DON'T GO TO CRAWFORD

[Goldmund]

I've seen much discussion about going to Crawford and joining Cindy, both here and on Kos.

I think it's a bad idea. For a few reasons:

1) She's already getting more MSM coverage than we ever did with mass rallies in big cities. The kind of an event that she is staging is inherently deeply personal, and large numbers would dillute its strength, not increase it;

2) The claim that Cindy is a threat to national security -- the pretext they will use if they arrest her -- is grotesque on its face. It won't be nearly as grotesque if there are tens of thousands of protesters near the Bush pig farm.

Now, if she DOES get arrested, as they've threatened, THEN the nature of this event will transform. THEN I would support going down there and staging a mass event.

But until then, let's send her money, food, support, try to get exposure for her... And let's not spoil the good thing she's got going.

On Edit: many people have posted "She asked for people to join her". My take on that is that I am not sure that she was aware of the kind of response she would get. She may have been imagining 20 or 50 people joining her, not 20 or 50 thousand.

Either way, she is clearly doing this straight from the heart, and she's hit a PR jackpot. It doesn't make her an authority on political strategy. Even if she disagrees, I think that a mass event in Crawford would hurt her cause.

Another edit: Just to clarify -- I think staging mass events at other places, in support of her, would be productive. Not Crawford. Crawford is Cindy's stage -- the rest of us need to make our own.

[KyndCulture]

1. I disagree. This is a focal point now

I think there should be more people.

[fooj]

2. She has ASKED for support. (as in people)

Peace.

[Goldmund]

3. Why?

It IS a focal point, I agree.

But that doesn't automatically imply that it should be made into a mass event.

[mwb970]

9. We don't have many opportunities like this one.

People feel helpless and want to do something. This is something.

[Goldmund]

21. It's something, yes

Let's keep it that way is all I'm saying.

[shanti]

35. this has become bigger than cindy sheehan

i don't think your plea is going to make a differnce in the number of people who show up. it's too late now. more people WILL show up!

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

129. I love the spontaneity of this outpouring of support.

I think it is very powerful.

[Skidmore]

12. They can't put the whole nation in Gitmo.

If people stand up, they have to stand up en masse.

[bryant69]

20. Well, yeah they can

And we aren't talking about the whole nation are we? How many could actually get there, do you think?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[CAcyclist]

96. Umm, no, they can't. nt

[KyndCulture]

23. Simple. Because she asked for it.

[Goldmund]

25. See my edit

[KyndCulture]

32. Still disagree - Cindy KNOWS what the response will be.

She is the anti-war movement. She's involved every day. I think that 10,000 people showing up will not surprise her.

[G_j]

68. she has been at many rallies around the country

including one in our town where about 200 ppl attended.
If she has indeed asked for people to come and support her, then she is aware of what that might entail.
I wouldn't second quess her request.

[rodeodance]

5. I think more people is the answer.

[MissMarple]

6. This is about Cindy and Casey. Support rallies might be better.

Candle vigils might work ,too. IMHO In many, many locations.

[doublethink]

31. Timing, opportunity ..... a lot comes to my mind on this ....

it's a calling .... what Candle light vigils, support rallies will draw the potential media attention that this has? IMHO ... they just might not. Cindy is out there to try and prevent her circumstances on other parents and their kids sent off to this illegal war. We cry and cry and cry for America to wake up ... and then when Americans start to take action ... we say .... uh ... wait a minute .... I say go for it. Peaceful protest is as American and anything and it is our right and our duty. Peace. :)

[MissMarple]

47. Big Eddie is agreeing with you. He said maybe this is the only way to get

answers. However, I think it would be good if this took fire across the country, as well. Every soldier's mother, father, wife, husband, sister, brother, child should ask the same questions. Out loud.

[doublethink]

54. Now were talking .....

... just because someone can't get to Crawford doesn't mean that's the only place in the Country to take part in this AWAKENING. Now everybody blink your eyes, rub the sand out and let's get busy. We can all do something. At the very least get as much information out to the media, family and friends on Cindy now. And get this fire going, like you put it across the Country. LOUDER. Prayers and Peace. :)

[Imagevision]

64. This Sheehan story will hurt Bush, Kill her son, arrest his mother.

Wait until Bush announces that we'll be sending more troops to Iraq before we'll be sending any home...

[proud patriot]

4. Interesting I had not looked at it that way

I'm still not sure I agree though since Cindy Sheehan
requested people to join her .

[lonestarnot]

8. I'm not sure I agree either.

[Goldmund]

13. I'm not sure she was realizing what kind of an echo that would create

I think she was imagining 20 or 50 people joining her -- not 20 or 50 thousand. Of course, that's speculation on my part -- either way, the fact that she has a big heart and brass ovaries doesn't mean she's the authority on political strategy.

[NoSheep]

26. Would it be possible for someone to relay your thoughts to her?

I think you may have a point. Go down there AFTER she is arrested. Because they will arrest her if she is still there. I think she should be asked to consider your opinion directly.

[Goldmund]

45. I dunno

However, I'm not the only one saying something similar to this on the left side of the Internets today. I'm sure somebody has relayed a thought like this to her. :)

[NoSheep]

50. I do think you may have a very good point. And you're right to think

it has been discussed.

[proud patriot]

39. she said she'd feel safer with more people with her

:hug:

[BeTheChange]

41. Interesting thoughts..

I do think that with the current status of affairs if hundreds or thousands of people start showing up without a protest permit then this thing is going to get shut down really quick...

I dont know how I feel about that exactly. Depends on how many people could get there.

[wildwww2]

125. This war crime is a crime against humanity. A Karl Rove political

strategist is not what is needed. Our faux leaders respecting our 1st ammendment rights is what is needed. And Bu$h Inc. only respects the haves and have mores. Those type of people want Cindy to just fade away like the 9-11 commision report. I say flood the cowards 5 mile away ditch with as many people as we can get. I would drive from Florida to be there. But I have my son`s meet the teacher open house tommorow and he starts kindergarten on Friday. I am a stay at home dad and my wife teaches school. But my letter to the Crawford support group for Cindy is in the mail. I would like to thank anyone who can go for me and give my support to Cindy against the war criminal who killed her son for the profit of the haves and have mores. She has a son no more. Screw political strategy I say. She is not trying to get elected. And neither are her supporters. They just want the poor excuse for a man (who never admits to making a mistake) to take responsibility for his royal scam.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[earth mom]

135. Well said!

Cindys son is dead so that * & his buddies could profit from the War. That alone is what should be broadcast loud and clear to the masses: that U.S. soldiers and their families are pawns for the rich. If it takes thousands to go to Crawford to get the message across, so be it.

Cindy deserves all of our support. Wish I could be there myself.

[pacalo]

16. Same here.

I do think all the groups of veterans & soldiers' families are effective in joining Cindy. I do wish there were more mothers joining her. I don't see how they could be turned away without looking like the @ssholes they (* & his handlers) truly are.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

7. Heard Cindy say what she needed was for

people to come. Think that was on the
Laura Flanders show Saturday Night.

Plus going, (which for me would be a week
from now) I'm sending money, I'm calling
my congressman, senators, writing
news stations. This deserves all
the attention we can physically and
mentally muster.

Peace

[lonestarnot]

10. Also heard her say that.

[doublethink]

11. We gotta take this shit to the streets sooner or later .......

I prefer sooner ..... WAKE UP AMERICA ..... Thank God for people like Cindy in our country .... peaceful protest is our right. Never give up never surrender. Peace. :)

[KyndCulture]

29. AMEN! If not now when? How much longer can this wait???

[steve2470]

14. I think if people go, they need to try to keep it somewhat orderly

so the local cops can't cite national security or some such garbage and "justifiably" arrest people.

[Midlodemocrat]

15. That 'national security' thing is such a bunch of bushit.

Millions of people are within five miles of that POS when he is in DC.

What utter crap.

[steve2470]

19. I agree completely

I just want to keep this event pure so the RW can't bash it very easily.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. I wasn't trashing you, Steve2470.

Hope you didn't take it that way. I was saying that the national security thing is crap and if that is the best they can do...I say.

Bring. It. On.

[steve2470]

33. oh I know you weren't.

I was just adding more :-) Thanks for your sensitivity :-)

[rniel]

17. The media has managed to marginalize

a very large number of 100's of thousands of protesters better than a small group like this one. I don't know how they do it. But it seems to be what happens.

[Lars39]

18. "Today is the beginning of the end of the occupation of Iraq."

Where Bush goes, the people go.
It's called building a movement to hound him out of office.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[CAcyclist]

22. I Disagree Vehemently

There is *NO* protest *EVER* where "large numbers would dilute its strength". That's just nuts.

The ONLY thing that might give President Bush pause is if the numbers start swelling. Imagine if people could just shut down traffic on that road by the sheer size of the crowd. Now, wouldn't that be something?

The idea that somehow a large crowd of protesters becomes a national security threat is offensive to those of us in the antiwar protest crowd - or to me, anyway. Peaceful protest is not a threat.

These ideas that you have sound like something the Republicans would try to say to stop us, not something that a progressive would say - I am *not* calling you a Republican - but you need to realize that's how it sounds to me. A lot of time people on this side repeat talking points that originated from the Republican sound machine without even realizing it.

[Goldmund]

34. How it sounds to you is irrelevant

"The idea that somehow a large crowd of protesters becomes a national security threat is offensive to those of us in the antiwar protest crowd"

It's offensive to me too. Of course peaceful protest is not a threat.

But try to dissassociate from your own aesthetic, and simply look at it in terms of effectiveness. PR effectiveness, that is. 20 thousand join her, and voila: Rush will claim she's a stooge of "the Michael Moore left", right-wing talking heads will spin this as a risk to *Numbnuts. '

A cursory look at the MSM coverage of Cindy vs. that of anti-war rallies of the past will tell you that numbers don't have much to do with the PR value of a protest. Some depend on numbers, some don't. Cindy obviously didn't get this far based on numbers.

I think the only thing that can get Bush out of this mess is 50 thousand protesters in Crawford.

[CAcyclist]

74. Look at it from a different angle.

Sheehan puts out a call to people to join her. Only a handful show up .

What is the natural conclusion of the media? That she's just a lunatic that no one is actually paying attention to or else people would have shown up to support her. She'll look pathetic. the media will lose interest in her story.

You can't compare the anti-war rallies to this. That was a different time. Most people wanted to give the president a chance then. The media wanted to appear patriotic. Now, most people oppose the war.

Anyway, who says the protests didn't have any effect? Just because we couldn't stop the war from starting - that's a pretty high expectation. The Vietnam war was protested for what - eight years? before it ended and protesters had to die. We're doing pretty good if people are this fed up now and if the protests had only continued, maybe we would have ended the war by now.

Who says the protests didn't have any coverage? I read plenty of articles in the paper about the protests when they happened. The people proclaiming loud and clear that the protests were't being covered or being noticed were the Republicans. Because the Republicans wanted the protests to stop.

We have got to stop listening to the liars and start listening to our hearts.

Protests are the only way to change the country - protests are effective and we need to keep doing them.

[Goldmund]

75. I didn't say protests had no effect

I've gone to almost every single one in NYC and DC -- I wouldn't have if I thought they had no effect. What I'm saying is that those protests depended on numbers, and this one does not.

"Sheehan puts out a call to people to join her. Only a handful show up.

What is the natural conclusion of the media? That she's just a lunatic that no one is actually paying attention to or else people would have shown up to support her. She'll look pathetic. the media will lose interest in her story."

Not if support is demonstrated in other ways, which I fully support and urge. "Join her" by doing something in your area, or create a parallel event somewhere else -- let Crawford remain the drama of a lone mother facing the President who sent her son to death.

"Who says the protests didn't have any coverage? I read plenty of articles in the paper about the protests when they happened. The people proclaiming loud and clear that the protests were't being covered or being noticed were the Republicans. Because the Republicans wanted the protests to stop."

I didn't say that they didn't get any coverage. I said that the coverage is not proportional to numbers, as is obvious. I also think that compared to their importance, they didn't get nearly the coverage they deserved. And Cindy is getting that coverage, despite the low numbers; the low numbers are a part of the reason she's getting that coverage, because, again, this is like an ancient Greek drama.

I support protests. Why are you taking my comments in such a blanket way? I go to almost all anti-Bush protests I can possibly make it to. I'm not against protests, to the contrary. I only think we shouldn't spoil this one.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goldmund]

98. I'm a dude with an opinion.

Don't listen to me. I didn't ask to be listened to, but I merely invited discussion of opinion. If you can't handle it, get out of the kitchen.

As far as your "the only time protests were effective is when there were big numbers", I can't believe I have to point this out to you... But... HELLO???? What about the one now???

[CAcyclist]

105. What one now?

There's no organized protest that anyone can point at. We need to have one, but we don't.

[Goldmund]

107. Cindy herself!

Dig?

Is that not a protest? Is her tiny protest not making a big impact?

[CAcyclist]

112. And You Are Trying To Marginalize It

By seeing to it that no one joins her.

[Goldmund]

113. LOL nice copout.

[CAcyclist]

115. You are Hurting The Effort. Stop It. nt

[Goldmund]

147. Comrade: spare me the bullshit.

[DearAbby]

146. Do you remember the handful showed up at the hospice for Shiavo

and the media circus that went on there? The media made it out to be a serious protest...this would actually be a serious statement, standing with this brave Mother of a fallen soldier.

I would think that they would be trembling at the thought of possibly arresting this woman. What message is that sending to the troops overseas? How do you think this is being received by those in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Goldmund]

154. Hello?

Are we all of a sudden assuming the media is objective? The Schiavo protest fit into a whole different part of the political puzzle from this one.

[datasuspect]

140. who in the fuck gives two shits about what rush says

except neanderthals?

[Goldmund]

155. Why are you so literal?

Of course I don't care what Rush thinks, but I do care what effect a demonstration has on the public -- since that is the sole purpose of any demonstration.

[Patchuli]

211. I disagree with you as well

Rush Limbaugh is going to talk crap whether Cindy has 50 or 50,000 protesters with her. Matt Drudge is already trying to smear her. I think she and we need to tell them to piss off. Trying to stop the war is too important to worry about useless people like Rush or Drudge. And besides, how low and slimey is a man who'd smear a Gold Star Mom?!

Numbers do matter to the press. If it's just a few protesters, they will ignore it.

And nothing is going to get Bush out of his mess, in this world or the one beyond!

[helderheid]

122. I agree

We need more - many many many more

[William Seger]

24. Disagree

In addition to simply showing wide support for her cause, if the MSM doesn't have something new to report, the story could easily die off. Having supporters show up on their own spontaneous volition, without preplanned organization, would at the very least help to keep the story in the news cycle.

[NoSheep]

30. i see your point, but is it possible our support will help her more AFTER

she is arrested? I think someone should ask HER! What do you think?

[TahitiNut]

28. So, if the entire nation showed up in Crawford, would that be ...

... the theoretical maximum "threat to national security"?? I fail to follow any logic that implies that the more people who demonstrate opposition to Smirk's War Crimes then the worse it is. :shrug:

[Goldmund]

38. I didn't say that

I said that if the Crawford event in particular becomes a mass protest, it would be for the worse.

I think that demonstrating in support of Cindy in other places across the country would be cool.

Just not going there.

[CAcyclist]

91. That's Just your Opinion

and I think as much of it as you think of my opinion. You don't know any better than anyone else.

I think what's hurting Sheehan is your call to ignore what Cindy is asking us to do. It defies common sense and I am sure that if there are other voices on left wing discussion groups repeating this then it is definitely coming from the Rove sound machine and you are the unwitting bearer of this particular virus.

You don't have to go there. I'm not going either because I live in California and I can't just shut the clinic down at a moment's notice, but I'd be there if I could. Just stop being a wet blanket.

[Goldmund]

161. What are you, O'Reilly?

Stop telling me to shut up, alright?

It's a "wet blanket" because you think what you think. From my standpoint the position you are taking is counterproductive (as I've been saying), and therefore it makes as much sense to call it "unwittingly participating in a Rovian scheme" or whatever.

As I said in another post, my comfort is that most of y'all who are advocating going down there and turning this into yet-another anti-war protest are a bit like Republicans and going to Iraq: all gung-ho until the time comes to actually walk the walk, and then you have other obligations etc.

[Patchuli]

215. I'd go if I could too

but since I can't, I am sending Cindy a postcard of support and some funds through True Majority!

You can always support her by sending money for her!

Mothers of Fallen Soldiers Demand That Bush Level with Them
Help Pour on the Pressure by Supporting the Great Work of Gold Star Families for Peace

Cindy Sheehan is bravely demanding Bush explain why her son died fighting in Iraq. She shared her story at a TrueMajority-sponsored event in April:
"Mr. President...don't spill our country's precious lifeblood."

Her voice is powerful. Please contribute so more can hear it.

The tide is turning against support for the Iraq War. Now's the time to generate attention, and here's an important way to do it.

We've known from the beginning that America's attack on Iraq was unnecessary, ill-advised and just plain wrong. Finally, surveys show that the rest of America now agrees -- the latest polls show most citizens do not feel safer with the war in Iraq and most now agree we should get the troops back home within the year <1>. Now is the time to push that message home harder than ever.

The most effective spokespeople for bringing the troops home are the mothers, fathers and family members of soldiers killed in Iraq, who are demanding to know why President Bush sent their sons, daughters, husbands and wives off to die. Cindy Sheehan, whose 24-year-old son Casey was killed last year in Sadr City, has drawn international media attention with her brave vigil outside Bush' ranch in Crawford, Texas <2>, on behalf of Gold Star Families for Peace. Our support will allow her to keep it up and help her group take the action to the next level.

Please contribute to help them do it.

President Bush plans visits around the country during his five-week vacation, hoping for friendly media coverage away from Washington. But a member of Gold Star Families for Peace can dog him wherever he goes, demanding he meet with them to explain why their family members are dead. Our media advisors tell us this will build more support for ending the Iraq quagmire.

If we can raise $50,000, we can keep members of military families on the president's trail throughout the summer. You can keep this story in the news and keep the tide in this country turning against this war.

This is a crucial moment. Let's seize it and hand a giant megaphone to our best voices for peace.

Please contribute to keep Gold Star Families pressuring President Bush.

In hope,

Duane Peterson
TrueMajority Coordinator
http://tinyurl.com/aptqo: :patriot:

[CAcyclist]

93. When Up is Down, you have entered

the republican noise machine and its unwitting bearers

[Goldmund]

162. Unwitting?

I just cashed a huge check, SUCKAZ!!!

[Patchuli]

Good! Then you're able to donate! :-) nt

[Javaman]

36. Who has directions to crawford from Austin?

I know, I know, I live in Texas and don't know where crawford is, blah blah blah. I just choose not to know where the moron* pit is.

[BeTheChange]

52. Hop on I35N..

http://maps.google.com/maps?spn=1.543027,2.536194&saddr=Pflugerville,+Texas&daddr=crawford,+tx&hl=en

[Javaman]

145. Thank you mucho!!!

I'll be there this weekend!

[meganmonkey]

37. Honestly - What we need is NONSTOP MASS ACTION right now

that is the ONLY way to stop this war machine from running us all over.

If the Crawford Protest grows and grows and lasts, say the next 6 weeks, and then spills into the DC protests on Sept. 24, and never stops...

That could be the only chance we have.

Keep this in the headlines NONSTOP.

I'll be in DC, and I am starting to look into the possibility of taking a few days off work in the near future for Crawford (although I doubt I can afford the time/money).

I understand where you're coming from, but after thinking about it for a while I think this may be a great starting point.

[NoSheep]

67. I'm leaning more your way right now, meganmonkey.

[marions ghost]

87. am on your wave

:thumbsup: it needs to be a nonstop effort now...

[Sgent]

40. What I would love to see

is family of our troops there with her, I think that will make a bigger statement.

[Goldmund]

42. Yes, I agree

[mwb970]

44. More mothers!

How can the Rovians villify mothers??

[Stephanie]

43. There's always someone opining that we'll 'hurt our cause' by acting

"Sit down! Shut up! You'll hurt our cause!"

[Goldmund]

46. Oh puhleeze...

:eyes:

Can you read?

[Stephanie]

49. The second most irritating post at DU, after the "our cause" post -

is the little rolly eyes thingy.

[Goldmund]

53. OK, so then we're both irritated.

[Stephanie]

55. Cool

[DefenseLawyer]

48. At this point she has their attention

I think a huge rally couldn't possibly hurt her cause. In the media age, pictures of a huge crowd will drive home the point to most people (who already have questions about the war themselves) that LOTS of people have those same questions. If 50 thousand people are there, how can Rush Limbaugh say "she is one fringe woman out of the mainstream"? If they think a peaceful protest is a threat to national security let them arrest 50,000 people.

[Goldmund]

51. They WILL shut it down.

And they'll claim that any president would disallow a huge gathering in opposition to him, without a permit, on the edges of his personal property.

It would be easy for OxyMoron to spin it -- much easier than it would be if it remained a tiny crowd and the cops arrested her under the pretext of "national security".

[DefenseLawyer]

57. How do they spin

that 50 thousand people show up to protest the war? I see how they could spin why they shut it down, but it will eventually disperse on its own anyway. Why not make them shut it down? I guess I am missing the downside.

[Goldmund]

60. The same way the spun it when 500,000 showed up to protest the war

The same way they spun almost 2,000 illegal arrests at the RNC.

And that wasn't in front of POTUS' personal property.

[hayu_lol]

59. before you protest too much...

Think about this: The PNAC'ers needed a 'Pearl Harbor Event.' They got it...or planned and carried one out. Take your choice.

This is a Pearl Harbor Event for us. Thanks to Cindy, we have something to focus on. The more people who show up in support...the more attention will be drawn to Cindy's message and presence. To worry about the large number of people...would be a DLC/DNC attitude...that of Daschle, Gebhardt, Miller, Lieberman kind of attitude...and we have had enough of those who, in the words of Bartcop, won't fight.

This is the cause...one unarmed grieving mother of a dead soldier wants answers...she deserves answers...and she needs the support of every one of us. NOW!

[Goldmund]

61. Yes, we need to be vocal about our support,

and that may mean staging mass events.

But please, not in Crawford. That is HER stage.

[marions ghost]

90. and if they shut it down

it still shows visible support...and gets media attention.

The argument to let Cindy go it alone down there (so she looks more pathetic as a threat to national security and more 'sincere') has problems too. I think she might end up just looking pathetic...period. And that would not be good. At some point we have to just be prepared to meet their spin with our spin.

[Goldmund]

101. She's already down there

And she's getting all the attention she could possibly want, and not looking pathetic at all.

[marions ghost]

123. I realize she's there...

(the way I used it --"go IT alone" means "left unsupported") :)

...however it all depends on the media as to whether anybody still KNOWS she's there 5 days from now. So she still might end up looking kind of pathetic...with everyone chalking it up to one mother's grief catharsis. Beyond this concern with appearances, the group down there seems to need help of the practical kind. I think we should spend less time assessing what the fallout will be and let Cindy and Co direct this. The majority who go will be sensitive to that. Right now her website says to come if you can. The people who should be there will be the ones that go, more than likely.

[CAcyclist]

95. Right, the same way they shut down our Critical Mass rides?

SF Critical mass rides are spontaneous and don't have a permit, but the police have found they can't shut it down, they can only try to manage the edges. Truly, when the people are united, they can't be divided.

When there's enough people, they can't shut it down and if they try, then that will make the news and get us even more public sympathy.

[Goldmund]

104. The equations are entirely different

As far as your Critical Mass rides, somewhere between 85 and 90 percent of Americans have never heard of them. In that equation, you get more publicity if you're forcibly stopped than you generate if you're not.

In this equation, being that the media is already there, the equation for Bushco is to shut it down and take a PR hit, as opposed to allowing it to stand and fester nightly all over the news.

[CAcyclist]

111. That's Not The Point

The point is whether the police can shut down large protests - they can't without endangering the people, which is not something they are going to want to do in the red-hot glare of the MSM.

As for the intent of Critical Mass, it is primarily a protest so that we can ride together in peace and not have to worry about cars - in that respect it is enormously effective because the motorists in SF know CM will happen the last friday of the month and so they don't drive into the city that night.

Our intent has never been to generate mass interest in the general public - the protest is both the means and the end. However, considerably more people that 10-15% know about Critical Mass because it has spread to all the major cities, the press has taken enormous interest and a few years ago it was very popular for all the major media outlets to carry a story about Critical Mass. You knew about CM without me having to explain it.

[CAcyclist]

99. Since When Do Any Of Us Care What Rush Thinks?

I hope he does get his panties in a twist.

Face it folks, if we are going to rid this country of Bush and his henchmen, we are going to go through fire - hopefully just verbal fire, maybe more. We will be the peaceful ones and prove that our side is the side the angels are on, but the other side will throw everything they have at us.

We better damn well hope Rush comes out swinging, because anything less means we simply aren't being effective.

Remember! First they ignore you, then they patronize you ,then they fight you, then you've won. It doesn't go backward - it only proceeds forward. If we are too weak or spineless to face a few verbal arrows from a drug-addled lout, maybe this country isn't going to be saved after all.

[Goldmund]

106. Of course I don't care what Rush thinks

I only used him as an example -- what I meant was that Buscho would be able to get away with it. Now, if you're talking about fundamental ideals -- whether we should support choice or gay marriage, or something -- then I'll argue that it doesn't matter at all what the public thinks.

But if you're doing a demonstration, a protest, an event -- its whole purpose is to affect the public opinion. An effective protest is one that affects public opinion in the way you want it to. What I'm saying is that 50,000 protesters in Crawford around Cindy would not do that.

[CAcyclist]

116. Again that's your opinion, not mine nt

[marions ghost]

84. true

they can't isolate her as a lone nutjob if more people are there.

My gut feeling is that people need to go to Crawford to support them. The group is going to get tired and need reinforcements. Whoever can't go to TX can do local actions and organize support for them. Now if Cindy and Co said they don't want people to come, that's different--but they're not saying that so far. Right now I think some supporters just need to get there and worry about numbers later.

My instincts say let people do what they naturally want to do...rather than trying to control it. Sometimes the horse just gets out of the barn. Under the repressive conditions we have experienced with recent protests it's not surprising at all that plenty of people appreciate Cindy's courage and want to join her.

It doesn't matter whatsoever whether we--supporters of Cindy--have lost a close friend or family member in this war ourselves. We have all lost in so many ways by this immoral war(and I don't think I need to write an essay to justify that statement, not around here hopefully). Cindy Sheehan puts a human face on the tragedy of the Iraq War. She is sticking her neck out for the rest of us.

[Pithlet]

56. I don't know. I see your point.

Having thousands show up might just turn this into yet another protest in the eyes of many. One woman standing her ground and getting arrested after losing her son is powerful. A protest breaking up with multiple arrests just won't resonate with people in quite the same way, I don't think. This is looking at it purely from a PR stance, however, so I don't know if it warrants everyone staying home. Showing this woman she has our support is vital, and I don't know if the damage done, if any, is worth avoiding just to leave this woman to face things alone.

[Goldmund]

58. I wouldn't worry about her

She has more ovum than most of us ever dream of having. She's making the stand of her life. She has elevated above the surface and she's invulnerable. This is one of those rare events when the right person is in the right place at the right time, and there's a lineup of events that lifts that person above the mortal frame. For the time being, we can't help her because she's above us. She doesn't need our help, just like she didn't need it when she decided to embark on this adventure.

That said, I think it's important that we show our support -- not for her personal benefit, but for the benefit of her (and our) cause -- and there are a million ways to do that other than going to Crawford.

[Pithlet]

63. I guess, for me, it would depend on what she would want

If she welcomes the company, then I say go for it. If she thinks the message would be better served by her alone, then I would respect that and stay away and ask that others do so, too. I don't think any of us can really make that call for her, even if it would help our cause to do so. I'd feel a little too much like I was exploiting her pain for our cause to against whatever she would wish.

[texanwitch]

70. You are so right.

:applause:

[CAcyclist]

119. She Does Need Our Help - She Wouldn't Have Asked For It Otherwise

She's not some mystical earth-mother figure with magic powers.

She's just a woman who needs help and support. She's asking for that support.

If you respect her so much, then respect her request for help and don't try to stand in her way.

Remember how we make fun of the freepers with their pathetic little protests that can only get a handful of people? Even the Schaivo case - there weren't really all that many people there.

Our side will likewise look kooky if Sheehan puts up a call for support and people instead decide she may be the leader of this protest but they don't want to follow her enough to actually do what she asks and come join her.

Imagine how Rush will spin *that*, if you are so concerned about what the rightwing thinks.

Public opinion and the right-wing are two separate things - we care about public opinion and the public hasn't changed in their ability to be impressed by large numbers of people. The media have awakened and they will cover this if people show up - they will likewise cover the lack of protesters if people don't show up.

[Goldmund]

158. Dude, I'm not concerned about what the right wing thinks

I think I've already explained that in a bunch of places, but it's up to you to read.

[CAcyclist]

121. Have You Ever Organized A Protest Before?

Have you studied the after-effects of a protest? How do you know, other than the whisper campaign that more people will somehow make this protest less effective? Don't you think it's a little weird?

Less is not more. More is more. Cindy Sheehan will have massive power if she can call up at a moments notice thousands of people. She will have no power if only 20 people show up.

She is asking the president a question. He thinks he can ignore her because she is just one person - just part of the lunatic fringe. He won't be able to keep thinking that if lots and lots of people show up, especially if lots of people show up with the full expectation that they may have to resist peacefully and may face arrest and jail.

[Goldmund]

169. Newsflash, dude:

Numbnuts has already ignored millions.

You don't think that they can call 50,000 a "lunatic fringe"???

If I didn't know better I'd think that you have never heard of all the mass protests that happened during *'s 1st term.

Many more than 50,000 people showed up. Many times. And remained a "lunatic fringe" in the minds of a majority, for a long, long time.

They know how to handle mass rallies. They've already poured millions of dollars into developing that propaganda. They don't know how to handle this one.

[Walt Starr]

62. I think it'd be a mistake not to go if you can

They're already throwing up test balloons on this being the Left exploiting a rieving mother. They know this is a PR disaster in the offing and they have no clue how to handle it.

All previous methodologies to stop people are not working with this gold Star Mother.

They're in a tizzy, and thousands of people just showing up expressing solidarity for this mother will be their undoing on this war.

[Goldmund]

66. Don't you think that...

...if thousands of people showed up in Crawford, they'd have an easier time spinning this as "the Left exploiting Cindy"? More importantly, they would have an easier time making up justifications to shut it down.

They're in a tizzy, and thousands of people just showing up expressing solidarity for this mother will be their undoing on this war.

I absolutely agree. But can't we do that by staging events in NYC, DC, LA, SF, etc?

[Walt Starr]

69. Nowhere near the effect

If people go down there and just show up with signs that say, "We support you, Cindy!" that's all that needs to be done.

We don't need a circus. We don't need people juggling or a Jesus Christ on a Trailer Hitch.

Just plain folks saying we support you Cindy.

Nothing more.

[merh]

88. The left exploiting Cindy - what is that the freeper meme?

At least Cindy Sheehan can stand on her own, can speak, can feed herself, can move around and can THINK for herself.
What the hell did the fundies do but exploit a brain dead woman OR have you forgotten about Schiavo? They have room to talk about exploitation.

Exploit Cindy my ass - how about join her as she takes a stand against the war. How about stand with her as she let's the world know that not every American citizen supports the illegal and immoral war.

Cindy is a patriot! :patriot:

The only exploitation here are those that are alleging the exploitation of Cindy by distorting her cause, by making her out to be a weak woman who has no idea as to what she is doing and by trying to say that anyone that joins her is exploiting her.

[Goldmund]

160. I'm not sure if you're responding to me

...since what you're saying has little to do with what I wrote.

I didn't say that the left WOULD be exploiting Cindy, I said that it would be easy to spin it that way if a bunch of people showed up.

And before you launch into "who cares how they spin it" -- it's a public demonstration whose sole purpose is to affect the public opinion, so this is one of the rare instances where it matters how much spin fodder we give them.

[merh]

163. Whatever.

You seem confused about exploitation. Exploitation is what was done to Terry Schiavo and the fundies and repukes can never make up for that or - exploitation is not people going to Crawford to help Cindy.

I just find it odd that you would want to try to discourage folks from accepting the invitations to join her or the cries for assistance that come from Camp Casey. :shrug:

[Goldmund]

164. I DID NOT SAY IT WAS EXPLOITATION.

Got it?

I AM NOT SAYING IT WOULD BE AN EXPLOITATION.

I am saying that it would be SPUN as such. Dig?

SPUN.

"I just find it odd that you would want to try to discourage folks from accepting the invitations to join her or the cries for assistance that come from Camp Casey."

It's not that odd considering the check KKKarl just wrote me.

[merh]

165. Guess what - it will be spun no matter WHAT!

So get over your "protection" and worries about how it is "spun" and prepare to do your own spinning on her behalf. Have the answers to the spin - learn to spin back.

Worrying about spin is not a legitimate reason to not support Cindy Sheehan and the folks at Camp Sheehan.

[Goldmund]

167. I agree

And that's why I do support them, and I encourage others to support them. People are ordering food, writing LTTEs, and as I suggested, I think it would be cool to stage mass events in other places in support of Cindy.

I'm not going to get over how it's "spun" because the only purpose of a public protest is to affect the public opinion. This story, the way it is now -- raw and personal, the greiving mother against the chickenhawk -- is a unique story they don't know how to spin. And that's why it's been so effective. Turn it into yet another anti-war rally, and you've given them a subject which they've already defined in the public's consciousness. They have no clue what to do with this one.

[merh]

168. Then spin back -

Recognize how "they" will try to spin it and be ready to spin it back. Go back and read your original post, it was an attempt to discourage. Glad to know you are now encouraging folks.

[Goldmund]

170. Are we reading the same OP?

I'm still saying the same thing: don't go to Crawford, do other things.

Yes, it would be great if my "spin" on anything mattered, you know. Or yours, for that matter. Where have you been in the last 5 years? For once, we have the momentum, finally. Let's not spoil it.

[merh]

172. I thought you were encouraging folks - DON'T go to Crawford

is not encouraging folks - it is discouraging folks and your views of spin seem a little confused. Give those at Crawford the talking points, give the folks reporting on Camp Casey the talking points. Don't make this about one distraught mother, make this about Americans that are sick of the illegal and immoral war and the needless death.

Control the spin - but before you can control it, you have to have a story - the more the merrier and the more the less likely the story can be ignored.

And guess what, I have been doing a whole hell of a lot, I don't answer to you and never will. Don't challenge what I have done, look in the mirror and appreciate that you are DISCOURAGING an effort and for no good reason. To discourage one anti-war movement because they didn't ask for your advice or heed your "sage" warnings is to discourage the anti-war movement, imho.

[Goldmund]

174. You know what really makes me roll my eyes?

This kind of quasi-Bushlike "with us or against us" rhetoric. I think one thing about what would be productive in this particular situation, you think another -- and all of a sudden, I'm "discouraging the anti-war movement". What fucking bullshit.

"Don't make this about one distraught mother, make this about Americans that are sick of the illegal and immoral war and the needless death."

Apply some analytical thinking to what you're saying. How many times did we have protests before, with up to a million people showing up, that were "about Americans that are sick of the illegal and immoral war and the needless death"? Now take this story. One distraught mother. Personal tragedy, that gives a personal face to those Americans "sick of the needless death". I'm not saying that there shouldn't be OTHER stories, but that THIS story has been so succesfule PRECISELY BECAUSE it's about ONE distraught mother facing the President. Let's not suffocate this story by turning it into an anti-war rally. Let's make another story, a new one, of an anti-war rally. A related story, maybe, but this story is so powerful BECAUSE IT IS THE WAY IT IS. DON'T CHANGE IT.

"And guess what, I have been doing a whole hell of a lot, I don't answer to you and never will. Don't challenge what I have done"

I have no idea where you're pulling this out of, so I'll ignore it. I never asked you or anybody else to answer to me, nor did I challege what you have done -- since I don't know anything about what you have done. I've no idea what you're saying.

[merh]

180. Right now it is "us" against "them"

Recognizing that will help deal with the "SPIN" - closing your eyes to it makes us vulnerable to the "spin". Where have you been for the last five years?

Don't pull that analytical crap - you are trying to discourage folks from joining Cindy at Camp Casey - that is an effort to discourage a movement. Would you have told MLKjr not to go to Birmingham?

[Goldmund]

183. No, I wouldn't have

I also wouldn't pee in the sink.

Or, encourage people to drink Draino.

Let's see.... I wouldnt'... Eat poo? Hit my head with computer speakers? ... Swallow a nail?

There's lots of things I wouldn't do.

These kinds of blanket generalizations are worthless.

[merh]

191. I think you are confused - but that's okay.

In honor of your dislike about generalization let's make it "right" against "wrong" -- they, the bastards that support this war, including the thugs in charge of our admin, are "WRONG" -- those fighting to get the truth out to the public, the truth that has been buried and ignored by the folks that are "WRONG" are the "RIGHT" folks and I stand with them.

Maybe sticking around DU you will learn some things.

And I am sure that folks fighting against the facist governments of the past had some sitting on the side telling them "don't generalize, don't make it 'us' against 'them'".

[Goldmund]

193. And you say I'm confused???

:rofl:

The "us" and "them" I spoke of is "us who support going to Crawford" vs. "them who don't support going to Crawford" -- not "us who oppose the war" vs. "them who support the war".

It would be nice if people had more control over their Pavlovian instincts and actually read what they were responding to.

[merh]

196. You have yet to give a good reason why you have tried to

discourage folks from going to Crawford. Again I ask, would you have tried to discourage MLKjr from going to Birmingham? Who makes you the judge of what is right or wrong relative to other peoples commitments to the anti-war movement? That you try discourage folks from getting involved makes your efforts suspect, especially when your fear of the "spin" is just spin and repeating the funding meme about exploitation.

:shrug:

[Goldmund]

204. Then alert on me if you're suspicious.

I already addressed every other question you have.

I think it would be counter-productive, and destroy the story.

You think it would be effective.

Instead of discussing pros and cons, you've reduced this discussion into an idiotic pissing match about my right to be as brazen as to disagree with DU's current dychotomy du jour.

[merh]

209. Actually, the most ironic thing about your thread is your baseless

argument and your effort to stop people from going to Crawford has probably encouraged some who would not have gone otherwise to join the folks at Camp Casey.

Why is it that a debate becomes a pissing match when some folks can't give legitimate reasons for their positions?

:patriot:

[Goldmund]

212. Huh?

I've been doing nothing but justifying my positions.

Adress those arguments or get out of the kitchen.

"your effort to stop people from going to Crawford has probably encouraged some who would not have gone otherwise to join the folks at Camp Casey."

Great. My aim wasn't to influence people one way or another, but simply to start a lively discussion.

It's really an abstract discussion and a moot point -- since we all know that most of you who are so vocal about going there won't go because of "other commitments", or anal cysts, or whatever.

[merh]

213. My, my you aren't judgmental, no, not in the least!

:sarcasm:

"It's really an abstract discussion and a moot point -- since we all know that most of you who are so vocal about going there won't go because of "other commitments", or anal cysts, or whatever.

That response is totally contrary to your comments in an earlier thread, but heck, confusion does happen, doesn't it.

You have not answered any of the legitimate questions that have been put to you nor have you given an adequate explanation as to why you are repeating the fundie meme about the lady being "exploited". You have given garbage about SPIN, but you have failed to show how that "SPIN" is being used by anyone but the likes of sludge.

And just a simple observation, your aim was to influence people, to try to stop folks from going to Crawford. That is why your post is entitled "DON'T GO TO CRAWFORD" and not "The pros and cons of going to Crawford".

Have a great day! :hi:

:patriot:

[Goldmund]

217. The wording of the OP

was meant to start a discussion. I have no illusions about what my influence on the world is and that a post of mine on DU would make the numbers of people who show up in Crawford significantly different.

"That response is totally contrary to your comments in an earlier thread, but heck, confusion does happen, doesn't it."

I have no idea what "earlier thread" you're talking about.

Even if a lot of people DO show up in Crawford, which I obvously hope doesn't happen, it will be a tiny minority compared to all those who are vocal about hoping this DOES happen. That's a simple fact. So if you take that into consideration, any influence a post on DU could possibly have is infitesimal.

"You have not answered any of the legitimate questions that have been put to you nor have you given an adequate explanation as to why you are repeating the fundie meme about the lady being "exploited"."

I see you're a proud graduate of the Sean Hannity School of Debate: ignrore points that your opponent has made, and revert to your original position/accusation.

Read the OP, and the rest of the posts in this thread. The fact you are here again repeating the "exploitation" crap only proves that you either didn't read or didn't understand at least 3 other posts on that very topic that I've made: I don't think anybody would be exploiting Cindy. I think they would be able to propagandistically wrap it as exploitation, and thus diffuse its effect, which it is HAVING NOW.

[merh]

220. Nope - the fact that I have read the OP and all of your posts

and still have not found sufficient justification for your efforts to try to discourage folks from accepting the invite to join Mrs. Sheehan at Camp Casey nor any explanation outside of the "SPIN" spin, just reinforces my concerns about your motives. And, may I point out, others seem to share my concerns.

And speaking of the Sean Hannity School of Debate, when are you going to answer the legitimate questions asked of you and stop stooping to weak attempts to insult?

[Goldmund]

221. Me? Insulting?

This is bizarro world.

I've answered every question that was asked.

But alright, I have some time on my hands.

Give me a question. I'll answer it... again.

[merh]

223. I'll use your line - go back and read.

n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

71. I'm leaving in the morning, and I plan to do whatever needs to be done

If staying in town and using a copier to help with distributing literature, if helping greet new arrivals and direct traffic or if fetching and carrying is what's needed, I'll do it.

I don't have to be right there on the front lines, but I do need to be there.

MKJ

[BeTheChange]

72. Nathan at the Iconoclast said something great yesterday..

he said that the power of Cindy was different then what happened in the 70s.. then it was young people.. now it is Families. It's mothers and grandmothers.. sisters, brothers. You cant stop that.

It's all Cindy's vision, ya know.. she said she wanted people.. maybe it would be good to rethink that. Maybe the message should be that mothers all over the US that have lost children in the war should go to their city hall, or military gates.. or whatever and protest in solidarity..

Then Cindy can funnel the news of these other protests through the media there...

[democrat_patriot]

65. Go to Crawford - leave Cindy alone.

Stage protest in town. They cannot arrest one mother standing alone. It would be political suicied.

Send supplies.

[Buns_of_Fire]

73. These things take on a life of their own

I tend to agree with you that Cindy is making a powerful statement all by herself. But people ARE going to show up to support her, and it won't take many to overwhelm Crawdad (population 705, as of the 2000 Census).

I'm really conflicted about this. I wouldn't want to step on Cindy's show (and it IS her show, however many different agendas will wind up attached to it), but the idea of hounding that spineless good-for-nothing pile of offal out of his pig farm and back to the safety of Washington (or Kennebunkport) is awfully tempting.

[Guaranteed]

76. I see your point but a show of power is more important, I think.

Without many people there she looks like she doesn't have much support- people aren't interested. That's not the impression that we want to give.

The people that do go there need to be extremely careful, though. No screaming at police or unruly behavior, whatsoever. This is very, very important, and we need to have our best faces on.

You're meeting the Queen of England. Except it's the Chimp in the White House.

[Vinca]

77. In this case, I think a large number of people - thousands -

along the roads of Crawford would make a HUGE statement. The Turdblossom machine is already trying to smear Cindy, but they can't go after 10, 20 or 30,000. The more the merrier. I wish I lived closer.

[lonestarnot]

78. The more I see of this thread, the more I know it is wrong to

try and keep people away from Crawford!

[Beaverhausen]

79. Public opinion is on her side. Look at *'s poll numbers- they suck

I disagree. I think whoever can go there should go.

We NEED more protests now. It is the only way to stop the BFEE.

[G_j]

80. if Cindy really has asked people to join her, why on earth

would anyone bother second guessing her and telling people not to go? :shrug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

108. I don't get it either. She wants people & knows about strength in numbers.

[B Calm]

81. After reading this thread, if I lived close to Texas I would be

joining Cindy.

[skygazer]

82. I do see your point

However, as I understand it, she has asked for people to come. You may think she was "imagining 20 or 50 people joining her, not 20 or 50 thousand" but I think in saying that, you're underestimating her intelligence and her awareness of what her stand has accomplished thus far. I think it's likely that she knows darn well what to expect.

I also think - know - that there is power in sheer numbers. It's easy to shut down a small protest, or to see to it that it gets little coverage, or to gloss over its import by saying, "well, it was only a few fringe lunatics." It's less easy to shut down a large one without force. And force is not going to look good when used against grieving mothers and middle-aged people.

Regardless of whether the right-wing loonies play it as the left "taking advantage" of Cindy's grief or whatever, when people see a large and determined group of people (and as one poster pointed out, not just young people but parents, and families), that sends a powerful message. When 50,000 people gather in one place, that's news.

[flyarm]

83. bullhockey! i think its time for people to stand with iraqi vets parents

and yell loud and clear..we are here and we will not sit quiet another moment!!

we were lied to , they were lied to and their children died for these fucking lies...

its about time we stand tall with the parents of kids dying in iraq..
the only thing that stopped vietnam was information , truth, and standing up en mass!

it will take the masses to stop * and this sick neo con cabal!

and to keep them from moving on to syria and iran!

[RetroLounge]

85. You don't want to go, then don't go...

If I could be there, I would be there now.

But I think part of your post is right on: "I think staging mass events at other places, in support of her, would be productive"

Why can't there be both?

RL

[stepnw1f]

86. GO TO CRAWFORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And send DU's blessings..... She needs all the support. And yes... this thing could very well mean the end of the war/wars!!!!

[Carolab]

89. SHE ASKED FOR LOTS OF FRIENDS DOWN THERE.

Why second guess what SHE ASKED FOR???

It's her show. GIVE HER WHAT SHE WANTS!

(P.S. She ALSO asked for other rallies in other cities to show solidarity....SO DO BOTH!!!)

[gulliver]

94. I agree. Maybe some more Gold Star families, but ...

... no one else should go. The whole reason she is getting attention is that she is qualified. The message is clear. The subject is clear. Let's not change the subject for Bush.

[Goldmund]

97. I agree 110%

[ScreamingMeemie]

100. I think those who can should...Not much focus has been given to the

overwhelming number of people on both sides of the fence who support the troops but are sick of being lied to. She's got the media attention...now show them just how many people support her. It might just swing a few wobblers out there.

I've got to disagree with you Goldmund. Where ever there's a camera, and one cannot presume to know what Cindy "meant" when she asked others to join her. :hi:

[Spazito]

102. Cindy was just on AAR and asked people to come down

It seems to me that if she is asking for that there would be no reason not to go.

[Synnical]

103. I heard that, too

She said donate to Gold Star Families for Peace or the Crawford Peace House, or best, come down and join her.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[bananas]

110. Yes its on her website too

She mentioned her new website MeetWithCindy.org
and it right there it says "Come to Crawford"
It even has directions to get there.

"Come to Crawford
We need your support. There is power in numbers. Join us in Crawford now!
Crawford Peace House
Directions to get here."

[Synnical]

109. On the lighter side, C-TV

It just struck me that someone searching for news on the model Cindy Crawford would get plenty of links right now to Cindy Sheehan in Crawford, rather than the model Crawford.

Remember those commercials Dennis Leary did about C-TV? Someone should put together a parody about Cindy in Crawford . . . "I want C-TV all the time . . . "

Just a thought . .

;-)

[Diamonique]

124. My $.02

I might understand the reasoning behind not having a planned protest with thousands of people showing up in Crawford.

But this is different. This isn't planned, it's not organized, it isn't even a war protest.

This is one woman who did this on the spur of the moment to get answers to why her son is dead. 50 - 70 people showed up with her.. to support her, not to boost their own agenda. As it gets hotter and hotter in the mansion on the chicken ranch, more people will arrive in Crawford... a few today.. a few more tomorrow... small groups. A carload here, a busload there. It's growing... and it's getting hotter in the mansion. All these people have rearranged their lives in support of Cindy in her quest for answers.

This grass roots, unplanned, unorganized, spur-of-the-moment thing is better than a war protest. Cindy didn't plan to do this. And for a lot of people to rearrange their lives, finances, etc. at the last minute to support her would send a HUGE message to BushCo.

We need to be there if we can. Stand by Cindy in her quest for answers.

[Odonata]

186. Unfortunately, I don't think Cindy will remain the focus

if bus loads upon bus loads start showing up to Crawford. Groups with their own agendas will form -- it's inevitable. I agree, "this grass roots, unplanned, unorganized, spur-of-the-moment thing is better than a war protest." Let's keep it that.

Goldmund's right. There are much more productive ways to show our support for Cindy.

[kohodog]

114. If she is arrested, Crawford would be a better place than DC

If people go while Bush is on vacation.

If she is not arrested it is her time to make a statement.

[Arkana]

117. Tough decision. I guess I'm able to see the pros and cons of both sides--

If she only has a few people joining her, then Bush and his media henchmen will look ridiculous claiming that her presence is a threat to national security, but they'll just say that she's one of a few nutjobs.

If 50,000 or so converge on Dumbyass's pig farm, then the "national security" claim might gain a bit more credence, but there would be no accusations of the "lone nutjob". Personally, I'd go with this option.

Get as many people to Crawford as possible--but keep it orderly at all costs.

[ck4829]

118. Invade Crawford!

The Western White House must fall!

[pitohui]

120. say what

she asked people to come out, what a statement of support and remembrance for her son if thousands of people turn out

[wovenpaint]

126. I think she's well aware of potential numbers of people

joining her. I disagree that it's a bad idea. I believe that there's strength in numbers right now. If the chicken hawks at the pig farm are announcing arrests for Thursday- I say that they'll be trying to "wrap this up" by tomorrow. They are famous for diversion. So the more, the merrier!

I agree that it's personal for her, but Cindy has asked for more supporters to stand with her. I don't know about you, but I've got draft age children, so when I see another mother - whose child has been sacrificed for these bullshit lies, that wants to make a difference, to give some gleam of meaning to her son's death, to receive some sort of acknowledgement...well, you know, I'm starting to take this real personal myself. She is all of us, suffering the worst that can happen and making a stand. My heart and prayers go out to Cindy Sheehan and to all that are answering her request and going there-I wish I could get there.

[kitkat65]

127. You can all have your way, actually.

How many people can realistically make it there before the Thursday deadline?

Not many. So if they do arrest Cindy (a real possibility) march to that pig farm (how appropriate) and take over the vigil in her honor. Make that MoFo realize that he can arrest as many dissenters as he likes, there's just going to be more to take their place.

THEN, it becomes a movement bigger than Cindy . . . and, poetically, one that he could have easily prevented but for his cowardice and indifference.

[uppityperson]

130. Thursday deadline in a rumor so far.

according to her lawyer who posted earlier tonight. The rumor about her being arrested thursday is a rumor.

[Amonester]

128. Wish Lila Lipscomb (Fahrenheit 911) joins Cindy Sheehan. (N/T)

[Goldmund]

149. I do too -- that would be cool.

[kick_them_hard]

131. Tell that to the Shiavo protesters

and the Shiavo case would'nt have been such a circus. If they can do it, we can do it. If Miss Cindy is asking for more support why the hell dont we give it to her? Texas Dems, where are you?????? Are ya there yet?? Who's going there? Who's taking documentation, photos, ect? God bless that mom!! Her son must be looking down on her and smiling big time. Nudge nudge. Get going peoples, even if ya cant stay the day, stay for a few hours to support her.

[ElaineinIN]

159. I think the Shiavo protesters hurt their cause

Personally, I think the Shiavo protestors are not good role models. They looked like wacko extremists (which of course, they are...) but my understanding is that most of the public was really turned off by that circus.

I tend to agree with Goldmund.... think about how powerful the image of one person standing in front of a tank in Tienamen (sp?) square was, and if it would have been equally as powerful with a group.

Not only that, but you give the police the "safety and access" excuse they are looking for to close her down.

Now a nice big rally in Crawford itself is another thing....

[marions ghost]

218. that guy in front of the tank in China...

had THOUSANDS of people backing him up.

Let's not let fleeting images captured by cameras persuade so easily. That picture of the Saddam statue being pulled down looked pretty good on replay (after replay after replay) too.

The police are already using the safety and access argument. The folks down there have to deal with that now.

[Greyhound]

132. Who are you, and what makes you an authority on what's best for Cindy's...

cause? Please explain why fewer people makes this a better story.
Confused behind enemy lines

[DistressedAmerican]

133. Thank You! Exactly My Thinking. They Are There On The Ground.

They know exactly how much support exists out there ans they have asked us to come.

This thread may be well intentioned. But, you are armchair quarterbacking at best.

Let them tell us what they need and we'll get it to them. Right now what they need are people. I for one am making plans to join them!

[Swamp Rat]

134. yep

:hi: You really going to Crawford?

[DistressedAmerican]

142. Making Arrangements. Think Distressed Sis And I Are Flying Down

Either this weekend or next if George has not come out of his hole!

[Goldmund]

150. I already did explain it, if you read the OP.

[travisbailey]

136. "Come and join us and let your voices be joined with ours."

I quote Cindy:

"Come and join us and let your voices be joined with ours."

Tuesday, August 9th, 2005
"Security Threat"
http://michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php

Cindy herself is saying to come join us--I am going on Wednesday.

Goldmund (who posted this message) can sit on his ass and do nothing.

[Goldmund]

153. Did I suggest doing nothing?

Can you read?

[Odonata]

205. I'm really concerned.

I get the feeling that many people are just reacting to what Goldmund's saying without really reading and thinking about it. Sure Goldmund's thoughts might come across as a little dissonant at first, and sure, I bet that's not an accident, but step outside the box for a second.

I find it hard to believe that such responses aren't anything but a result of mob mentality - which, in itself, is a VERY good argument against having everybody and everybody's grandmother going to Crawford, but to look for other creative ways to support and keep the focus on Cindy.

Now, I know I've got a low post count, and I'm swimming with some sharks here. However, I think this is an important observation.

[donheld]

137. I think the OP has been properly spanked

Now everybody off their duffs and lets get busy.

[Goldmund]

151. I guess the good thing is...

...that 99% of people who are so adamant about going there won't actually go.

[mogster]

138. Surprise, surprise

Coming out, are we? ;-) :rofl:

[Goldmund]

148. What?

[Goldmund]

179. So, do you have the balls to make some sort of an accusation,

or are you going to stand there and chuckle and point fingers like KFC?

[ObaMania]

139. Sorry, 20 - 50 does not get the point across.

Although the pics are great from Camp Casey, they pretty much shoe a few disgruntled 'muricans that can easily be played off that way by the M$M. Now, if there were 20-50K, that would definitely send a message.

Sure Cindy could get arrested and all, but what would that accomplish? Nada. After a few days the story would be swept under the rug.

Now how 'bout them events in Aruba? ;)

[Goldmund]

152. It doesn't?

She's getting more coverage than we ever did with 500,000 in NYC.

[rman]

166. ok so 10,000 people there would get less coverage

then the couple of dozen there are now?

[Goldmund]

171. Maybe

It isn't just about the quantity of coverage, but also what kind of a story is being covered. A Greek drama, as it is now, or yet another lefty gathering? If the latter, they know very well how to deal with it propagandistically. If the former, they're stumped.

Another poster in this thread made a great point: what's the most memorable image of Tienanmen Square? Remember?

Well, this seems the most memorable image yet of the anti-war movement. Let's not eclipse it.

[rman]

178. The Tienanmen Square thing would not have happened if

that guy had been the only one demonstrating. yes he was the only one it that particular location, but the square was full of people, many thousands of them. Without them the confrontation with the tanks would never have happened.

More people there would not make it "yet another lefty gathering" - it would make it one mother + supporters, except there'd be more supporters.

It took a couple of 10,000 Venezuelans, literally "at the palace gates", to get their president back (see coup against Chavez). If there'd been significantly less people there because they "didn't want to eclipse the image" or some such, they'd be living under a corporatist dictatorship now.

Demonstration and activism is not a solitary or deeply personal affair.

[Goldmund]

181. True

But, Cindy would not have happened (as the story that it is) if 60% of country weren't against the war at the same time. So, the country is full of people, millions of them, who are at this moment represented by Cindy.

Yes, 10,000 Venezuelans. You don't need to tell me anything like that because, as I've said many times, I've participated in all large protests I could get my hands on.

But this story is not one of a mass protest. I don't discourage mass protests. I only discourage making this story into a mass protest.

It's not so black and white, no matter what Bush says.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

188. You really are on point.......

I don't get why people want to take a unique event like this and turn it into every other large protest that get zero attention from the MSM. I know Cindy may be calling for people to join her, but she's not a media or political expert either. She doesn't realize how just her face and voice will be strong enough to shatter the general perception of the anti-war/anti-Bush crowd.

As I said before, when she gets arrested, then we take to the streets of Crawford.

[Goldmund]

189. "As I said before, when she gets arrested, then we take to the streets of

Crawford"

Exactly.

[marions ghost]

214. Arrests may happen

judging by the general belligerence of the opposition and the presence of lawyers on Cindy's side. It's a time-honored American tradition--if you don't like what somebody is saying you either stonewall them forever or find a way to lock them up or intimidate. It's not realistic to expect any other scenario...that would be too creative. Diplomacy is obviously not in their repertoire. I think you can bank on some strongarm techniques.

I hate to see all this emphasis on "general perceptions" or what "story" should take priority. This is a fearful, downtrodden mentality. We need to be stronger than that. Counter the spin. To a certain extent we should let people do what they WANT to do, what they feel, and trust them. Let them respond to Cindy's call for reinforcements without casting doubts on how they will affect the outcome. People are afraid to act enough as it is.

Cautions to "be polite" and keep focused on the issue at hand down there are appropriate, but the blanket directive "Don't Go to Crawford" is misguided IMO.

[klyon]

141. good points

thanks for posting
KL

[rman]

144. Two points, both bad;

"1) She's already getting more MSM coverage than we ever did with mass rallies in big cities. The kind of an event that she is staging is inherently deeply personal, and large numbers would dillute its strength, not increase it;"

Given that Cindy has asked for more people to join her, the "inherently deeply personal" argument does not hold.


"2) The claim that Cindy is a threat to national security -- the pretext they will use if they arrest her -- is grotesque on its face. It won't be nearly as grotesque if there are tens of thousands of protesters near the Bush pig farm."

This argument is so backwards, i hardly know where to begin. Having more people there does not make Cindy more of threat to national security then she already is (which is: not at all). Having more people there will give more media attention to the grotesqueness of the arrest, making it less likely that she will be arrested. And even if she would be arrested, then there'd still be A LOT of people there, who could very well just stay there even when Cindy is arrested, thus making it practically pointless to arrest Cindy.
Imagine thousands of people being there; what could * do about it? Arrest all of them? Shoot them? In front of cameras from the mainstream media? Having that many people there is the last thing Bush wants, which in itself is plenty of reason to go there.

[Goldmund]

157. Huh?

1) Given that Cindy has asked for more people to join her, the "inherently deeply personal" argument does not hold.

How does it not hold? Cindy isn't the one who is making this into a big story; the media are, and the fact people are eating it up is. Right now, this is a Greek drama: a lone mother against the President who sent her son to death. A personal story, like the Runaway Bride or Laci or Natalee. But also a story about the war, and a mother who became, for the time being, the voice of an anti-war movement that has struggled to get a public voice. Get a large crowd and signs and chants around her, and poof! -- all that disappears.

2) "This argument is so backwards, i hardly know where to begin. Having more people there does not make Cindy more of threat to national security then she already"

Yeah. Backwards alright. Of course it doesn't make her more of a threat. But it does provide more cover for those who would break it up. As is obvious, so I won't linger on this point.

"Having more people there will give more media attention to the grotesqueness of the arrest, making it less likely that she will be arrested"

What???? This is absurd.

"Imagine thousands of people being there; what could * do about it? Arrest all of them?"

I don't know. First he would try to marginalize it and demonize it, as yet another rowdy gathering of the "michel moore-left", and Cindy would become secondary in this new media circus. Once they've done and demonized it, it almost doesn't matter what they do.

But my hunch is that they wouldn't allow thousands of people to show up. If people started showing up, the show would be over.

[Karenina]

175. Naaa Duuuu, mit Männliche Besserwisserei

Those who have lost loved ones in the atrocity the American *gubmint has perpetuated upon the globe are on their way to support Mrs. Sheehan.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1687928

I pray that the next time YOU need help, no one will be screaming, "NO! Don't stand by him!!!"

[Goldmund]

176. Oh, but I think that's great

MILITARY FAMILIES going to support her is great.

It keeps the story what it is.

A mob of people against Bush, on the other hand, would fundamentally alter the story.

[KyndCulture]

182. Listen, I too have been in contact with them. YES THEY WANT PEOPLE

the point is WHO is going to stop thousands of people.

Stop defending your side here, you are wrong. Cindy and John from the Peace House have BOTH said they want thousands of people. You are nobody to be telling people not to go.

I spoke to John my self about 2 hours ago... so cut this conversation please it is really pissing me off for one thing and for another thing you are detracting from the good work that is being done on DU today to help with this completely argumentative thread.

[Goldmund]

184. You tell me to shut up

I'll tell you to fuck off, and so it goes.

[KyndCulture]

one of us is helping and one of us isn't... figure it out.

[Goldmund]

203. One of us is helping and the other undermining a great opportunity

Figure it out.

From my perspective, that's what it looks like... You do realize that, don't you?

[G_j]

216. are you an activist?

or have you been one for long?
I have never known activism to work well when the people on the ground are undermined and second guessed by others who are not even there.

They have requested people to join them.
Can you imagine MLK asking for a certain kind of support while supposed supporters attempted to convince others to do something else?

[Goldmund]

219. Yes

The MLK analogy is flawed in a million ways. I don't know why people keep acting as if I discourage protests... I don't. I've gone to all protests I could possibly have gone to. I even got shot with a rubber bullet at a protest. So spare me.

This event is spontaneously unfolding. It hasn't taken its definite shape yet. I'm following the first rule of activism: don't be afraid of being in the minority when opining, lest you want the group you're in to turn into another ineffective, lazy, inert monolithic entity.

[no_to_war_economy]

143. your wrong

EVERYBODY who can should go there

[Goldmund]

156. Okay

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

173. I agree........

Let the American people relate to that one mother, who just wants answers from the president. Yeah, I know I sound like a Clinton political strategy guy here, but when you start having every special interest group under the sun decide they are going to jump in to get their face time, the message will be lost, and the American people will change the channel thinking "Oh great, look at the hippies and wackos at it again.". Flame me all you want, but you KNOW this is what happens. I swear to God, if I see people with the usual anti-G8 and WTO signs or pictures of Mumia on placards, I'm gonna scream........

This woman started this as a personal crusade for the benefit of America. Let her make her case without being drowned out. If she gets arrested, then unleash the masses.

[troubleinwinter]

177. From on the ground in Crawford... HELL YES Cindy wants people!

G_j (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-08-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. TexasLady. a question

Could you clarify something? (in light of another thread here telling ppl not to go to Crawford)

Does Cindy hope that everyone who can, will join her in Crawford? I know that she asked for people to come on Saturday. Are they hoping for more people to come in support as the week goes on?



TexasLady (849 posts) Mon Aug-08-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. In a word? ok two words..
HELL YES!!!!!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4289110#4289499

[DistressedAmerican]

185. SHE IS STILL REQUESTING PEOPLE COME!!! WHY DO YOU PERSIST???

Why do you think that you know the dynamics of the situation better than those involved on the ground?

I sort of understood where you were going with this yesterday. But, it is quite clear at this point that THEY disagree with you.

This whole thread is based on your assertions that they do not know what they are asking. They know full well what they are asking.

They seem to be doing a find job to me. They can run their own protest with out people like undercutting their efforts.

Who are you to act like you know better than they?

Please stop WORKING AGAINST these people.

Please stop perpetuating this counter-productive dis-information!!!

[Goldmund]

187. Dis-information?

Where is the dis-information?

I stated my opinion, and nowhere in this thread am I saying that it is anything but an opinion. I'm not claiming to know anything I don't know.

I am simply arguing for my point of view, as are you.

[DistressedAmerican]

190. Counter-Productive Ego Driven Defense Of Opinions That Work AGAINST

the goals that the people at the protest have set.

Just stop.

You are wrong. They want people there. They are on the ground and they know what they are asking.

Now give this counter-productive ego trip a rest.

Get out of the way of people that are doing the work.

If Cindy were here, she'd tell you to stop undercutting her efforts.

I assume your persistence given that information does make this Dis-Information...

[Goldmund]

192. I've addressed Cindy's invitation many times in this thread

Stop telling me to stop.

If you think that what I'm saying makes no sense or is wrong, feel free to discuss it and adress it and refute it.

But spare me the herd behavior and these idiotic little "you're undercutting our efforts" statements.

It's a discussion board. Fucking discuss.

[DistressedAmerican]

194. I See No Need To Debate Whether People Should Join An Effort That Asked

people to join it.

Clearly the fact that everyone in the "herd" has been telling you why you are wrong for a full day now would have changed your mind if there was ANY FELEXIBILITY on your part at all. Since it has not, I am simply asking you to give it a rest.

You are not looking for debate, you are either just so locked into how right you are and how wrong the rest of the world is or you are just trying to make trouble.

I think you have made your misguided opinion clear enough by now.

I ask you AGAIN, WHY DO YOU THINK YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THOSE INVOLVED ON THE GROUND?

[Goldmund]

201. I don't think I "know" anything

I have an opinion on what would have a greater effect, and that's the opinion that is discussed in this thread. And it may differ with Cindy's. I respect her opinion, which doesn't make me not want to express my own.

"Clearly the fact that everyone in the "herd" has been telling you why you are wrong for a full day now would have changed your mind if there was ANY FELEXIBILITY on your part at all"

:rofl: OK dude.

I heard lots of that in October 2001, when I was one of the "ten-percenters".

And you know, I'm tired of arguing for a right to speak. If you want to discuss the issue, great. If not, I need no permission from you nor anyone else to express an opinion.

[DistressedAmerican]

206. You Are A Complete Waste Of Time And A COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE FORCE

I suspect you like it that way...

":rofl: OK dude." is the response of someone with nothing of value to add. Given that, I'll ask you one more time to give it a rest.

Do not expect to hear back from me. I have no interest in further kicking this thread...

[Goldmund]

208. Great

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

198. Oh You Herd Joiner You!

Love ya.

[KyndCulture]

200. Hehehe well I hate to miss a good pile on....

[KyndCulture]

199. No you are stirring a hornets nest with this thread

and you are wrong. You are spreading disinformation in an effort to prove you are right. That's all I see.

You've been told by more than 10 people what Cindy wants, yet you persist.

It's a much wiser person than can admit they are wrong....

[Goldmund]

202. What's the "dis-information"?

[BelgianMadCow]

195. I agree with the OP that a single woman confronting the BFEE

is like a greek tragedy, which makes the story appealing.

But I also think that in a nation cowered by fear, in which the silent majority is actually DISTRUSTING their president and his war rationale, in which media are so biased that hardly anyone knows they are not alone in how they feel about it, this woman has somehow forced an opening in the media, struck a nerve with the people, and presents all the unchanneled energy a positive way out.

You should all be behind Cindy.
Figuratively, as DU illustrates. And literally too.

Just not at her side. I think the General should lead the charge. Her rallying cry has sounded.

A massive outpooring of people who are "touched" by this war will not diminish the fact that Cindy started it, she can remain the centerpiece.

The numbers will show she is not an isolated case.

[DistressedAmerican]

207. PLEASE EVERYONE JUST STOP FEEDING THIS BEAST. DO NOT REPLY!

Just let Goldmund sit in his counter-productive sandbox and play all alone...

[Goldmund]

210. .

:rofl:

[unblock]

222. Locking

This is no longer (if it ever was) a productive thread.

Unblock,
DU Moderator

[G_j]

224. and a quick THANK YOU!!!!!

[mtnester]

225. Finally...thanks

[unblock]

226. Locking

This is no longer (if it ever was) a productive thread.

Unblock,
DU Moderator