If you offshore even one job that could allow an American to live,

[Deja Q]

I suggest you take your pathetic corporate arse out of this country and become a citizen of the country you are choosing to exploit.

As a corporation you are entitled to lots of tax breaks, incentives, corporate subsidies that even the likes of McDonald's, Walmart, and Microsoft receive despite their sheer wealth and power. Never mind the protections you get and laws you get to influence being in the power you are in.

The least you can do in exchange is give your fellow citizens, who pay the difference in taxes you find ways to skirt around, a reasonable way of life.

But if you're not supporting Americans, who'd then continue to improve themselves for YOUR benefit, just leave. You are destroying this country's infrastructure in your actions. People getting laid off are not bothering to learn new fields. Why bother? None of the downsizing/offshoring trends have any sign of reversing, and there are hundreds of millions of Indians and Chinese. At least 3 of them per 1 of us.

Worst of all, it was corporate-America that helped create the pricey standard of living we all live in. It is wrong for the people to create the problem to then whine about it, as well as making the working stiffs pay the penalty they certainly don't deserve.

[JDPriestly]

1. Kick

[Walt Starr]

2. Offshoring is a legitimate tool in the corporate world

Quite frankly, those companies who are doing massive offshoring for short term gains on the bottom line are going to be in for a rude awakening in the long term because their business will be adversely affected by their poor decisions.

The smart companies that are offshoring work (note I did not say jobs) are doing so wisely. Offshoring maintenance on code bases that are being obsoleted, for example, is a wise move and frees up those resources that would have otherwise been wasted maintaining the obsolete codebase to work on newer technologies that go to the core competencies of the company and the strategic directions of the product lines.

This form of offshoring is win-win. It allows developing nations to move up in the world, provides a cheaper solution for maintenance of obsolete code that will be shelved in the not too distant future, and provides the well seasoned coders an opportunity to work on the new stuff where the future is.

The Dells of the world who offshore their technical support capabilities are losing their core business as customers begin jumping ship over poor quality support. They'll see the errors of their ways in the not too distant future. Unfortunately, it'll probably be too late.

[Deja Q]

4. The corporate world is illegitimate then...

Or I just don't understand why offshoring is legitimate. Not under how our country is defined and operating. We are NOT a world community. We have been, are, and always will be a community of nations. Not a world government. Until we are a world government, offshoring only serves to weaken the country that engages in it.

And, yes, I saw "offshroing work" (not jobs). You're still wrong. People need work in order to live. I'd love for you to tell a victim of offshoring, face to face, how it benefitted him for his job to go overseas. Indeed, where is the line drawn between jobs and mere "work"? Customer support seems to be mere work; unliked and readily thrown out the door. Just like you said.

Also, in order to bring up the rest of the world, the rest of the world then needs the ENERGY to do what we need them to do. Whoops, not we - I mean the corporate elite. With energy supplies about to dwindle, if you believe in "peak oil" mind you, doing this seems to be a big mistake.

And along with input comes output. The waste from energy. In short, pollution. More CO2, amongst other pollutants are created. CO2 isn't a problem so long as you have enough trees to process it back into oxygen. And the last I heard, the foresting industry isn't stopping to take a breather... in the long run, and I suspect with the crises to date at the northern pole region, we're about to turn the corner.

In the end, I'm being too harsh. As I have said before, I think we're all beyond recrimination and it's only a matter of time before everything breaks and the Great Dieoff begins.

And another fun point is people flying to other countries. With bird and pig flu in the eastern world, travelling over there is only going to bring it all here. Who needs Peak Oil for the Dieoff when incurable nasty virii can do it more effectively than 1,000 Osama Bin Ladens (who also hate us because of how we exploited them in the 1980s and then dumped them, never mind the supposed Afghani oil pipeline from July 2001 that some people were talking about as being a catalyst for the 9/11 attack... some in the world getting tired of our corporate bullying, I fear? :tinfoilhat: And it is :tinfoilhat: )

[Walt Starr]

17. You're free to feel that way.

I, however, am not.

I have seen first hand the benefits of offshoring work that goes outside of core competencies and the strategic direction of the comapny and have seen the benefit to employees within that organization.

That organization did it smart.

I've also seen first hand the effects of being numbskulls about offsoring to affect the bottom line for a few quarters. There was a definite positive effect on the bottom line and the reporting for those few quarters, but the backlash to that organization in terms of lost customers do to inerior products being brought to market more than outweighed the short term benefits over the long term.

That organization did it stupidly.

[tavalon]

23. The corporate world is, in fact, illegitimate

However, I will have to think on the previous posters point a while.

The merging of government and corporations was possibly conceived and definitely "popularized" by Mussolini. It's called fascism. It didn't work so well then and it isn't working today, in its latest incarnation. Unfortunately, many of us will pay before fascism gets routed once again.

[xchrom]

6. there's more to it than just business...

corporations have a responsibility to the communities where they are based.

nobody -- including corporations get to have their bread buttered on both sides.
but that's what they want.

they want to exploit a worker for the time period they desire -- when things no longer perfectly suit their greed{not need} they leave.

the people have been railroaded not only supporting corporations with their labour -- but giving millions in tax breaks and incentives. look at the communities that forgo taxes for large coprporations to settle -- that means the schools{that said corporation would benefit from in the long run} get cheated out of taxes, the public pay for new roads to suit the needs of said corporation, housing prices go up with no committment from the corporation to keep wages up with spike of living costs, etc.

they are far from playing ''fair'' -- they giving every one a screw job -- not to mention their undue influence on political bodies around the country.
a topic unto itself.

[tavalon]

24. Costco

is the only company I know of that is playing fair with its employees and its community.

[FloridaPat]

3. Funny thing about offshoring jobs. Just imagine what this country will

be like with a large part of the population unemployed or way underemployed. And very ticked off. It will be unbearable for the corporate creeps. They just destroy the country they live in for profit. Just like the repubs. I don't know who is dumber - the ones that have the power to do this or the idiots that vote for them.

[Deja Q]

7. The fool or those who follow the fool... the answer is an easy one.

The followers of the fool.

[Moochy]

5. While corporations are treated like persons

Their internal rules compel them to act in a psychopathic way.

Just because the law treats them as persons doesnt mean you should fall into that same trap and appeal to the corporate citizen as some entity with ethics.

Patriotism is not something a psychopathicly profit-obsessed coporation even considers.

That being said I appreciate the offshoring problem and have had to work with horrible 'engineers' overseas who were 100% unqualified, and made 1/10th my salary. I know that there are smart off-shore IT workers out there, but the ones I've had to work with in IT have been a pain in the arse.

These were not language issues, but just basic competency as to normal work processes and standards.


(edited for spelling)

[Moochy]

18. No comments?

Maybe im on ignore?

[FloridaPat]

21. I've ben in IT for 25 years and can't get a job anymore. One of the

reasons they said they offshore is because they are so much better educated overseas than here. I've worked with a lot of overseas engineers and agree with you totally. 90% are horrible.

[tavalon]

26. "They" of course, lie

It's all about the money.

[brokensymmetry]

8. Nominated. Kicked.

Those corporations are ever so eager to sell to Americans; let them hire Americans.

For those who believe in a well funded Social Security program, Medicare/Medicaid, or any other program at any level - taking wages away from the working men and women of this country assures that the various programs will be forced into bankruptcy.

Outsourcing and Karl Rove - just treason by different names.

[area51]

25. "Outsourcing and Karl Rove - just treason by different names."

Exactly. Every company that offshores/inshores (where people are brought to this country) is a traitor to America.

[Dogmudgeon]

9. It's a matter of proportion

In a healthy situation, offshoring would only happen when a foreign person or group with a specific skill set contracted to do that which could not be easily done here. And, of course, setting up a subsidiary in another country is a kind of offshoring. But each situation results in increased profits for an American business which can support increased hiring at home.

Our current situation is the opposite. Some companies are offshoring everything they can, neglecting to do a proper talent search in the host country. Skills are deprecated. The process is a kind of schizoid split, not the establishment of a subsidiary or franchise.

I strongly suspect American business is in for a very rude awakening soon. International political problems can affect offshoring. And if India ever should find itself engaged with a Pakistan which has embraced militant "Islam", then the companies who did so much offshoring to India will lose their shirts.

Plus, when the jobs come back, there will be a lot of pissed-off Americans to deal with. I was a computer programmer whose job was offshored in late 2001. In the last 4 years, I have learned a lot more about my craft. So my hourly rate will double -- or triple, if the contracting company did any offshoring.

It sounds fair to me.

--p!

[brokensymmetry]

10. Hello, Bare Knuckled Liberal!

(See? I still remember your old ID!)

Charge them every dime you can. Insist on a signing bonus, too! :evilgrin:

And I think we're going to see quite a lot of engagement with militant Islam; Iraq has, in my opinion, stirred up a hornet's nest that may result in a great many stings.

[XemaSab]

12. there are a billion indians

a billion chinese, and a billion non-chinese and non-indian asians.

assuming that 3 billion asians don't have the talent or the capacity to do what a few thousand progammers in San Jose can do I think grossly misunderestimates the resourcefulness of these countries and peoples in training top quality workers.

[Dogmudgeon]

22. They have plenty of talent

But then again, so do Americans.

The problem isn't with the people in these countries (or even the USA), it's with the managerial and capital-controlling classes in the USA. It includes a government under the impression that "free trade" should work exclusively to profit large business.

While the technical workers in other parts of the world may profit, they're not exactly getting rich. Meanwhile, in the USA, millions of people have lost their jobs or have downgraded severely. And in a country where money is the indicator of personal value and moral probity, it has also destroyed morale.

The big profit accrues to the enterprises which have offshored. The discovered that they could make a dollar's profit on giving away ten dollar's value -- and leapt at the chance.

--p!

[XemaSab]

11. It's a downward spiral

as far as the American working class goes: they get increasingly crappier and lower-paying jobs, and they can only afford cheaper made-in-China McCrap, which results in bolstering the offshore movement of manufacturing jobs.

It's difficult to imagine what a made-in-the-USA lifestyle would cost, or even if such a thing is possible with an average worker's salary and consumption habits. further, there's a lot of stuff that just isn't made or grown in the US, and a lot of companies who are disingenuous about the origins or manufacturing locations of their products.

in the absence of a strong isolationist movement, the tide is going out for the American worker.

[sweetheart]

13. What about profits and the zero'th amendment

You know the zero'th amendment, the one that states that all
corporations must maximize their profits for their shareholders.
It is the unenumerated first amendment that makes corporate citizens
empowered to erode all society, to erode all legitimacy for people
and their civil government institutions.

The corporate states of america have lost the plot entirely, and elevated
falsity over truth, corporations over the citizen and kapital over
human life. It is the new deception, soon to be enclosed, like a massive
open air prison behind barriers of razor wire and 1.3 billion dollars
worth of landmines.

Its time we changed the name of the USA to CCCP and get it over with.

[tabasco]

16. I agree with your post.

I don't know if it can be stopped without a disaster.

With the power they yield, corporate leaders now control our government, with Bush as its nominal leader, but Cheney as the one in charge.

[welshTerrier2]

14. change the tax code !!

we give investors all kinds of special tax "discounts" ... capital gains rates on money "earned" by investing in corporations is taxed at lower rates than income earned from actually doing some work ...

take away the investment income you can make from companies that send jobs offshore and the motivation to do so would decline very rapidly ...

how might this work? well, let's say you lose the capital gain "discount" pro-rata based on the percentage of your workforce that is not based in the US ... so, just as a rough example, let's say you tax capital gains at 20% ... a company with 25% of its workforce outside the US would yield a 25% higher tax rate or 25% ... a company with 50% outside the country would have gains on sales of its stock taxed at a 50% higher rate or 30% ...

take away the incentive to invest in companies that export jobs ... it's kind of like a boycott but it's done through a few simple changes to the tax code ...

[Deja Q]

15. Excellent idea!!

Now we need to convince the repukes of that, but I suspect that once THEY realize that the system is about to shatter they might just do it on their own. (I hope.)

[Lannes]

19. Your feelings about Lou Dobbs aside pro or con

Here is a list of companies doing it.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/popups/exporting.america/content.html

[Deja Q]

27. Thanks for the list. But who's Lou Dobbs?

:shrug:

[applegrove]

20. Even the left in Canada is coming on board regarding trade with

less developed nations. Those countries need middle classes. We cannot just take their resources forever and never encourage them to be a market themselves!

That doesn't mean it has to be neocon trade deals.