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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:14 PM
Original message
Some religions don't have a prayer
August 8, 2005


Sheila Suess Kennedy
Some religions don't have a prayer


Issues of church and state can be difficult. Even people of tolerance and goodwill often disagree over the application of the First Amendment's religion clauses in this or that context, while people who are totally invested in particular religious doctrines routinely try to rewrite constitutional history in the fond belief that doing so will allow them to "correct" the religious views of others.

These disputes "go with the territory" of constitutional government in a country with a religiously diverse citizenry.

Every once in a while, however, we get a church-state conflict that seems truly bizarre. It is interesting how frequently such cases arise in the Great State of Texas, but I digress.

On May 18, the Texas state comptroller ruled that the Red River Unitarian Universalist Church was not a "religious organization" for tax purposes. The comptroller based her denial of tax-exempt status on the fact that "the church does not have one system of belief" and does not require belief in a deity.

The fact that Unitarianism isn't a "real" religion might have come as something of a shock to several of the nation's Unitarian founders, and to Unitarian presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams.

<snip>

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050808/OPINION/508080341/1002
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. That Texas comptroller lost that argument really quickly ..
for the United States Supreme Court had ruled otherwise.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Read the article, she's still fighting against other religions n/t
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Can't we transfer her to a remote island in the Pacific or something?
I'll read the article - but now that you've warned me - I'm probably not going to like it.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Step right up for the Jesus Rollercoaster
and after that, we burn the witches.

This is the old Helms amendment, come back to life.
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Actually Texas fought against the Wiccan religion
about ten years ago. I believe it had something to do with Wiccans from a military base. I forget now where i read or heard it, so I have no links.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Ft. Hood Texas and the military recognizing Wicca as a religion n/t
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That was at Fort Hood
Bob Barr tried to ban Pagan soldiers from holding rituals on military bases after one of the Dallas newspapers had an article about Pagans on Fort Hood. Here's Circle Sanctuary's coverage of it:

http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/report/barrwars.htm
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Barr was the quinessential horse;s ass..
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Damn, I didn't hear about that going on at Fort Hood...
I bet if I posted that to the GLBT Pagan group I'm in, there'd be a pretty big hubub.
BTW Chovexani, is that Mana from Malice Mizer as your icon? Just curious, hard to tell 'cause it's so small. :)
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Have mercy
That freak wants to be Governor. Texas just can't ever catch a break:
I am not a weak leadin’, ethics ignorin’, pointin’ the finger at everyone blamin’, special session callin’, public school slashin’, slush fund spendin’, toll road buildin’, special interest panderin’, rainy day fund raidin’, fee increasin’, no property tax cuttin’, promise breakin’, do-nothin’ Rick Perry phony conservative.

http://www.carolestrayhorn.com/speech.php
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. She really has a lot of nerve
But unfortunately faith-based nonsense is encouraging this.

Oh well, at least this will give me a chance to trot out one of my favorite Unitarian jokes:

Q: How do you scare a UU family out of the neighborhood?
A: Burn a question mark on their lawn.

:evilgrin:

(I kid UUs! I've been wanting to join CUUPS for a while but I don't think they have a chapter in NYC)
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. For the life of me I cannot figure out why CUUPS would not have a
chapter in NYC. Poughkeepsie of all places, but not NYC. I don't get it!

Q: So what do you get when you cross a UU and a Jehovah's Witness?

A: Someone who knocks on your door to find out what you believe!
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Oh I like that one.
:)

Yeah, I don't get it either. Especially considering there's so many Pagans around here. It's a shame, because I like the UU approach to spirituality and I'd like to explore it.
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. what do you get when you cross a UU with a mafiosa?
A proposition that you cannot understand.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. As a UU minister of course I'm incensed. May I share....(long)
Edited on Tue Aug-09-05 04:58 PM by Pacifist Patriot
a section of my dissertation?

The Unitarian Universalist Association created a marketing campaign proclaiming Unitarian Universalism as the “Uncommon Denomination.” Unitarian Universalism is technically both a denomination and a unique and distinct religion. The denotation of denomination includes “a religion” as a definition, but the contemporary connotation is of a divergent branch or a sect of a larger faith system so I believe it is misleading to refer to Unitarian Universalism as a denomination in casual conversation. Doing so often conveys the impression that Unitarian Universalism is an active denominational member of the Christian faith.

Both the Unitarians and the Universalists began as radical heretical sects of Christianity but the religion’s development over the last two centuries has resulted in an even greater divergence from mainstream Christianity. A handful of Unitarian Universalist congregations belong to the Council of Christian Churches within the Unitarian Universalist Association (CSCUUA) but most Unitarian Universalists do not consider themselves Christian in the conventional or traditional sense of the term. Even those who self-identify as Christian Unitarian Universalists tend to use phrases such as “I follow the teachings of Jesus rather than beliefs about Christ.” Overall, Unitarian Universalists generally have a “bottom up” approach to Christology emphasizing the humanity of Jesus of Nazareth. Such generalizations are problematic however as the religion itself is non-creedal and requires no statement of faith about Jesus or any other religious figure or doctrine. A trinitarian Christian is perfectly welcome to join a Unitarian Universalist congregation and any member congregation of the CXCUUA could take exception to my characterization of “typical Unitarian Universalist” beliefs.

The non-creedal nature of Unitarian Universalism is precisely why the religion is highly congruent with the psychological theories of Abraham Maslow, Viktor E. Frankl and Erich Fromm. This compatibility is evident in the principles of the Unitarian Universalist Association adopted in the mid 1980s—particularly the fourth on the list which includes the key words, “free,” “responsible” and “meaning.”

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote
· The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
· Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
· Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
· A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
· The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
· The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
· Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. (UUA 1985)

The individual “will to meaning” is implicit as well as the acknowledgment that community is indispensable to the process. Our creative and relational values are fully realized in a community that advocates acceptance despite differences, acknowledges the positive influence of following one’s conscience and espouses democratic rather than authoritarian processes. The individual is valued for his or her unique contributions to the community not for merely being an additional member.

Viktor Frankl’s perspective on religion is decidedly Occidental based on his assertion that “the goal of psychotherapy is to heal the soul, to make it healthy; the aim of religion is something essentially different—to save the soul.” (Frankl 1986, xxi) Buddhism, Taoism and tribal cults that worship the ancestor are examples of religions in which salvation of the soul is clearly not the aim. Unitarian Universalism is another. Some Unitarian Universalists may be concerned with salvation but that should be considered an individual goal as opposed to one connected with the entire faith and common to every Unitarian Universalist. The concept of salvation or a saving message can be interpreted in many different ways not necessarily in line with the Occidental myth of the fall of man necessitating the act of an external source saving mankind from the consequences of the fall.

The aim of Unitarian Universalism, if a unified aim can be identified for a religion with no creed, would seem to be closer to Frankl’s goal of psychotherapy—healing or maintaining a healthy soul. Erich Fromm touches upon this perspective as well. His concept of mental health “coincides essentially with the norms postulated by the great spiritual teachers of the human race. This coincidence appears to some modern psychologists to be a proof that our psychological premises are not ‘scientific’ but philosophic or religious ‘ideals.’…Ikhnaton, Moses, Confucious, Lao-tse, Buddha, Isaiah, Socrates, Jesus have postulated the same norms for human life, with only small and insignificant differences.” (Fromm 1967, 68-69)

Both adherents and critics have claimed Unitarian Universalism is not a religion. This perspective is not surprising in a society more familiar with the concept of religion requiring a theology and creed to which all adherents must agree in order to be considered members. A community that allows its members to establish their own religious beliefs is a puzzling type of community in our historical experience. “Some people have said that Unitarian Universalism is not a religion, but rather, that it is a way of being religious. An open-minded, open-hearted way of being faithful to what matters most in life.” (Lynch 2004) I believe this is a meaningless grammatical construction. If Unitarian Universalism provides its members with a way of being religious and faithful to what matters most in life in the context of an encouraging community, than the fact that individual Unitarian Universalists have unique ways of accomplishing this goal is immaterial. The decision to act communally renders the denomination a religion as it is a community focused on following spiritual paths, albeit diverse ones.

Unitarian Universalism claims a living tradition that draws from many sources.
· Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
· Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
· Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
· Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
· Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
· Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature. (UUA, 1985)

This list directly echoes Fromm’s observation and affirms Unitarian Universalism as a religion—a religion with a fascinating history and a promising future.

She can kiss my ass! Oh, I'm sorry. Was that not religious enough?

ETA: Dissertation is in proofing stage. Forgive any typos or grammatical errors please.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Very interesting!
I've been fascinated by UUism ever since I took that Beliefnet quiz and I got it as a close second to Neopaganism.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. LOL! I scored 99% UU and 98% neopagan.
One time.

Then another I scored 99% neopagan and 97% UU.

Just proof our personal beliefs change as much as the universe does!
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. Would Zen Buddhism be any different?
If everyone believed that they might wake up at any instant in life,
and that awakening is the single most valuable commodity right now,
are there any beliefs?

If there are no beliefs, there must be no religion. No religion means
no protection by the laws, and the end of legal protection for zen
buddhism.

Perhaps one hand clapping is the sound of the buddha laughing.

:-)


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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. if you meet buddha on the road, kill him.
All is impermanent; All is without a self.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. "If you meet the buddha on the road, awaken."
In the violent west, the phrase you quote, IMO, leads to misinterpretation.

If you are enlightened awareness, pure awakened bodhi without self,
how could you meet an "other" buddha on the road? That awakening
knows no "other" as all is a unity. In that sense, if you meet
an "other" buddha on the road, awaken.

To "kill him" implies engaging in duality, trying to destroy this
other self, so that there be no self... dramatic perhaps, but missing
that the awakening to no self is not something that can be done
or achieved, rather awakened to.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. This happened in 2004 & the Comptroller reversed her decision.
http://answers.org/news/article.php?story=20040527183054525&mode=print

Although she probably did it for the wrong reasons.
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GeorgeBushytail Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Strayhorn is running for TX guv
http://www.carolestrayhorn.com/

And here's her email:
carole@carolestrayhorn.com



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GeorgeBushytail Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. Boy Scouts won't let UU members wear their UU badge
Because UU doesn't consign gays to Hell.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. A Boy Scout Troop used to meet in my old UU church but
the church kicked them out when the Boy Scouts came out against gays. There was a lot of discussion in the church--it wasn't the boys' fault Boy Scouts of America was homophobic--but in the end we figured we couldn't condone a homophobic organization by letting them use our space. The Girl Scouts, however, still meet there.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. The problem was when the BSA retaliated against a letter
sent by the UUA. The UUA issued a formal statement condemning their discrimination against homosexual troop leaders. The BSA responded by removing UUism as eligible for their religion badge.

I've faced the dilemma too. My son has quite a few friends in scouting, and at times asks to join, but I cannot in good conscience associate with such an organization.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Wow. Just wow.
I didn't know that!

The Girl Scouts supposedly just don't ask about a leader's sexual orientation.

I don't know. I will not permit my daughter to participate in Girl Scouts - until they show me a commitment to diversity, affirmation, and non-discrimination.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Hi Maat! I think the Girl Scouts are fine as an organization.
I just did a search on their web site and found nothing at all under "homosexual" or "homosexuality" and only a single reference for "gay" or "lesbian" in "A Report from the GIRL SCOUT RESEARCH INSTITUTE executive summary the ten emerging new directions for girls 11–17."

There, the only mention is in the end notes, under "Additional Resources," is a recommendation to read a Human Rights Watch report entitled "Hatred in the Hallways: Violence and Discrimination Against Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Students in US Schools."

Contrast that with the BS of America page which gave me 5 hits under "homosexual" all of which state clearly that they believe homosexuals cannot "serve as a role model for traditional moral values." :eyes:

The difference between the two groups is surely drawn from their history. The BS were originally organized to train little boy to be better prepared to join and support the military when they grew up. The GS was started to empower girls to move beyond the traditional exclusive roles of motherhood and household management. In other words, I believe the GSs are more open to societally marginalized peoples (lesbians, in this discussion) because the organization itself grew out of the the struggle to cease the marginalization of women.

That being said, there's a new kids organization being formed called "Navigators" (not be confused with the ultra-right Christian organization, The Navigators). I heard about them at the last UU gen'l assembly. It's barely up and running, but you could still check it out at www.navigatorsusa.org.

Always nice to talk with you, Maat! :hi:
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Always nice to talk to you, Intheflow.
Thanks for the info.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. We have a homeschool Girl Scout troop meet at our UU church.
Some of the moms have both boys and girls. They absolutely forbid involvement in the BSA but are enthusiastic supporters of the GSA. I don't have any girls so it's a non-issue with me.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Yes, I think my son must have been one of the last
to get a religion badge for UU in the Boy Scouts. He was in third grade when the whole BS thing blew up and I withdrew him from the organization.

In the end, he got the same skill set I thought Scouting would give him through the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. I wanted him to learn how to work well with others--at the B&G Club he played baseball and joined the swim team. I wanted him to have a variety of good adult role models--at the B&G he had this crazy but smart former ex-marine art teacher (who was also the baseball coach) and a tough but fair lesbian swim coach. I wanted him to have fun with other kids his age--at the B&G he learned how to interact not only with other boys his age (as in a Scout troop), but with boys and girls of all ages.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
26. Clearly, It Is time For Unitarian Jihad
Edited on Tue Aug-09-05 11:17 PM by The Magistrate
She will know differently when the Question Mark flames high on her front lawn....

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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
30. But if they play with snakes and flop around on the floor gibbering....
...and frothing at the mouth then they're a "Real" religion....

Wonder how the Comptroller feels about the "Peyote Church"?
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Well if creed is her sticking point.
Sounds like you could make anything up and as long as people are required to swear allegiance you're good to go. :sarcasm:
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