60% of the people think creationism should be taught in public schools

[still_one]

just heard on the Jerry Springer show that a Newswwek poll said that 60% of those surveyed thought creationism should be taught

Sorry, but there will be a lot more pain, before this is reversed

I am convienced the only way this country will learn is if they pay for the consequences of their actions

More jobs will be exported, and the standard of living will fall. This will have the most immediate effect on the morans who support the current policy. Maybe then they will feel the pain.

We are off-shoring highly technical jobs. It is already being felt here. You hear the comments, we don't have enough qualified people, that is why they need to off shore. The truth is the CEOs created the situation we are in NOW. Once we lose the technological edge, then we become a second rate power. NAFTA and CAFTA will help lead us their faster. Maybe then they will feel the pain

United airlines was just the start. People who worked all their lives, and paid into a pension, now have 50% of what they thought they would get because a bush appointed judge deemed it so. When they realize they cannot afford to retire, maybe then they will start to feel the pain

We are spending one billion dollars a week in Iraq, NOT including the loss of life, yet there is still a majority that believe we must stay the course on a mistake that the best we can hope for is a Shiite theocracy, and the worst is all out civil war. It is doomed to failure, but until we feel the loss at home as we did in Viet Nam, it doesn't exist. Maybe then they will feel the pain

When people start having their healthcare rationed, maybe then they will start to feel the pain

Polls say 70% of the people support Roe V Wade. They obviously do NOT believe it can be overturned. Maybe then they will start to feel the pain

When they realize that they can't retire or afford to send their kids to college maybe then they will start to feel the pain

But most important until they realize that all the above issues are the things that really count, and NOT flag burning, gay marriage, or creationism, things will NOT get better

[corkhead]

1. did the poll get freeped? nt

[still_one]

3. I don't know I just heard it on AAR

I didn't see the poll myself or the actual breakdown

perhaps that is what happened

[tk2kewl]

2. I think it's time for me to...

exit stage left!

[Pachamama]

7. This is just too incredible for my mind to even handle....

:nuke:

How, how can there be so many STUPID people in this country?

:scared:

Maybe Darwin wasn't right....these people are multiplying....then again, maybe he was right and these people are going to destroy themselves....but then again, these flat earth, rapture-ready people are going to wipe us all out along with 1/2 the earth's species....

[smirkymonkey]

65. Exactly what I was thinking...

Survival of the dumbest.

[rfranklin]

4. As they suffer they will cling harder to their loony beliefs...

Voodoo, shamanism, Christianity, and Islam are all of a piece. Religion is a way of dealing with the scary aspects of life (like sickness and death.) As times get worse, there will be more demand for exorcisms and scrificial lambs. It's been true throughout the ages. Why would human nature change now?

[still_one]

6. I do believe eventually we will come out of the dark ages

[NEOBuckeye]

8. Yes, we will. But sometimes, that time is very long in arriving.

[Justitia]

5. The Inmates are running The Asylum -eom

[tocqueville]

9. it doesn't surprise me

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll3.htm

An Associated Press survey in 1997 revealed that 24% of American adults expect to be still alive when Jesus returns. Many of these probably believe that they will be raptured (elevated from the earth to be with Jesus) and thus will never experience death.

A poll conducted for Newsweek magazine in 1999-JUN asked American adults whether they believed that Jesus would return during the next millennium -- i.e. between years 2001 and 3000 CE.

Results were: All persons surveyed : 52%

Evangelical Protestants: 71%
Non-Evangelical Protestants: 48%
Roman Catholics: 47%
Non-Christians: 20%

check even the comparison with other christian countries

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_comp.htm

the US are formally a secular country, but only on the surface.

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. Not to question your sources, but

20% of non-christians expect Jesus to return?

Or am I misreading your post?

[tocqueville]

38. no you are quoting right

but it can mean that muslims, buddhists etc... answer yes from the perspective from their own religion. Specially muslims since they consider that Jesus is a prophet. Millions of muslims believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross, but retreated to the far east and lived a long life there.

Non-Christians doesn't have to mean atheists.

[jonkronz2003]

10. Easy to do

Teacher on first day of class:

"Welcome children to biology. Today we're going to discuss alternatives to Darwin's evolutionary theory. Some people believe that some kind of supreme diety created the world and all life in the blink of an eye 5000 years ago or so. For more details on this, go to church. Now on to real science."

[napi21]

11. If creationism were taught as an unproven belief of the Christians,

would you still think it's a problem?

Now don't attack me here. All I'm asking is, if BOTH evolution AND creationism is taught, why do you see a problem?

When I listen to historians on cspan talk about our forefathers and explaining what they were like as people, I find it very interesting! I HATED History class when I was in school.

Why is it wrong to explain to students that there are multiple views on the beginning of man?

[jonkronz2003]

14. Your last sentence summed up the entire carriculum...

You can't teach creationism, ID or any rw christian belief without teaching native american beliefs (each tribe's), buddist, amazon tibal lore, etc etc.

Evolution is founded on scientific priciples that say that a theory must be testable and the results repeatable. Creationism has nothing that's testable in it's theory. It's all based on faith which by definition is religion, not science.

[markus]

17. No, they do not

No less authority than the likely next Chief Justice Mr. Scalia has clearly stated that the religion clause in the Constitution does not apply to religions outside of what the founding fathers would have reasonably considered a religion. Judaism, Xianity and Islam are OK. The rest of you people would not have "real" religions, per decision of the government.

None of this, in his mind, contravense the Constitution.

And there are people who think that this man is not mad. I'd rather see Chief Justice SpongeBob Square Pants, presiding over Justices Ed, Edd and Eddy.

Anyone who can enunciate the above with a straight face is either a sociopath, or is unfit to manage his own affairs, much less mine.

If you want the original quote, I'll have to dredge it out of outlook at home. It was from something I saw on Alterman's MSNBC Blog from one of his correspondents.

[Justitia]

20. Hey, I'd vote for your Supreme Court make-up! -eom

[wli]

24. the Founding Fathers were mostly Deists

So there's some cracksmoking going on there. Not that this is a new phenomenon.

[jonkronz2003]

25. Thanks for enlightening me...

That means we should definately only worship the christian/jewish god (Not sure the founding fathers were big on islam, so perhaps we can just ignore that one for now) while we're all engaging in orgies..

[Lannes]

18. I disagree

There are many religions that have their own creationist views.If we were to teach one,wouldnt we have to teach them all to represent the cross section of different religious beliefs in America? What happens when one is left out,do they have the right to sue?

It would take up a great deal of class time to discuss all these creationist theories,taking away time to teach actual science.

Some schools teach comparative religion.That would be the ideal place to teach creationism.That would be the place to show that there are many
religions with theories on how the earth was created,not just a Christian one.

[Cats Against Frist]

51. Bingoooooo -- comparative religion, as an elective course

But do you think it would shut them the fuck up? Hell no -- they WANT indoctrination. I've long thought that we should draw a line, in the sand, and say -- look -- we'll have an elective sex ed class, and an elective comparative religion class.

If they want to have creationism taught as science, they need to go to their own private schools.

[rman]

19. Belief has no place in science class

Belief is not scientific theory, and science class is about scientific theories.

In every day life the term "belief" is routinely used metaphorically - not implying religious belief. But the same term is used as equivalent to religious belief.
Yet 'ordinary' belief is not the same as religious belief.

So when people speak of "believing in the theory of evolution", it is not the same kind of belief as "believing that a higher power was involved in the creation of the universe".

The difference is that a scientific theory involves evidence, while religious belief (including ID and Creationism) does not.

[Stirk]

21. Because it's not science. I have no problem at all with schools

explaining the Creationist story in a comparitive religion class. But it's not science and it doesn't belong in a science classroom.

[still_one]

23. here is my problem

creationism can be taught as part of a comparitive religion course, NOT SCIENCE

Creationism puts faith in a "being" which CANNOT BE PROVED. IT IS FAITH

Evolution on the otherhand is based on observation, and DNA tracing, a big difference

prove to me the existence of God?

[ComerPerro]

36. Because you can't teach them together

Creationism is based only on vague Biblical accounts. Evolution is a theory based on observation and gathering data and is open to criticism.

[Sparkman]

57. Why leave out other religious accounts of creation? Thats real discrim'tn

[xynthee]

12. So you don't know if it's a regular poll or an online poll??

HUGE difference.

I can't seem to find any mention of it on Newsweek's web page. I'd like to learn more about this before I start packing my bags.

[greyl]

13. Which of the two creation myths in Genesis would they want?

Rhetorical question.

I suppose 95% of the 70% are only aware of one.

Not to mention the arrogance of singling out 1 creation myth from the hundreds as the superior one.

[Gato Moteado]

15. the fundies don't even send their little pasty faced offspring.....

....to public schools so what do they care? the ones that can't afford the overpriced baptist or evangelical schools keep their kids at home and homeschool them.

[Puzzler]

16. The problem is...

... often with the way that the actual poll question is (or questions are) worded.

For example, I am an atheist, but I would have no problem with some religious doctrines/myths or whatever being taught at schools IN THE APPROPRIATE CLASS... ie: a comparative religious studies class. But not in a science class. Do the poll questions make this distinction clear? If not, then I believe that it would tend to bias the answers more to the "Yes" side.

-P

[Gato Moteado]

30. good points

and, if the evangelical schools want to teach it as science, that's fine with me. but public schools have no business teaching theology (no matter what religion) in a science class.

if the fundy schools want to churn out a bunch of anti-science republicans, that's fine....i'm sure someone in india or china will be happy to do the technical jobs they wish to forfeit.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Re, creationism, this is a situation where 'feeling the pain' won't help.

During bad economic times people turn to religion, spiritualism and the supernatural to find relief from the material world.

The very thing that is setting up the bad economics is what they will turn to. It will become self-reinforcing, like in the dark ages, where the people were repressed by their religion, and turned to religion for solace - a cycle that didn't break until a new religion, the protestant reformation, came along. And the wars that sparked killed millions, and continue to this day.

I fear that we are on a downward spiral to medievalism.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. "Nobody ever went broke overstimating the stupidity of the American

people." H.L. Mencken

[Double T]

27. And then we wonder why George W. Bush was supposedly reelected.....

proof positive that religion IN politics is NOT a good thing.

[jonkronz2003]

29. He wasn't reelected...

he was created on the 6th day of supreme court deliberations..........

[Double T]

33. Religion IN The Judiciary Is Also NOT A Good Thing......

[MN ChimpH8R]

31. DEVO was right

There is evolution and there is de-evolution. The masses are de-evolving at a terrifying rate. Reality is just too scary and indeterminate for them to take. Freepers and fundies are just too scary for me to take. :scared: :grr:

[bornskeptic]

32. Here is the Newsweek article on the poll.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6650997/site/newsweek/?GT1=5936

I find this the really scary part:
Forty percent favor teaching creation science instead of evolution in public schools; 44 percent oppose the idea."

[wli]

37. this is incredibly bad

I need to get on the phone with the consulate of some country today.

[wli]

34. time for me to flee the country for my life

This can only mean one thing: there's a new Inquisition coming.

[ComerPerro]

35. Its all push polling bullshit

They ask people "should creationism be taught", then give choices like "yes, it should" "yes, but should be tought alongside evolution" "yes, we should offer all views to our children" and "no".

Then they take all of the first three responses together and come up with that figure.

Of coure, the middle two reasons are bullshit. If someone says they it should be thought with evolution, then its deceptive to pretend that they are flat-out advocating intelligent design. And the very notion of "wanting all ideas to be heard" is just an outright lie. Advocates of ID don't want all views, they don't even want Evolutionary Theory. They just want their view.


Unfortunately, religion cannot be taught as science. And, without religion or a god (ie: A CREATOR) there can be no intelligent design.

[DiverDave]

39. I think this says it all:

An age is called Dark not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.

James Michener, "Space"

[emcguffie]

40. That's precisely why we have separation of church and state.

So the majority cannot cram their religion down the throats of everyone else.

[markus]

41. You can change those poll results today

The reason a large bloc of people in the middle might say this is that they don't want to offend Bobby and Linda across the street, who are *so* nice and feel *so* strongly about this. I mean, it's in the Bible and all. Why not make them happy.

You have to (but not too stridently) make it clear to everyone that you are offended. Going along with the religious right cannot be the comfortable position or we lose.

As long as it's a matter of the assumptions 1) well, we're all Christians mostly aren't we and 2) what harm can it do? we lose this one big time. We must make it a divisive issue (pick a side, now), in which case the mushy middle would just rather it go away.

[porphyrian]

42. Yeah, Newsweek prints quotable factual data...

...and a gorilla is flying out of my ass as I type.

[grumpy old fart]

43. and about 10% can name more than 2 commandments..................

The Harper's article this month, "The Christian Paradox", cites some fun statistics and make some great points. 80% of Amerika considers themselves Christian, but haven't the foggiest idea what the Bible actually says, or what Jesus actually taught.

http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. This was NOT true 40 years ago

I would bet that the majority of the people who think that creationism should be taught are under 45, graduates of the dumbed-down school systems of the 1970s and 1980s, when all kinds of odd experiments in curriculum and scheduling were carried out in high schools.

An unholy alliance of pampering parents and idiots from colleges of education who had to think up new ideas to pad their "research" resumes introduced "reforms" that resulted in a Curriculum Lite with few required subjects and lots of free time during the day.

We had evolution in biology class in both eighth and tenth grade in the mid 1960s, and only ONE student, a Jehovah's Witness, objected.

Science is too important to be an elective in the school curriculum. I'd make it a requirement all through high school, with an emphasis on what is science and what isn't.

[charlie]

47. Geez, you're so right

This ridiculous high-pitched battle just amazes me. Evolution was as uncontroversial as algebra back then.

Ostentatious displays of piety were considered bad form, practically bad manners. Religion was no less widespread, but there was little of this ugly mix of obsequiousness and smug cruelty I'm seeing all the time. Some days it seems like everyone is showboating for God. What the hell happened to people?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. I grew up in a suburb where everyone went to some church or other, but

we had no school prayer, no Bible reading in school, no students gathering for prayer before school, no creationism in science class, and no religious clubs in school.

There were two concessions: some churches took advantage of a Minnesota law that allows (allowed?) released time for religious instruction (my church didn't), and we sang Christmas carols.

That was it.

[charlie]

50. I grew up an Air Force brat

I was never a religious kid (I'm an atheist today) and I could freely mix without a guarded moment (with the short exception of the time I spent in Virginia, but that was an aberration), as long as I minded my manners. No more.

I once lived down the street from a Methodist minister. Swell guy, I played with his kids, he treated me kindly. After a long while, he invited me for a baptism. I liked him, so I accepted. Both of us knew it wouldn't take, but that didn't dampen his delight when I showed up. I never went back, he never gave me grief or treated me less warmly. I believe he thought he given me something valuable, a patina of grace or something. I miss that guy and people like him (They're still around of course, but hard to see amidst all the Cargo Cult Christians).

[grumpy old fart]

55. "cargo cult christians"? Hadn't heard that one before. Meaning? eom

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. The cargo cults were a phenomenon that occurred in Papua New Guinea

after WWII.

The indigenous people saw both Japanese and American troops fly in planeloads of supplies and build temporary bases that contained marvels the locals had never seen. Some of these goods were traded to the locals on the black market, but of course, the supply dried up after the end of the war.

The cargo cults were attempts by local shamans to make the planes come back with their goodies. They built images of airplanes and even cleared landing strips in the jungle, all in the hope that they could create the "magic" that would bring planes full of "cargo" back.

The cults died out in Papua New Guinea as the local people became more sophisticated, but I think the term is apt for the varieties of suburban fundamentalism that promise earthly riches to "good Christians."

[grumpy old fart]

61. Fascinating, thank you. Never heard of this before..........eom

[charlie]

58. Meaning

all cant and dogma, no self-reflection of any depth, focused outward (and they don't like what they see), little capacity for a quiet appreciation of existence, horrified with the messy grossness of the flesh... and like Cargo Cultists they think ornaments and strict adherence to rules will lift them out of their pinched impoverished lives and bring them something magical.

Edit: And what Lydia said. Thanks Lydia.

[etherealtruth]

52. You make an excellent point ...

...as a person attending Catholic and public schools in the 1970's (graduated HS in '80), there was no debate about evolution in school, it was taught ... there was no debate (even in the Catholic school).


By the time my oldest child was in school in Virginia (late 1990's), to our disbelief and horror "creationism" was mentioned along with evolution and teachers shared their beliefs that "all they (teacher) needed to know was in the bible."

I wonder how the polls turn out regionally. My experience was in metro Detroit and my child's experience came 20 years later in Virginia.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. Not only that

In the 1950s, everyone from Baptists to Jews celebrated Halloween. It was considered a cute, harmless holiday for children, where they could dress up as fantasy figures and gorge themselves on candy. The schools in my mid-sized city in Wisconsin held "Halloween parades," in which the students from each school marched in costume around the boundaries of their attendance district, encountering and cheering for the groups from the other schools.

By 1990, when my oldest niece was in grade school in a suburb of St. Paul, Halloween celebrations were banned, because brainwashed parents didn't want their children exposed to a "demonic" holiday.

A lot of the so-called "traditional values" that the right-wingers want to return to are actually new, radically reactionary values.

[etherealtruth]

60. "radically reactionary values"

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Ilsa]

45. Those 60% should take their kids to Sunday School and church. eom

[grumpy old fart]

49. yep, only 33% report attending church regularly...they want the State to..

do the job of the church cause they are too damn lazy to get up on Sunday. I'd say that 60% figure is a pretty damn soft number.....

[KansDem]

46. How many believe evolution should be preached in church?

That's the poll I'd like to see!

[pauldp]

53. Yes! Fair is fair. Darwin required reading from the pulpit! n/t

[SemperEadem]

54. fine, then it should not be graded

a student should get a notation in their records that they attended the class and fulfilled the requirement to take the class. There should be no grade to reflect the taking of the class. It is a philosophical concept, not scientific fact and unless it is being taught in a philosophy class, they should not be graded on it.

[CornField]

62. 30+ years ago, the vast majority of Americans believed

that marriage between people of different races should be outlawed. Matter of fact, many states had passed bans to that effect. It took a ruling of the Supreme Court to change the situation and call it what it really was: discrimination.

Did I mention that the arguments made against such marriages were Bible based?

People need to learn that they live in a free country where they can hold any personal beliefs they like. Those beliefs, however, are merely personal and should not be mistaken with laws of the land.

[KamaAina]

63. Why should WE have to suffer for THEIR stupidity?

Kick 'em out NOW!

[union_maid]

64. I believe it

We live on Long Island. Good schools. Dominant religions are Roman Catholicism and Judaism, not evangelical fundamentalism. When my daughter was single she had to develop a litmus test. On the first date, she'd try to find out if a guy believed in evolution. If not, that was that. She'd had it with dating a guy a few times and then finding out he was an idiot. She decided she needed to know up front. There were a LOT of idiots.