Interesting second opinion of the Plame case.

[FloridaPat]

http://citizenspook.blogspot.com/2005/08/treasongate-controlling-law-part-2.html

"Don't buy into the mantra that Plame was outed only as a retaliation upon her husband, Joe Wilson. The Bush crime family wouldn't put their necks on the chopping block for Treason just to smear Wilson, especially in light of the fact that they knew Wilson's Niger report was accurate. The risk reward pay off is ridiculously insufficient.

The Bush cabal are not a stupid bunch. You can ridicule Bush, Cheney and the gang all you like, but they're running our country, making billions through Haliburton and the Carlisle group, getting away with torture in open view, and rewriting the Constitution while flipping the middle finger to the main stream media who take that finger, lick it and deposit it in their anatomy on a daily basis...with a smile on their faces.

The only logical reason the intelligent Bush administration would expose themselves to prosecution under the controlling laws of the United States Code by outing Valerie Plame, Brewster Jennings and the CIA, is that they probably had no other choice. It was either expose a major CIA operation to the public at large through co-conspirator, Robert Novak, or allow Plame's CIA division to complete their WMD investigations.

The Bush syndicate must have come to the conclusion that they had a better chance of spinning the outing of Plame to petty retaliation for Wilson's debunking of the Niger document fraud, than they had of surviving an investigation by the CIA of their crimes against the USA and humanity at large, the fixing of intelligence to support a preemptive war and possibly the facilitation of future black op patsies."

"Were Plame's team of CIA agents getting close to some of the things Sibel Edmonds was translating at the FBI, things which might implicate the Bush syndicate in 911 as well as the facilitation of terrorist cells getting their hands on components necessary to develop Nuclear weapons to be used against the USA so that the Bush administration could retaliate by going into Iran, then North Korea and wherever else their imperialist buts saw fit?"

[Goldmund]

1. Bingo. I've thought this for a while now.

No way was this simply a petty attempt at retaliation.

[ClassWarrior]

2. It's ALL of the above.

NGU.

[Jackpine Radical]

35. There's an old Freudian term, "Overdetermined behavior."

Overdetermined behavior is an action that occurs for a number of compelling reasons, and removing any one of the causes would not be enough to prevent the behavior.

The Plame/Wilson case would seem to be one of these.

[blm]

3. Does anyone really think BushInc ever stopped their arms dealing ways?

They and their international financier cronies have been dealing arms to promote wars and chaos for decades.

I would bet that Plame's firm had snagged some of their peripheral contacts and they needed to give a heads up to their cronies.

The biggest proliferators in the world have been the Bushes and their "friends" like Kasshoggi and Menem.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. Yep

It goes back at at least Samuel Bush. They're all traitors who profit from war and the enemy.

[Booster]

4. I wish Fitzgerald would issue a couple of indictments for a few of

the lower people involved in this so at least that much will have been started before his new boss takes over and tries to stop it all.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. I think what Fitzgerald is doing

is making sure of everything and wanting to get everybody at once so that way they can't try to get away and everything.

[H2O Man]

5. That theory

was actually first put forth here on DU, in an article that was picked up by numerous other sources, more than a year ago.

[FloridaPat]

8. I missed it. And I love a good conspiracy. Plus, as dot-connecting as I

am, my mind didn't jump to this conclusion.

So if the CIA knows all this stuff!

[moodforaday]

11. But do we know Plame worked on WMDs?

Do we know what work Valerie Plame and "her" unit was doing? Do we know it was about WMD in Iraq? Or is it just speculation? As far as I know, Plame herself hasn't ever talked about it.

[H2O Man]

14. Time (7-5-04)

the article by Joe Klein identifies Plame as working in investigations of the sale of WMD components. Of course, she can't talk about her work. But there are many other sources confirming this. They include John Dean's book, "Worse Than Watergate"; the 7-22-03 Newsday; and many more. There is no question about what her job was.

As far as WMD in Iraq, I'd hop we could agree that none have been found, although the administration stated that they knew for sure there were plenty there.

[moodforaday]

18. Thank you (nt)

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Yep

Remember when Donald Rumsfeld went on "Meet the Press" and claimed they knew exactly where the weapons were? In Baghdad?

[FreedomAngel82]

26. Yes

She isn't talking about it for a good reason. They will take whatever she says and twist it around. She was apart of the group Brewster Jennings who tracked WMD's and terrorist groups and they were even tracking groups like Halliburton who were trading and dealing with the enemy. So it worked well in their favor for mulitple reason's to out her name. Plus, Rhandi told how in 2003 they were close to getting BinLaden but then she was outed.

[burythehatchet]

13. someone has to be the lone voice in teh wildnerness

eh H2O?

I believe the present day leakers are Bush operatives who are doing another misdirection. Make the revenge angle the story as opposed to what Ms. Plame was doing.

But then why doesn't Joe WIlson state that?

[Straight Shooter]

6. Retaliation against Wilson was just the icing on the cake.

It's also the simplest thing for people to understand, those who can't or won't believe that those in power would actually sabotage efforts to keep our *cough* homeland *cough* safe and secure.

edit typo

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Well if that's the case

just look back at history at Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. To think it doesn't happen here is to be arrogant and foolish I think. America isn't over that. The only country that seems to not do foolish things like that is Canada. :shrug:

[BlueEyedSon]

7. Kick.

[Nite Owl]

9. And that landing on the carrier

that everyone made fun of it had a reason too. He had to be able to say the war was over. That was about a month or so before the Plame outing. And now the removal of the language 'war on terror'. One thing we know this bunch has down well is control of the language.

[warrens]

10. The CIA doesn't investigate

The FBI does.

[skids]

12. wikipedia needs an update.

Right now they have a section saying that the possible motive was that Plame had information on Peak Oil. Nothing about Halliburton selling nuke parts, nothing about any of the above.

So wiki editors take note -- no doubt this page is perpetually in a churn of controversy and probably changes need to be voted on. So be sure to check the discussion area.

[Festivito]

15. Plame outed to hide move in fake Iraqi WMD's?

Had WMD's been found, the press would have gone ballistic with fear. Adding: what might Iran have if Iraq had this. *Admin gets atta-boy press. WMD spy was outed but WMDs were found anyway. The outing could be overshadowed hyper fear, and besides, Bushies were becoming too desperate since old Saddam actually had rid Iraq of WMDs. Who'da thunk it.

Did Kelly in UK have more than an inkling, so he had to commit suicide? PNAC became a lackluster episode of Pinky and the Brain.

The rest of the Brewster needed to be driven underground, so it was outed a few days later stopping any do-gooders from figuring out WHO was initiating the WMD trading that would end up in Iraq.

Outing Wilson was just creamy icing on the cake, like a sign from god. (Only, why is god so very warm, red, and wearing a spiked tail; they just don't understand yet.)

Playing with this is like writing a novel, only it's to be non-fiction!

[starroute]

16. Why was Jack Abramoff lobbying for Pakistan in the 90's?

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that many of the answers to the mysteries of the Bush years are to be found in what these people and corporations were doing back in the 1990's, particularly in Pakistan and in Central Asia.

http://www.iacfpa.org/p_news/nit/iacpa-archieve/2005/05/20/investigation-cap-200505.html

Lobbyist Jack Abramoff is being investigated for taking a group of legislators to Islamabad without telling them he was a registered lobbyist for the Pakistan government.

According to a recent (May 7) New York Times article, Abramoff went to Pakistan with a number of Congressmen in early 1997, who now say that they were not informed of the possible conflict-of-interest.

Meanwhile, he had allegedly been lobbying for the revocation of sanctions in place against Pakistan for pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

See also http://www.spinwatch.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=922

Abramoff's been under scrutiny for his connections to DeLay -- not to the Bush administration. But the current story about Bush removing a federal prosecutor to protect Abramoff in 2003 raises questions about Abramoff's other dubioous connections.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/08/08/bush_removal_ended_guam_investigation

A US grand jury in Guam opened an investigation of controversial lobbyist Jack Abramoff more than two years ago, but President Bush removed the supervising federal prosecutor, and the probe ended soon after.

The previously undisclosed Guam inquiry is separate from a federal grand jury in the District of Columbia that is investigating allegations that Abramoff bilked Indian tribes out of millions of dollars.

[FreedomAngel82]

29. I think so too

I definietly think so. Very strange he was doing that. Bush brings in those who will help their agenda and those who he knows are loyalists. Why else is he bringing back so many people who were either in the Reagan and/or Bush I administration's? Remember these people have been planning this for several years now and more for all we know. For all we know Cheney and Rumsfeld could've been planning this since they met in Nixon's administration. I remember listening to an interview on Alex Jones's prison planet website on a guy who claimed to know Cheney since college and he was planning this even then. I don't remember this guys name though. I think he was doing a lawsuit against them but I never heard anything else about it.

[blm]

36. Pakistan was a driving force in BCCI - check out Kerry's report from 1992

and his "unanswered questions" from BCCI that need further examination. The very first outstanding question was Pakistan's role in weapons' proliferation and funding.

[blm]

38. starroute, your post needs its own thread.

.

[jbnow]

17. Oh hubris could make them that stupid but

there is NO reason Brewster Jennings would have to be mentioned, except to out Brewster Jennings. That did not discredit Wilson at all, even if they though the wife story might.

That struck me from the start, especially since they revealed the WMD connection. WTF? They put at risk whatever network of connections just as an add on? Because that didn't help discredit Wilson...and there had to be a reason.

I am no psychic, but any time I have gotten an eerie feeling about that I ALWAYS see Cheney's face.

I hope this is revealed in time...intime for what? I don't know. To stop something this is leading to if unchecked.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. And also

didn't they have the memo of Wilson's wife way before he ever wrote the OP piece (like three months before)??? So how would they know Wilson was going to write his piece? I think that whole line they're giving is total crap. And yes with Cheney and the whole lot of them I get very very creepy vibes. :\ It's pure evil.

[Nothing Without Hope]

19. I've suspected this for some time. It's not random that Plame's work

dealt with getting facts about WMDs - there are some truths that the Bushies can't afford. No way this was just a trivial knockdown against Wilson after the fact of his column.

I'm glad to finally see this and wish that it was more widely discussed.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. Don't forget that Brewster Jennings

also followed Halliburton and BinLaden. According to Rhandi on her show not long ago she told how they were close to getting BinLaden in 2003 but then her name and the group were outed so that whole group that had information became void and useless.

[Nothing Without Hope]

32. Thanks, I HAD forgotten and I shouldn't have. Here is a link

on the Brewster Jennings connection:

Rhandi Rhodes: http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/node/211

This CIA operation was gathering info on the involvement of Bush Administration connections like ARAMCO in weapons proliferation. Obviously, that had to be scuttled - and was.

It's not just Joseph Wilson they were taking down - it was this dangergous (for the bloody-handed Bushes) investigation.

[Nothing Without Hope]

20. Good American Prospect article on Libby's involvement in the leak

in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=145717&mesg_id=145717
Thread title: New Confirmation that Libby was a Source for Miller

Maybe they will try to pin Libby as the fall guy - as if Cheney's Chief of Staff would do anything his boss didn't order. If Cheney really was involved, it's that much more certain that this was NOT primarily about attacking Wilson's credibility, it was about stopping WMD investigations by Plame and her colleagues.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. Yes

Maybe this is why Fitzgerald is very very silent on the case. He doesn't want to give any clues away that could make them change and run and all that. I think they're just as clueless as to what he has as we are which is why, I think, Bush hired this new guy who has ties to him to spy on Fitzgerald and try to find out what he has and what his plans are and try to save Bushco. On AAR last night on the "Majority Report" Laura Flanders was talking about this new guy to someone (an investigative reporter) and supposivley Fitzgerald is very independent and this won't have any effect on the case.

[Zan_of_Texas]

21. Ray McGovern said yesterday the forgery was "an inside job."

McGovern worked at the CIA for 27 years, and still has contacts inside.

Ray McGovern
on Sunday Monitor, KPFT, August 7, 2005
Hosts: Mark Bebawi and Pokey Anderson


EXCERPT

McGovern is discussing Joe Wilson's public challenge to the Bush administration's premise of Iraq supposedly seeking uranium...

Ray McGovern (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity):
...And Rove said -- I'm sure, he and Cheney, you know -- 'We can't let this happen without retaliation because there are hundreds of people in this government that know about the lies. And if they get the idea that they can with impunity release the lies to the press we are in trouble deep.' And that -- and Joe is convinced of this as well -- that is why they retaliated in whatever way they felt they could. They had no goods on Joe, so wives were fair game, as someone was famously told. So that was the reason they had to retailiate.

And then, there was another reason, and it's equally important. And that is, this whole story was based on a forgery. Now, why was it that when Jay Rockefeller, the Ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, asked Pat Roberts, the Ranking Republican, the Chair, "Shouldn't we have the FBI look into this forgery? This is very very odd," Senator Roberts said, "No no, that would be inappropriate."

Mark Bebawi, co-host:
Hmmm. And this forgery of course was the documentation claiming that Iraq had been trying to obtain the uranium.

Ray McGovern:
That's exactly right. Now, who did the forgery? I ask you, who did the forgery? Why is the United States Government not interested in finding out who did the forgery? Do you know why? Because it was an inside job.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. Inappropriate???

If a democratic administation did this they'd be allll over it. How hypocritical! Roberts knows and is trying to protect the person who did this. I think it's Bush. They're all loyal to him and they know if they aren't they'd be destroyed by Karl Rove. And yes. It was an inside job and thus Bush was involved. He's involved in everything from stealing 2000 to 2004 to the outing of Valerie Wilson and he approved of the PNAC groups plans. If you haven't watch the film "The War Party" at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info I think this film will make a lot of sense now....

[burrowowl]

22. KICK! eom

[FreedomAngel82]

23. The thing with this administration

is everything they do leads back to the same person and for the same purpose. So I do see this as a possibility very highly.

[Peace Patriot]

37. Wilson said in an interview (Raw Story maybe?) that he'd called Condi

Rice, to get the regime to disavow the Niger claim, and she told him (through intermediaries) that she was not interested in his information, but, if he was so concerned about it, why didn't he publish it?

That's almost word for word. So they were expecting publication, and were even baiting him. Maybe the whole Niger trip was a set-up.

But I think the critical thing is the immediate cause of the outing, which I think is indicated by this time-line:

May 22, 2003: David Kelly, Brits chief weapons inspector, starts whistleblowing to the BBC, after the invasion, about Brits "sexed up" Iraq intel.

June 10, 2003: Plame "top secret" memo composed--ends up on AF-1 on the Africa trip July 5-12. (They definitely had something planned for Wilson/Plame, but then...)

June 30, 2003: Brit intel finds out who is whistleblowing to the BBC (their chief WMD expert Kelly).

July 6, 2003: Wilson publishes.

July 7, 2003: After Kelly is interrogated, Blair is told that Kelly "could say some uncomfortable things"--"COULD say," not HAD said. (Hutton report.) Blair warns Bush (my guess).

July 5-12: Panic on AF-1 (my guess). Contact with at least SIX reporters, and involvement of many people inclu Rove and Libby back in U.S.--high risk of treason charges--"Call everybody you know! Get her outed NOW!" Scattershot effort: somebody, anybody.

July 14, 2003: Plame outed (Novak takes the bait).

July 18, 2003: Kelly found dead, under extremely suspicious circumstances; his office and computers searched.

July 22, 2003; Brewster-Jennings outed (by Novak)--disabling all CIA WMD monitoring projects--a 20 year effort--putting all covert agents and contacts at great risk, at even more risk of treason charges.

What did Kelly know? What were the "uncomfortable things" that Blair was warned Kelly "could say"?

I think that was the trigger for the Plame outing--and why they did it so precipitously and at high risk of treason charges, not Wilson's article, which they expected.

SOMETHING turned Kelly around about the war in April-May 2003. He had supported it; wanted Saddam ousted. Then he starts whistleblowing AFTER the invasion. I think it was this: a plot to PLANT nukes or other WMDs in Iraq for the enormous political gain. They had Judith Miller all primed for the "scoop"--running around Iraq with the US troops "hunting" for WMDs they all knew weren't there. Were they just waiting around, hoping some would be found? Not likely. They had them in motion through an illicit network to Iraq. Somebody foiled it, maybe Kelly himself. BJ/Plame found out, or might find out, or were involved in foiling their nefarious little scheme. (--content of Kelly's computers). That's why the BJ outing (much too excessive for "punishment" of Wilson).

The two plots intersected on July 7--Plame and Kelly. Long term plot to "get" the CIA. Short term panic at what Kelly "could say."

I've thought this one through from several angles--what I know of Miller (pheeuw! --old friend of Kelly's; maybe outed him to Brit intel; his last email to her about "the many dark actors playing games" etc, etc, etc, etc....); the details of Kelly's "suicide", character and state of mind (this "suicide" smells to high heaven); and other things, like the story that Wilson being married to a CIA WMD expert somehow taints or discredits him (doesn't make sense--it would seem to ENHANCE his ability to perform the Niger mission--concocted story); and the haste and stupidity of how they outed her--contact with 6 reporters, etc.

It holds up as a good working hypothesis, re: the immediate circumstances of "Treasongate" (--maybe "Murdergate"). And it certainly fits a general hypothesis that the Bush Cartel was protecting illicit arms deals, bin Laden, and a whole lot else along these lines, and that BJ was in a good position to detect their evil deeds.

My general theory now is that the "good CIA" (those who wouldn't drink the Bush Cartel koolaid) is trying to prevent the nuking of Iran and a holocaust in the Middle East (which, according to Carl Sagan, would be a holocaust for us all--i.e., "The Cold and the Dark"--which describes what even a limited nuclear exchange would do to the planet). I'm afraid that the Bush Cartel Republicans (the Saudi Arabian party) being in control of our nuclear arsenal and our armed forces is the blowback of all blowbacks. Maybe the "good CIA" can redeem the many evil deeds of the bad CIA. Let's hope so.

Meanwhile, election reform! Now!

[blm]

39. Your post, too, deserves its own thread.

There are several key posts on this thread.

[blue agave]

40. I recently posted a similar opinion -

I can't wait to see where Fitz goes with this. Every day I await another clue comming out of the investigation. We need more patriotic leakers, but I fear there are no pats in this admin, or they are afraid to talk.