I love Fidel!

[CubsFan1982]

Sure, he limits my freedom of speech, assembly, petition, religion, and God knows what else, but hey, I get free health care and (state indoctrinated) education! Can't get that here!

Viva Fidel!

[Catholic Sensation]

1. VIVA CUBA

ME GUSTO STALINISM MUCHO!

[WildEyedLiberal]

3. VIVA LA REVOLUCION

VIVA LA GENTE! VIVA EL CHE!

[manic expression]

8. Si, Viva Cuba!

Pero, creo que Cuba no tiene "Stalinism". Hay justicia y muchas buenas cosas en Cuba, y libertad tambien. No se por que dices "Stalinism", debe pensar mas mucho.

[CubsFan1982]

13. ¿Entonces porqué usted no vive en Cuba?

¿Por qué usted vive aquí?

[manic expression]

19. Vivo aqui porque estoy aqui

No puedo ir ahora, pero quiero ir mas tarde.

Y tambien, mira a los otros paises en el espanolhablante mundo. Cuba esta mucho mas mejor que todos los paises. Esta mejor vivir en Cuba como un Cubano (no como un gringo) que vivir en Los Estados Unidos como un peor Americano (muchos Americanos son peor ahora).

[MisterP]

2. waiter, there's a worm in my soup!

[LaPera]

4. You bet, how much is that tropical beach property going for these days...

Somewhere near Guantanamo, hehehe...Although, I do need health care, education, work and more U.S. oppression.

Banana Republic USA, shipping our jobs away...And the corporations with their tax shelters, while still reaping our tax subsudies & benefits, and their insane imperialism, as they rave China is the their future...Hmmm!

Where does that leave us?

Hating Cuba & Fidel like were supposed to, (as the corporations, i.e the union busting republicans tell us to)?

[manic expression]

5. What are you talking about?

There is freedom of speech, assembly, petition, religion. There are many political parties that exist without any problem. Not even the Communist Party can officially hold office. The freedom to assembly is much better than it is here (no "free-speech zones"). People can easily access US news sources from almost any radio, even though Cuba CAN, BUT DOES NOT, jam offshore frequencies (it has against US propaganda campaigns, but not regular news services). The education is not "state indoctrinated", but is very good, especially when looking at any other Latin American country. There is virtually no inequity in Cuba, unlike "US-approved" Latin American countries.

Also, do not mistake dissidents for US agents. The US government pays these people to try to destabilize Cuba, and Cubans do not appreciate this, naturally.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4567393.stm

[ugarte]

6. Really? You can't get state-indoctrinated education where you live?

I've gotten it all my life.

[CubsFan1982]

7. I don't know where you live, so, no.

nt

[Warren DeMontague]

9. I wouldn't move to Cuba

'course, I wouldn't move to Texas, either.

[RevolutionaryActs]

10. I love Elian!

Viva Elian!

[In Truth We Trust]

11. Viva Fidel- wish we had healthcare. I think you need to do a little resear

ch because I see that there is more social justice there than here. They can and do practice free speech and they don't have to do it in a gov't designated "free speech zone".

Viva Fidel

[CubsFan1982]

12. If things are so wonderful there, why are Cubans coming HERE?

Spin that one. I'd love to hear the Communist take on that one.

[ugarte]

15. Let me ask you a couple of questions

Why does the U.S. outlaw Americans from doing business with Cuba or even visiting? If Cuba is as bad as you say it is, why does the U.S. government prevent Americans from seeing with their own eyes what Cuba is like? If America is as free as you say it is, why does our government not allow you to travel where you please?

[CubsFan1982]

16. Why do human rights organizations rate Cuba as one of the worst offenders?

Hmm, maybe THAT might have something to do with it?

[ugarte]

20. What does that have to do with the freedom to travel?

Europeans and Canadians go there regularly and seem to emerge unscathed. Why can't Americans enjoy the same freedoms?

[Catholic Sensation]

22. i'm talking about basic freedoms

and there is limited travel to Cuba for Americans. A friend of mine is going to do some work over there. And quite frankly, it's a shithole I wouldn't want to visit despite what the Defense Department and Cheney might say about the country.

[CubsFan1982]

23. So you could care less about Cuba's human rights record.

You just want to go take a nice vacation, right?

[ugarte]

25. I would like the freedom to travel anywhere I please

Is that unAmerican?

[Catholic Sensation]

18. and if Cuba is so free

explain these comments by Human Rights Watch's condemnations of Cuba:

Condemn Cuba’s imprisonment of individuals based on their exercise of fundamental rights to free expression, association, assembly, or movement, including many imprisoned for human rights monitoring and advocacy.

Call upon Cuba to release persons incarcerated in violation of their fundamental human rights, including the many dissidents, independent journalists and human rights activists who were unfairly prosecuted in April 2003

Press Cuba to undertake legal reforms to bring its domestic laws into compliance with fundamental international human rights norms, including eliminating the offense of contempt for authority (desacato, defamation of institutions and mass organizations and illegal exit, and eliminating or significantly narrowing the definition of Criminal Code provisions relating to enemy propaganda, and clandestine printing

[manic expression]

30. You mean...

the crackdown on US-funded people trying to destabilize Cuba?

"The latest crackdown and confrontation with Washington began last month when Cuba accused the chief American diplomat on the island, James Cason, of encouraging the overthrow of the government. Mr Cason had been travelling around the island, meeting opponents of the government and giving press conferences.

This week he was criticised by one of his predecessors, Wayne Smith, who wrote in a letter to the New York Times that the arrests were the result of 'the blundering tactics of the Bush administration' in ordering Mr Cason to hold critical press conferences."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,930149,00.html

Please.

[CubsFan1982]

32. You don't seem to get this concept of "freedom of expression".

That includes DISSIDENTS and OPPOSITION. Any system that does not is totalitarian.

[manic expression]

35. Dissidents and opposition are tolerated

but being actively supported by the US is not. There is a difference.

[LaPera]

17. Why do so many want to get the fuck out of this imperialistic Bush

suicide?

No one really wants to go anywhere, but, really, to get our country back.

At the same time, we see the poorest of nations at least TRYING to offer its people health care, education, jobs and human rights.

No easy feat when you have a humongous world power trying to destroy your every move, while keeping people from thinking their rights to basic human needs and decency is NOT a right!

Thank you Mr. Limbaugh.

No, its becoming more and more, only for the rich to expect.

[manic expression]

21. Umm....

in every country, people don't like what is going on. Only an idiot would expect every person in a country to like every aspect of that country. Even accepting this, most people flee Cuba because of economic hardship, which is mostly because of the disgusting US embargoes. Also, most of the anti-Cuban government people in the US are fascist Batista sympathizers.

[rudeboy666]

14. funny thing

There are many among us who scream 'fascism' at the drop of a pin.

However, many seem to 'look away' at authoritarians like Castro(or his regime).

[lvx35]

24. They got FREE HEALTHCARE for giving up their civil liberties?!?

I gave up mine and all I got was this this stinking president! ;)

[LaPera]

26. Gave up mine-for no universal health care-but I have the Patriotic Act !

[jzodda]

27. LOL you go into a Cuban hospital and you may never come out

Free does not mean quality. Having seen a cuban hospital up close I can tell you that u do not want to get taken care of in those! :)

[ugarte]

28. Be fair, most countries in the world do not have first-world medical care

But many are much worse than Cuba. 100s of Cuban doctors are in Venezuela and other Latin American countries, giving health care to the poorest of the poor who could never afford to see a doctor or a dentist.

[LaPera]

37. Yes, and honestly, how many here can afford, "first rate medical care"

here in the U.S.?

Ever been to a hospital here without insurance? Forget about paying your rent or mortgage if you unfortunately have to.

They are trying, that's all. And many there are donating their time & efforts to the poorest of poor, how many doctors in Palm Beach, or elsewhere do you know who would do the same...And with absolutely no help from the gracious USA...No easy task...

The U.S. wants to crush them and show capitalism is the ONLY way.

Haven't you had yet enough of the bullshit...or do you just want to insist what you've heard and been told by the media and the imperialist is truth.

Wake up! They are feeding us propaganda, to keep us workers fighting for the corporations...I am not saying, there, is better than here, but at the same time, don't get caught up in their propaganda, that us workers, have it so well here, (our jobs are not secure) we are only workers for them, until they want us no longer...Can you count on your job being there tomorrow, or the best health care when & if you need it, or how about free education for your children, can you afford it?

Where are we getting our info from? Pay attention, by what we've beening told daily by the MSM?

What would you have them do, succumb, (Iraq) to our way of life?

That's the answer?

[ugarte]

38. I agree

It's so much easier to point out other countries' faults than our own.

[jzodda]

50. I do not think Cuba is the model country though

First off in this country it depends on what hospital and whats wrong with you. if you can not pay then you can not pay. The poorest people here are not worried about their credit ratings and are not worried about paying the hospital either. The hospitals know this also and in MANY instances the bill is just wiped off the system after a time

Next have you been to a cuban hosptial? I have..so what do you know about them? The good cuban docs always leave for Miami

you speak in a one sided manner. Like Cuba is somehow a noble country. Well first off GNP wise they were much better before 1959. Next since Russia has stopped handing them freebies what has happened there? Gee there is a lesson in choosing your friends wisely

You want to bring out the ills of the US..Well we have them allright and sure they try to propaganda to us all the time! I see you are not buying it and neither am I. But having said that certainly Cuba is not the model for the way things should be.

[jzodda]

45. yeah but

the best doctors in cuba ALWAYS leave...period...

and you mention Venezuela...They have much better hospitals. The worst is Hatai and then Cuba is the next worst. I have had a chance to see many up close as my dad was a doctor without borders. I had the chance to see many of them growing up.

Some counties who are as poor as cuba have much better hospitals. The level of graft and corruption in cuban hospitals is aweful, reminds me of some of the ones in Lagos.

[ugarte]

49. We're talking apples and oranges

Basic health care for all vs. hospitals for those with money. I'm not disagreeing with you, but these are parallel worlds. The Cuban doctors and dentists in Venezuela are received very warmly, and much needed.

[jzodda]

55. I agree with the notion of

Free healthcare for all. What I am not so sure of is the best way to implement it but I think it should be done. Why spend hundreds of billions on Iraq, and the countless other wasted billions on junk instead of giving all the people of the US good and free healthcare

I wish it was a simple thing though. I realize the problems inherent in starting such a system and the opposition would be fierce. Hope somebody gets some balls in the gov one of these days!

[LaPera]

51. Well the Mansions, the Benz and the Pussy, does entice some, doesn't it?

But not all, many stay and give and/or donate their best.

Is that what its all about, how much we can reap from the unfortunate?

[ConsAreLiars]

29. You seem to think that it is a simple matter of "team loyalty"

and that distorting the facts about the other team is just part of the game. You are being played for a fool, and seem to enjoy that role.

[CubsFan1982]

31. Distorting the facts? WTF is in your Cohiba, dude?

Amnesty International is HARDLY a tool for American propaganda.

[ConsAreLiars]

33. Read AI about what the US is doing to its political prisoners in Gitmo

the rest of the Gulag. Your "outrage" at Cuba is a joke and a delusion. Read AI about US prisons and the legalized murder of children. Read something more that rightwing agitprop. Get a few facts.

[CubsFan1982]

34. You're so quick to recognize it when you see it.

Why don't you condemn Cuba, too? Because that doesn't serve your agenda.

[ConsAreLiars]

36. Attacking Cuba is the PNAC/Bolton agenda, and yours, apparently.

Join them if you wish. The slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocents by your leader seems like it should concern you more than poor conditions in Cuban jails, which, according to AI, are far less odious than the US "justice" system. Defend Bush if you like, by attacking Cuba. I will not join you.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ConsAreLiars]

42. Name calling?

You ally yourself with the fascist agenda and then defend yourself by name-calling? Why am I not surprised? Taking your tactical lessons in political discourse from hate radio, along with your politics, it seems.

[WildEyedLiberal]

43. Get a clue

Disliking totalitarian dictatorships isn't "allying yourself with the fascist agenda." For Christ's sake. So everyone Bush and PNAC hate are automatically doubleplusgood? Even if they too have no regard for human rights, international law, or liberty? Good to know where you stand. :eyes:

[CubsFan1982]

44. Fascist? Oh, that's rich.

I never thought I'd see a time when a pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-separation of church and state, pro-gun control liberal Democrat would be called a fucking fascist for calling a spade a spade and not verbally fellating a vicious Communist dictator.

You don't have any points worth rebutting, all you have is inflammatory rhetoric. When presented with facts, you dismiss them and start blaming the US. When will you take responsibility and admit that the Communist regime you enable and defend is what it is: a murderous, dictatorial regime?

[ConsAreLiars]

54. When will you take responsibility and admit that

Cuba is a far less "murderous, dictatorial regime" than we suffer under in the US. Your attacks on a small nation which has health care and educational stats comparable to the US with 1/10th the per capita income do nothing to reduce the suffering in the world. How many has the "demon" Castro killed. How many have been killed by your president? What percent of the US population is locked up? What percent in Cuba? Talk about blind fanaticism.

[Catholic Sensation]

48. you ally yourself with

an anti-free-speech anti-gay dictator. how "liberal" of you.

[ConsAreLiars]

58. You ally yourself with those who murder children by the thousands.

How "liberal" of you.

[WildEyedLiberal]

64. Too bad you're apparently too dumb to realize that

Calling Castro a dictator does not in any way imply endorsement or support of Bush. I guess condemning totalitarianism isn't across the board with you, huh? You only hate US authoritarianism. Cuban authoritarianism is perfectly okay with you. Why don't you just admit right now that you're just a reactionary who happens to be on the opposite side of the reactionaries who currently control the American government, and you'd be perfectly willing to side with Kim Jong Il against them if need be?

[ConsAreLiars]

66. Well, you're right in part.

I am on the opposite side of the reactionaries who currently control the American government. Unlike those of you who join them in attacking Cuba and Castro. You play into their hand. "Why don't you just admit right now that you're just a reactionary who happens to be on the SAME side as the reactionaries who currently control the American government?"

[WildEyedLiberal]

67. Because my brain is capable of handling more than black and white

Amazingly, I can oppose Castro and Bush, because I don't like authoritarians of any stripe. Neat how that works.

[ugarte]

46. Well, at least you've outed yourself

That must feel better.

[ugarte]

41. Exactly. How many wars has Cuba started?

If the U.S. is such a paragon of virtue, why is it more despised than Cuba? Go anywhere in Latin America and take a poll.

[KitchenWitch]

47. Where do I sign up - if you can't beat em join em

:sarcasm:

Good grief - Granted we have enough injustice in our own country, but why is it wrong to notice injustice and fight it when we find it???

[Catholic Sensation]

52. BECAUSE CUBA IS A "LIBERAL LEFTIST" PARADISE!!!!111ONE

[julianer]

68. Here are some links

so you can make a reasoned comparison concerning human rights in Cuba and the USA

Cuba:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005

USA:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/usa-summary-eng

The Cuba report is more recent. The US report doesn't include the torture at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo or the torture and killings at Bagram, nor does it cover the unknown number of victims that are sent for 'rendition' to various countries.

I think an objective mind would say that the US abuses are far worse than any current in Cuba.

In any case can you describe what you mean by 'freedom'?

[noahmijo]

40. I wouldn't trade one form of fundamentalism for another

And that's just what Communism is; a form of fundamentalism. Sure it's unfair to consistently draw comparison to Stalin or even Lenin when Communism is brought up, but face these facts: everytime it's been tried its resulted in just as much if not more pain, suffering and murder namely because it is based on fundamentalist belief which NEVER works:

You are wrong and I am right.

Bush if a fundamentalist asshole.

Fidel is a fundamentalist asshole.

Bin Laden is a fundamentalist asshole

What makes these people and their philosophies dangerous? it all depends on centralized power only they themselves are the center impossible to be questioned and when you have one man or entity in that position it spells danger for all who do not fall into place.

Like I said I wouldn't trade one fundamentalist prick for another, I'm all for revolution and change, but what good is replacing one form of evil for another?

Back to Cuba, I am not fully educated on the whole situation there I admit that, but I would never support an invasion or a removal of Fidel. That would just create smaller version of Iraq. What I do support however is not giving that nation any benefits or trade rights HOWEVER why the hell we are so buddy buddy with China who is just as bad if not far worse an example of Communism run amok is beyond me.

Thing is Fidel has been in power this long that means he has strong support. If the people of Cuba overall support his policies then fine fuck it it doesn't bother me, but it does bother me that there are the many that are driven to create makeshift boats from old chevys in an attempt to cross over to the USA.

Not that immigrants bother me but the fact that you can think your country is so terrible that you have to make a boat outta WHATEVER you can find......well that's sort of saying something about the qualities of your nation's leadership.

[WildEyedLiberal]

53. Thank you for understanding the point of the thread, seriously

Maturity seems in short supply on this thread. That's EXACTLY why I dislike communism as it exists now. It is an authoritarian, fundamentalist form of government. Authoritarian styles of government are anti-liberal by their very nature. I have no idea why so-called liberals here can claim to get in such a fuss over right-wing authoritarianism and yet conveniently overlook the same on the "left-wing" side of the spectrum.

[noahmijo]

56. well I just noticed this thread and another thread on it I couldn't help

but say something even in my sleepy eyed state.

What's funny is as I've told people when I worked the Kerry campaign for those couple of months interestingly I fought and got into more arguments with people on the left than on the right.

People who basically would label any candidate that was not to the left of Mao as "too conservative"

The only thing I am fully and completely against is fundamentalism. I have no shame in saying I hate it. I don't care if it's religious fundamentalism or political fundamentalism of EITHER side I refuse to tolerate it and be "accepting" of it.

Before anyone says ""oh so you oppose me for thinking a certain way FACIST!" nooo nooo see you're just an idealistic little man with no power. Think Communism or Facism is the way of the future, worship goats, damn all those who refuse to see the power of the popsicle stick I don't care you don't concern me until you're firing off rounds in a beer hall or holding people hostage in the name of revolution...

[jzodda]

57. Amen brother

"The only thing I am fully and completely against is fundamentalism. I have no shame in saying I hate it. I don't care if it's religious fundamentalism or political fundamentalism of EITHER side I refuse to tolerate it and be "accepting" of it.

You hit on how I feel as well 100%

[noahmijo]

60. Well I should say I am a fundamentalist when it comes to one thing

Dream Theater. I will never stop worshipping them. If demands are not concerning this philosophy the streets shall flow with the blood of the nonbelievers!!!!

Actually something I've liked for awhile now Dream Theater tends to not voice any political opinions at all in their songs however lately they've been writing songs that rail against fundamentalism.

In their latest album they have a song that has 9/11 overtones but the blame appears to being placed not on Islam but fundamentalism and how it makes people commit horrific acts.

(Yes the goofball is me and the girl is my gf)

Sorry to change the subject a little on this thread back on topic I guess well there's only so much I can say about fundamentalism it just boils down to it deals in absolutes regardless of fact and reality. This is what makes it dangerous in my opinion.

[WildEyedLiberal]

65. Heh, we both replied to the same post with "Amen brother"

Jinx. :P

[ugarte]

59. You know what? I agree with you

I'm not a person who believes in absolutist doctrines, either, and I am certainly no communist. By the same token I cannot say that I am wholeheartedly for capitalism or that it is the model for every country. That is why I will not categorically condemn the Cuban model like some of the Castro-bashers here, who chest-thump the virtues of the USA.

Cuba preaches economic democracy, the US emphasises market capitalism with greater individual freedoms. Neither is paradise.

[WildEyedLiberal]

62. Amen brother

And yeah, I wasn't gonna post anymore tonight either, but then I saw these threads, and was like, "ah geez."

[ugarte]

61. I think the point of this thread was simply to provoke a flame war

IMHO.

[noahmijo]

63. A flame war? Damn I forgot my blowtorch

help a brotha out?

[Moderator]

69. locking...

This is turned inflammatory.