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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:48 PM
Original message
35 million Americans living in poverty but illegal immigration ok
In 2004 according to the census bureau 35 MILLION Americans are living in poverty that includes hispanics here legally.

Bushco is exempting the rich from paying their fair share of taxes not to mention corporations shrinking the middle class and in effect trying to destroy it altogether.

Good jobs are being shipped overseas turning us into to one big fucking service economy and illegal aliens are streaming virtually unchecked across the border underbidding Americans for those remaining jobs.


Posted Fri July 23 2004 10:47 AM
Original article: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/23/opinion/23herb.html?hp



Who's Getting the New Jobs?
By BOB HERBERT
Op-Ed Columnist
New York Times July 23, 2004

"A startling new study shows that all of the growth in the employed population in the United States over the past few years can be attributed to recently arrived immigrants.

The study found that from the beginning of 2001 through the first four months of 2004, the number of new immigrants who found work in the U.S. was 2.06 million, while the number of native-born and longer-term immigrant workers declined by more than 1.3 million.

The study, from the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University in Boston, is further confirmation that despite the recovery from the recession of 2001, American families are still struggling with serious issues of joblessness and underemployment.

The study does not mean that native-born workers and long-term immigrants are not finding jobs. The American workplace is a vast, dynamic, highly competitive arena, with endless ebbs and flows of employment. But as the study tallied the gains and losses since the end of 2000, it found that new immigrants acquired as many jobs as the other two groups lost, and then some.

Andrew Sum, the director of the center and lead author of the study, said he hoped his findings would spark a long-needed analysis of employment and immigration policies in the U.S. But he warned against using the statistics for immigrant-bashing.

"We need a serious, honest debate about where we are today with regard to labor markets," said Professor Sum, whose work has frequently cited the important contributions immigrants have made. The starkness of the study's findings, he said, is an indication that right now "there is something wrong."

The study found that the new immigrants entering the labor force were mostly male and "quite young," with more than one-fourth under the age of 25, and 70 percent under 35.

"Hispanics formed the dominant group of new immigrants," the study said, "with migrants from Mexico and Central America playing key roles. Slightly under 56 percent of the new immigrant workers were Hispanic, nearly another one-fifth were Asian, 18 percent were white, not-Hispanic, and 5 percent were black."

Those most affected by the influx of new immigrant workers are young, less well-educated American workers and so-called established immigrants, those who have been in the U.S. for a number of years.

Simply stated, there are not enough jobs being created to accommodate the wide variety of demographic groups in need of work. With that being the case, and with some employers actively recruiting new immigrants, the inevitable result has been the displacement of previously employed workers, especially in the less skilled and lower-income categories.

College-educated middle-class workers appear to be holding their own in the current employment environment, although significant numbers are underemployed. The situation is much bleaker for high school graduates and dropouts, especially for men, both black and white, and teenagers.

The new immigrants are not spread evenly across the U.S. The study identified 16 states that each had 50,000 or more new immigrants in the civilian labor force, ranging from slightly fewer than 55,000 in Colorado and Pennsylvania to 276,000 in Texas, and a high of 555,000 in California.

Professor Sum said he used data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics household survey, as opposed to its payroll survey (which is preferred by many economists), because it includes a number of categories of employment - contract workers, farm labor and others - that attract substantial immigrant labor but are not monitored by the payroll survey.

But even in the traditional area of manufacturing, for example, the employment of new immigrants has been significant. Referring to the period from 2000 to the fall of 2003, the study said, "Nearly 320,000 new immigrants obtained employment in the nation's manufacturing industries at a time when total wage and salary employment in these industries declined by more than 2.7 million positions."

If we are going to continue to encourage immigration, it's essential that we move once again toward full employment. Let the discussions begin now on how to get there. In the absence of full employment, an ugly face-off between American workers and newly arriving immigrants will be inevitable. That is not something we want or need to see."




Taking jobs from people of ALL races.Yes some pay taxes but they pay taxes on jobs that should be available to Americans first.The notion that illegals only take the jobs that Americans dont want no longer applies,unless you think there are plenty of good jobs available.For companies its how to keep the payroll as low as possible.The best way is to find the most desperate workers and those workers in many cases turn out to be illegal aliens.Not to mention those working "off the books".

Its Ok for tens of millions of Americans to be in poverty but try to protect their opportunities to work ahead of foreigners here illegally and anyone who defends them is a racist.

Not to mention illegal alien gang activity which is also increasing.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/01/AR2005080100604_pf.htmlwashingtonpost.com
Feds Make More Than 500 Gang Arrests





By LARA JAKES JORDAN
The Associated Press
Monday, August 1, 2005; 12:08 PM

WASHINGTON -- Federal authorities arrested 582 alleged gang members over a two-week period, officials said Monday, targeting an estimated 80 violent groups they say have spawned street crimes across the country.


More than half of them have been members of MS-13, a street gang rooted in Central America where members have been known to behead enemies and attack with grenades and machetes. Federal officials estimate between 8,000 and 10,000 MS-13 members live in 31 states _ the majority of them in the country illegally.

"We're just getting started," said ICE investigations chief Marcy Forman."

___


If Canadians were streaming across the border with the same effects I would be just as concerned.But you take a couple of snapshots of Nazis
at the border and you think that puts the issue to rest.

Are there benefits to new immigrants? Of course there is! Thats how this country was built.But there are times to say we are in trouble,we
have to think of Americans first.Corporations love illegal immigrants
because they mean more profit even if they pay taxes because they are willing to work for less in many cases.

If Bush and the GOP sided with you on a stance that you happened to take on a certain issue would you change it because you dont want to agree with them? People can agree on the same issue for different reasons.I dont know why thats so hard for some of you to understand.







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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Isn't that why they let them in?
Immigrants = Lower Wages for Locals.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. "They" being who?
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The U.S. Government
It's why they don't enforce the laws against hiring, much less don't strengthen them... never mind the H1B visa program which has only one purpose: lowering salaries of American Tech Jobs.

Who did you think I meant?
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I didnt know thats why I asked
Could have meant the government looking the other way or corporations.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. wage arbitrage of black market vs. free market
Not much different from buying stolen goods at below-cost prices and then reselling them at retail prices.

Any organization caught doing this should be dissolved and the entire management structure personally prosecuted.

Not likely to happen in Bushler's America.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I agree,one way to do that is to enforce the laws.
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ConfuZed Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Today I saw an american homeless man picking weeds
Obviously he wasn't being paid he just did it because he had nothing else to do and I thought to myself why can't he do it for minimum wage why do they have to continue to exploit immigrants coming here illegally because they want to pinch a penny.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. In 2014 When the Boomers retire there will be jobs jobs jobs. The
rich don't like inflation. So instead of the workers getting an employees market for once in 50 years.. documented workers who have to go home to the old country when they retire will the the solution.

Like I always say: Just what is it the rich are giving up. What is their sacrifice?
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. what kind of jobs do you believe will be left by then?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Service jobs. And not as many as there should be if documented
foreign workers are the way they handle the immigration issue.

It should be a workers market then. With one person retired for every two working..what else would happen.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. The article is not talking about illegal immigration
It's talking about legal immigration, as nearly as I can tell. The problem doesn't seem to be that new immigrants are taking jobs, but that the economy is only creating low-income jobs, and those are going to the lowest wage earners. That's the sing of a bad economy, not a bad immigration policy.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. The unempoyment rate is higher than the govt is letting on
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 09:26 PM by Lannes
I dont believe its as stretch of the imagination to believe that illegal aliens are depressing wages making low wages even lower increasing poverty.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Whether it's a stretch of the imagination has nothing to do with this
article.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. You are right
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 11:01 PM by Lannes
Its saying newly arrived immigrants are taking a majority of the jobs created many of them manufacturing jobs.It does not state legal or illegal which was my mistake in citing this report as far as strictly an illegal immigration problem but it does demonstrate that new immigrants,many of them illegal are willing to work for less making it more difficult for Americans,be they long term immigrants or natives to find good paying jobs.Its one of many reasons for our lousy economy but it should be addressed in tandem with the others

If its a choice between legal and illegal immigration I would much rather see the laws concerning illegal immigration enforced than have to resort to restricting legal immigration.As far as illegal immigration depressing wages,in Fla its a fact the construction industry is one example here.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I could be wrong, but I don't believe it included illegal immigrants
It never once mentions them, and since the article is about labor stats, they wouldn't have labor stats for illegal immigrants of the sort laid out here--how long they have been here, what they are making, etc.

I would assume this was about legal immigration until proven otherwise.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Lets assume you are right
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 11:23 PM by Lannes
Look at this statistic:

"The study found that from the beginning of 2001 through the first four months of 2004, the number of new immigrants who found work in the U.S. was 2.06 million, while the number of native-born and longer-term immigrant workers declined by more than 1.3 million."

Doesnt that show that there is a problem? I believe its because new immigrants are willing to work for less than their american counterparts already settled in which is a race to the bottom as far as wages are concerned.

Let me give you an example.a friend of mine who is of color and a caucasian are a part of a roughly 100 man construction crew.The rest according to him are newly arrived mexican immigrants.Why would that be the case? Racism? I dont think so.If the situations were reversed I would tend to believe it but I believe its all about who they can find to work for the least amount of money and right now those are newly arrived immigrants.Most of them illegal,Im not sure about this site.

So what do we do? seal off the border and not let anyone through? No.we enforce the laws IMO and increase the minimum wage so everyone has a fair chance to compete for a job and has a living wage.But these statistics tell me there is a problem,some may have different ideas on how to solve it but I do think we should try to get to the bottom of this and find a solution.

Strengthening the unions which have also started a thread about would also help.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. That's a different problem, though
If these are legal immigrants their jobs are following minimum wage laws, so the only reasons they would be getting jobs over native-born or longer-term immigrants are legal reasons. Willingness to work for lower wages might top this, but also skills and the types of jobs they are taking may be an issue. Plus, these numbers aren't broken down by wage level, and that don't tell us anything about who is getting what jobs. They don't say what percentage of the 1.3 million fewer jobs were longer-term immigrants who may no longer be here, nor what these numbers represent. Are the 1.3 million people unemployed, are they working for themselves now, are native-born and longer-term immigrant workers holding their jobs longer now that the economy sucks, so that newer jobs opening up are having to be filled by newer immigrants? Are these minimum wage jobs that more experienced workers wouldn't take, thus making it a problem with the sagging economy more than with immigration? There are a lot of possible variations within these bare numbers that may have little to do with immigration, and may have more to do with the economic condition of America.

Legal immigrants, including naturalized citizens, I assume, since it differentiates these from "native-born" citizens, pay taxes, shop, and contribute to the economy. I don't see any reason why everyone legally in this country should be treated differently from anyone else, no matter where they were born. Most of the legal immigrants I know aren't gang-bangers or problems in any way. Most of the problem-people I know are born here, so they don't appreciate what they have.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. But the problem is they arent all following the minimum wage laws
Edited on Tue Aug-09-05 12:06 AM by Lannes
What skills do mostly poor immigrants coming mainly from mexico and central America have that American workers dont?what legal reason would they have of getting a job over An american worker besides wages and skills?We have plenty of skilled workers here.Wages in my opinion is the main reason.


Back to illegal immigration there are many corporations like walmart,Tyson chicken that have been convicted of hiring them in large numbers.They do it because they will work for less.because the government wont let us have a living wage and illegals are cheaper.So we have to take a multi pronged approach.Enforce the laws that are on the books and increase the minimum wage so poorer Americans can have a better standard of living.
Ive never said or implied that illegal immigration is a cure all its part of the problem

I understand why illegals and legal immigrants come here,its the same reason my family did,opportunity.If we just let it become a race to the bottom we all lose.
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rudeboy666 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. Who said 'illegals"?
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 09:16 PM by rudeboy666
Re: labor

The article only mentioned recent immigrants. It said nothing about illegal immigrants.(maybe I missed it)

You are assuming that this is about illegal immigrants(which may likely be somewhat true). Nevertheless, you must be sure before you go on an anti-illegal alien rant.

Including an article on illegal alien gang members doesn't seem to add anything.

Addendum: illegal immigrant gang criminality is a legitimate issue. However, some could misinterpret the addition of that article (in the context of this thread) as mere playing into prejudices.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Most of the immigrants coming here are illegal
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 09:16 PM by Lannes
So it stands to reason they would make up a majority of those jobs being
taken.
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rudeboy666 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Sure
But you must be cautious.

Many studies on immigration and labor do not necessarily involve illegal immigrants.

Their inclusion (or exclusion) makes a BIG difference.

Unless indicated otherwise, it is safer to assume that the immigrants of the study were legal. Otherwise, it would clearly indicate the complexities of including illegal immigrants.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You make a valid point
I just find it hard to believe that illegal aliens werent figured in that study.I believe in tackling corporate excess,fraud,low taxation of the wealthy and illegal immigration.I just dont like the idea that it has to be off the table for fear of offending people.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You dont believe gang members coming here in large numbers
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 09:17 PM by Lannes
Isnt a problem?
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rudeboy666 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. It is a problem.
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 09:26 PM by rudeboy666
I know it, I live in the city of Los Angeles.

However, just throwing that article(about gangs) in the context of this thread is a bit irresponsible. Not to mention that you are making a questionable assumption that the subjects of the labor study were 'illegals'.

p.s. there are vast numbers of studies that DO take into account the effect of illegal immigration on labor and the economy. However, the authors of those studies are very careful to make explicit the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Perhaps I stated the wrong study
It didnt say legal or illegal but the statistics show that newly arrived immigrants are receiving the majority of new jobs created which IMO means we should review our policies for legal and illegal immigrations.Im not in favor of cutting off all immigration but if we are going to curtail it I believe it should start with illegal immigration.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Including the fact that illegal gang activity growing rapidly
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 09:33 PM by Lannes
is also a factor in illegal immigration is far from being irresponsible.It demonstrates that it isnt just about jobs.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. The article says that immigration should reviewed
I thought it was balanced unless you believe Bob Herbert not to be.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. Official poverty measures are actually an underestimate.
The poverty threshold is supposed to reflect the minimum amount needed to live independently. When the current formula was figured out in the 1960s, they took the amount needed to afford food and multiplied it by three, after finding that minimum costs consisted (on average) of one-third spent on food. By the admission of the people who came up with these guidelines, they were an underestimate for an income sufficient for basic needs then.

Today, since housing (among other things) costs so much more, the original guidelines are really outdated -- but still used. If they were updated to reflect the current situation, the official poverty rate would be anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times the current one.

Also, if we used the standard of most other countries and counted as impoverisehd anyone earning less than half the median income, the poverty rate would be much higher (like over 20 percent).

All that said, I strongly disagree with the idea that current immigration policy has anything to do with poverty.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. That wasnt what I was implying
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 09:54 PM by Lannes
If you take another look I also included low corporate taxation,offshoring of jobs and tax breaks for the wealthy.

My concern is that we cant absorb everyone who wants to come into this country right now.During the Clinton years I thought we could handle it because the economy was much better and there were better jobs available but now employers are in a race to the bottom to find the cheapest labor possible.Temps as opposed to full employment is a factor and so is illegal immigration.

I get upset when we discuss all those other issues but this one is taboo.If you have read my posts on the economy you will find that more than 99% of them deal with tax breaks for the rich and corporate fraud and sweetheart deals.

But if we are going to tackle the issues we have to tackle all of them nothing should be off the table.When I see a majority of posts dealing with illegal immigration showing pictures of nazis and hillbillies with guns I feel bad to say the least.
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Technowitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
33. Locking
This has become a flamewar.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator
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