Clark supporters: Has Clark bashing by Deanies....

[joe_momma]

unfairly changed your opinion of the Gov.? And how has this helped the effort to unseat the current idiots in the White House?

[graham67]

1. It isn't the Deanies....

I can always go hide somewhere on the net that is completely Clark-friendly. Howard Dean himself is changing my opinion on Howard Dean.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

2. not at all

Dean's getting better on trade issues, I like what he said in the debates, and he mentioned that people have been talking about corporate power.

Supposedly Clark is more progressive than Dean. What can Clark give me?

[Tatiana]

3. To be honest...

his rhetoric has turned me off. I was pretty much undecided between Clark and Dean, but I'm leaning pretty solidly in Clark's direction unless Kerry surprises me and starts running a better campaign.

I don't care who Clark voted for in the past. If he voted for Clinton TWICE after all the allegations and smears thrown at Clinton (not to mention the Republican's genuine HATRED for Clinton), he can't be that much of a Repuke.

Clark strikes me as honest. TOO honest in some respects, but that can be a refreshing thing in this era of politics.

[Sibanetta]

6. I'm for Clark!

I think Howard Dean is an honest man, and a good Democrat, but he has an image problem. He comes across as perennially pissed off. People don't want an angry guy with his finger on the button!

Wesley Clark is tne Man-Of-The-Times! He is highly intelligent, actually served in a war, is politically savvy and has the cojones to take on the bad guys. There are going to be negatives to be sure (Would the perfect people please step to the front of the room:eyes: )
and knowing the way the "Boy Genius" runs a campaign, it will get even uglier if Clark is nominated...but I think he can tough it out.
He made it to the top in the Military, where the politics are brutal!

As long as he stays honest and upfront about who he is and what he's done, Clark can take Bush. The American people aren't stupid, they're hep to GWB and his cabal. They are tired of the lies and the duplicity
...and are down right dismayed with the price tag.

The only concern I have, and it is an ongoing one, is that the Media is slanted so "right". They will Duboobya the benefit of the doubt until the cows come home, and make mountains out of Democratic molehills. Something really needs to be done about that! In the meantime, we need to keep burning up the bandwidth, and keeping the truth out there!

Sibanetta

[newyawker99]

16. Hi Sibanetta!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[WillyBrandt]

4. No, but the fact that Dean lies does

Deanies believe in their guy, and many are new to politics, and I respect that. Their enthusiasm sometimes spills over into attacks against others, which pisses me off, but really isn't so bad. We all get excited.

What pisses me off to no end is Dean's lie against Clark:

"That's why I had such strong disagreements with Senator Kerry, representative Gephardt and senator Edwards and Lieberman and now general Clark who also advocated last October that we go into Iraq, despite his opposition to it now."

Typical grandstanding, dishonest politician. Howard Dean is a liar: Clark did NOT advocate going to war against Iraq.

He knows he's got a tough opponent in Clark, who is getting a lot of grassroots support (sorry, Deanies, the grassroots are wider than you think.) And he's afraid he can't beat him except by campaigning like a Republican.

[w4rma]

7. Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR (held in October)

Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
…
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html

Clark Explains Statement on Authorization for Iraq War
…
"I never would have voted for war," he said here this afternoon in an interview and in response to a question after a lecture at the University of Iowa. "What I would have voted for is leverage. Leverage for the United States to avoid a war. That's what we needed to avoid a war."

Speaking about the resolution on Thursday, General Clark said, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question."

He then added: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
About Iraq, he said "There was never an imminent threat," and called the war "a major blunder."

"We're not the sort of `you're with us or against' kind of people," he said.

"We're a come-and-join-with-us kind of people," he told a crowd of 1,000 in the main lounge of the Iowa Memorial Union. "Americans know in their hearts that you don't make our country safer by erecting walls to keep others out. You make us safer by building bridges to reach out.

"We also have to recognize that force should be used only as a last resort, when all other means have failed."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/politics/campaigns/20CLAR.html

Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR and Dean's response
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=401401

[WillyBrandt]

10. Lying Liar

What garbage.

"That's why I had such strong disagreements with Senator Kerry, representative Gephardt and senator Edwards and Lieberman and now general Clark who also advocated last October that we go into Iraq, despite his opposition to it now."

Clark also advocated LAST OCTOBER that we go into war?

And where did Clark ADVOCATE for going into war, instead of speculating out loud whether an IWR vote would have made sense?

Dean clearly is painting Clark as one of the fools who advocated the US going to war against Iraq, one of the people who pushed us into this mess.

It is dishonorable and a lie. Lying Howard strikes again.

[w4rma]

11. Source that quote please. (n/t)

[Kahuna]

17. Clark was being more honest than dean could ever dream ..

of being. Although Clark had always said he wouldn't have voted to war on Iraq, he pondered out loud what he would have done had he of been in the position to have to vote on it. It's easy to say what you would have done after the fact. But neither clark OR DEAN know what they would have done if they had had to face the decision and vote. Right. One minute he says yes the next he said no. That's being totally honest since he really doesn't know how he would have voted.

[boxster]

5. Not really, however....

I like Dean and he's still in the running for my vote.

If I were to base my opinions of Dr. Dean based on his supporters on DU, it might be another story. It's not so much the bashing of Clark as the insistence that he's the fundamental opposite of Dean and the ignorance of contrary information.

For example, 'Clark is a Republican'. Frankly, it should be terribly obvious to anyone that he is not, yet even in the face of documentation stating otherwise, some Dean supporters repeat this mantra to death.

"He's pro-choice".
"But, he's a Repuke."

"He's pro-affirmative action".
"But, he's a Repuke."

"He's rated on issues2000.org as fundamentally similar to Dean."
"But, he's a Repuke."

I'm not saying Clark supporters aren't just as bad, but I haven't seen the utter resistance to "discussion" that I've seen in anti-Clark postings. Maybe I just need to look for them more.

[Padraig18]

8. I support Governor Dean.

If I were to base my support on the basis of some of my fellow Deanites' actions/flame-bait postings, I'd probably be a Clark, Kerry or Edwards' supporter.


CHILL OUT, PEOPLE!

[DrBB]

9. Dean's OWN comments today did it

Been trying to keep my head above water on all this crap. But Dean deciding to go negative on Clark in this (IMO) underhanded way has seriously lowered him in my esteem. Not helped by the amount of right wing propaganda being promoted by so-called Democrats on DU lately. But seeing Dean do it, too... that's really bad. This stuff is going to end up being corrosive for whoever wins.

[Justice]

13. Surprised By Dean Today

Today, the RW comments and rhetoric spooked Dean and he took the bait. Dean has been strong up to now, and I hope he finds a way to continue his message without taking the bait. I am a Clark supporter, but give Dean a pass for today - and hope he gets back on message. Dean is much better than today.

I have seen more people take the bait on MTP or in the Russert moderated debates. Remember McBride in Florida, remember O'Brien in MA in the debates for governor - Russert sets democrats up. That is his job.

[andym]

12. Hi, I support both

Hi, I support both, but I would truly prefer that
this bashing stop. It is truly childish and fanatical.

It reminds me of the 1950's communist witch hunt-- There might be
a communist hiding under my bed.

It is more than just Dean/Clark, it's most of the candidates and
their supporters against each other.

How many of you posting political attacks really understand
that most of what you're writing is mudslinging.

Andy

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. GREAT POST ANDY!!!

Welcome to DU...we need MORE Andy's not less!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Not anymore than Dean bashing by the ClarkRepublic

(I mean Clark-pers deserve a derogatory ad hominem name too, don't they?)

I think you are all a disgrace to your candidates.

[RobertFrancisK]

15. No, I love Dean

I worry a bit about his electablity, and I think Clark coul do a lot more for the party's image, but attacks by Dean people and Kucinich people doesn't at all change the fact that Dean is a good guy, maybe not the right guy right now, but a good guy none the less.

[MoonRiver]

19. I don't like people who want to smear and slime, not debate.

Doesn't matter what candidate those who do it are aligned with. The tone has completely changed here. There used to be just some fairly mild bantering between posters. Now, we have true hate filled venom spewing lies filtered straight from Drudge, Rove, and Pigboy tossed into our faces like biblical truth If I wanted to participate in that type of board I'd be hanging out at the Free Republic. :puke:

[AnnabelLee]

20. Locking

This thread was started by a disruptor who has been banned.

AnnabelLee
DU Moderator