A question about Dean

[VermontDem2004]

This is from the other thread.

1. Why did you support sending Vermont's nuclear waste to the poor, mostly Hispanic town of Sierra Blanca, Texas, 16 miles from the Mexican border -- a plan described as "blatant environmental racism" by Paul Wellstone?


I spent countless hours looking for a quote or an action Dean took which resulted him in supporting the action took, know I don't know if he was for or against it because I couldn't find a quote or an action Dean took to inform me. But if you can prove to me Dean supported this WITH the knowledge of the dangers that exsisted, I will no longer support Howard Dean for President.

Let me add the Nuclear waste wasn't going to be dumped on the town, there was a small mountain or a butte called Sierra Blance near the town of Sierra Blanca, but even if they dumped it there, there would still be enviromental harm on the citizens of the town and I believe it would contaminate the water.

[niceypoo]

1. I dont doubt some here get their smears from freeperland

there are plenty of right wing smear sites with such information

[WilliamPitt]

4. Run by Paul Wellstone?

"Blatant environmental racism" <----- Wellstone.

[WilliamPitt]

2. I'd like to know

how asking a bunch of questions equals 'spam' or 'flamebait.' That was weird...and maybe I'm just out of the loop.

If they are questions that have been asked and answered a bunch of times, well, get used to it. As more people come to look at Dean, they will ask these questions (especially after getting them from the opp party). You've answered them a billion times? Answer them a billion more.

[HFishbine]

11. A billion?

How about just one answer to explain Clark's lobbying on behalf of Acxiom?

[ModerateMiddle]

16. and this has to do with Dean how?

I find that a repetitive argument on behalf of Dean - If I cannot answer a legitimate question in a satisfactory manner, I will instead bring up a question about ANOTHER candidate, and thereby divert attention from that question.

[Castilleja]

13. I think this is sensible advice.

And should be repeated any time a candidate question thread is posted, no exceptions. Maybe someone could add it retroactively to each of the prior threads in this same vein? O8)

[meegbear]

3. Oh drop it, would you?

Christ.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Drop what?

Explain to me how asking these questions is a bad thing?

[VermontDem2004]

6. I would

if anti-Dean people would stop asking the question without providing a quote or an action Dean took which indicated that he supported dumping the nuclear waste on a small mountain near a small hispanic town WHILE knowing the dangers that exsisted. Now this is a General Discussion Forum, I would like to know about the candidates running for office.

[CMT]

7. Vermontdem 2004,

tsipple answered some of the questions including this one on the thread that Wyldwolf posted asking ten questions--which has been locked but it is still making its way down the page.

Anyhow, I hope you don't leave the Dean campaign we would certainly miss you and your passion and support, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I know we will all be together in Nov '04.

[wyldwolf]

8. He spun the answers... without giving sources that he so requires...

..for the Dean questions.

quotes:

Percentages are very misleading, You need numbers, Sir, the main reason why Dean would be willing to roll over for IBM is that everyone in Vermont wants him to do so, it's not like it's anything differently then any other petty politician corruption, It would make it look like he's weak on national security, he may not know the best way to deal with the Pentagon's budget.

Spin, waffle, and especially the fist lines, "fuzzy math."

[VermontDem2004]

9. I haven't found tsipple's response but I did see this

I would guess he supported it since I doubt DeanDefense would say he did if he didn't, but there's no documentation to back it up, so who knows? Nothing wrong with waiting for direct proof before believing something, especially given the woeful state of the General Discussion forum these days.

http://deandefense.org/archives/000017.html

Farrell Claims: Dean supported sending nuclear waste to a poor Hispanic Texas town.

Truth: As Vermont’s Governor, Dean supported getting nuclear waste out of his state into safer storage sites. The 1998 proposal of using Sierra Blanca, Texas as a repository was part of a compact, supported by Texas, Maine and Vermont, passed by Congress, and signed by President Clinton. As President, Dean would work towards a non-political solution to the nuclear waste storage issue based on science and safety.

more...

I know about that the story, Texas, Maine, Vermont struck a deal, but it was up to the Texas Legislature to Find a Site, and not surprisingly Bush recommended the site "Sierra Blanca". Well Wellstone stepped in talking about how it was dangerous and urged them to move the site, later on Texas did move the site because Sierra Blanca was deemed "dangerous". But what I was looking for what did Dean do or say when the possible dangers were discovered and they were debating on whether or not they should move the site.

[CMT]

10. where to store nuclear waste is a no-winner

it doesn't matter where you send it someone is going to hate it being in there state or near their city or their town. I honestly don't know if Dean had any other choices but I feel for the people of any area which is near nuclear waste material.

[VermontDem2004]

12. Well they did move it to a safe place

Andrews County which was 20 miles northeast of Midland, Texas. My point is, Wellstone urged Texas to move the site to a safer location, I was wondering if Dean did the same or said he wants the site to stay, whatever it is I can't find the answer because quotes are hard to come buy.

Actually they were forced to move it because it would contaminate the water supply and cause great radioactive harm to the people that live nearby.

[ModerateMiddle]

18. My understanding is that he didn't take a position

This was something that was happening in Congress - approval of the interstate treaty of sorts. Maine and Vermont needed to get the nuclear waste out of areas with a tremendous amount of rainfall and drainage issues - Texas was willing to take the waste. I think the position of both the Vt and Me congress critters - and presumably their respective governors - was that it was Texas' responsibility to find a safe storage site in their state.

[VermontDem2004]

21. I know the whole story

I get tired of having it repeated to me everytime the question is asked but I am not mad, I know the Texas legislature voted on the site, but When Wellstone heard about it he noted that dump sites like Sierra Blanca are "almost always located in a community of color," they were never "where any senators live." He urged them to move the site, I was wondering, was Dean urging Bush and the Texas Legislature to move the site, or was he 100% behind it while knowing of the dangers?

[ModerateMiddle]

27. Well, I don't believe he took a stand

either way. You are proposing that he took one of two polar positions, and my contention is that he didn't take a position on it at all, because his prime objective was getting it away from the runoff problems they had in Vermont.

[blm]

111. If Dean had urged Bush to move it, he would have

said so and published a copy of the letter.

If he had urged Bush to move it, he would have taken credit for it back when environmentalists were beating him on it.

[wyldwolf]

14. Well, of course Deandefense.org would spin it for dean!

Here is one source for the story:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0523-03.htm

Is commondreams biased against Dean?

[VermontDem2004]

17. What does that article prove?

It just says he advocated dumping nuclear waste without providing a quote or an action Dean took to indicate he supported this while knowing the dangers.

[wyldwolf]

20. I guess the same thing the clarkdefense site proves...

...the clarkdefense article give no Dean quotes defending the action.

I guess Wellstone was lying about it.

[VermontDem2004]

22. Wellstone was lying about what?

He was correct, sites like this are always around built around communities of color and it was blatant enviromental racism. But I have no knowledge of whether Dean supported this or he was against it, I just what a quote or an action Dean took which would lead me to believe Dean supported this while knowing of the dangers.

[wyldwolf]

50. Pure speculation...

If you want to pretend Howard Dean approved of dumping nuclear waste without knowing where it was going or the dangers of it proved by prior studies - and it took the actions of outside parties to stop it - then you're building a case for Dean's ignorance or flat out irresponsibility.

Mr Dean, where will the waste be dumped?

I DON'T KNOW!

Mr. Dean, weren't you aware of the studies and statistics on the dangers of similar sites?

UH... UH... I'LL GET BACK TO YOU....

[VermontDem2004]

54. I have a hard time arguing with you

because it is difficult for you take in simple knowledge. Vermont and Maine says we need a place to dump Nuclear waste, Texas has a lot of open spaces so we call Bush. We strike a deal, we pay Texas to allow them to dump our waste. Now it is up to the Texas Legislature to vote on the proposed site, now Dean or the Maine Governor did not have a vote. Know what I am asking is did Dean support the site? Or did he urge Bush to move the site to a new location?

[wyldwolf]

56. Because you don't stay consistant...

you want a quote where Dean says he approved it despite multiple sources that show SOMEONE in Vermont did - who could only be the governor - then you put out speculations like "Dean MUST have urged Bush to move it" blah blah blah...

The truth is starting you in the face. Dean approved Sierra Blanca.

If he DIDN'T, he was a clueless governor who didn't know what was going on.

[VermontDem2004]

59. you are the one not staying consistent

If Dean approved the site show me a quote or an action Dean took. Show me the post number where I said "Dean must have urged Bush to move it" I said "Did Dean urge Bush to move it or did he support it?"

He did approve the deal to dump Nuclear waste in TEXAS, it was up to the Texas legislature to pick where, I hope and pray to god you understand this.

[wyldwolf]

62. It's in your implication...

by saying, "Did Dean urge Bush to move it or did he support it?", you try to inject an option that no evidence suggests and to raise doubt.

If, as you would have it, Dean urged Bush to move it, where it the proof?

If Dean found out after the deal was struck, why didn't he cancel it? He didn't!

And what does it say about a governor who strikes a deal to dump nuclear waste, doesn't know where it is going, but Congress has to block it?

He was either ignorant and irresponsible or devious and a party to lawbreaking.

[VermontDem2004]

64. Here you go again

how hard is it for you to inject simple knowlegde into your brain?

If, as you would have it, Dean urged Bush to move it, where it the proof?


I did not say that, I want to know what Dean did, I am not saying "well since I can't find any proof that Dean was for it, Dean urged Bush to move it."

I wouldn't of cancelled the deal, I would've urged Bush to move it somewhere else, plus you may need the permission of the Maine Governor to cancel the deal because his/her's waste is being dumped there to.

I never said Dean never knew where it was going this is what you are assuming "Since I don't have any information of Dean urging Bush to move the site, Dean backed Bush 100%" We don't know and unless someone can give me a quote of Dean stating whether or not he supported the site.

[TLM]

72. Dean had no say over the site...

He had no say over the federal program to secure the waste.


It was Texas, under Bush, that picked the site and was later forced to change the site.


Dean had no say over what Bush did in Texas.

[wyldwolf]

75. But he DID have the power to cancel the deal...

..which he didn't do.

The question remains, what did Dean know about Sierra Blanca and when did he know it?

[VermontDem2004]

85. He would need the support of the Maine Governor

He/she was also in the deal, but the site got moved and they needed to put the nuclear waste somewhere.

[wyldwolf]

88. He DID NOT need the permission of anyone else...

...to pull Vermont out of the deal.

[TLM]

91. And then what? Keep the waste is an unsafe site?

Then you bashers would be in here screaming that Dean refused to move toxic waste out of Vermont to safer locations and irresponsibly endangered people and the Vermont water supply by securing the waste in inferior storage facilities... even as the federal government was offering a program to store the waste safely in another location.

[TLM]

89. Please site a source for this claim...

Last I checked, a single state governor did not have the authority to cancel federal programs by proclamation.

So please site the source that Dean alone had the authority to cancel this federal program.

[wyldwolf]

93. Quit while you're ahead...

Maine and Vermont both planned to ship their waste to the dump under an agreement signed by the states in 1993.

Sierra Blanca was rejected based on a decision by the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission after the site was agreed upon.

Activists in Texas and in Maine and Vermont said the town had been chosen because it lacked political clout.

"Nuclear waste dumps are a terrible way to store waste - all burial sites leak," said Lea Terhune, head of the Vermont Sierra Club. "What Vermont Sierra Club supports is storing the waste above ground, in a secure facility at Vermont Yankee."

Here is the kicker. Dean said, "This is not a big issue. Texas has the responsibility to site this (nuclear waste dump) and they will."

[VermontDem2004]

95. He also said "We have much too much moisture in the ground and too much ra

You got it from this article.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/4745/LLRW/Texas/vermont.html

[TLM]

96. You keep repeating the same crap.... and ignoring the facts.

I see you can still site no source.

"Maine and Vermont both planned to ship their waste to the dump under an agreement signed by the states in 1993. Sierra Blanca was rejected based on a decision by the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission after the site was agreed upon."

Agreed upon by whom? The agreement to move the waste was made long before the site was designated in texas, and rejected in texas when it was found that they lied about the safety. Then another site in texas was selected, and OK'ed.

So I fail to see how Dean had any role in the selection of sierra blanca, the lying about the safety, or the designation of the new site.

"Nuclear waste dumps are a terrible way to store waste - all burial sites leak," said Lea Terhune, head of the Vermont Sierra Club. "What Vermont Sierra Club supports is storing the waste above ground, in a secure facility at Vermont Yankee."

And the above ground facility in vermont was not only not big enough, it was right next to a major water source.

"Here is the kicker. Dean said, "This is not a big issue. Texas has the responsibility to site this (nuclear waste dump) and they will." "

And? This was Texas' responsibility. And nice selective quoting there...you left out the first half of that quote. Typicaly dishonest dean bashing.



MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) - Efforts will continue to find a site in Texas to ship Vermont's low-level radioactive waste, despite the rejection of one location by a state panel there, Gov. Howard Dean says.

Dean rejected calls by some anti-nuclear activists that Vermont should take care of its own waste, storing it above-ground at the Vermont Yankee nuclear plant in Vernont.

"We have much too much moisture in the ground and too much rain," Dean said. "This is not a big issue. Texas has the responsibility to site this (nuclear waste dump) and they will."


<snip>


Public Service Department Commissioner Richard Sedano said, however, that the state had studied the Vermont Yankee location and decided it was not the place to store waste.

Before the Texas agreement, Vermont had its own Low-level Radioactive Waste Authority, which spent more than $3 million in three years designing a dump and trying to find a community that would host it.

The Vermont Yankee site was ruled out because of wetlands and its location on the Connecticut River. Three Vermont towns expressed some interest in hosting the dump but eventually decided they did not want it. The state abandoned its search for a site in Vermont after it signed the agreement with Maine and Texas.

[VermontDem2004]

97. I made that point earlier

that it was too small and it was near a river and could contaminate the river if it leaked.

[wyldwolf]

100. Here is your link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=430789

[TLM]

109. A link to another DU thread where you just repeat the same crap

is not a source for your claim.

And the article you site, you keep editing out the parts that pointed out why the site in vermont wasn't suitable.

[TLM]

108. You have to understand that for Dean bashers...

there is no right answer. THere is nothing Dean could have done that would make them say oh he made the right choice.

If he moves the waste out of vermont, he's an evil bastard trying to poison poor mexicans.

If he keeps the waste in vermoent, he's an evil poluter who wants to poison Vermonets rivers and wetlands.


So you can not approch this as if some logical explaination of the reasons Dean was making the better choice by moving this waste to a secure location, is going to make any difference to the bashers.

They do no care that Dean had no way to know that Bush lied in the report on Sierra Blanca. Dean had no say over the process to select the storage site. Dean's role started and ended within the boarders of Vermont... to store this waste in a site that was not secure or suited to the task that would risk contamination of water sources or to move it out of state under this federal program.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. It was low level waste

Like X-rays. Bush had his team doing the study leave out pertinent facts about the site. As far as I know, Dean didn't find out about any of this until the state of Texas filed a lawsuit against Vermont demanding payment for the hosting of low level waste that never even got hosted by Texas. The "waste" in question wasn't anywhere near as horrible as people on here are being led to believe it to be. Bush was trying to screw over the people who lived in that area by lying about the safety of the site. There is actually a fault there that makes any kind of site unstable. The study Bush had done left that fact out of the report. I'm not sure why the site didn't go there, but I highly doubt Dean supported the site if he was aware of the study he was given being bogus.

[VermontDem2004]

19. That is what I was looking for

I think the TRCC (not sure what the accronym is) forced the Texas legislature to move the site because Sierra Blanca was deemed unsafe. I am very much aware of what happened, but what I don't know did Dean supported this while knowing of the dangers, perhaps I will never know. But I get tired of people posting that Dean supported it without providing a quote or an action Dean took to inform me that he supported it while knowing the dangers.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. I doubt he would

And you can guarantee that if he did, there would be some kind of quote out there that the Vermont radicals would be pointing to. Dean's job was to serve Vermont, so I see nothing at all wrong with him wanting to send the low level waste elsewhere. He was doing his job. He was given bad information on the site, so I'm sure he did support it when he thought it was safe. I don't picture him supporting it if it wasn't. It would be entirely unlike him to do that. Why don't you write to his campaign and ask them?

[wyldwolf]

24. Here are the facts on the "low level waste."

What is "low level" waste? What will be dumped in Sierra Blanca?

Wastes from nuclear power plants will comprise 97 percent of the dump's radioactive content. "Low level" waste from power plans includes irradiated components and piping, the control rods from the reactor core, poison curtains from the reactor core and irradiated fuel pool, resins, sludge, and entire plants when they are decommissioned. The waste includes elements like plutonium (hazardous 500,000 years), iodine-129 (hazardous for 160 million years), strontium-90 (hazardous for 300 years) and nickel-59 (hazardous for 760,000 years). The "acceptable body dose" of plutonium is one millionth of a gram, because of its cancer-causing properties.

Chronic exposure to low levels of radiation from 90 commercial nuclear plants over the period of 1970 to 1987 has led to a high risk of breast cancer death among women living near the plants. In Texas, statistics show a 67 percent increase in breast cancer mortality in Matagorda County - home to the South Texas Nuclear Project - in the five years after the plant came on line as compared to the five years before. The state rate increased 10 percent. Prostate cancer increased a tragic 290 percent, compared to the state increase of 26 percent.

http://www.marfalights.com/sbdump.html

The nuclear utilities of Texas, Maine, Vermont, and possibly other states will transfer liability to the State of Texas for leaks or accidents that happen with the waste once it is at the dump. The Compact Agreement signed by Texas, Maine, and Vermont (now awaiting Congressional approval) stipulates that, "No non-host party state shall be liable for any harm or damage from the siting, operation, maintenance or long-term care relating to the compact facility." (Sec. 8.03)

This was Howard Dean's baby.

[VermontDem2004]

25. I know

It's hazardous isn't it? But did Dean urge Bush to move the site or was he 100% behind it while knowing of the dangers that exsisted?

[VelmaD]

26. It doesn't matter whether he supported...

the original site or moving it. He was still involved in dumping waste from his state thousands of miles away in MY state instead of dealing with the problem locally.

If people want to have nuclear power they should have to del with the by-products instead of shipping them off for others to deal with the contamination and health effects.

DV

[wyldwolf]

30. small correction - Dean WANTED to dump the waste... Wellstone

stopped him.

[VelmaD]

36. Not sure what you're correcting...

I was talking about Dean in my post and so was the person I was replying to I think.

[VermontDem2004]

40. Of course he wanted to dump the waste

the relevant thing is where. Now they did move the site to Andrews County and dumped the waste there, Andrew County was approved and it was safe for dumping. The issue about whether or not Vermont had an above ground facility is irrelevant. The relevant thing was did Dean support the dumping of the proposed site?

[ModerateMiddle]

32. I'm not in the habit of defending Dean

because I don't care for him as a candidate (for reasons that belong in other threads), but I do believe that what Vt and Me were trying to do was reasonable. The Northeast has many more drainage problems and much more rain than some other areas in the country, and waste storage was and is a problem there. The argument would be similar if the waste was moved from one location WITHIN a state to another location in that same state - why us?

A much bigger problem (aside from the fact that Sierra Blanca was an economically depressed area) is that the transporting of nuclear waste is a huge potential for disaster.

[VermontDem2004]

34. Andrews County in Texas

had no problem with the Nuclear Waste being dumped there.

[wyldwolf]

39. And that makes it OK?

:eyes:

[VermontDem2004]

42. Yes it does

Roll your eyes all you want, if a site is safe for nuclear waste dumping then it is ok, even Bernie Sanders the most progressive congressman in the house said that he doesn't like dumping Nuclear Waste, but there is nuclear waste and Andrews County was the best place to dump it.

[wyldwolf]

46. Bull!

Building the site in Sierra Blanca would violate the 1983 La Paz Agreement signed by the United States and Mexico that states that the two countries will "prevent, reduce and eliminate sources of pollution in their respective territory that affect the border area (100 km) of the other."

The proposed dump would violate Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed by Congress to prevent discriminatory activities.

If a local legislature approved the dump, it still would not be OK.

[VermontDem2004]

48. You are getting confused

I didn't say the site in Sierra Blanca would be ok, I said the dumping in ANDREWS COUNTY was ok. Waste Control Specialists, LLC already operated a hazordous and toxic wasted dump in the 1,338 acre site before they chose to dump the Vermont-Maine Nuclear waste there.

[VelmaD]

41. The people of Andrews County had no say

Do you know much of anything about the history on this? I do because I was involved in the fight to keep the TX leg from letting it happen. The waste dump is owned by a wealthy rethug contributor who doesn't live anywhere near the site. Basically he is going to get the fees for dumping there while the people of TX are going to be on the hook for any costs if there is an accident or any contamination. Pretty sweet deal for that owner huh?

And it isn't just that they want to dump in my state. It's the transportation issue. That's a long damn way to haul nuclear waste. Not just across the rest of the US but ALL THE WAY across Texas. Through my hometown dammit.

Sorry. I get a little het up about this.

[VermontDem2004]

45. I know probaly alot more then you do

I researched alot about this and I know a whealthy repug contributor benefited from this, but there were no dangers involved, no one died or no one lost a leg or whatever. The site was approved and deemed safe.

[VelmaD]

49. Last I checked...

they hadn't started hauling waste in to dump there in earnest. You might want to reserve judgment on whether "no one died" til the trucks start rolling in.

[VermontDem2004]

51. Well perhaps you never heard of LLC

a Houston based company which already operated hazordous and toxic waste dump before they choose the site. Btw the Bush contributor which benefited from it was Texas Billionare Howard Simmons.

[VelmaD]

53. Yes I knew...

about the toxic waste dump that's already there. Having that dump in the area is bad enough and you think adding muclear waste on top of that is a good idea?

[wyldwolf]

35. Why do you think they picked a poverty strickened hispanic area?

... close to Mexico?

And Vermont had an existing above ground storage facility in place.

[VermontDem2004]

38. Vermont didn't pick the site

The Texas Legislature did. Plus the above ground storage could only hold a small amount of nuclear waste and it was near water and if it leaked it would contaminate the water supply, even Bernie Sanders supported moving it to Texas.

[wyldwolf]

43. Dean approved it, though...

..you have NO SOURCES to prove Dean didn't know where it was going.

[VermontDem2004]

47. I also have no sources that he did know either

Dean is not the Governor of Texas or in the Texas Legislature. He signed the deal and it was up to the Texas Legislature to come up with the site. Then Wellstone stepped in once he was aware of the dangers and urged Texas to move the site, now when this was going on did Dean urge Bush to move the site or was he 100% behind it?

[wyldwolf]

55. Think about what you are implying...

(Dean) signed the deal and it was up to the Texas Legislature to come up with the site.

but they didn't tell Dean... right?

Then Wellstone stepped in once he was aware of the dangers and urged Texas to move the site

And Dean still didn't know at this point - assuming that he wasn't told when Texas first decided on Sierra Blanca?

now when this was going on did Dean urge Bush to move the site or was he 100% behind it?

Dean could have nixed the deal at anytime. I think if you want to ASSUME Dean was suddenly not behind the deal when he found out it was Sierra Blanca, the burden of proof is on you.

However, Dean wasn't the one who cancelled the deal. And I refuse to believe someone who is a smart as Dean seems to be would somehow be obivious to the location and then still back the deal until Wellstone lobbied Congress to stop it.

[VermontDem2004]

57. I am sure Dean knew

Now what was his position?


but they didn't tell Dean... right?

They probaly did after they voted to approve the site. What I am asking is not whether or not Dean knew, what I am asking did he urge Bush to move the site or did he support dumping the waste in Sierra Blanca?

I think if you want to ASSUME Dean was suddenly not behind the deal when he found out it was Sierra Blanca, the burden of proof is on you.

I am not assuming anything, I just want to know was Dean for or against it. I am not assuming that "oh, he was behind it since I can't find prove that he wasn't" I am not going to have a position on this issue until I find out all the facts. No one cancled the deal, some Texas organization researched the site and deemed it "unsafe" and forced the Texas Legislature to propose a new site and vote on it.

[wyldwolf]

63. This is getting comical

They probaly did...

Well, you would hopefully THINK they would tell him. Or that Dean would take it upon himself to find out.

I'm going to assume at one point he knew it was Sierra Blanca. What did he do? Nothing.

Wellstone and Congress did.

[VermontDem2004]

66. I am sure he knew

Are you happy?

How do you know he did nothing? How do I know he did anything? We will both never know unless we find out. He may have urged Bush to move the site, he may have just sat on his ass. But we don't have a source saying that he did either one.

[wyldwolf]

68. We know Wellstone and Congress stopped it...

..when Howard Dean had the power himself to.

[TLM]

79. Please explain how Dean had the power to halt a federal program

Dean had no say over the federal mandate to secure waste, nor did he have any say over the designation of the storage site.

[wyldwolf]

90. It was a STATE agreement entered into with Texas...

While it is a FEDERAL mandate to secure waste, it is and was a STATE issue on where to put it - with Dean squarely in charge of the State of Vermont.

[VermontDem2004]

92. The Nuclear waste was stored in Texas

not Vermont. You said it was a STATE issue on where to put it, well like I stated, it was up to the Texas Legislature to propose a site then vote on it.

[TLM]

94. Cite a source for you claims... you can't because you're blowing smoke.

"While it is a FEDERAL mandate to secure waste,"

So you admit Dean had no say on whether or not to move the waste to a secure, that was a federal mandate.



"it is and was a STATE issue on where to put it - with Dean squarely in charge of the State of Vermont."

Wrong again. The state issue was for payment from one state to the state housing the waste. Dean had no say over the process of submitting a site or approving a site... as that was the federal part of the program.

Dean had no say over the site Texas picked, and no way to know they lied about the safety of the site.

SO how exactly could Dean cancel the program?

[wyldwolf]

101. Here ya go!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=430789

[TLM]

110. A link to another DU thread where you repeat the same crap

isn't a source.

Where is your source to show that Dean knew that the reports on Sierra Blanca were false... the soruce that shows Dean had any say over the site designation process... the shource that says Dean had the power to cancel the federal program.


You keep makign all these bullshit claims, and have no source.

[TLM]

74. Umm it was a federal program....

This is not some idea Dean had one day to force Vermonts waste on some poor mexicans.

The federal government says that this waste has to be secured. Texas says they have a site. But Bush lied about the site and safety issues in Texas.

So how is that Dean's fault?

The best attacks you have on Dean is that he didn't go to another state and stop their problems to. Dean did not designate the site or the state. Dean did not suggest Texas. Dean simply said OK to the federal program to get the waste to a secred location.

You know if Dean had refused or fought this and insisted the waste stay in nice rainy Vermont, the same damn people would be attacking him for forcing vermonters to suffer in a radioactive waste soup instead of securing the waste.

[wyldwolf]

29. There is no evidence he urged Bush to do anything...

The above cited passages show studies that existed before this deal was brockered. If Dean didn't know, he can only blame himself. One thing is for sure - he didn't want the waster in Vermont even though there were facilities in place in Vermont to store nuclear waste.

"The nuclear utilities of Texas, Maine, Vermont, and possibly other states will transfer liability to the State of Texas for leaks or accidents that happen with the waste once it is at the dump. The Compact Agreement signed by Texas, Maine, and Vermont (now awaiting Congressional approval) stipulates that, "No non-host party state shall be liable for any harm or damage from the siting, operation, maintenance or long-term care relating to the compact facility." (Sec. 8.03)"

This was Howard Dean's baby.

[VermontDem2004]

33. Ok you have no idea what went on

They came up with the deal first

secondThe Texas Legislature voted to approve the site at Sierra Blanca

ThirdThe people of the town protested the dumping and the Senator of Minnesota stepped in and urged Bush to move the site

Now, Dean had no idea where the site was going to be when he approved of the deal, it was up to the Texas Legislature to decide where the site goes. Know when Wellstone discovered of the dangers, he urged Texas to move the site, now did Dean urge Bush to move the site or did he support it. Simple question.

EDIT:The storage container was too small to hold all the waste and would leak in the nearby river due to large amounts of rain, even Bernie Sanders supported moving the site to TEXAS, I have no idea what was his position on moving it away from Sierra Blanca.

[wyldwolf]

37. How do you know all of this?

"Dean had no idea where the site was going to be when he approved of the deal."

Sources?

And besides, Vermont had a recommended above ground storage area but Dean wanted it out of Vermont.

[VermontDem2004]

52. Because they struck a deal first

then the Texas legislature voted on a site which Bush recommended. How hard is that for you to understand?

[wyldwolf]

60. How hard is it for you to show ...

..a timeline on this.

Again, if Dean DID NOT KNOW it was Sierra Blanca until AFTER the deal was struck, why did he not cancel it when he found out?

Remember, Congress was lobbied by Wellstone to prevent it. Not Dean.

Dean either didn't know - and was ignorant and irresponsible for not knowing...

or he DID know and was devious and a party to breaking laws. Either way, Dean looks bad.

[VermontDem2004]

61. ok

Dean may have knew about several proposed sites when he signed the deal, but you don't have to cancel the deal, you can urge Bush to move it somewhere else. Wellstone didn't want the deal canceled, he wanted the approved site to be somewhere else. I know what efforts Wellstone took. But what if Dean did urge Bush to move it but we have no idea because we don't have any sources or quotes of Dean, or he may have stated that he supports the nuclear waste being dumped in Sierra Blanca and he doesn't want the site moved. All I am asking is give me a Dean quote, anything.

[wyldwolf]

65. You're speculating again..

..you're hoping this story doesn't have legs.

Dean may have knew about several proposed sites when he signed the deal, but you don't have to cancel the deal, you can urge Bush to move it somewhere else.

Did he? No indication that he did.

Wellstone didn't want the deal canceled, he wanted the approved site to be somewhere else.

Isn't that cancelling the deal? The deal was to put it at Sierra Blanca.

But what if Dean did urge Bush to move it

No indication

[VermontDem2004]

67. It is not speculation

No the deal was to dump nuclear waste in TEXAS, it was up to the Texas Legislature to vote on proposed sites. Cancelling the deal would be 'No, we are not going to dump waste in Texas anymore', they wanted to proposed site to be moved, but they deal would still be inact.

I am not speculating, I am asking for sources, he may have or he may not, I just what a source, quote, action or something. It is also speculation to say "he did nothing"

[TLM]

81. You really are ignorant of how this process works...

"Wellstone didn't want the deal canceled, he wanted the approved site to be somewhere else.

Isn't that cancelling the deal? The deal was to put it at Sierra Blanca."


No the Deal was to move waste and store it in a secure area. THat's the deal... where that storage site is located is determined by states submitting reports on safe storage sites and the federal government approving it.

Dean had no say over the site.

Dean had no say over the program as a whole.

[wyldwolf]

87. It is YOU who are ignorant...

Dean had no say over the site.

Sure he did. All he would have had to say was, "no."

Dean had no say over the program as a whole.

He was the Governor! He signed onto the measure!

[TLM]

112. Once again, cite a source...

Please cite a source to show Dean had any say in the Texas site selection process or that Dean could cancel this federal program.

All I see so far is you insisting this is the case, yet you can't seem to cite a single source to support this inane claim.

[TLM]

78. You really just have to assume the worst to attack Dean... best you've got

"Again, if Dean DID NOT KNOW it was Sierra Blanca until AFTER the deal was struck, why did he not cancel it when he found out?"

Dean was in no position to cancel this program, which was a federal program that had multiple states taking part.


"Remember, Congress was lobbied by Wellstone to prevent it. Not Dean."

Dean wasn't in congress.


"Dean either didn't know - and was ignorant and irresponsible for not knowing... or he DID know and was devious and a party to breaking laws. Either way, Dean looks bad."

Dean agreed to a federal program to relocate waste to safer sites. Bush and crew in texas lied about the site at siera blanca and offered it up as a safe place to store the waste. At that point there was no way for Dean to know the report on the safety was false.

And the idea that Dean, upon finding out later that folks in texas had lied, could cancel the federal program is plain ignorance.

You guys are desperate for anyhting to bash Dean, no matter how much you have to make up.

[jonnyblitz]

28. Interesting. I wonder what Clark would do. n/t

[wyldwolf]

31. Irrelavant. This is ALL DEAN!

[jonnyblitz]

44. NOT IRRELEVANT TO ME!! SORRY!! n/t

[wyldwolf]

58. Oh, I'm sorry...

It was ok that Dean did this because you are unsure if Clark would have done the same thing..

I wonder What Ghandi would have done. I wonder what Hitler would have done.

I wonder what John Kerry, Al Sharpton, John Edwards would have done.

Well, we KNOW what Howard Dean did!

[TLM]

82. We know how Clark feels about exposing people to radioactive waste...

in the form of depleted uranium rounds.


Tell me when did general Clark raise objections to the use of depleted uranium rounds?

After all he was a general who, unlike Dean, was actually in a position with enough authority to raise a stink about the use of DU rounds.

So what is Clark's position on shooting civilian population centers with highly radioactive material?

I mean if you are so on about Dean simply because he did not know that Bush and crew lied about the safety of the Sierra Blanca site, then clearly you must be 1000 times more upset with Clark for knowingly showing innocent people with depleted uranium?

[Uzybone]

99. Damn

why cant you just stay on topic. The question is about Dean not anyone else.

[TLM]

113. Funny, whenever Clark is questioned... clarkies attack Dean.

I'm simply a little curious about the double standard held by this particualr Dean basher.

They seem to hate Dean for being part of a federal program to move the waste from his state to another location overwhich Dean had no say.

Yet they have no problem with clark ordering the use of DU weapons.

[tsipple]

69. (Sigh.) The 12 Facts...

1. Nuclear waste sucks.
2. It exists.
3. It has to go somewhere.
4. Sierra Blanca handles low level nuclear waste.
5. It is safer (say the scientists) to store low level nuclear waste in a nuclear storage facility at Sierra Blanca than in, say, Vermont Yankee's parking lot.
6. It is more secure (say the anti-terrorism experts) to store nuclear waste in a dedicated facility with better protection.
7. President Clinton signed the law that put this policy in place.
8. The States of Texas, Vermont, and Maine all signed off.
9. Sierra Blanca is a Hispanic community.
10. It *is* arguably "environmental racism." (They didn't build the facility in Crawford, Texas, for example.) Poor and non-white people more often live next to nuclear waste storage facilities, oil refineries, garbage dumps, etc. (It's called being born on the wrong side of the tracks.) There's racism in America. (Although on that list I'll take the nuclear waste facility.)
11. Paul Wellstone didn't have any better idea.
12. Nuclear waste sucks. (Loop repeat.)

Note that mercury pollution from coal sucks, greenhouse gases from natural gas sucks, and birds running into windmill blades sucks. There is no such thing as impact-free energy production. And that sucks.

(On edit: Yes, I know Sierra Blanca isn't where it ended up. There was a safer place in Texas. No, it wasn't Crawford. :-))

[VermontDem2004]

70. They didn't dump it in Sierra Blanca

Wellstone did have a better idea and it was too move it which they did, they moved it to Andrews County which already dumped toxic waste there. Plus the site in Sierra Blanca was deemed unsafe so they were forced to move it.

[tsipple]

71. Andrews County Is 40% Hispanic

Hudspeth County (where Sierra Blanca is) is 75% Hispanic, but it's not like they moved the nuclear waste to Brentwood.

And would you bet that the neighborhood around both sites is probably about 100% Hispanic? :-( (I'm not sure how to look that up.)

[VermontDem2004]

84. They dumped the Nuclear Waste

in 1,300 acre lot in Andrews County which was already being used for toxic waste.

[blm]

73. Dean never bothered to check out WHERE the waste would be sent.

It's not so much action as his deliberate INACTION. He was prepared to give 26 million Vermont dollars to George Bush/Texas to dispose of waste without BOTHERING to check into the location himself?

Dean LOVED To travel and took every opportunity to travel while governor. Why didn't he bother to travel to the site and check Sierra Blanca out even with the natural curiosity of a doctor concerned with health risks?

[wyldwolf]

76. Dean was either purposely ignorant or purposely irresponsible

[TLM]

86. You attacks are either purposely ignorant or purposely irresponsible

You know that Dean did not have any say over the federal program or the site selection in Texas.


Dean had no way of knowing that texas had lied about the safety of sierra blanca.

Dean had no authority to cancel the program, as it was a federal program.

[gully]

77. Some info here...

Claims: Dean supported sending nuclear waste to a poor Hispanic Texas town.

Truth: As Vermont’s Governor, Dean supported getting nuclear waste out of his state into safer storage sites. The 1998 proposal of using Sierra Blanca, Texas as a repository was part of a compact, supported by Texas, Maine and Vermont, passed by Congress, and signed by President Clinton.

As President, Dean would work towards a non-political solution to the nuclear waste storage issue based on science and safety.

[Capn Sunshine]

80. That's the truth. They don't want that on this thread

after all railing on about a candidate not their own is what they enjoy most about DU.

[blm]

105. That is purposely vague on HIS role.

WHY didn't he personally check out WHERE he would be spending 26 MILLION dollars of Vernot taxpayers' money? Why didn't he use a doctor's curiosity to investigate the health concerns himself?

Too busy to travel? Vermont newspapers said he travelled TOO much.

Dean Defense Force has NO REAL ANSWERS.

[TLM]

83. That's because when Dean agreed to the program...

the storage site had not been selected.

Newsflash, BLM, Dean was gov of Vermont, not Texas. His authority ends at Vermont's state line.

He had no say over the site designation or the federal program mandating the waste be secured.

[blm]

106. You absolve him of all responsibility on this?

Fine...MANY do not.

[TLM]

115. You want to make Dean responsable for things overwhich he had no control.

then blame him for the results to prop up more baseless attacks and bashing.



I do not hold Dean responsible for Bush's actions in Texas... for the lies in the report saying Sierra Blanca was a safe spot... nor for the federal mandate that such waste be centralized and secured.

It was not a decision between dumping waste in Texas or magically turning the waste into gumdrops and lollypops. This was a hard decision that had to be made, and the waste had to be stored in the safest place.

The facility in Vermont was not enough to store the material safely.

Had Dean ignored this danger and insisted of storing the waste in Vermont, only to have the site leak and contaminate local water sources, I most certainly would hold him responsible for that.

However I don't consider him responsible for the crap that went on in Texas without Dean's knowledge, the site selection process in Texas, nor the existence of the waste in the first place.

Frankly I'm surprised you bashers are not flat out blaming Dean for the very existence of waste associated with nuclear power. In fact, why not just blame pollution in general on Dean, after all he should have done something to solve this whole problem back when he was a zygote, right?

[loyalsister]

98. This thread is a good argument

for moving all of it to...
Yucca Mountain. I have always had mixed feelings about that, however, I have heard from nuclear scientists that it is a better idea than what we have going today.
I'm sure, if I lived in NV I would have a different view, but I really wonder if it would be better to stop these arguments and the constant environmental racism that arises. (I seem to remember that the Greens were going to run someone against Wellstone because he was thinking along the same lines).

[seventhson]

102. The best deal is to CLOSE all the plants that produce the waste

But Dean's position was the BEST for the people of HIS state.

Right now there are literally hundreds if not thousands of nuclear waste dumps and sites potentially affecting and damaging each one of us and our children.

This problem is not an easy one to solve. But if you are the executive of a state that has to resolve this issue getting the waste OUT of the state is the best alternative you have.

This issue is a red herring.

The real question is whether or not Dean , Clark etc will SHUT THEM DOWN so we produce no more radioactive waste toxic to all future generations.

THAT issue needs to be addressed

If you want to know what the radiation pollution is doing to YOU and YOUR CHILDREN : go to Radiation.org

[loyalsister]

104. The problem is...

nuclear energy has become a useful alternative to the energy sources that are less available or more objectionable to consumers in the area of interest.
Some of our nuclear developments aren't all bad.
I might have had a few years shaved off of my life without the availability of xray capabilities. I know of many people who definitely would not be here without nuclear medicine.
Disposal is a huge problem, and I am really not sure what the best solutions, (apart from development of alternative energy resources and diagnostic medical capabilities and treatments), will be.

"But if you are the executive of a state that has to resolve this issue getting the waste OUT of the state is the best alternative you have."
And as a president a person will have to decide on a solution which will be least objectionable to the most number of states. It's an ugly scenario. It may be exactly why Dean currently supports the Yucca Mountain storage "solution."

[janekat]

103. Here's some links to a few sites that mention it.....

http://www.vermontindymedia.org/newswire/display/1422/index.php

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/howard-dean-questions.html

[haymaker]

107. Oh fucking please!

Ever heard of Yucca Mountain?

If some county wants to sell dump space for nukular waste that is their business.

The problem is nukular power, not Howard Dean. Get a grip. Talk about hysterics.

[JohnKleeb]

114. Vermontdem is a Dean supporter

IIRC and no offense to dean he supported Yucca mountain. I am just saying Vermont Dem is a Dean supporter. Hes asking a fair question.