Dean was a decent democrat until 25 days ago

[MIMStigator]

http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=3520455

[tjdee]

1. He wasn't a Republican, and that's a big friggin lie.

You're going to get flamed for not adding to another thread and posting a new topic....

but now that I've read the actual comments out of Dean's own mouth, I'm angrier than I was.

Dean wants to pit himself against the "party insiders", it'll be interesting to see him nominated and hit up those same party insiders for support against Bush.

[wndycty]

2. Watch it. . .

You might get tombstoned.

[tjdee]

5. Why??

???

[wyldwolf]

3. That is for sure...

...he's biting the hand that feeds him, so to speak.

[pruner]

16. the hand that feeds him?

LOL

last time I checked Dean's site, he'd been fed by over 147,000 Americans who are not part of the "establishment".

you obviously don't know what the F you're talking about.

if anything, the "establishment" has tried to stifle his food supply.

[noiretextatique]

4. is he referring to the DLC?

i heard they were disenchanted with him.

[Vis Numar]

6. Really?

What was he?

[tjdee]

9. An independent...

Like most of the people in this country....you don't *have* to be a R or D. Plus, in Arkansas there is no party registration so on that basis alone it is a lie. There is no possible way Clark could have registered as a Republican.

[TLM]

24. CLark voted for and supported republicans...

in my book that makes you a republican.


When's the last time Dean spoke at a republican fundriser?

[MIMStigator]

30. Dean spoke in support of Clark a couple weeks ago

on national TV. In your book that makes him a republican

[TLM]

52. Can't defend Clark so attack Dean.

Dean has a long record of democratic achievements and policy positions to demonstrate his standing. Whereas Clark has nothing but a few catch phrases and sound bites next to an established record of questionable actions in war time, questionable associations with guys like Henry Kissinger, and stated support for Reagan, Bush, and the PNAC crew.

The man spoke at republican fund raisers like two years ago.


No amount of Dean bashing will change the fact that Clark was hiding his party affiliation until recently, and now we know why. He was a Red Ink Ronny Repuke.

I do not trust a man who changes sides in order to try to gain more power, and the fact he's a general who changed sides for power is even more bothersome to me.

I had thought Clark would be a good VP, but anymore I fear whoever picks him for VP, might end up with the Dealey Plaza early retirement package.

[Kahuna]

43. I don't know. And neither do you.

nt

[TLM]

62. Wow that's one hell of a good reason to vote for him as president.

Vote Clark... because "I don't know. And neither do you."



No thanks, I'll stick with the guy I DO know about.

[tjdee]

49. He voted for and supported Democrats too.

That's my point.

[TLM]

68. And how do we know he's noting going to have another change of heart

when he's in office?



The things he has said about republicans and the PNAC crew are things no democrat would say.

Am I supposed to ignore that and vote for this republicrat because he'll be able to rub W's nose in the AWOL thing?

I do not want to trade one power hungry war monger for another power hungry war monger.

[MIMStigator]

76. How do we know NRA Dean won't have change of heart about Medicare?

Dean's record just doesn't support the idealized image of him.

He's not a liberal, not a progressive, and not a democrat.

[union_maid]

79. Well, kind of...

I think Dean's a liberal and so far he's certainly a Democrat. I don't think he's particularly progressive. His record and prior statements indicate that he's socially liberal and fiscally conservative. His wanting to repeal all the tax cuts is not as liberal as wanting to leave them in place for lower income brackets for the reasons given by the candidates who support leaving them in place for the middle and lower incomes. We've already had our state and local taxes raised because of these tax cuts and are paying more for services, so it's an additional hardship in bad times. The fact that he ever considered raising the retirement age to 70 concerns me as well. It shows a certain disconnect from the realities of life for many people. Clark, Kerry and Edwards have all demonstrated more understanding of what life is like if you don't have much money, IMHO.

[TLM]

81. State and local taxes are up because of those tax cuts...

so obviously you did not get a net gain from them, did you?

Dean wants to undo that, bring those state and local taxes back down, and then focus tax relief on small businesses and working folks.


"The fact that he ever considered raising the retirement age to 70 concerns me as well."

So you're worried about an answer Dean gave to a hypothetical question 10 years ago... but the fact Clark was showering praise on Bush and Reagan at republican fundraisers, and saying how he liked the PNAC crew and wanted to work with them again just 3 or 4 years ago... that's not problem for you?

[TLM]

80. Can't defend Clark... so attack Dean.

Dean's position on medicare hasn't changed. Gephardt's attack was a baseless and desperate misrepresentation of what Dean had said about the way Medicare was mannaged.

"He's not a liberal, not a progressive, and not a democrat."

Tell you want, lets put Dean's record for the past decade up against Clark's and we'll see who is more liberal, more progressive, and more of a democrat?

You can troll and flame bait all you want, but lets see you put your money where you mouth is. Dean has the record to prove his status as a liberal, a democrat, and a progressive.

SO lets see Clark's record. Lets see if you can defend Clark instead of attacking everybody else?

[MIMStigator]

83. Defend Clark's record? He got shot up while others went skiing

How's that for a good start?

[TLM]

87. Clark was bombing hospitals.... while others were working in them

Clark was taking lives while others were saving them.


How's that for a finish?

[bearfartinthewoods]

88. there is a very easy way to settle this.

i have a voter registration card that shows when i registered as a dem. Clark must have one too. all he has to do is show it, right?

[Vis Numar]

7. Bogus article:

"Clark declared his candidacy and party affiliation as a Democrat this month, and promptly replaced Dean atop a number of polls for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination."

THat's a lie, Dean hadn't been atop more than 1 national poll before Clark entered, and is tied with Clark afterwards. Lieberman was, and is the big loser.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Shush.

Don't let the newbies know how politics really works.

[dfong63]

8. dean was and still is a great democrat

[mhr]

11. And Clark Has a Troubled Past

Read more here:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/DVNS_Wesley-Clark.htm

[MIMStigator]

12. Not anymore. Clark should start calling him McGovern

But Clark is too decent a democrat ain't he

[noiretextatique]

13. McGovern: a truly decent human being and Democrat

A prolific author, McGovern has lectured at more than 1,000 colleges and universities around the world. He has also received many honorary degrees and distinguished awards, including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the United States' highest civilian honor, which was bestowed upon him by President Bill Clinton on August 9, 2000.

A war hero, 22-year U.S. Congressman and 1972 Democratic presidential nominee, George McGovern will long be remembered for his courage in speaking out against U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War, his friendship and respect for the common man, and his work on behalf of American farmers and hungry children throughout the world.

http://www.mcgovernlibrary.com/george.htm

[JohnKleeb]

14. a hero

[noiretextatique]

15. i agree

:toast:

[JohnKleeb]

17. you bet

:toast: I love how he still fights them today. Go Mac!

[noiretextatique]

20. a fine human being and a true public servant

:toast: to McGovern

[MIMStigator]

22. So was Lincoln the Republican n/t

n/t

[JohnKleeb]

25. huh

Look even if McGovern was beaten bad it doesnt take away the fact he was a great senator and is a great man and a war hero.

[noiretextatique]

85. or that using his name as a slur is reprehensible nt

[JohnKleeb]

23. for mac

:toast:
I read him saying I was kind of a dove because half of the bomber crews I served with never came home.

[poskonig]

28. McGovern is bad, Wolfowitz and Rummy are good?

What is wrong with you people?

[MIMStigator]

33. Don't be dishonest like Dean

You know Dean doesn't want to be compared to McGovern.

[poskonig]

37. Using 'McGovern' as a slur doesn't help Clark.

It confirms the notions that

1) People support Clark because they are afraid of Junior.
2) Clark supporters have contempt for ordinary Democrats.

[Kahuna]

56. "Ordinary Democrats" as you call them..

seem to prefer Clark to dean. So how are we showing "contempt" for people like ourselves?

[MIMStigator]

58. I'm ordinary

but yer right Bush scares me

[poskonig]

70. Democrat-hating Clarkies.

Clark supporters are going out of their way to defend Richard Nixon, George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Dick Cheney.

Then, instead of saying "Clark isn't a Republican. Look at his detailed educational plan," for instance, they attack everyone who disagrees with them. They attack the Democratic leaders of the past, and condemn the Democratic leaders of the present for being "unelectable" (euphemism for "too liberal.")

This stinks. I'm more of a Democratic-leaning swing voter, and even I think this is insane.

Gephardt did an entire hatchet job on Dean today, and we don't see the Howard Dean people getting disruptive about it. Furthermore, Dean merely pointed out factual information about Clark's past.

So in other words, if people ask factual questions about a candidate's past, they aren't uniformed in the minds of Clarkies, they're evil. This is the contempt I referred to.

[TLM]

74. Exactly... I see more dem bashing from Clark folks than from greens

This thread is a great example of that... can't defend Clark's record, so attack Dean.

And how do they attack Dean, by comparing him to another dem.


Clark supporters have put so much energy into pumping up this image of Clark as this great progressive liberal hope, that they don't want to admit that the man's record just doesn't support their idealized image of him.

He's not a liberal, not a progressive, and not a democrat.

Dean is right, this is desperation from two groups… beltway insiders who see their grip on power slipping away and dems who are so afraid of W and have bought so much of the media spin that they are willing to vote for a republican just because he says he’s a democrat.

[TLM]

72. I think that will change as more information comes out about Clark..

he's tried hard to hide his political leanings, and now we know why.


Because Clark is a republican running in dem clothing.

[MIMStigator]

77. He didn't hide his past votes but Dean......

lied about his past on the retirement age

[TLM]

82. Can't defend Clark, so attack Dean...

Clark lied about his political affiliation. He wouldn't say he was a dem because he knew that the facts would come out about his support for republicans.

Clark hid the truth as long as he could while the draft Clark folks painted him as some super liberal progressive hope. It was all a big lie. I even fell for it, until I started reading up on Clark from sources other than Clark boosters and seeing that this guy is basically a republican war criminal.

Last I checked Dean never bombed civilians or showered innocent people with depleted uranium. Dean never been a member of a political organization with Kissinger and Woolsey. Dean has never said he likes the PNAC crew and wants to work with them again. As far as I know Dean never spoke at any republican fundraisers where he praised Bush and Reagan.

As for Dean on retirement age, Dean did not lie. He was attacked with an accusation that he supported something, which he did not, because 10 years ago he had said in an answer to a hypothetical question that raising the age to 70 might be one thing needed to balance the budget in 95 should a balanced budget amendment pass. He also said cutting defense might be needed as well, yet I see the same folks who claim that answer proved Dean wants to raise the retirement age, claiming dean won't cut defense.

So I guess decade old answers to hypothetical questions only prove what the person making the attack wants them to prove.

[TLM]

69. WHat is wrong is that they want to win...

even if it means selling their soul and running a republican.

[janekat]

34. Dean is no McGovern n/t

[SweetZombieJesus]

18. Obviously you're not a decent Democrat

If you buy into the "logic" wherein McGovern's name is slur.

Noiretblu said it best. I'd be honored to be called McGovern, and if you think it's an insult, maybe YOUR loyalty to the party should be called into question. Or at the very least, your intelligence.

[MIMStigator]

21. Stop acting like you don't know what "McGovern" means

It means "election loser"

[Padraig18]

26. Here's a proposition for you

How about I go explain what the infinitive "to McGovern" means, and you stop flame-baiting? Deal? :eyes:

[SweetZombieJesus]

27. No, it means "bullshit RW smear term that confused lefties buy into"

Thanks for advancing a SCLM talking point.

Calling ANY of these candidates "an election loser" is completely and utterly devoid of any logic at this point. Unless you're talking about Joe Lieberman, or you can read the minds of every voting American, please spare us your lazy armchair punditry, and stop helping to sully the good name of George McGovern.

[MIMStigator]

29. You mean like 'Clark is a Republican'

Clark hasn't helped Rove but Dean has.

[SweetZombieJesus]

31. Um, he said "WAS"

Do you understand the concept of verb tenses, or do I have to explain that to you too?

Christ, you can't even keep your own flamebait story straight.

[MIMStigator]

35. He said "was until 25 days ago" and it was an attack

and you know it.

[Padraig18]

36. Congratulations!

You have become my first 'ignore'! :toast:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

44. Care for a beer?

Have a seat next to me. :)

[Padraig18]

32. Another clueless zealot

[Cha]

39. I'll say this again! This is just about Brilliant!

Props to the Schlock and Roller Ward Sutton!

ANd thank you Padraig for bringing this on! :yourock:

[Padraig18]

41. Thanks!

I have had it up to HERE *finger at throat* with the juvenile, flame wars! :thumbsup:

[TLM]

75. How is it an attack to state a fact....

Clark WAS a republican... no amount of Dem bashing will change the fact CLARK WAS A REPUBLICAN.

Clark heaped praise on Bush, Ronny, and the whole PNAC crew.

He vote repuke and supported repukes. Now he wants my vote because he says he's a dem even thouh he has NO RECORD of any democratic service.

[Kahuna]

57. Psst. He wouldn't know that because..

He wasn't born at the time. Yet, he can tell all of us who did witness that disaster all about it.

[Pepperbelly]

19. actually ...

Wesley is more like McGovern than Dean. An honorable man contesting with men of less honor. War heros and philosophers. I hope Wesley's electibility is better though.

[Kahuna]

51. He won't sink to Dean's lever. But Kerry will...

remind people at an adequate time about Dean sking while he and Clark were serving their country. And I don't want to hear about his "back." If his back were that bad he wouldn't have been able to ski. I believe his back excuse about as much as I believe in the pimple on limboob's ass. That sounds like a good soundbite to me.

[MIMStigator]

59. Clark is the only one who will stay clean

looks that way anyway

[TLM]

78. And as expected the republican supporters push republican sound bites.

Attack Dean for having been rejected at his draft induction physical.


"And I don't want to hear about his "back." If his back were that bad he wouldn't have been able to ski. "

And do tell at what medical school you got your doctorate?

I understand that in your desperation to attack Dean and avoid the hard questions about the republican you’re supporting, you’ll say or do anything, no matter how ignorant or uninformed. However for the benefit of those who are actually interested in truth, I’ll point out the facts here.

This might come as a shock to you, but people get rejected from induction physicals all the time for conditions that are not otherwise disabling. This idea that one must be horrifically crippled and unable to function in order to be rejected by the draft is just pure ignorance.

Dean has a vertebra issue that is pretty much an automatic rejection. He couldn’t join if he wanted to. It doesn’t mean he is unable to function, it simply means the military considers him too great a risk for injury to bother spending the money training him.

I’m not sure if you served in the military, but I doubt it because only someone who has never been through boot camp could make the colossally stupid assumption that skiing is as stressful on the body as boot camp.

[Kahuna]

45. The "dissidentvoice?" No thank you.

:eyes:

[TLM]

38. Odd the way Clarkies try to atack Dean, when they can't defend Clark.

Or the fact they are supporting a guy who was a republican until he decided to run for president and Rove didn't return his calls.

This is a guy who voted for republicans, spoke at republican fundraisers, has nothing but good things to sa about the PNAC crew, which he says he considers friends and he'd like to work with them again, and who is now presenting himself as this progressive liberal democrat? :wtf:

I think some of these Clark folks would vote for W if he said he was a democrat all of a sudden.


Yet rather than defend the fact Clark has switched sides all of a sudden, or point out some record of liberalism, these supporters would instead attack Dean who has a record well over a decade long of democratic service.

Dean is right... the beltway insiders see Dean as a huge threat to give power back to the grassroots level, instead of these power brokers and insiders like the DLC. So they are backing a guy, who is very questionable because he looks good in his general's uniform.

[MIMStigator]

47. Clark isn't the one who said he'd raise retirement age

"and who is now presenting himself as this progressive liberal democrat?"

He never said he'd raise the retirement age. That was someone else

[TLM]

86. Keep pushing those republican sound bites...

Keep trying to pretend that 10 year old answers to hypothetical questions based on circumstances which have changed, are currently representative of current policy. You’ll get real far on that.

It should tell you bashers something when you have to dig for 10 years to find a quote to take out of context to be able to attack someone.

One only has to dig back in Clark's history about 20 minutes to find things worth attacking.

[Kahuna]

63. Defend what? That Clark doesn't go around hating people...

because they're repukes? That Clark looks at people without Ds or Rs after their names? What is it you think we need to defend?

[TLM]

84. LOL nice try to paint hating as the same thing as not supporting

It is not that Clark doesn’t hate republicans... it is that he votes for them, raises money for them, heaps praise on their leaders, and says he likes them and wants to work with them again.


I don't want Clark to say he hates republicans... I just want him to have stopped SUPPORTING republicans and been a democrat for more than a month before he asks me to vote for him as the presidential candidate for the democratic party.

[Mass_Liberal]

42. I'd rather my candidate hadn't said that

I think that Dean was wrong, and that comment was unnecessary. I still think that Dean is a wonderful democrat. I still support him 100%

[Padraig18]

46. I agree

It was a terrible thing for him to say.

[salin]

48. hey guys... look... more dean/clark battle spam

mmmmmmmmmm spam

[JohnKleeb]

50. agh salin I hate spam

this is agh

[Padraig18]

54. 2 over-easy with my SPAM, please!

:P

[Clovis Sangrail]

53. I like cheese n/t

.

[SweetZombieJesus]

55. Hey look!

[Pepperbelly]

60. LOL ...

best laugh I've had all day.

[SweetZombieJesus]

64. I'll be employing it in the baseless anti-Clark threads as well

BEWARE TOILET MONKEY!

[Kahuna]

61. Well one thing. Dean won't be on Clark's list of

possible running mates if he wins. Bye bye howie. You'll never get to be president now.

[Cha]

65. Great News!

[MIMStigator]

66. Clark might pick him if he thinks democrats need him

cause he's a better democrat than HD

[Cha]

71. Balooney!

[Clovis Sangrail]

67. I like avocados too n/t

.

[union_maid]

73. It's a campaign

Dean is running for a nomination here. As you can tell by my icon and pretty much all my recent posts, I'm completely for Clark, but I think some people are taking this a little personally. I love when the candidates don't attack each other, but at some point they're going to have to differentiate themselves. The top tier candidates have relatively small differences in positions and they're even smaller when you take congress and what they can actually get done into consideration. Bush 41's campaign coined the perjorative, but correct, term that we all use to this day to describe Reagan's economic plan, which we all know is voo-doo economics. He wound up as Reagan's VP, so the battles between the candidates are not necessarily as deeply personal as we think they are. If I want to criticize Dean, and sometimes I do, I'd rather do it on the basis of policy differences.