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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 03:47 PM
Original message
Dean: Is HE trying to pull the wool over our eyes.... or are WE
Edited on Sun Sep-28-03 03:56 PM by janekat
pulling it over our own eyes? Which is it???? Maybe a little of both....


“Asked whether her son is a liberal, Dean’s mother told Cloud, “He’s not really...I just hope they don’t find that out just yet.” http://www.time.com/time/style/printout/0,8816,472817,00.html


“……keep in mind that Dean is no progressive. He just wants your vote. And like most politicians he'll say what he needs in order to get what he wants. Supporting Civil Unions back in Vermont is one of his only plus marks, but that shouldn't entitle him to outright ownership of your vote. Don't let him fool you into thinking he's anything more than regressive. He's simply not.” http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001000.html


http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/269121.shtml
Will the Real Howard Dean Please Stand Up? Don't hold your breath

In 1995, Vermont reporters were writing stories suggesting that Dean actually delighted in the confusion about his ideological leanings. In 1995, after making a round of national news shows, Dean seemed almost to brag: "These guys think they're getting a raving liberal. And then they find out I'm not a raving liberal. I'm kind of in the middle and, for example, I'm in favor of workfare."

I suspect we'd rather not actually know who the real Howard Dean is. He just pulled the wool over everyone's eyes thanks to AP news and reporters who can't bother to research or question - in CA this week he said he supports the Kyoto Protocol, when in fact, he's on record as not supporting it. No one said anything about it, and now the average cheering fan thinks Dean supports Kyoto.

It's surprising that the WP is even raising this question since they're the ones essentially giving birth to his presidency as it is by never mentioning anyone except him.

But don't hold your breath on EVER knowing the real Dean.



http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/267969.shtml
“Dean's strategy is to pick a handful of issues - the war, gay rights, healthcare - and spout off that he's so against Bush on these issues, that Bush is so wrong, etc., but when examined in more depth, Dean shows that what he offers isn't 'progressive' by any stretch, but is actually fairly similar to what Bush offers.

So for Amerisheep who aren't paying close attention, they hear that he supports one issue, say gay rights, and they are sure - when you ask them - that he couldn't also support the death penalty, the views of AIPAC, be against the Kyoto Protocol, have supported the concept of illegal preemptive war, etc., and they're often quite surprised to hear that this is the case.

I'm glad you support eliminating the settlements, etc., but then why would you think that suddently, after 90 billion in aid to Israel, that the US shouldn't be involved? We've helped to create a huge anger toward Israel in the region by pumping them full of weapons and loans and to suddenly let them loose and not aid the Palestinians at all, seems reckless. I'd support international peacekeepers, but the Palestinians as a people deserve support. They do have over 50% unemployment, and the US has helped make it this way by supporting Israel for so long. Similarly, Israel has murdered a number of internationals, UN workers, AP reporters, etc., and should have consequences. Just walking away won't be the answer.

My point is, it's a very complex issue, and Dean's response that the problem is 'terrorism itself' and attributing it to one side, is flat-out wrong. “


http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html
"Dean's attempts to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," Smith told Wild Matters. "He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he's made the permitting process one, big dysfunctional joke."

Annette Smith, the director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment - When Smith learned that Dean was holding a press conference at the Burlington Community Boathouse last week to celebrate his eco-legacy, she fired off emails to Vermont environmentalist calling for a protest of the event and wondering if they were "going to let Governor Dean ride out on his white horse of environmental leadership?"

Stephanie Kaplan, a leading environmental lawyer and the former executive officer of Vermont's Environmental Board - "Under Dean the Act 250 process (Vermont's primary development review law) and the Agency of Natural Resources (ANR) have lost their way," contends Kaplan. "Dean created the myth that environmental laws hurt the economy and set the tone to allow Act 250 and the ANR to simply be permit mills for developers."


http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1620525.php
“Howard Dean supporters, stop sleep walking. He's not a true progressive”


http://www.peaceredding.org/Will%20the%20Real%20Howard%20Dean%20Please%20Stand%20Up.htm
Dean at Home
The folks back home in Vermont are looking on with a combination of bewilderment and amusement at how their very own good Dr. Dean has become the focus of the debate.
…….In interviews this week, several liberal Vermont politicians and political observers said Dean often found himself in an adversarial position with the state's liberals, as he demanded that growth in government services fall within the constraints of a balanced budget.

…..Dean also boasts of his high rating from the National Rifle Association for his anti-gun control stance, which puts him at odds with most Democrats on the issue. Some years back, he reversed his opposition to the death penalty and now supports it in some cases.

While he is known as the governor who signed the nation's first statewide gay civil unions bill, his supporters and detractors alike say he did little to push the idea until the state Supreme Court forced the legislature's hand. When pressed on the subject of gay marriage before he signed the bill (in private, by the way) he was quoted as saying: "I'm uncomfortable, just like anybody else."

Dean's last election in 2000 was his toughest and he faced challenges from the left and the right. His Republican challenger, Ruth Dwyer made much of his signing the civil unions bill. And Progressive Party candidate Anthony Pollina, who garnered 10 percent of the vote, attacked Dean relentlessly for abandoning universal health care and prescription drug price controls and for opting out of state's public campaign financing system.

But more recently, Dean has come under fire from some liberal activists. Some of Dean's foreign policy statements lead them to argue that anti-war stalwart Rep. Dennis Kucinich (Ohio) is a better choice for president.

Dean, for instance, irked some liberals by suggesting that the U.S. military is understaffed in Iraq. Earlier this year, he angered some by suggesting that his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict were closer to the conservative America-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) than the liberal Americans for Peace Now (APN).


“I just got a note in the mail from Dean begging for money in which he states that he *is* a progressive - what a lying a**hole. One minute he's laughing at people who call him progressive, the next he's begging for money from us and says he is one. Jerk.” http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/269121.shtml


http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/001560.php
Liberals' Hope Is a Vermont Centrist
As Vermont governor, Howard Dean was known as a buttoned-down and bottom-line chief executive. He fought higher taxes, cut programs over the cries of fellow Democrats and often sided with business when the choice was jobs versus the environment.

Which explains why many people back home scarcely recognize Howard Dean the presidential candidate, who has stirred liberals across the country with his blunt talk and passionate antiwar speeches.

"A lot of us laugh and say, 'Howard, we hardly knew you,' " said Elizabeth Ready, the state auditor and a liberal Democrat. Added Bob Sherman, a Democratic lobbyist, "The Howard Dean I see running for president is a lot different than the Howard Dean who ... governed Vermont. He was a moderate."

…….Indeed, as he seeks the White House, Dean makes no secret of his more conservative side. He boasts of repeatedly balancing Vermont's budget, even though state law allows deficit spending. He touts his friendly relations with the National Rifle Assn., saying gun control is an issue best left to each state. He expresses mistrust of the left and right, describing himself as a centrist. "I have always been very skeptical of ideologues," he said.

But Dean, who left office in January after 11 1/2 years as governor, has backed away from certain positions that could prove politically troublesome. In 1995, advocating a balanced federal budget, he suggested cutting Social Security, defense spending, Medicare and veterans' pensions. He no longer favors those steps.

……"He kind of acted as a brake on the Democrats in the Legislature that were more to the left of him," said Jan Backus, a former Democratic state senator. "He tended to be an incrementalist."

Dean also was on good terms with Vermont's business community — a relationship some considered too cozy. "His top advisors were all money people, brokers and bankers," said Ready, a regular Dean adversary when she served in the Legislature.

While Dean was instrumental in preserving hundreds of thousands of acres of open space, critics say he was too willing to capitulate to developers and allow growth that contributed to sprawl and the pollution of Lake Champlain, Vermont's natural gem.

"If the question was enticing new business in the state, giving them what they wanted or needed in terms of permits, locations, you could pretty much predict Howard would come down on the side of what business wanted, even if meant sprawling development," said Patrick Parenteau, a law professor at Vermont Law School and a former state environmental commissioner.

……..But the matter of civil unions — like the governorship itself — was foisted on him by external events.

In 1999, the state Supreme Court unanimously decreed that gay couples were due the same legal rights of marriage as heterosexuals. Dean left it to lawmakers to respond, saying only that he would not sign a bill permitting gay marriage.



http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg107010.html

……"'His being called a liberal is one of the great white lies of the campaign,' said Tom Salmon, a fellow Democrat and governor of Vermont for two terms during the Nixon-Ford era. 'He's a rock-solid fiscal conservative.'"

Nieves allowed Dean to deny the tag: "'I think it's pathetic that I'm considered the left-wing liberal,' Dean said. 'It shows just how far to the right this country has lurched.'" Nieves noted: "Over and over on the campaign trail, he tells audiences that he is a fiscal conservative who believes balanced budgets serve the cause of social justice."

……Reporter Sarah Schweitzer wrote "Dean's record isn't radically left-leaning" because "he advocates a balanced federal budget" and "received top ratings from the National Rifle Association and supports the death penalty in some cases."

……On ABC's This Week July 6, reporter Michel Martin replied to Paul Gigot's insistence that Dean was driving the other contenders left by claiming: "The irony being, of course, that he wasn't a terribly liberal governor. He was in fact, a moderate."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A4798-2003Jul30¬Found=true

Howard Dean is not a liberal – or so say the liberals who know him best in his home state of Vermont.

"He governed from the middle," says former state Sen. Jan Backus.

Ironically, some of Vermont's Democratic Party stalwarts say Dean's centrism sent liberals running from their party to the ultra-liberal Progressive Party -- handing some elected offices to Republicans.

…….Vermont liberals say Dean's governing history suggests more of a political tactician, a strategic opportunist who will ultimately run a campaign that inspires the middle as well as the left. Dean -- who gained early momentum with his staunch anti-war talk -- has sought recently to broaden his rhetoric and become known for something other than anti-war diatribes.

"Dean a liberal? It's ludicrous. Ludicrous!" says Peter Freyne, a writer for the Burlington, Vt., alternative weekly Seven Days, which has taken Dean to task in recent years for, among other things, opposing the legalization of medical marijuana. "He was always Mr. Law and Order. This is a guy who grew up in Manhattan, the son and grandson of people who worked on Wall Street. He's not from Ben and Jerry's Birkenstock land."

Freyne said people are giving too much credence to Dean's war opposition, as though that alone is enough to qualify him as a flaming liberal.

"It's a bit odd, isn't it, that someone who is against a very questionable military invasion is by definition a liberal?" Freyne says.


http://www.deaninthenews.com/DeanVolunteers/press_view.asp?ID=1034
…......His entire time in Vermont politics, going back to his days in the Legislature, as lieutenant governor and as governor in the '90s, there was never a sentence in any newspaper in the state of Vermont that contained the word 'liberal' and 'Howard Dean.'
-- Vermont reporter Peter Freyne,




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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here is some more stuff
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. great - another thread - with a slight twist
that fits with a bunch of other threads on this topic.

I appreciate your point - but could you make it on one of the existing threads?

Or is no discussion besides Clark or Dean allowed in GD anymore? Because the net effect of starting a thread that fits with several existing threads and that will result in a mirror Dean thread is pushing ALL substantive ISSUE topics off of the front page. Within minutes.

Sorry but this is frustrating.

*this is todays pat response to the proliferation of identical threads that has shut down all other conversations among people, on issues, that are about beating BUSH, fighting back against BUsh policies, but devoid of clark or dean.* If ya'll can spam the forum - then I can spam your threads.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's come down to a battle between the two- it's only natural
Did you even read the post? It's NOT a repeat of what everyone elese is saying. I'm pointing out that WE have partly foisted a label onto Dean that doesn't fit....
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. why would I bother
ya'll are on some kind of trip. Have you spent time reading about the energy policy that is about to be voted on in a few days - that could radically change things for electrical consumers and citizens in this country? Have you read about the push for the new generation of nuclear weapons sitting in congress- that seems to also be related to a portion of said energy bill? What about the rollbacks in the EPA that are happening right now?

If you are going to perpetuate behavior that ensures that current fights to stop congress and bush now will not be up long enough to be read or spur action - then why the hell would i waste the time reading your or any other dean/clark war thread about a primary that is months away.

Ya'll have really lost perspective.
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. it looks like we are trying to stop the bickering. I give up.
we end up pushing this threads to the top.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. don't read them....
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. but you all are posting so many of them
that it is like a concerted effort to shut up any other kind of discussion. THAT is the point where it steps on everyone elses toes. It is the sheer volume of almost identical topic threads (re: SPAM) that makes it impossible for any other discussion. If it were 5 out of 20 threads could ignore them. When it is 15 out of 20 with a new (identical) thread starting every minute - it is impossible to keep up with any issue/policy/news item because the SPAM is blocking it from the front page.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm sure it will die down. Things will be back to normal tomorrow...
People are just "venting" today due to the Dean interview....
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. perhaps - or perhaps a new norm has been set.
perhaps this is the future of DU GD. No substance on issues. No parsing the news to get down to the meat. No calls for action on issues. Just one big candidate fight and refutation. Twenty four hours a day. SOmeone will post an action to support a dem filibuster for the next atrocious judicial nominee. And noone will notice. There is a primary coming up and folks may not have read this thing even if it has been posted before (not refering to your post here but the pattern of late in gd) before...

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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Clark? Dean?
These two are the "status quo". It is already evident that they will do anything to maintain the "status quo". I don't want any part of either two.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. You couldn't be more wrong about Dean
Funded by The People -- virtually all his contributions are from everyday folk.

Empowering The People. "YOU have the power," he exhorts us. AND he and his campaign listen to us very, very carefully. It's the first Open Source, Interative Presidential Campaign in history.

Nothing status quo about that.

Eloriel
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. Let me start off by saying
Yeah but........



CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
"I'm going to give them the TRUTH and they'll THINK it's hell."
Retyred IN FLA.

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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. No
You are. Dean never called himself a liberal. That was the doing of the press and the repugs.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Dean HAS called himself a "progressive" , sent mailings, etc.
It's like a little game he's playing....

“I just got a note in the mail from Dean begging for money in which he states that he *is* a progressive - what a lying a**hole. One minute he's laughing at people who call him progressive, the next he's begging for money from us and says he is one." http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/269121.shtml

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/269121.shtml
Will the Real Howard Dean Please Stand Up? Don't hold your breath

In 1995, Vermont reporters were writing stories suggesting that Dean actually delighted in the confusion about his ideological leanings. In 1995, after making a round of national news shows, Dean seemed almost to brag: "These guys think they're getting a raving liberal. And then they find out I'm not a raving liberal. I'm kind of in the middle and, for example, I'm in favor of workfare. Then they sort of don't know what to say. All the questions they've carefully written down to fry me go out the window."

I suspect we'd rather not actually know who the real Howard Dean is. He just pulled the wool over everyone's eyes thanks to AP news and reporters who can't bother to research or question - in CA this week he said he supports the Kyoto Protocol, when in fact, he's on record as not supporting it. No one said anything about it, and now the average cheering fan thinks Dean supports Kyoto.

It's surprising that the WP is even raising this question since they're the ones essentially giving birth to his presidency as it is by never mentioning anyone except him.

But don't hold your breath on EVER knowing the real Dean.


“Asked whether her son is a liberal, Dean’s mother told Cloud, “He’s not really...I just hope they don’t find that out just yet.” http://www.time.com/time/style/printout/0,8816,472817,00.html
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Labels are for cans, not people!
The words are TOTALLY useless...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Damn you're right. He's definitely far TOO LIBERAL to win the general
election.

That's why we need to throw our support to candidates who have no chance and/or establishment candidates!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. Dean's a centrist. He's always been and said he was a centrist.
Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. But wouldn't you agree that a lot of his supporters don't see that?
He does - but then he turns around and calls himself a "Progressive" or that he's from the "Democratic Wing" of the Democratic Party.

I think a lot of them think that he is the "Progressive" candidate. Due to his stance on environmental issues - he is MOST decidely NOT.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. So you think a lot of his supporters are idiots?
Edited on Sun Sep-28-03 10:21 PM by stickdog
Sorry.

We know Dean's record.

He's centrist on many issues (especially the budget and gun control), "near left" on many others and full on liberal on civil rights.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. Maybe you do but most people don't follow the issues
How can you stomach his actions with regards to the environment and civil liberties? He's almost worse than Bush.

I don't know why people on this board are so complacent about this. Guess there's not too many environmentalists here....

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. I think his supporters are the folks most aware that he's a centrist
Edited on Sun Sep-28-03 10:36 PM by w4rma
because his supporters are most likely to hear him speak directly or read his blog or talk among themselves about Dean. Others are more likely to get their information through the corporate media filter which tends to follow the Republican talking points.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. Nope, not at all...his supporters know he's not a liberal
It's the people who say "Dean's too liberal to be elected" (usually the supporters of the MORE liberal candidates) who claim to dislike Dean so much from all they read about him. It's pretty hysterical because IF those detractors had actually bothered to check out where he stands on things and what his record is they wouldn't think he's a liberal. A bit of advice...go to www.deanforamerica.com and read what his positions are and what his record is. That's really all it takes to figure out he's not a liberal, but is, in fact, essentially a moderate/centrist with slight leanings to the left on social issues and slight leaning to the right on fiscal issues. In other words, he's perfectly "electable".
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. or is Gen. Clark now trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
and are we going to let him? Unlike Dean here is a man who admits he voted Republican even for Reagan and Nixon and the first Bush in 1988. He also spoke, only two years ago at a Republican fund raiser.
Now he is saying a lot of the right things but can we be sure that once he is in the White House he won't govern like the DINO so many people on DU call Zell Miller?

In my opinion the one good thing to come out of Clark's GOP past is that it will get harder for people who support Clark to go around putting Dean down as some kind of conservative despite all the liberal things he did in Vermont, a left of center state where he was elected five times as Governor. Is Dean a raging Liberal? No, but he has some pronounced liberal tendencies and a record to back it up.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Perhaps - but he sure sounds like a Democrat to me. He has very
Democratic stances on the issue. I don't see how he could even try to pretend he's a Republican.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. Cute, you seem to have left out the parts/quotes that don't suit
your purpose. Imagine that :eyes:

"Last week I asked Dean's mother Andree Maitland Dean of East Hampton, N.Y., whether her son is truly a liberal insurgent. "He's not really," she said. A beat passed, and she added with a chuckle, "I hope they don't find that out just yet."

That's a great thing about the Deans: they are funny, they are quick, they are direct."

One example of your tainted reporting is noted above.

By the way, it's no newsflash that Dean is centrist on some issues, liberal on others.


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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. lot of indymedia cites
Wonder if there isn't a bit of sour grapes in the Indymedia pieces. Dean has mobilized thousands of people. The folks on the left are just green with envy, I'm sure.
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. Yawn
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SweetZombieJesus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
23. Way to elevate the discourse!
Toilet Monkey approves!

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Trek234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. He and Clark both are
Dean wants to pretend to be a liberal when he is really very moderate.

Clark wants to pretend to be a democrat when he is really a republican plant.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Newflash: it's primary season
when the candidates play to the base, because the base votes in primaries.

In the general election, the nominee will tack to the center. That's what they in both parties.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
26. He is who he says he is.
He never claimed to be anything different.

And Clark? Aside from his obligatory boilerplate, what do we know other than his past actions and words - which were decidely not in support of Democratic issues or candidates--in fact, Clark has expressed more support for the worst elements of the opposition and you complain that Dean isn't the progressive he is framed as by the liberal-bashing Right?



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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I have to agree with you on that
I know you may not like my candiate Webster but I do agree with you on this, how do we know what Clark is? Its a valid question and I hope you get an answer. I tell you this, I am glad more and more are wondering about Clark now.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. and more and more
Clark comes out with leftist/progressive statements,and yet people still feel comfortable calling him a republican plant.

I maintain that Clark is decidedly to the left of Howard Dean. That's why I'm supporting him. I want a true progressive president.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. I dont consider him a republican plant dookus
I want a progressive too thats why I support Kucinich. I dont care really but I dont think your guy is a GOP plant but I dont think he is my candiate. So I prefer the more centrist Dean to Clark. Dean isnt my number two.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
31. Dean gets called a liberal for ONE REASON
Because he spoke the fuck up when the other candidates were hiding in their shells.

That is:

a) A credit to Dean

b) A sad damn commentary on the status of politics in America

c) Not pertinent to his policy views

d) All of the above.

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Answer: d
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Evanstondem Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. A good response as usual
and as succinct as the original post was overblown.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
34. No, Dean isn't a liberal, and he never claimed to be
He's not a conservative either. For the most part he's a moderate who leans left on social issues and leans right on fiscal issues. He does agree with some liberal issues and has the ability to present those issues in a way that helps moderates accept and support those causes. He's very difficult to label. As a Vermonter who is very familiar with Dean I will say this...Howard Dean is an honest man, a great leader and he always does what he honestly believes is best for the people he serves, not what is most advantageous for him. He's got great political ethics. His supporters know he's not a liberal and have all along. Some of his supporters are liberals, but there are just as many moderates, swing voters and even people who have never voted before who support him as well. The honesty and political ethics as well as his willingness to speak for those people who are very frustrated with where this country is going is why he's done so well. He has a great record, is working damn hard and his positions make sense. The only people who think Dean is some ultra liberal are the people who haven't bothered to do their homework about him. That would be Bush supporters and people who were foolish enough to just believe the media instead of looking for themselves.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. If trth be known--he meets all criterior of DLC
Very early on Pres. Clinton sated this. Dean himself has openly said
as Govenor he worked closely with Prs. Clinton and if you compare their records they are similar except one is Govenor and other is Pres. Dean got called a liberal because of his war stance and
if you remember at that time DLC had chosen Joe Lieberman as their candidate. We let liberal confuse the issues. This a guide I use--Pretty much I think all Dems are going to be liberal on Social Issues
,Abortioan, Moderate to Lib. Judges on Supreme court, Gay rights Environmental Issues,Affirmative Action.> so where do they stand on Economic Issues-Safey Net, SS Medicare, Welfare-quality of life issues. Dean is a budget balancer and deficit hawk. This measn he will have to be very sparing when it comes to quality of life programs and edcation since there is only a small amount of money left. Vermont has a conservative streak when it comes to spending on
qality of life issues, A lot of people like this they do not want to pay taxes. Social Liberals and Conservative on Economic s is trademark of DLC. BillClinton was a DLCer but kept enough of his
Liberal roots to take a stand against Republians. Lets hope all of ou candidates can do this. It depends on how liberal they are in their bones.

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