go through hoops for their allergy and cold medications instead of restricting the base drug needed. Just freaking great....

[sweetheart]

25. no registries

I am a free citizen living in a time when citizens have the right to the
presumption of innocense. I have the right to own any chemical on earth
provided i do not do harm to others.

I don't need a nanny registry to probe my behind.

Must we be so authoritarian? Is there not a libertarian
solution that does not involve invasions of privacy and
police state lists of who has bought what.

[jmowreader]

26. For meth there shouldn't be

Let's throw out a scenario and see how Ms. Rand likes it.

You own rental property, specifically ten rental houses. They rent for $500 per month.

One evening, you notice that one tenant hasn't paid his rent in three months. You travel to that house and notice a strong solvent smell coming from the house.

Because you are wary of these kinds of smells, you call the fire department. They come out and find the equipment and supplies needed to manufacture retail quantities of meth. Later, you find out that two of your other rental properties are also being used as meth labs.

It costs you $10,000 to have each house cleaned up.
Because these houses were being used as drug factories, and because your state has no "innocent victim" provision to its drug forfeiture laws, the local sheriff seizes all three houses and sells them. The proceeds from the three sales are given to the DARE program.
You suddenly have to make ten house payments using the revenues from seven rental properties--the banks have scant patience for someone who lost his house because he was allowing his renters to make meth in it. This causes you to lose the other seven houses.

Besides, meth is the nastiest shit you can possibly come across.

I want meth eliminated. I think pot should be legal now and only the problems of enforcing stoned-driving laws are keeping it from being legal now. (Trust me, guys, there will be baggies from Seagrams, reefers from Philip Morris and blunts from Phillies the week after grass is finally legalized.) Heroin should be legal for terminally ill patients now, Seconal should be OTC, just every drug could be legalized for some purpose.

Every drug, that is, except for meth and crack.

[sweetheart]

27. Prohibition favours the most concentrated drugs

The economics of prohibition force dealers to focus on chemicals that
can yield higher profits for smaller dosages. Cannabis is a very
bulky, stinky drug. The plant is very pungent, and dealers run a high
risk when pentalties are similar for all drugs, the one with the
most dealer profit per kilo wins out.

Meth wins, because cannabis is not legal. If the prohibition were
repealed, these dangerous, concentrated drugs would not be the
favourties of the market.

And even still, if all who bought meth, had to get it under a medically
"legal" supervised perscription, much as pot is today for medicinal
users in california, the dangerous effects can be controlled.

Prohibition never works. People can always drink gasoline and get high.
There is no limit to the dangerous things that can become drugs if
you're dumb enough to consume them. There comes a point where the
entire effort of running the nanny state is more destructive than
what it protects us from.

So a few meth users die... they die already, but the exploding labs and
the avoidable deaths are prevented. Doctors switch meth users on
to less harmful tracks and help them with their addiction through
the perscription process.

Medical supervision is the right of all drugs users, and the whole
issue of ALL drugs should be a private matter between a doctor
and their patient.

I agree with you, that meth and crack are dangerous. So is rat
poison, lye, and wood preserver. If you inject acetone, it will
probably get you high whilst it kills you. There is no end to the
banal stupidity of the nanny state. Either we are responsible for
our own choices, either we are whole citizens, or we are not.

I'm increasingly discouraged, as it seems the democratic consensus,
is that we are half citizens, with freedom only on paper, and not
in practice. The framers would not tolerate these erosisons of the
bill of rights. This wantan seizure of property is a gross
violation. The invasions of privacy are gross violations... the
cost is not worth the returns... as the returns have proven, drugs
on the street are cheaper and more widely available than ever before
in history... prohibition in all forms, ALL... is a failure.

[jmowreader]

28. Libertarianism is the reason drugs will remain illegal

Fuckin' libertarians running around screaming "all drugs should be legal, it should be up to the user what he puts in his body" are a very large reason why we will never have a rational drug policy in this country.

Because "all drugs should be legal" translates, in the Repug reptilian brain, to "liberals think your first-grader should smoke all the meth he wants."

Some drugs, regardless of your opinion of the failed drug war, need to remain illegal. Meth and crack are numbers one and two on the list. These drugs are just plain bad.

Pot should be allowed under the same circumstances we allow alcohol. We don't let people drive drunk; we shouldn't allow them to drive stoned either, or operate heavy machinery.

Heroin would be an okay drug for medical use--something to turn to when you inject the whole ampoule of morphine into a 100-pound individual and it doesn't stop the pain. (Of course, if your opiate receptors don't fucking work like mine don't, heroin won't help you. Ask me how I know this....)

Legalize pot, acid, a couple of good uppers and a couple of good downers, and people will leave meth and crack for the legal stuff.

[Swamp Rat]

30. Make a billboard of this pic and put it near every road in America: