The 2nd American Civil War has begun...Hawk kills Dove in KY

[hexola]

Man Kills Another in Dispute Over War -- Press Calls It a First

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001010741

By E&P Staff

Published: August 06, 2005 6:30 PM ET

NEW YORK It was bound to happen sooner or later, and in what newspapers in Kentucky are calling a first, one American has killed another in a dispute over the Iraq war.

It happened at Floyd County flea market on Thursday, when two friends, who were firearms vendors there, drew guns after quarreling about the war. Douglas Moore, 65, of Martin, who backs the war, shot and killed Harold Wayne Smith, 56, of Manchester, who opposed it, according to investigators.

Moore was released without being charged after he convinced police he had acted in self-defense. A grand jury may yet hear evidence in the case.

Commonwealth's Attorney Brent Turner said the episode might mark the first death in the U.S. due to a dispute over the war.

One witness, Sam Hamman of Prestonsburg, told the Lexington Herald-Leader, "Harold was talking about the 14 people that were killed in Iraq the other day and Doug said that just as many people were killed on the highways here.”

This quickly escalated into an argument, then to a scuffle, and finally both men drew pistols outside a snack shed. The dead man was apparently just a little slower in firing. Witnesses said he stood for about five seconds before toppling on the walkway.

In a telephone interview with the Lexington paper yesterday, Moore said police had told him not to discuss his feelings about the Iraq war.

"I'm sorry this has happened," Moore, a retired railroad worker, said. "But then what's done can't be undone." Moore told the Lexington reporter he thinks Smith and his family knew him well enough "to know what my thoughts are, his family does, because me and Harold was friends. That's all I'll say."

The daughter of the dead man said the two men were friends and had discussed Iraq before. She said her father "had different opinions than everybody. He felt it was wrong that all of these young people were losing their lives over what was going on. It was just a political disagreement, like a whole lot of people have."

[rodeodance]

1. sad, both had guns.

[ohio_liberal]

5. They were "firearms vendors"

Lucky they didn't kill someone else by accident

[whistle]

13. Which proves that guns don't kill, people do!

....Is that the message here? :yoiks:

[bryant69]

2. Obviously this is tragic

We'll have to see what comes of it - Moore will probably claim some kind of self defense?

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ohio_liberal]

3. Two older gents duelling at a flea market

That's pretty fucked up. Even worse that the police decided not to charge him.

[salin]

4. a couple of years ago, in a rural hoosier tavern, one

guy shoots another over a dispute over nascar drivers. A dispute that started over a hat.

Point - this isn't a sign of a civil war. It is a sign of overstressed and angry people who flip out at extreme and lethal levels. No different, imo, than the roadrage phenom.

However - religious and political leaders and tv/radio talking heads, who intentionally exploit this anger - and keep folks in a self-righteous frenzy - are, imo, a root cause escalating these kinds of behaviors - they serve to further unhinge the already unhinged.

[bertha katzenengel]

8. "this isn't a sign of a civil war" - you beat me to it, Salin, and thanks

We don't need this kind of rhetoric, any more than we need the cowboy mentality that our assclown leader has brought to a country that's gun crazy.

[blueknight]

9. i live in ky

where this took place is one of the most conservative areas of this state. very rural,very redneck. this is the type of place where thet have rebel flag bumperstickers all over. i cant imagine a liberal being comfortable there. if this was the other way around, there would be an idictment

[salin]

15. Somewhere in your state, a few years ago, didn't a candidate shoot

and kill a rival candidate?

[ToeBot]

6. "An armed populace is a safe populace", guess they proved that. n/t

[hexola]

7. "Ape has killed Ape..."

For some reson Im recalling that scene from one of the "Planet of The Apes" movies...

[HereSince1628]

10. The remorse is underwhelming, kill a friend then "oh well, what's

done can't be undone?"

[salin]

16. so much for personal accountability

[mark11727]

26. "Oops."

[Supersedeas]

32. eerrrr, self defense...ya know

[tx_dem41]

11. Its just a progression of the hostility and lack of communication...

that I see on political forums (including this one) every single day.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

31. the biggest mistake that humans make

is believing that communication has been achieved.

someone said that, don't know who, but it is a obvious and pertinent point.

[chelaque liberal]

12. She said her father "had different opinions than everybody....."

Everyone else thinks it's right that all of these young people are losing their lives.

Lovely

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. The guy wasn't charged with MURDER?

:wtf:

[hexola]

17. No - so why dont they just kill us all!

Kinda scary - murder is legal as long as the victim is anti-war

[Flubadubya]

18. Hawk kills Dove?

Wasn't much of a "dove" if he was carrying a gun, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, it sounds more like an "Old West" showdown at high noon. Who said that was just a myth?

[blueknight]

19. SALIN

you are correct. a man running for sheriff hired two meth heads to kill the sheriff whose job he was trying to take. this happened in pulaski county which is not real far from where this shooting occured

[hexola]

21. Oh please - sure only warmongers have guns...

Plenty of DUers packing heat...

[Flubadubya]

28. So, these DUers are not "doves" either.

:freak:

[hexola]

29. So a what makes a "dove" is more about guns than war...?

Im about as anti-war as they come...and I dont have any guns - but I dont have any major problem with guns.

I would consider any gun-owning war protester a "dove"

[Jack_DeLeon]

30. I concur...

I'm no dove, and I'm definately no pacifist.

If someone attacks me or those I care about I will fight back.

[Jack_DeLeon]

20. Apparently it was self defense....

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/state/12317968.htm

After a scuffle, Newsome said he saw Smith stand beside the snack shed, pull a small pistol out of his pocket, cock the hammer and say, "I'm going to blow your ... brains out."

Witnesses said Moore pulled a .38-caliber pistol from his pocket.

"Doug was just quicker," Harold Hannah of Salyersville said.

Newsome said he heard a pistol shot and assumed Smith had fired, but then saw blood spatter near Smith on the snack stand.

Still quite fucked up, well that someone would pull a gun over an argument, but its no suprise it has been done before.

Other than the fact that this argument was about the Iraq war this isnt really news. There are some people that have guns that probably shouldnt, however we should definately not restrict everyone's rights because of the actions of a few.

[Moderator]

22. hexola

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.


Thank you.


DU Moderator

[hexola]

23. thanks...will do-ski!

Sorry forgot about that...

I'd change it but the edit period expired...

Thanks for the reminder..

[Toots]

24. IMO one more gun dealer gone

That fact makes me happy. It is too bad it happens to be the one who opposed the Iraq war but he still was aiding to the arming of America. Live by the gun die by the gun.

[Hubert Flottz]

25. Same old story! (election day August 7th, 1882)

The Story

Snip>

When the polls opened at Blackberry Creek precinct on August 7, 1882, the West Virginia Hatfields appeared, as was their custom. Early in the day, after whiskey had begun to flow, Tolbert McCoy, son of Randolph, accused "Bad Lias" Hatfield, brother of Preacher Hatfield, of owing him a small sum of money for a fiddle, but "Bad Lias" angrily protested that he paid Tolbert previously. As the day wore on, Ellison Hatfield, brother of Devil Anse, made remarks to Tolbert which led him to turning his wrath on Ellison. He attacked Ellison with a knife and the two younger McCoys rushed to the aid of Tolbert and began cutting Ellison. At that instant, Pharmer grabbed his pistol and shot Ellison in the back. Elias, brother of Ellison, forced the gun from Pharmer's hand and tried to shoot him. The McCoys ran and sought cover in the woods. The McCoy brothers were captured and put in custody of a justice of the peace and a constable for the trip to the Pikeville jail. Ellison Hatfield was taken on a stretcher to his home in West Virginia. The next day, before the McCoy boys could be taken to Pikeville, Devil Anse organized a posse and took the McCoy boys away from the guards. Crossing the Tug River at the mouth of Blackberry Creek, the Hatfields took the three boys to an unused schoolhouse on Mate Creek. Sarah McCoy, hearing of the capture of her sons, lost no time riding to Devil Anse across the river. Sarah demanded to know why Devil Anse was holding her sons in West Virginia when they should be in jail in Pikeville. Devil Anse replied, "I'm holding them to see if Ellison dies. If he dies or gets better, I promise I'll bring them back to Kentucky alive." More...

http://www.se-tel.com/~tourpikeco/story.htm


A verse or two of Mulligan’s In Kentucky finds excellent application here:



"The bluegrass waves the bluest In Kentucky;

Yet, bluebloods are the fewest (?) In Kentucky;

Moonshine is the clearest, By no means the dearest,

And yet, it acts the queerest In Kentucky.



“The dove-notes are the saddest, In Kentucky:

The streams dance on the gladdest In Kentucky:

Hip pockets are the thickest, Pistol hands the slickest,

The cylinder turns quickest In Kentucky.



"The song birds are the sweetest In Kentucky:

The thoroughbreds are fleetest In Kentucky:

Mountains tower proudest, Thunder peals the loudest,

The landscape is the grandest, AND POLITICS - the damndest

In Kentucky."


http://www.kentuckystewarts.com/RowanCounty/AFeuding.htm


HOWARD-TURNER FEUD

Starting as a quest for revenge, the Howard-Turner feud in Harlan County, Kentucky, escalated into a crisis of law and order that tagged the county with the epithet "bloody" and cast the state in a backward light. It began on March 7, 1882, with the killing of Bob Turner, son of Democratic county chairman George B. Turner, by Wix Howard a day or so after a dispute over a card game. When Howard was acquitted of murder charges, Turner's brother Will made an unsuccessful attempt on Howard's life. Forced to leave the state, Will returned in 1885 and surrendered to authorities, only to be shot down on the courthouse square. The suspected killer, Wils Howard, was a friend of Wix Howard. While out on bond, Wils and his uncle, Will Jennings, tried twice to ambush the Turners; two innocent bystanders, Alexander and John Bailey, were killed. Wils Howard and Jennings went west, and the Wix Howard faction dropped out of the feud.

In 1888 County Judge Wilson Lewis declared war on the illegal whiskey business; when Howard and Jennings returned to the county the following spring, they aligned themselves with the whiskey interests. Wanted on criminal charges in Missouri, they were tracked to Kentucky by a detective who enlisted the help of George B. Turner Jr. In August 1889 Howard killed Turner while he was drinking from a spring. Lewis then raided Howard's camp, with the loss of two lives. Howard escaped. Gov. S. B. Buckner (1887-91) sent troops to guard the circuit court; when they left, Lewis's brother-in-law John Cawood and his hired hand were killed by Howard supporters. When Howard and his followers gathered at the mouth of Poor Fork and threatened to storm the county seat, Lewis attacked first, killing one man and routing the rest. Jennings was arrested in Missouri, returned for trial, convicted of killing one of the Baileys, and given a life sentence. Howard was imprisoned in California for robbing a stagecoach, extradited to Missouri, and in 1894 was hanged for killing a deaf-mute. More...

http://history.ky.gov/Archives%20week/Documenting%20a%20KY%20Journey%20-%20Area%20F/Cumberland%20vendetta%20transcript.htm

Judge James Hargis Shot To Death By Drunken First-Born In Jackson

Louisville Courier-Journal

Jackson, Kentucky, February 6, 1908

Former Judge James Hargis was shot and almost instantly killed by his son, Beech Hargis, a few minutes before three o'clock this afternoon.

The murder was as deliberate and cold-blooded as was ever committed. The tragedy occurred about 2:45 o'clock this afternoon, and was witnessed by several of the clerks and a number of customers, who were making purchases at the time.

The news soon spread over town, and in a quarter of an hour the streets were filled with the excited and horror-stricken people, who stood around in groups discussing the awful deed. More...

http://www.breathittcounty.com/BreathittWeb2/HargisDeath.html

Just Politics? These are just a few of the MANY feuds in the area!

[KansDem]

27. "The dead man was apparently just a little slower in firing."

Welcome (back) to the "OK Corral."