I love California but I'm starting to almost hope Ah-nuld wins......

[karlschneider]

and I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet a grand against a cold cup of Starbucks that if he does, he would devolve a bad situation into a completely FUBAR one. And unfortunately, it might just take such drasticness (?) to wake people up.

We're seeing signs that Shrub has managed to do it on a national level.
How much his debacularity (?) resonates with CA voters remains to be seen. It won't be long now, though. :eyes:

(?) Yeah, I know those aren't words, really, but I've had a couple brewskis and they sounded good when I read 'em out loud. :D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Please don't post while drunk

Those of us that live here don't need things MORE FUCKED up to get better and really aren't willing to be held out as an example for the other states that already let Republicans take them over.

[Democat]

2. The media will say everything is great if Arnold wins

The same media who spent years attacking Davis will suddenly find every fuck up Arnold makes wonderful and spin it to make people think Republicans are great.

The entire mainstream U.S. media is spinning for Republicans almost all of the time.

[frank frankly]

3. Arnold is a Trojan Horse & A False Populist

say it loud and say it proud!

[salin]

4. conceding - because things will get better - and then MAYBE as a result

they will get better, is never a great thing. One can never predict how bad things will get. Who could have guessed how much damage this administration could bring in such a short time. WE knew they would be bad - but sort of envisioned a bush1 thing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. Did America get better after Bush stole his office?

Fucking people and their moronic logic.

[karlschneider]

11. Oh, now I've done it. Pissed off NSMA..........

I am desiccated with mortification.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. SOrry I just can't get passed the anger and the fatigue of working my ass

off to be held out as an example for the rest of America ...do we hold rob people simply to inform others of the dangers of robbery?

[karlschneider]

17. I do believe I accomplished the purpose of my post.

Don't stop fighting, nor will I here in Oklahoma. I intended to rile up some people and apparently it worked. Maybe it wasn't the best way to do it, but when we are fighting facists, well, all's fair in politics these days. Nothing personal I assure you.
;-)

[cally]

5. Does anyone remember what happened to the US economy

after the California energy crisis. Everyone in the nation laughed at our woes, then the national economy started tanking. You can't destabilize California and destroy our economy without it drastically hurting the rest of the nation. We are so big, that our woes affect everyone else dramatically.

[whathappened]

12. i fill for you all

and us all after they get done reshapeing what is left of this country , i have read a little about puhca and what they got planed for the rest of us , ani'nt going to be pretty

[poskonig]

7. Crisis situations help normally unelectable extremists.

Look at Hitler, Bush after 911, etc.

[cally]

8. California is not in crisis!!!!

We are doing better than most states.

[ParanoidPat]

9. Never forget.....

....As (we) California goes, so goes the nation! :evilgrin:

Be careful what you wish for. :)

[VOX]

10. Must be the beer talking. I live in CA and we don't need our nest fouled

by the Rove/*/Arnold machine. Some things have to be worked out, that's for sure, and Gray Davis isn't my kind of Democrat. That said, he's taken a bad rap for a shitty * national economy, and this recall is nothing but a RW power-grab to put CA into the GOP already-overstuffed pocketbook. No GOP candidate for governor, president or senate has won here since 1994, and they're pissed off about it.

Don't fall for the "scorched earth" scenario -- that things will get better if allowed to get worse -- it simply doesn't work that way with Republicans in power. They *own* the media, and mainstream stories of failure anywhere on their part are few and far between.

[karlschneider]

14. I don't disagree (and I'm not really drunk...don't believe I've made any

stupid typos or been incoherent)...I was attempting to point out that there are times when things have to get horribly bad for people to actually realize how bad they really are. The polls seem to indicate Ahnuld is the front runner. Now, I don't pretend to read the minds of Californians, but SOMEBODY is providing the data for these polls. Maybe they are bogus, but the fact they're being reported is a HUGE incentive for the undecided or apathetic electorate to support a perceived "winner."

I guess my wordsmithing coinage joke fell flat, sorry about that, but it bunches up my shorts when I see national reports that Schwartzy is likely to win. I do NOT want that.
:eyes:

[Democat]

13. Bush is being rewarded for screwing over the state

Bush caused the energy crisis and then used it to go after Davis and try to put another right wing puppet in place.

The media are the ones making all of this happen.

Arnold is a media darling and they won't stop bashing Davis for a second.

We are being destroyed by the mainstream media, which is all right wing.

"Most media are owned by Republican conservatives,", (Associated Press CEO) Curley said.

http://www.yankton.net/stories/092603/com_20030926028.shtml

[Dookus]

15. I live here....

and no, please don't wish that on us.

I for one, have vowed that if Arnold wins, I'm spending all my time gathering signatures for HIS recall.

[mitchtv]

28. add me to that list

I hope we can get a recall to coincide with the democratic primary.BTW did you see Donesbury today? he had a cut out recall Arnold petition to Kevin Shelley.

[leesa]

18. Well, since I live in California, I'm not sure I like the idea...but

I understand what you are saying though. Look at how bad it has had to get before people begin to get a clue about the Bush Crime Family. Unfortunately, people aren't realizing that Arnold is part of the Crime Family.
Why is the media betraying us? I suspect he will be placed in office and we will have to go through hell but it's just one more step on the way to the Republican dream of mass poverty, death and destruction.

[Democat]

19. Can you believe how hard the media is working for Arnold?

Doesn't it anger you to witness this extreme media partisanship?

If it wasn't the for the media constantly bashing Davis for the last few years (while defending Bush), the recall would never have happened in the first place.

The U.S. media is becoming the more important power in U.S. politics, and the entire media is owned by Republicans.

[Dookus]

23. it's annoying...

but understandable. Arnold becoming governor would be a big, ongoing news story for them. They love nothing more than a big story.

[jiacinto]

20. Not such a good idea

That's what people said about other Republicans and they kept on winning while they made things much worse. And the so-called people didn't "wake up".

[Imajika]

21. I got bad news for ya...

"And unfortunately, it might just take such drasticness (?) to wake people up."

I sometimes sense this collective notion on the forum that people think Americans will someday just wake up. As if US citizens would suddenly snap to their senses and recognize the Democratic Party is good and the Republicans are bad. California is about as close to this as were gonna get, and look what is happening.

This just isn't realistic. It probably ain't ever gonna happen.

We must fight for every election and every candidate. Even if we have a good Democrat in office doing a great job, the public mood can shift against him or her for a whole host of reasons. Bad press, some mishandled issue, poor PR, etc, etc - all of these things can turn a fickle American public against any politician.

In addition, there is no consensus in this country amongst the media about what is good or bad, right and wrong, outrageous or logical. There has not been in a long, long while. In much of Europe, the media is a completely different animal as most people on DU are well aware, and the people much more uniform in the general concept of the evolution they expect their societies to go through. In the US, the press will give Republicans equal time and GOP ideas equal weight even if the policies they are pushing are utterly ridiculous. Bush could come out and say the moon really is made of green cheese, and the media would report it like this "Bush says evidence exists that moon is made of green cheese, Democrats dispute findings". Further, any politician that is popular will be torn down by the media in an effort to make the next election more of a horserace. It's all about ratings, and landslide elections are boring to the audience regardless of the political leanings of the journalists. Ratings are king, revenues rule.

Americans generally like programs that help people, but not if it in any way affects their level of wealth or earnings potential. A left leaning politician can protect social programs from cuts, but if that means a noticable increase in taxes or any perceived reduction in individual citizens spending power - the public may turn on that politician in a heartbeat.

We are a capitalist free market society. Even our most liberal states operate pretty much in this same mold. People are not going to wake up and yearn for Democratic control. To win and make an effort at long term progress, we have to scrap and fight for every candidate in every single election. We can take nothing for granted, and we can NOT expect the American people to do any waking up.

Imajika

[Eloriel]

22. Karl, Karl, Karl -- Here's something to sober you up

If Arnold wins, California will go for Bush in 2004. Between vote suppression (cf. FL, 2000), vote fraud (cf. FL, 2000 and BBV), that's exactly what will happen.

I'm not making this up. I'm not hallucinating. I'm not even engaging in conspiracy theory. They already created their backstory, just 4 days or so before Arnold announced. Yes, they did. Don't believe me?

“Bush campaign sees California, New York as ripe for taking,” Joseph Curl, WashingtonTimes, Aug. 11, 2003, http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030811-123908-4908r.htm

All they have to do is get Arnold (who's a useful fool) elected, send Bush to CA a bunch for photo-ops, send CA some nice juicy Federal largesse, put out some polls showing how "close" the Pres. race in CA is, or how popular Bush is, or both, and then crank out the vote suppresion and vote fraud techniques they've been practicing in places like Florida 2000.

Eloriel

[karlschneider]

26. The BBV issue is separate and probably the MOST important aspect

of the whole imbroglio, I totally agree that particular emergency is worthy of the utmost concern!

My intent was to get people to imagine just how much depravity would (or will be) sufficient to see how urgent the situation really is.

According to the polling numbers I'm seeing, there actually seem to be a huge number of Californians supporting this idiot without considering the greater stakes. As I said in another post, the numbers are derived from -some- significant part of the electorate. Who they are, I cannot imagine, but there it is.

The possible scenarios are as diverse as they are problematic: Davis may survive the recall, in which case the pressure on him to "perform" will be astronomical. I see a fairly small possiblity that Cruz could pull off a win in which case the same pressure continues.

If Arnold should win, he will also be under enormous scrutiny but will have significant support from the Bushies...which may or may not ultimately be beneficial (for him...but probably not for the state.)

If I could punch a magic button and determine the outcome, I'd leave
Davis in as Gov., but I'd hate to be in his shoes. My state (Oklahoma) with 7 Repubs out of 8 congresscritters elected a Dem as governor last year. Our fiscal situation parallels that of CA on obviously a much smaller scale but is hardly unique in the US these days. Basically, we're bankrupt (for different reasons than California which got shafted largely by Enron/Cheney, etc) and have cut back on multiple services.

The "straw on the camel's back" is a somewhat silly analogy but does seem to me a fair way to approach my original proposition. I just hope and wish "enough is enough" supercedes "too much has already become fact."

It ain't too late 'til it's too late.

;-)

[salmonhorse]

24. Then this should warm your spirits:

http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/recall/story/7500077p-8442139c.html

Oh, by the by:

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ncppolls/push.htm

'push polls' make any fool look like a winner. Look what they did for Bush. Arnold is in fact tanking and a recall on his dumb-ass is already in the works as a form of pre-emptive strike in the event he slips in as a result of any S.N.A.F.U.

Very popular with re-publicans these days you know...pre-emptive strikes that is ~

Fight for your country where you may. We here in Cali are sick & tired of these fucking Texas, right-wing, neo-con vampire dunder-heads with their toady, lap-dog cronies in tow fucking with our state.

California! Leading the way in open political warfare if we must!

Oct 7th ~ Vote: No On Recall!!!

[Imajika]

25. Tanking?

"Arnold is in fact tanking"

Ummm. I appreciate that we don't always want to read doom and gloom. But your assessment that Arnold is tanking appears to be completely incorrect from virtually everything I've read or seen. Infact, if you believe this I'd almost have to think your living in an alternate universe.

It increasingly appears more likely to me that Davis will be recalled, and Arnold will win the election even with McClintock in the race.

"and a recall on his dumb-ass is already in the works as a form of pre-emptive strike in the event he slips in as a result of any S.N.A.F.U."

Well, I expect this to happen. And I'm glad that California Democrats are going to respond in kind to the GOP, but I don't think it is going to require a SNAFU to get Arnold into office. It appears to me that the California people are preparing to do that all by themselves.

"We here in Cali are sick & tired of these fucking Texas, right-wing, neo-con vampire dunder-heads with their toady, lap-dog cronies in tow fucking with our state."

The latest polls do not show this. We will see if your right in a week or so.

Imajika

[noiretextatique]

27. no offense, but i know salmonhorse is in california

and i wish you'd give him the benefit of the doubt. we STILL have and election to get through here, and frankly this negativity doesn't help. thank you.

[Imajika]

30. norietblu

Just because someone is from California does not mean I shouldn't refute what seems like clearly bad information to me. I am interested in understanding exactly how we got to this point and input from Californians helps greatly - but I can't help but question rosy statements that run opposite of everything I've seen and read.

"and frankly this negativity doesn't help"

I tend to agree. But we have to be realistic and not shy away from discussing what and why things look as they do as the moment.

Imajika

[noiretextatique]

32. realism, true

but we still have THE ELECTION, and the media is pumping up the giant chimp. i don't put a lot of my faith in the polls either. frankly...i think some are trying very hard to supress the vote with all this BS about the giant chimp's lead.

sorry...i know you mean no harm. but, the prospect of the giant chimp as governor is too horrifying to even entertain. if it acutally happens...i will deal with it then.

pray, send good vibes, and visualize NO on the recall for us please!!! peace, imajika.

[Imajika]

33. Okay, deal

"pray, send good vibes, and visualize NO on the recall for us please!!! peace, imajika."

Your right. I've been on this topic all day, and I have been pretty negative in the discussions. The election is still approaching and there is probably no reason to sit around and endlessly bang away at the negative.

I am visualizing a media stunning victory for Davis with the TV blabbermouths agonizing over how they got it wrong.

Cheers!

Imajika

[noiretextatique]

34. HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:toast: now THAT's a lovely vision :hi:

[salmonhorse]

35. Exactly Correct!!

We do still have 'the election' and the extent to which the Rove/RNC/Nixon-Bush-Cheney/Halliburton-Harkin-Big-Oil-Bechtel/Bush-Family-Oilgarchy/Israeli-Lobby Admin is able to reduce the entirety of America The Beautiful down to some issue-less, watch-the-birdie, Cult Of Maucho White Bread Personality is a day closer to the day when America is herself dead. Tits up and taking on water ~

You love to see Arnold parade his shit across the silver screen with his big ole fully-automatic assault rifle blasting holes in Raggety Ann effigies of Arianna Huffington that's your call. But do not confuse random subliminal fantasy with what needs to be done in earnest my friends.

[salmonhorse]

36. Again...

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ncppolls/push.htm

As well as who & why is supporting them ~

S.N.A.F.U.? System Normal All Fucked Up? Welcome to Cali these last 2.5 years in particiular.

[REP]

37. "Situation Normal - All Fucked Up"

Military slang, like FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition)

[salmonhorse]

38. Ee-yup ~

:hi:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

29. Saw my first real "No on Recall" commercials...

VERY nicely done, paid for by various groups.

It was direct and to the point, essentially pointed out:

When we had a Democratic Governor, he helped pass gay rights, women's right to choose, coastal protections, and clean air legislation. Republicans opposed all of those. If we put a Republican in office, what ELSE will they try to do away with?

Nicely hit all the issues that lose GOPers elections statewide.

Also saw a "No on 54" commercial paid for by Bustamante, looking very Gubernatorial.

Just saw another one, again with Bustamante. Pointed highlights of his record and stresses his experience. Then asked everyone to vote no on the recall for democracy, and then vote yes for Cruz. Again, nicely done.

[Closer]

31. I really, really feel

for you Californians. This California Recall bothers me immensely and I'm in New York. I can only imagine how Calfornia liberals must feel.

Let's hope Gray pulls it off. But if he doesn't, let's have a backup plan - like a RECALL ARNOLD