I see a lot of DUers using the term "PC" - what exactly is that?

[Ripley]

Whenever I see someone say "oh quit being so politically correct!" I immediately think of Rush telling one of his callers to "...take that bone out of your nose" and then crying about the criticism being "PC."

In fact, I have never heard a liberal describe something as PC (except here). I see liberals calling absurd rules, regulations, criticisms as just that...absurd. Stupid. Over-reaching. Paranoid. Over-reaction. Whatever.

Can those of you who use that term here to describe situations explain what political correctness is?

We all know people get uncomfortable with change. It's hard work (to borrow a phrase from the Chimperchainsawer this August) to change habits of speech, etc. But most of the time I see people blaming the victim when they are against PC.

Now, do I believe we should re-label everything "person" instead of "man" or "woman?" No. But words do evolve. Mailman is now mail carrier. What's wrong with that? It reflects the reality that there are just as many Mailwomen as there are Mailmen.

Just curious why so many DUers use the term.

[LeftNYC]

1. DiFi has ovaries...nt

[ronnykmarshall]

73. No she doesn't

she had a hysterectomy in 1990.

[ret5hd]

2. polycarbonite

[Lannes]

3. That post was so PC

Just kidding.In my opinion they are views that are the least controversial.That are easy to espouse because they know you wont get much of an argument from anyone.

[sui generis]

7. all in the ear of the beholder

for instance, if you were to post a thread in the style of The Onion, titled, "Entire Island of Aruba Searches for Missing Blonde White Chick",

some people here would totally get the absurdity of the title, and others would careen out of their way to personally be outraged on behalf of "blonde white chicks" everywhere accuse you of being a misogynist, sexist, blonde-hating freepery sort of guy . . . even if you were queer.

The best thing is if you can't see who you're talking to, never assume familiarity. Us gay folk call ourselves queer, and we mostly trust that most people here on DU who use the word "queer" mean it with zero baggage attached.

However, over on freeperublic someone using the word queer is most likely using it in a derogatory manner.

And remember no matter how carefully PC you think you might be you will always be offending SOMEONE. In fact, I am offended that you were entirely toooo PC, on behalf of the permanently outraged, everywhere!!!!

:nuke: . . . .:evilgrin: :hi:

[Ripley]

13. If you were to post satire, do you think some women don't ..

understand satire? Who would careen out of their way? And what the hell does "even if you were queer" mean? Gay men are exempt from being misogynist and sexist???? News to me pal.

Your sarcasm is fine. But you really said nothing. Yes, some people are on "permanent outrage" settings. But I'd like to know why you think PC is not a Republican tool that has been used to attack reforms in areas like racism, sexism, homophobia, etc?

[sui generis]

23. see, that response was impolite

let's break it down.

Don't call me pal if you are going to address me like that.

I did say "something", your lofty judgement notwithstanding. Were you one of the people accusing me of being misogynistic and sexist? I don't recall. I hope not, because that is unfinished business.

"PC" is not a Republican tool - it's the lament of people who do not wish to practice sensitivity among strangers. Yes you are partially right it has been used to attack by master arch strategist republican villains, but mostly most republicans are too damn stupid and thick headed to do it consciously. I never said that it wasn't used to attack reforms - I had a different direction in my reply. If I had meant to say that I would have said it directly.

Having to be polite is difficult and inconvenient for some people. Among friends there are a lot more "allowances" we make. You do not speak for me, or on my behalf, as I do not for you. Please don't speak on behalf of all women everywhere in misinterpreting my comments. I do believe SOME people understand satire, regardless of their sex.

Now then, I posted my opinion. I did not ask you to come careening in with rudeness or posturing. My sarcasm is not subject to your judgement or criticism, so of course it's "fine". Having said all that, I actually agree with you, so your attack was pointless. :shrug:

[Ripley]

31. lol

You said: some people here would totally get the absurdity of the title, and others would careen out of their way to personally be outraged on behalf of "blonde white chicks" everywhere accuse you of being a misogynist, sexist, blonde-hating freepery sort of guy . . . even if you were queer.

Where did I attack you? You mean when I asked a question? The question being....do you think no queer is sexist?

Huh. Imagine that. A guy saying I'm attacking him when he makes an absurd statement like "even if you were queer" as if queer men couldn't possibly participate in the hatred of women.

I think all the fucking men, gay or not, who design and promote shoes that distort women's feet into unnatural, sometimes hideous deformed pieces of flesh they have to endure pain with daily...to be just that...hateful to women. Same with the guys Gay or Not that design corsetted breast and abdominal binding clothing.

I notice no men wear these binding, deforming clothes. So what is it? Love?

You're funny. I attacked you? Where?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

39. Oh, now I'm a bigot if men design painful deforming clothing.

How does that make me hate men? Never said women didn't design that shit either. And Phyllis Schlafly exists doesn't she?

Why don't you answer my question about queers?

[sui generis]

45. edited for even more civility

If I had posted something like that about women you would be taking me apart, and I would deserve it.

To answer your irrelevant question about "queers", of course we can be sexist and bigoted. So what is your point? Try to be constructive and friendly - there's no need for anger.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XemaSab]

49. Women are partners in their own degradation

by wearing that shit.

I wear doc martens and tennis shoes. I think I last wore a shoe with a heel last year.

Don't blame men for the horrors of the fashion industry.

[Moochy]

51. But high heels make their rumps look ... (eh forget it)

Good point, I was just going to post something about women's complicity in self-inflicted fashion pain. There is a geometric / visual aspect to high heels, and standing on your toes makes your legs look longer, and the rump area more taut, since you are struggling to not fall over.

I personally have never found high heels attractive because of the extremely awkward gait. Especially so after my GF in college sprained her ankle and we had to go to the hospital. (she was a klutz... :))

So painful looking! but to each their own. It's sad though that the scions of fashion push such a misogynistic ideal of female beauty.
That being said some women can pull it off and have no problem with stillettos, (or so they say, slaves to fashion? ) :shrug:

[Ripley]

52. Okay.

You're right...women CHOOSE to wear foot deforming shoes. But why might one ask?

To look S...........E.............X...........Y! Hell, yeah!

I do blame men. They are the intended target for these shoes. Come on. Do you think women would walk around in an office in foot deforming shoes without thinking they look GREAT AND FUCKABLE THE WAY THEY ARE S-U-P-P-O-S-E-D-T-O!?

Unfortunately today too many women buy the shit up. But gee, doesn't that get into the whole advertising, clothes designing, TV show promoting, female actor fantasizing shit we see about how WOMEN are supposed to look physically? Feet in this instance. To seem "pretty" "normal" "professional" "sexual" whatever.

Tell me again what men do on a daily basis to painfully alter their body to appear "normal." (gym not included...women are expected to do that too.)

Okay, I guess a tie is required for some guys. But that doesn't distort their necks into this:

[Moochy]

54. Head Vices

I place my head in a vice to make sure it's pointy and sharp.


It's up to each woman to stand up to this crap, and up to each individual man to make sure he doesnt enforce foot binding shoes.

Sure you can assign blame for this to all men, and what a very productive analysis. :eyes:

[Ripley]

56. I didn't blame ALL Men.

I blame the men in the "beauty industry" that set the bar.

Is that PC?

[Kraklen]

64. Hey, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Is it PC to blame the men in the "beauty industry" for high heel-induced deformities?

Maybe if they're the ones wearing the high heels.

[Moochy]

65. Damn that Ralph Lauren!!

I dont' call things PC, unless I'm talking about my computer.

Blaming the men in the "beauty industry" is not helpful. Women work in that industry too and are championing the same sexist ideals.

Individual men and women must be responsible for their own actions, and men who push these harmful body image stereotypes are guilty of perpetuating that brand of sexism.

Now one can make the argument that young women are invisibly compelled to conform to sexist ideals of fashion, and I would agree. That is why it is imporant to arm young men and women with the tools necessary to decode advertising messages. All advertising seeks to make a hole in you, and fill it with their product.

Surely men play a part, as part of the supposed target audience for sexist clothing and body ideals. An ideal can be sexist. A person can be sexist. To Blame all men in the fashion industry for this ideal is not "PC" it's just too simplistic for me, and ultimately a cop-out.

Thanks for a lively discussion! :)
cheers!

[XemaSab]

55. Both men and women

buy into media stereotypes of what they're supposed to look like.

Women moreso than men, but men do it too. Hence all the ads for baldness treatments, penis enlargements, men's hair dye, and so on.

But people choose to play into that crap. Everyone picks their own image, be it goth, hausfrau, birder dork, hippie, surfer, what have you.

Women who wear painful shoes do so for their own inscrutible reasons. Other people don't make this decision for them. They do. Part of it is cliquish and cultural, but lemme tell ya, I'd never wear high heels on more than a very irregular basis. If I dressed like that, I'd be misrepresenting who I am, and I wouldn't be true to myself.

And this is something that every woman needs to decide for herself.

[Ripley]

60. I'm sorry but you are incorrect.

Women do not get to decide for themselves. TV show producers determine how the women dress and look. And the ratio of men/women is high.

Ever seen a female TV personality wearing comfy shoes? No. We see Katie on NBC wearing the pointies. We see Diane Sawyer (ground breaker into 60 minutes reporting for females years ago) now a Stepford looking botoxed woman wearing absurd shoes and acting ridiculous.

Yes, she could quit. Yes, she gets paid Well.

Yes, women should decide themselves. Who claimed anything other than informing women what their feet will look like in 20 years? Maybe old ladies in Miami can teach a few younguns how blinded they are.

Men control the media, the money and the politics. The Image. The women (very few) named who are in positions of power are SHIT-SUCKERS who ARE SELFISH things like Coulter.

[XemaSab]

61. I don't watch TV

:hi:

[mongo]

69. Who decided to go into TV?

There are plenty of work options that don't require high heels.

It's kind of like going to work at a tobacco company and demanding that they stop selling cigarettes.

And men control the media? So then no commercials, programs or networks are geared towards women at all.... Oh wait, I forgot, we beam this stuff at women to keep them down. :sarcasm:

[Ripley]

70. Okay, I'll engage. What does that mean?

Your post title: "Who decided to go into TV?"

You want to continually debate porn. I don't.

Media, Politics, Government, Entertainment. They are controlled by males (the vast majority) -- do I have to point out here that women only represent 14% of Congress?

Is this a Political Message Board or what? Women make up 14% of our government that makes laws in the USA.

?

[mongo]

72. You seem to be having a problem following the thread

So I'll recap.

You said:
I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Women do not get to decide for themselves. TV show producers determine how the women dress and look. And the ratio of men/women is high.

Ever seen a female TV personality wearing comfy shoes? No.

So I said:
Who decided to go into TV? There are plenty of work options that don't require high heels.

So then you said:
You want to continually debate porn. I don't.

Please tell me where in this thread I mentioned porn, because I didn't. perhaps my mere presence causes you to think of nothing else...

I won't even try to explain the other point I made, because I can see that it won't get anywhere.

[Lannes]

18. That was a very PC response sui generis

:P.I do see your point but what I was trying to convey was that some people are PC by playing the odds of what they say wont offend the majority at a certain place and time.You are right there will always be someone that will be offended by someone's opinion.

edit for clarification

[Ripley]

20. Give me an example.

And why don't you call it by another word in the dictionary instead of the PC term which the repukes have mastered as hatefulness spreaders?

Yes, people get offended by opinions. But what is PC to you?

I notice yall are big on high-fives, and small on examples.

[Lannes]

28. Ive never used the word "PC"

On this board until now in almost 2000 posts so that question doesnt really apply to me.You asked why so many DUers use that term and I gave my opinion as to what that term means to me.

PC to me is that all republicans are evil and there should be no compromise at all.

[sui generis]

33. don't worry Lannes

your thread is being hijacked by shrill people with an agenda.

Personally I use "PC" mockingly, but with the understanding that when I say it among my friends we are either talking about people who really are bigots, or about ourselves struggling to find a term or expression that won't offend someone somewhere.

That doesn't make me a bigot by any means and I am always willing to modify my speech if I really am offending someone, because inadvertantly offending is not my intention, nor is "bigotry".

What I hate is when in spite of all effort to the contrary we are still accused of being insensitive in the least constructive way possible - and that usually comes from one of our own who lacks any better social skill than attack mode.

Is the person who slips up and says "oriental" a bigot because he didn't say "asian"? Probably not.

[Ripley]

34. His thread?

You mean the thread I, me and myself started?

[sui generis]

37. you're right, my bad

but on that topic - why do you treat other posters here as if we're the enemy? It's really not constructive.

[Ripley]

43. I think you are a liberal and not my enemy.

I think you made a mistake in stating upstream that "even queers" meant that gay men don't ever, ever hate women.

I think that is bullshit. And I didn't mean that in a blanket way. But you seemed to be making a blanket statement that all gay men love women.

Crap.

[Bunny]

36. Lannes' thread? I thought Ripley started this thread?

:shrug:

[sui generis]

40. thank you - got it /nt

[Lannes]

44. Thanks sui generis

I didnt start this thread,Im just like you surprised at the hostility for responding to it politely.

[Ripley]

47. Okay. Where am I hostile?

You said I am hostile, where?

[Lannes]

48. Moving from hostile to defensive,you are on a roll

[kliljedahl]

42. I've posted satire here, clearly labeled (Satire)

& have had people respond negatively. The last was from Borowitz. I don't do it anymore just because of the hassle. I used to think only RWers had no sense of humor, now I'm not so sure.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[ronnykmarshall]

75. You are a blondist!

I've been a blond at times and yes people treat me different when I walked in to a parking meter. They just laughed and pointed. When I when back to my natural color and walked into a parking meter people rushed to help me.

[ComerPerro]

4. Personal Computer

As in, I DU on my PC while on LSD

[UTUSN]

5. I Think the Problem Is with EXCESSIVE p.c.-ism

I'm a Dem born & bred, but in certain circles going back as far as the '70s EXCESSIVE p.c.-ism was a turn-off. It had to do less with the target of the p.c.-ism (let's say, smoking), but with the high-handedness, lack of tact, puritanism (small "p")----embarrassing people in front of others.

An example here will come from the OPPOSITE side of things. In the '70s we had just started getting into banning smoking in the workplace. This new employee in a two-weeks training class made life hell for several co-trainees, even objecting when the smokers were outside in a patio. Lo and behold, when the good-bye supper was held and the spouses where invited, guess WHO's hubby lighted up AT THE DINNER TABLE INSIDE??? Yep, it was HERS. Demandingness, bossiness, my-rules-better-than-yours--that kind of thing.

I think the objectionable part of it has an element of HYPOCRISY, as above, which rears its ugly head in A LOT of forums.

Another part of it has less directly to do with p.c.-ism per se, more like BEING OUT OF TOUCH. Much was made about DUKAKIS's choice of avant garde (post?-)classical music---modernistic, atonal stuff that can't be whistled by somebody in a good mood.

[Ripley]

10. Couple of things...

1. Was the term PC in use in the 70's? Don't think so. It was a manufactured term in the 1980s as I recall. So it doesn't apply to your smoking story, except in hindsight. But why use "politically correct" when you mean "anti-smoking zealots?"

2. Give me an example of PC hypocricy at DU. I'd like to know, really.

I understand the "out of touch" maybe. But not in the example you gave. Are you saying Dukakis was PC because he liked a particular obscure type of music you can't whistle to? :shrug:

[UTUSN]

62. Phenomena Exist Before Their Naming Labels Are Invented

As for being specific about p.c. things here at DU, there ARE some taboos, as I guess there are ANYWHERE. Some TRUE things, some UNCOMFORTABLE truths that challenge our orthodoxy, that will call down flames if broached. I'm not going THERE here and now.

Re DUKAKIS, whom I liked, the arcane tastes share with p.c.-ism a snootiness, if you will, setting "better" standards that leave us vast unwashed cold--perhaps even seething.

[XemaSab]

53. It's exactly analogous to

right wingers who respond to everything with "Why do you hate America?"

It's branding someone for having a nuanced opinion.

[MadisonProgressive]

6. Pretty Cock (or so my girlfriend tells me)

But that isn't poliitically correct! :evilgrin:

[ronnykmarshall]

76. Mine's prettier!

Ain't he cute? His name is Cocky!

[htuttle]

8. "PC" means you don't get to say the 'N'-word anymore.

Nine times out of ten, people who complain about 'PC' things are upset they don't get to feel comfortable with racist or sexist speech anymore.

Sure, one times out of ten, it's something stupid (I'll leave it up to somebody who's upset about 'PC' to point out an example). But the rest of the time, it's an attempt to say to racists and sexists: "It's not 'OK' for you feel comfortable being a racist and/or sexist."

Also, a lot of our slang unfortunately has derogatory roots, though many of us may not know it. It should really be upon us to learn from the situations where derogatory language is pointed out.

[Ripley]

15. Thanks htuttle!

I agree. Too bad some resist so hard.

[Catholic Sensation]

9. the problem is when euphemisms are used

visually impaired for blind, differently abled for handicapped, crap like this goes too far. changing gender specific words to include men and women is fine, the examples above though are infuriating to listen to.

[Bunny]

14. Why are you so infuriated at having to call people what THEY

prefer to be called? Why does it enrage you to honor THEIR wishes as to what THEY are called? Were you boiling over with rage when blacks demanded that people stop calling the "nigger"?. If not, why is it so hard to see that others may feel the same way about how they are referred to? And why is that so infuriating for you to honor? Is it more important that you defend your god-given right to behave like a jerk? (I'm not saying you are a jerk, just that you behave like one when you don't call people what they want to be called).

[Ripley]

17. I asked a serious question..

and all I got were these Lounge-type answers for the most part.

?

[Moochy]

21. PC = duh

I guess most posters assesed the question as a joke, or something worth mocking? I didnt but I had to fight the urge.

[Ripley]

22. So I am worthy of mocking?

Thanks! PC = duh. What exactly does that mean in non-highschoolish language, please.

[Moochy]

25. Well, if you didnt know what PC meant

It seemed odd, and more of a trolling type question. My repsonses are not mocking you check them out. I just had to fight the "typical lounge response" urge and post something that wasnt a joke.

While you may be worthy of mocking, I wont do it. It's not PC. :rofl: lighten up! :)

cheers!

[Eloriel]

24. Are they even as good as that?

Well, htuttle's was great, but other than that, pretty dismal, I'm afraid.

[Bunny]

29. Yeah, there are some very Lounge-ish replies here.

A few good ones too, and this is a good subject to discuss in general.

[TheMadHatter]

59. Because it goes too far into the realm of the ridiculous

It's also a source of great amusement. My friends and I are quite liberal, and we're extrememly un-PC. Our jokes may be offensive to some but TFB.

PC is a term associated with uptight pinch-faced people who go out of their way to be offended. Their are many opinions in the world that might offend me, but guess what, too bad. I share the planet with a diverse set of humans and not all of them are going to have the same values and opinions as me, thank the gods.

[Moochy]

19. Where is the line?

"Crap like this goes to far"

Efforts to reframe words in the language have varying degrees of success. The reframing of these examples destigmatize negative connotation of the words. Perhaps not to you, or others, because the artificiality of the new terms strikes you and others as intrinsicly wrong, ie. not in your vocabulary.

The attempt to destigmatize negative terms comes from members of those stigmatized groups within the universities.

I agree with your assesment of the "differently-X" one, as its clumsy and I reject it on aesthetic grounds. :)
I have no problem with visually impaired.

How about "little person" instead of midget or dwarf?

[Bunny]

26. I work in the "differently -x" community, and have for the past

25 years. No one calls it that. They don't call it differently abled, handi-capable, or any other such things. They call it developmentally delayed, hearing impaired, traumatic brain injury, physically handicapped, etc.

I like your point, changing language can help to remove the stigma attached to the words. What's wrong with that, and furthermore, why would a true progressive or anyone of good will object to it? :shrug:

[Moochy]

30. Thanks for clarifying that!

I only object on linguistic grounds to the more clumsy formations :)
I could never use "herstory" seriously for example. The ones you cite dont strike me as silly or artificial, because I've been exposed to them and they are in standard useage.

I think that when people react negatively to these new terms, that they do so because the terms' artificiality, and resent the intent to change what is falsely seen as a static language. These listeners are preserving linguistic inertia.

And I think that you are right the "differently hirsute" for bald is really just a joke from outside those communities, and riffing on the renaming of stuff with "differently". Upon reflection I think that my rejection of that term "differently" is based on seeing comedians joking about pc stuff. (Maybe jeff foxworthy? or Sinbad. Men and Women are different! )

[Connie_Corleone]

11. Pretty Cool

[Kraklen]

12. whiny about PC =

somebody just got called on being a bigot.

[Eloriel]

27. Amen. One of the best responses so far n/t

[DaveJ]

16. Repugs decide what is PC these days don't they?

[genieroze]

32. I thought PC meant personal computer. eom

[SalmonChantedEvening]

38. Patriotically Correct n/t

[JugDack]

41. Used by the wrong to blame the right

"PC" is a term primarily used by people who are wrong in an effort to blame the people who are right.

[Touchdown]

50. I always say Mac because I'm an elitist contrarian.

PC is sooooooo everybody else.:evilgrin:

[ronnykmarshall]

77. Oh you uppity Mac people.

Just for that, no Vin Diesel for you!! To think I was gonna share!

[ronnykmarshall]

78. Oh you uppity Mac people.

Just for that, no Vin Diesel for you!! To think I was gonna share!

57. pc

Isn't PC like the story of the emperor with no clothes. Everyone tries to behave and be in the norm, to the point where no one is pointing out the reality of something. And then it takes a child to open their mouth and say it. I remember as a child being amazed at how many adults go around in non-reality, ignoring what is in front of them. And as an adult, now I know why. PC - or apathy + PC.

This thread did seem like flamebait though. :crazy:

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TWiley]

66. Welcome to DU annces8

And thank you for your post. I did appreciate it.

[slutticus]

58. Buy a Mac

:D

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

67. "PC" stands for "politically correct". The most common usage seems to be

in reference to language that is discriminatory (racist, sexist, homophobic etc.) as being "non-PC" and that which is not as being PC.

I seem to remember the term as gaining prominence when I was in college during the 80's.

I think it is a bad term.

The things it seems to refer to most commonly have their own more specific terms that are superior in most cases.

The idea that things are "politically correct" or not implies an orthodoxy of thought that I find detestable on either the right or the left. Ideas should stand or fall on their own without making reference to a canon of orthodoxy.

For instance, it is virtually universally believed here on DU that to invade Iraq was wrong, and that GWB is a bad president. However, such thinking, while seemingly obvious, should be supported by facts. Those opposing such thinking should also be bound to provide facts and not simply adherence to orthodoxy.

[Ripley]

68. Heh...yeah.

Thanks for that.

[tomg]

71. The history of the term is fascinating.

Originally the term was used by the Soviet Communist Party as a way of defining who was doctrinally pure and who was not. It also had some usage with CPUSA as I recall, mostly in the thirties and in the runup to WWII ( the Hitler Stalin pact gave them a few hoops to jump through).
The term then fell out of favor and died until about 1979 - 1980 when it was revived at Dartmouth University which, at the time, was a breeding ground for young conservative thinkers. Quite a bit of conservative money went into the Young Republican groups there and they had a rather controversial newspaper that first used the term. At the time, it was used as a way of collectively disparaging liberals who would call conservatives on their linguistic and other shit, who called for universities to divest of investments in South Africa and who called for real affirmative action. Frankly, it was a great linguistic coup by the conservatives. For some reason, I identify it with Irving Kristol. Not as flashy as stealing patriotism, but useful. A few years ago, I did a lexus/nexus search of the term and before 1979, it was virtually unknown. After 1980, it increased and increased and literally exploded.
Frankly, I hate the damn term. Everytime we use it, we buy into thier system whereby liberals and progressives who are "pc" are priggish or anal retentive or are lock step. Those who are "politically incorrect" are somehow or other independent, think on their own, and aren't afraid to stand their ground. What a load of horseshit. Personally, as an academic and a first amendment freak,I am absolutely opposed to all speech codes. I love it when some "non-pc" person uses a homophobic, a racist, an anti-semitic, classist, sexist, religiously or ethnically bigotted term. They always get their asses handed to them by someone who isn't afraid to be "politically correct." Don't use the term. It sucks. I mean unless you are demanding doctrinal purity.

edit for typos

[ovidsen]

79. Read this.

No, not this exactly.

Read post #71 by Tong, which I'm answering with this endorsement.

Kudos, Tong.:applause: Yours is about the best explanation of PC on this thread.

[LoZoccolo]

74. Yes, we should let Rush Limbaugh define us.

We need to do this just because he makes fun of it.

No we don't.

[Technowitch]

80. Locking

This thread has become a flaming trainwreck, derailing into thinly (and sometimes not-so-thinly) veiled attacks against DU members.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator