Because it is my curse to have no emotions....

[theboss]

I am not an emotional person. In my family, I have become the go-to person to deliver eulogies because a) I can write them surprisingly well and b) I won't cry when delivering them.

I'm also a fiercely logical person. In everything except sports, I don't let feelings or emotion get in the way. (I will never forgive Neil O'Donnell, however. Never. Never. Never. Never).

I also have no interest in any publicity stunt that does not involve dropping turkeys out of a helicopter.

So...that leads me to the Sheehan business.

Here are my questions - stripped totally from emotion and partisanship.

1. What is the point? If it is just to bring attention to the war, that's one thing. But, I'm not sure it's going to persuade anyone to demand a pull-out in Iraq. It could, I suppose.

2. If she meets Bush, what does she expect to accomplish?

I am trying to picture this conversation in my head:

S: "Hello, Mr. President."
B: "Hello, Ma'am. Pleasure to meet you."
S: "Yes, sir. As you may know, my son died in Iraq."
B: "Yes, I do know. I am terribly sorry for your loss, but you should be proud of your son. He's a hero."
S: "You may think so, but I don't want any more mothers to suffer. Please bring the rest of our troops home."
B: "I'm not going to do that. Have a nice day."

Unless, you think that George W. Bush's heart is going to grow three sizes during this conversation, I again have no idea what this is going to accomplish.

3. What if the situations were reversed?

If some Rush Limbaugh listener lost a son in Kosovo and hand planted himself outside of Steven Spielberg's estate during one of Clinton's visits, would we be demanding that Clinton have coffee with him in order to be dressed down? I wouldn't. I don't think every American has the right for a private meeting with the President to express a grievance. I live twenty minutes from the White House and have never been invited over...even when Clinton lived there.

Finally, everyone on this site gets up in arms every time FoxNews puts on a story about a shark attack, a missing blonde girl, or a celebrity murdering/molesting someone. It's a distraction, we say.

To me, this is the political version of such a story. A mother's grief is very real and very personal. But it is being exploited - even if this case she is the one doing the exploitation.

I don't see where this leads us. I don't see how it helps us in 2006. I don't see how it leads to an end to the nonsense in Iraq. I don't see how it ends the Patriot Act. I don't see how it leads to Voting Reform.

I look forward to being told how wrong I am. Perhaps, I am. Perhaps, I am missing something.

[ohio_liberal]

1. One question

What did Neil O'Donnell do?

[SonofMass]

24. He threw an interception that allowed the Cowboys to win

Super Bowl XXX. The Steelers dominated the second half but he trew three interceptions and it looked like he was afraid to be hit.

[lildreamer316]

2. It is PRECISELY because of the emotions

Of course if we looked at this logically it would be crazy. However, she is beating them at their own game EMOTIONALLY. Bush & etc. have played upon our fears to get us into this and now she is taking the battle to them in a language all can understand. Evidently this is the kind of appeal needed to get people to wake up
Facts haven't changed minds yet. This may.

[lildreamer316]

8. So actually

If you size it up from your viewpoint; the best strategy LOGICALLY is to use the emotional pull; get it??

[sendero]

106. Exactly...

... the entire Republican strength is playing our emotions. From Jessica Lynch, to the toppling of the statue, to 9-11 itself, their whole game plan involves using symbols to elicit emotion.

That sort of stuff might not work on the OP, but it works just fine on the American public at large.

I agree with the OP in that there is nothing practical to be accomplished here, I basically had the same thoughts. But I won't reach the conclusion that it's "wrong" to manipulate emotions via symbols because if we don't learn to do it we're toast.

I also think Ms. Sheehan knows exactly what she is doing, and I hope more people follow her lead.

And finally, really finally :) - why did Hackett do so well? He tapped into the growing feeling that our CIC is a stupid asshole with no clue what he is doing. Every Dem that does that is going to add 10-15% to their polling. It's all emotion.

[quiet.american]

3. For one, it gives the Bush "real man" image a serious black-eye--

-- and that's worth more than its weight in gold in terms of exposing Bush, even to his own supporters, as all-hat, no cattle.

[libertypirate]

4. I have ADD what is your excuse for not listening to what Cindi

is saying?

I still got it you don't....

The other day the president said their sacrifice is worth it, she wants to know why and so do I.

Mr. President put up or go to jail.

[Placebo]

5. Big difference between Kosovo & Iraq.

We didn't lost any soldiers in Kosovo. And it was a just military action.

Now to Iraq.

aka Vietnam Deux

Night and day, friend.

Night and day.

[theboss]

7. I know they are different wars

Fine...if some mother had lost a son at D-Day and wanted to meet FDR...what would the argument be?

[Placebo]

9. D-Day > Iraq

Try, if someone had lost their son or daughter in Vietnam would they have had the right to demand an audience with President Johnson or Nixon. I think they would.

[theboss]

15. Didn't she already meet Bush though?

I hate to use Drudge as a source, but does every parent have the right to multiple meetings with the president? Wouldn't that be his only job after a while?

[Placebo]

23. As long as men and women are dying for no reason in Iraq...

Bush should be forced to deal with that fact on a daily basis.

It's not like he's spending precious time worrying about how to fix our sputtering economy. And while they're dying he's spending time in his mansion that we never see "down on the ranch" in Texas.

[Kurovski]

55. It was before the proof that he lied came out (DSM)

Actually, the fact that she is stepping out of the bounds of "reasonableness" is the reason why she has captured our imagination.

Of course no one expects the administration to answer separate inquiries from families. But the very fact that no one really does it and yet this one woman has gone ahead and done it, is exactly why it will actually work.

Many families will rally behind her for her courage in asking that which they themselves would like to ask.

She has become a representative for those of us who want to hear why they lied to us about the war.

She represents us in a way that our elected representatives have not, or can not represent us.

She is a representative for the questions, thoughts and feelings that millions have had in this country and that this secretive administration, up until now, has been able to manage with PR control of the message.

[Eloriel]

56. Yeah, she met with him -- and here's what she had to say about it

Report from Cindy - Day 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4295643
Link: http://mwc.mayfirst.org/?q=node/53

[Kurovski]

59. I think that meeting disturbed her enough to have

given her second thoughts as well.

That is another point to consider, theboss.

[Just Me]

70. Kindly explain why you choose to diminish her courage, her passion,...

,...her stand for the truth, for accountability?

[AuntiBush]

76. FDR Answered MANY Letters from all the Families!

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/

[evermind]

6. It could be a significant rallying point. And she might annoy Bush so

much he bursts a blood vessel (I've heard he's not usually brought into contact with dissent...)

[seabeyond]

10. i agree with all you say. i have thought of this last couple days, but

this isnt my quest in speaking with bush, it is sheehans. she and her son were lied to war and particpated in bush's war. he died. the difference, clinton didnt take us to war in a lie, so that whole eliment isnt there. also we are sittin in iraq with more soldiers dying and bush shows no evidence of being able to do anything about it one way or another. another different circumctance than clinton's kosvo

there is a difference,

[Avalux]

11. This is about truth.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead.

It's just a quote, but it means a lot to me. I won't tell you you're wrong and I won't try to change your mind. Think about it though.

We were lied to - over and over and over. Cindy Sheehan is one person who wants an answer. This is much bigger than just her though - she very well could be the catalyst to make people think. I feel her cause is worth our support.

[Just Me]

57. Yep. She is bringing attention to the lies and demanding the truth.

With or without "emotions", her cause impacts EVERY American citizen who deserves the truth from their representatives ESPECIALLY when it comes to committing our blood and treasure to a war that profits certain folks.

[atreides1]

12. Perhaps

You're a Vulcan.

But seriously, by lacking emotions as you say you do, I can't explain it to you, maybe someone else can.

So ending the nonsense in Iraq, repealing the Patriot Act, or getting
voting reform, would in essence mean nothing to you, because they too
are actions that require the passion that a person with emotions has.

It's too bad that you cannot see beyond the logic, but if that is your way then more power to you.

[Richardo]

13. You are missing something. This is not about 'solutions'. It's symbolism.

It will not accomplish anything in the way of policy change or altered behaviors. All it does is crack through the previously impenetrable veneer of approval Bush has (until recently) enjoyed from the MSM and his lackeys in the RW media.

He enjoyed an extended honeymoon period thanks to 9/11 and his choice to make war in Iraq - a honeymoon far beyond that of any other President.

The 2004 campaign opened the door of criticism - but everyone expects that during a campaign.

I figure he's now dealing with the pent-up pressure of the last 4+ years when very little criticism saw the light of day. I don't think things would be nearly so volatile right now if he had just allowed a little criticism - fairness, if you will.

[evermind]

27. Exactly - well put! (nt)

[MGKrebs]

14. I'm having problems with this too, Bossman.

Not a big deal, just something doesn't feel right.

Perhaps it's like the sit-ins of the 60's. Or the Childrens Crusade in Birmingham in 1963. Awareness, attention, build momentum, get arrested! See where it goes, don't let it fade away.

[theboss]

22. It doesn't strike me as comparable to a sit-in

I can see how that would be an analogy.

But that was a case of one group of people demanding a right that another group of people has. I don't have the right to meet the president any time, I want. No one does.

Maybe if that was the cause, it would make more sense.

I do think we need to expose the unaccountability of this president; he obviously feels like he only represents those who voted for him. But I'm still not sure this is the method to do it.

[MGKrebs]

30. I don't think she really expects to meet the Prez.

Or have him agree to withdraw troops immediately either. I think this is an activist trying to find a way to draw attention to her cause, which is the same cause a lot of us have. Whether it will be productive or not, I don't know. But arresting her would sure be interesting.

The more I think about this, the better I feel about it. Maybe I better go write that letter for the Activist Corps now!

[AuntieM1957]

88. How much longer do we sit around cogitating?

what's your non-emotive timeline for creative dissent?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

96. It may be true that no single individual has the right to

demand a meeting with the President.

However, the fact is that this administration has been so totally unaccountable for any and all actions and statements.

His administration is draped in secrecy and lies, and those are only the ones we know about.

He is President, he is an elected official. He works for us or such is the theory.

So while no one person has a right to see the President, SOMEBODY in this nation has some rights aside from them.

That is who Cindy represents. All of us who have felt disenfranchised, who have felt dragged into war we didn't want, who have felt elections stolen, who have finally come to know there isn't anything the government says any longer that we can believe without question and call ourselves rational, sane, citizens of a Democracy.

I don't want the best Democracy money can buy.

I want the best Democracy money can not buy.

[tavalon]

99. You're his employer

Now, aside from what I said earlier (that being that this has nothing at all to do with GWB), you have a right to be heard by your employee. Period.

This technique worked beyond well for Ghandi and as they say, there really is nothing new under the sun. This has already worked better than a million think tankers ever could have imagined and it is set to just keep building momentum with the public.

This woman stumbled upon the thing that may just take this administration down. Mayhaps, mayhaps not. But, it is a beauty to behold nonetheless.

[sweetheart]

16. "check"

It is "check" in chess. Cindy Sheehan has the capability in her hands
to take this president down, and he is going to use his pawns to avoid
her "check". Check is almost always good in chess, not for the person
being checked. It raises the fear of the end, and how quickly it will
come when the whole thing falls apart.

Cindy Sheehan is walking point for 300 million americans, and as long as
he stays checked, the better. Checkmate is later. Check happens first.

[theboss]

25. Do you really think she is going to take her down?

That can only happen if she changes a hell of a lot of minds.

This strikes me more of a Abby Hoffman move than a Martin Luther King, Jr. move.

[sweetheart]

40. This could be the end of bush's presidency 40% going down

She sticks him to iraq in the way he is least exposed.
The republicans will do anything to avoid this move, so she may be
blocked by another piece.
The move that they will make now is forced.
If the player cannot block "check", it becomes checkmate.

Her story of personal loss, and her american blood, is a more powerful
media story than anything that bush has ever done in his entire life.
He has a lot to fear from Cindy, because, up close, he will see
in her eyes the end of himself and his republicans.

The cowards always back away from strength. Look to him to leave
crawford to slink away in to a bunker somewhere. .. or them to attempt
major media distraction using something irrelevant about hats.

Martin Luther King was checkmated, so he's not a very useful example.
Cindy is more powerful, the more regular she is. Not by being some
great heroic woman, but by being a mother who loved her baby and
who brought her baby up to defend her country... regular woman,
* P O W E R F U L *

They are afraid. Plame, and now this... things are not going well.
The more pieces check, the faster it will end. They are no longer
dictating the adgenda, it is being dictated to them from their
mistakes, and the moves of their opposition.

[glitch]

58. Well stated sweetheart. She has turned it around: attacking his "strength"

But it's her honest depth reality versus their shallow lying pathology that makes this action heroic, rather than a stunt.

Heroic and Logic tend not to mix.

[tavalon]

102. I love your analogy all the more when it's fleshed out

I do pray that Cindy is not sacrificed in the game. She doesn't deserve it and neither does the rest of her family. That said, neither did Martin Luther.

[tavalon]

101. I know I'm repeating myself but to me

it's a Ghandi move. And look what he did.

No, I don't think she will single handedly take him down. But this is a huge blow. Hell, it looks like it will be the women who take them down this time. No Woodward and Bernsteins this time. This time it's Sheehan and Plame.

Actually, it's death by a thousand cuts but this one is a deep thrust.

[tavalon]

100. Yep, perfect analogy

This isn't checkmate but damn, it's a mighty fine check and a brilliant move.

[Walt Starr]

17. You're missing an important tree for the forest

Cindy Sheehan did not quesiton Bush when they met in 2004.

The Downing Street Minutes did not see the light of day until 2005.

The point is, Bush needs to answer the questions raised by the revelations found within the Downing Street Minutes.

[Literate Tar Heel]

18. it's not so much Sheehan herself

it's that she's rapidly becoming symbolic of all who have lost a loved on in this ill-advised and illegal war ... if he blows her off, it is tatamount in a way to blowing off a huge section of rural and poor and lower-middle class America, which is where a disproportionate number of our soldiers come from (and also a disproportionate number of Bush's supporters, at least in the South) ... it's becoming a no-win situation for Bush and the administration much more quickly than they anticipated, I'm sure (I would imagine that in their arrogance, they assumed the story would go away quietly until the last few days)

[theboss]

32. Are other families rallying to her side?

If she is the voice for a silent majority of military families, then I agree that is a hugely important moment.

If she is one voice crying in the wilderness, it will be a quickly forgotten publicity stunt.

[Literate Tar Heel]

39. well, those are contradictory phrases

if families are rallying to her side, then they're no longer a "silent" majority ... I think the point is that there is a silent majority (or at least very strong minority) of military families who simply haven't had been heard for a variety of reasons (how many poor struggling military widows are going to have the resources to follow Bush around the country trying to be heard? especially considering the breadwinner of the family has in many cases been killed in the war) ... Sheehan herself is only one person, you're right, but if she represents the tip of the iceberg and the Bush administration is the Titanic...

[gratuitous]

19. Sometimes making the effort is enough

What did Gandhi actually accomplish with all those people clogging the temple road, or walking to sea to dump a spoonful of salt? What did those marchers on the Edmund Pettis bridge actually do as they were getting beaten down by the thugs with their sticks and bats? Did lunch counters immediately throw open the doors to everyone when a bunch of people sat down where they weren't allowed to sit? There was a lot more room and the buses ran their routes a lot faster in Montgomery after the likes of Rosa Parks and her friends quit riding.

[NYCGirl]

20. I've pondered your #2 question myself. I don't understand (other than

the symbolism of it), what Ms. Sheehan hopes to accomplish. I admire her guts, though.

[shadowknows69]

21. A WKRP reference YAY

"I also have no interest in any publicity stunt that does not involve dropping turkeys out of a helicopter."

As God is my witness I thought turkeys could fly.

[tavalon]

103. I know

that one did make me smile.

As God is my witness..........

Man, that cracks me up even after all these years.

[shadowknows69]

105. If you've never been in the radio business

believe me it can almost get that weird sometimes. the receptionists are never as hot though.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. she, like a few others, many of them

families of the 11th, and the brother of the football player who was killed by friendly fire-

is holding bush accountable-

and doing it in a way that he can't say is partisan politics, and i honestly believe, she feels such grief that she cannot be threatened with anything that could cause her any greater loss than she's already experienced.

What does she hope to gain? i believe she hopes to get an honest answer as to why the HELL we don't admit this was an enormous mistake, and stop any future killing- Perhaps she hopes to put a 'human' 'average jane' face on this- perhaps she CAN'T play the 'denial' game of 'he died for a great cause'

He died because people lied- and not enough people cared to stop this mess from happening- and not enough people are being 'touched' where it truly hurts, to stop this fiasco-

the hell with 2006-

how many Casey's will have to die for NOTHING until the 'promise' of any change 2006-

This is the 'uniter' the guy with the 'hard job' of 'comforting the families' (sorry, only one comfort per family mam, and no return policy is firm) this is the guy that is terrorizing the world, including and especially the american public-

and i'm fully human, emotional, and sometimes lucid enough to speak the truth even if it does come out stumbling, and with poor grammar and spelling-

there are too many whose lives won't be here in 2006, if we can't stop this mad-man.

[hippiegranny]

64. you are very lucid

and I am with you all the way, Bluer.

[trekbiker]

71. Excellent... you are 10 times more "lucid" than me...

[firefox]

28. It is as good as a million marching on Washington

One thing it does is give something to amplify. She is using plain talk to say that Bu$h's War is wrong, that Bu$h should be impeached, and that the US is imperialistic. It is more than anyone one in Congress is willing to say and it is all true and heart-felt.

Keyword:amplification - She is saying what almost everyone would say if they were anywhere near educated or could escape the echo chamber of the media, think tanks, and politicians. She is our voice and to the best of our ability we should amplify it.

Maybe she is like the irritant that forms the pearl in the oyster. It gives us a place to start and something to attach to. There is an importance to what it shows us or what it illuminates. What politicians are in support of her and who will not touch it? What media covers it and who ignores it? Who refutes that the war was illegal, that Bush should be impeached, and we are an imperialistic power?

I have no representatives in Congress or the Executive branch that speak honestly toward these big statements the way Cindy Sheehan represents my views. I am for a real assessment and not a projection of fantasy that the government does so well.

I guess you could say Cindy Sheehan speaks for me as well as reality.

So lets have a trial in the Senate and see if Bu$h is a war criminal. Oh no, the fascists in government cannot handle the truth.

If you want a factual perspective, you have to include that her goals are also to work for ending Bu$h's War and his impeachment. I do not know anyone that is doing more for than that effort. Your premise is wrong to limiting to a goal of speaking with WarCriminal. That is all but irrelevant.

[bananas]

29. Factual counter-example: "Freedom Fries" Jones

You said, "Unless, you think that George W. Bush's heart is going to grow three sizes during this conversation, I again have no idea what this is going to accomplish."

Well, that's exactly what happened to "Freedom Fries" Jones.
So, if you're as logical as you say you are,
you must now know understand what the point is.

Winning hearts and minds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4086380.stm

'Freedom fries' lawmaker's U-turn

A pro-Iraq war US congressman who campaigned for French fries to be renamed "freedom fries" is now calling for US troops to return home from Iraq.
...
He said his change of heart about the war came after he attended the funeral of a US sergeant killed in Nasiriya, Iraq, in April 2003. Mr Jones said he was moved by the soldier's widow who read out her husband's last letter.

"And that really has been on my mind and my heart ever since," he said.
...

[AverageJoe]

31. Ghandi, King, Sheehan

Cindy Sheehan is engaging in what more or less amounts to civil disobedience, particularly if she is arrested on Thursday.

She is exhibiting the same personal qualities and the same behavior as did Ghandi and Dr. King. Ghandi ended British colonial rule in India. Dr. King made enormous strides in American civil rights.

This war was/is based on lies. Cindy has the moral authority to confront those lies. By refusing to meet with her, * is showing himself to be a coward. Cindy Sheehan has the potential to change the world. I kid you not.

[KyndCulture]

33. Nope still missing the whole point here...

Bush is an elected official and as such he is damn well accountable to WE THE PEOPLE for his actions. Ms. Sheehan is simply holding him to his job. He's lied about the war to the people, he's lied to cover up his lies about the war to we the people and she wishes to hold him accountable.

That's the reason. No emotions involved here. Very logical, it is her RIGHT as a citizen to hold an elected official accountable for his actions, just as it is your right and my right.

[Solly Mack]

34. How tragic! To live without knowing joy

How sterile and cold to be unable to express love and affection.


To never know passion...which isn't the least bit logical.


But maybe your inability to feel only involves certain kinds of emotions?

[Fleshdancer]

35. She pays his salary with her taxes. She pays for his war with her son.

A key component in this situation is the Downing Street Memo. There's a clear indication that he lied to get us into this war and if anyone deserves to hold him accountable, it's a mother of a dead soldier.

The MSM no longer demands answers so now it's up to individual Americans. People from all over the country have written letters, emails, and made phone calls demanding the answers to the very questions she wants to ask. The only difference between us and her is that she found a successful way of getting noticed by television crews. She's our voice now.

[KyndCulture]

38. Exactly. Every citizen has the right in this democracy ...

to hold an elected official accountable for his actions and inactions in the office he holds. He is accountable to those who pay his salary. US, we the people, we the taxpayers. He's not a king he's just as much an elected official as my neighbor down the street on the school board. We have that right in this country. The right of accountability.

[Jersey Devil]

36. Your lack of emotion is why you cannot understand it

The emotional reaction to a mother grieving over her son is something that people can connect to almost universally at an emotional level.

People vote with their hearts much more than they do with their heads. That old story about Bush being a guy you might want to have a beer with probably got him elected.

[Ladyhawk]

37. Thanks for putting into words what I was feeling.

I was ready to support Cindy and those who go to Texas if they thought it was important, but my brain was in the background asking these questions. You put them forth better than I could. Now I want to hear what the others have to say to help me understand why they think it is very important.

This is not to say that I don't care about Cindy or her grief. I really do. But there are moms who grieve on the other side of this issue and some DUers were saying they wouldn't feel sorry for them...WTF? That's cold.

[Jersey Devil]

43. There are many Vulcans among us

Live long and prosper!

[mondo joe]

51. As one Vulcan to another: what matters is understanding how

emotion plays even when you don't feel it yourself.

Ms. Sheehan is doing a valuable service by giving a face and a heart to the very thing Bushco tries to keep buried: the cost of this war.

Remember, Bushco wants to hide the coffins and funerals. Ms. Sheehan is one upping him.

[Jersey Devil]

53. I agree wholeheartedly

Bush started this entire war on emotion - fear of WMD. But the fear of losing a child trumps it. Every parent of a young person today knows the military is short handed and a draft could be just around the corner. I have a 19 year old son. There is no f**king way Bush is going to get his hands on him.

[Ladyhawk]

65. However, I am a very emotional Vulcan. Yes, that's an oxymoron. :D

Even though I am extremely sensitive and emotional, I am also analytical and logical. It's a weird combination and it feels rather odd. Is there something wrong with me? :)

I really do feel for Cindy, but I also feel for those "across the aisle" who have lost loved ones and still support the war. I think they are deceiving themselves, yes, but I don't feel any less for them. All the right has to do to counter this move is find an "anti-Cindy." It shouldn't be that hard and if we attack her, we are no better than those who are smearing Cindy.

[AuntieM1957]

81. It's not about whether we should all go to Crawford

it's about drawing the media's eye there.

Go, don't go. Doesn't matter. Follow your own conscience on whether to send her money, write letters, etc.

What matters is that Joe and Jane American see Cindy and the other moms there. They think - you know, my friend from work lost her son. He only went into the military to get an education and now he's dead.

They start to wonder why we're there still. What's it all about?

Up to now, Bush & Co have been hiding the bodies LITERALLY. The MSM has so let him off the hook.

If you need a reason, consider this. She has been in MSM broadcast news in HOUSTON TEXAS for two days. This during Space City's first shuttle mission in 3 years.

She's got their attention. It's really not about changing Bush's mind. It's about waking up the middle Americans.

[tavalon]

104. I read one of those threads

and I agree, that is cold. Unfortunately, even some DUers can be cold sometimes. It is the way of humans to be giving and withholding, warm and cold, loving and hateful and so on.

Read what I said to theboss about what I think this is about and why I think it is inspired and brilliant. The greatest part about it is I truly believe that Cindy had none of these reasons in her head when she went. If she had, this wouldn't be anywhere near as effective as it is.

[Midlodemocrat]

41. I think her going to Crawford is evidence to the media

that the people in America are now questioning why we are in Iraq. It is impossible to overlook this story. She is a grieving mother who is trying to confront the man who sent her son into a situation he himself was unwilling to do. He is a coward. His policy in Iraq, if you can call it that, has killed thousands of people and left many more thousands injured. Her calling him on it gives the BFEE a black eye about their foreign affairs policies.

Her question about the 'noble cause' is very just. If * thinks it is so noble, why aren't the twins serving?

[WMliberal]

92. I agree. I think the OP's blah-zay attitude has a lot to do with being a

DUer and consequently more up and up on Iraq war opposition than the average citizen.

To us, nothing she does or says is new at all.
What's big about this is it might be the first thing that sticks with the public at large and the MSM. Before now, nothing about this clusterfuck would stick. Not Kerry, not Moore, not Moveon.org, not Air America, no one could get it to stick last year. All the majority of people could see was the "Gay" "terrorist" tunnel-vision.
In six months or a year, we could be looking back at this point as when the anti-war movement got BIG.

[eleny]

42. She's been repeating her message over and over and over

All you need to do is listen to one of her interviews. For instance, the one Randi did with her today during Randi's program. All her points were clear. There is no nuance. All you have to do is listen to her. She's as clear as a bell.

[thereismore]

44. Emotions are human. My response to Cindy is half emotional.

I guess if you miss that, you are left with just the other half.

On the other hand, I cannot share your anger over O'Donnell. To me, it doesn't amount to a bowl of beans. We are al different.

[Extend a Hand]

45. here's what I think

1. The point is to expose the lies that were used to justify an illegal war that has caused the needless loss of our soldiers and iraqi civilians. It may or may not work; I sure hope that it does.

2. If I had lost my child I would d*mn sure try to expose the lies of the criminal that killed my child. The act of confonting the prepetrator of a crime helps bring closure to the victim. This kind of confrontation is not about the criminal its about closure for the victim.

3. The situation that you describe isn't at all a reversal of the circumstances. And if Bill Clinton had been accused of wrongfully causing the death of an adversaries loved one, he was the king of empathy; he would have understood the personal loss. I believe he would have made an effort to understand the other persons point of view and find a way to offer comfort.

[Cleita]

46. Mass murderers who somehow fall outside of the law

for indictment, trial and sentencing like Mr. Bush, cannot be allowed to lead a charmed life. Why should he have a trouble free vacation while young men and women are suffering and dying in his misbegotten war? While veterans suffer from cuts in benefits? While military families are amongst the poor and homeless? I hope he has protesters following him wherever he goes until he is no longer in office. I will do my best to be one of them in whatever way I can.

When Cindy Sheehan is no longer able to persue this, there should be other reasons and other people to demand accountability from him. He should wake up each morning from now on with fear on his mind and the question, "Who or what will ruin my day today?"

He should never be able to sit back and relax with a football game without the nagging doubts in the back of his mind that he is very guilty of war crimes. Being hot on his trail no matter where he goes will keep these things that he wants to ignore and forget in the forefront, unignorable and unforgetable.

[mcar]

47. Why Steven Spielberg?

Cindy Sheehan is trying to see the POTUS at HIS house. Why bring a Hollywood celebrity into this equation?

Why did supporters of Civil Rights stage sit-ins in restaurants, colleges, etc. in the 60s?

She has a right to see the man whose salary we pay. Period.

[theboss]

49. Clinton didn't have a house

He took his vacations at friends' houses. I know he used one of Spielberg's places a few times.

[mondo joe]

48. I think the point was buried in your post: to bring attention to the

war. AND to the losses.

Bushco has managed to run a sanitized war - no funerals, no coffins, no grieving families.

Ms. Sheehan can make a big dent in that by connecting at - yes - an emotional level to other parents and people in general.

If that's not enough to convice you, ask yourself this: if it's pointless, why does Bush REFUSE to meet her?

Talk about being enemotional - if Bushco refuses to do this it's because it harms them. It's that simple.

[Kurovski]

50. Because everyone understands emotion.

Not everyone has waded through the PNAC, or spent hours upon weeks upon months reading books and articles about the war.

Most do not have the time.

But most now know something is terribly wrong in Iraq.

This is how it is always done.

Emotion is how the Right-wing brought elections in close enough to steal.

Keep the message simple and attach it to the strongest emotions possible.

The fact that Bush would not meet with a woman who lost her son will resonate more than the most concise and factual article. And should george meet with her, she will give a full report. George is a very sick man, too sick to handle this kind of serious one-on-one and the report will not be good.


On a personal note, I salute your logical view, theboss!

[satya]

52. It's a reminder that our leaders are supposed to be held accountable.

And how do we do that? Can't vote them out, because the elections are rigged. Congress has sent letter upon letter asking questions; they see "no need" to answer. They're stacking the courts with judges that will ignore the rule of law. They set up sham "commissions" on election fraud and 9-11 to spread disinfo. They hide behind the cloak of "national security" to classify anything that might reveal their corruption and gag those who dare to speak truth to power.

Do you want to live under a tyranny? If not, how do YOU plan to take our country back?

[Canuckistanian]

54. HE's the one who's supposed to be the UNITER

He struts around in military garb, has probably given a speech at every major armed forces base and has personally made it almost a crime to "not support the troops".

He has never gone to a soldier's funeral, never held a special memorial or paid any kind of special honor to a vet beyond photo ops.

He owes it to military families, even if he has to take his lumps. This is genuine concern and anger and there has to come a point where he has to take responsibility, ESPECIALLY when it's bad news.

[Pacifist Patriot]

60. Because every little bit helps.

We aren't going to get a smoking gun or an act of contrition. Any little thing that highlights the problems we are facing helps. She may not accomplish anything concrete, but she will raise awareness and highlight shortcomings.

I'll echo the thought that Kosovo and Iraq are not particularly analogous. On the other hand, I don't see Clinton shutting down a grieving mother, do you?

[Booster]

61. Do you really believe that Rosa Parks didn't have any effect at

all on the civil rights movement? When she did what she did, people started to say "that's enough of this bullshit", and that's exactly what we need now - people all over the world, but mostly here, to say "that's enough of this bullshit", especially since Bushco is huffing about attacking Iran. ENOUGH OF THIS BULLSHIT.

[merh]

62. A legitimate question she asks today.

Why do the right wing media so assiduously scrutinize the words of a grief filled mother and ignore the words of a lying president?
~~ Cindy Sheehan ~~ 8/9/05

[mandyky]

63. A few comments

Other than Spock on star trek, logic does not preclude emotion (or partisanship).

I see your questions as very partisan - especially DU complaining about what is on Fox (i refuse to call it news). Many of us do not watch it.

As for your questions, #1 - What is the point?

Well, maybe it will make people think. The Downing Street Memos and Plame are just coming to light in the mainstream media. We were bamboozled into this war. That is the point. Iraq was not connected to 9-11, no WMDs, etc. For the limbaugh listeners and Fox viewers, some of this is indeed news.

#2 If she meets Bush, what does she expect to accomplish?-
Tune into Guy James Sat and perhaps he'll ask. I can guess that this is her version of "bring it on", to honor her son.

This is symbolic because as Teddy Kennedy said, the war was cooked up in Texas the Augustbefore the war.

As for #3 this gave you away to me - "What if the situations were reversed?

If some Rush Limbaugh listener lost a son in Kosovo and hand planted himself outside of Steven Spielberg's estate during one of Clinton's visits, would we be demanding that Clinton have coffee with him in order to be dressed down? I wouldn't. I don't think every American has the right for a private meeting with the President to express a grievance. I live twenty minutes from the White House and have never been invited over...even when Clinton lived there."

Clinton did not spend 1/4 of his time in office visiting Steven Spielburg. If I remember right, Clinton usually took 2 weeks in August for vacation. Not only that Clinton had enough people skills that he could have shown empathy for a grieving parent or family member of a fallen soldier. GWB is a spoiled child who is incapable of talking to people if it requires he deviate from a Rovian script.

How many casualties were there in Kosovo? Even to date. Any maiming?

[theboss]

67. Gave me away?

Oh...yet another person accusing me of being a closet Republican...

Once again...my credentials....

Involved in Democratic politics since I was five. Campaigned for the first time at age six. Mom won landmark Supreme Court case to run for office, essentially overturning a Jim Crow law aimed at women. Am on a first name basis with Senator Rockefeller. Was in the College Democrats. Volunteered for Clinton. Have given money to the ACLU/pondered working for the ACLU. Adopted my grandfather's habit of never crossing a picket line, even if its pro athletes on strike. Etc. etc. etc.

I'm a Democrat, through and through.

[mandyky]

75. I did not accuse you of being a closet anything

I merely pointed out that your "logical questions" had their own partisan slant to them, and were not as logical as you assumed.
Maybe you were overcompensating to be fair. Who knows?

What I did find amusing is that you equated logic with no emotions.
Maybe you are a Democrat who supports the war. If I think someone is a troll, I say so. I merely pointed out your questioning was just as political as you said Mrs. Sheehan was being.

So am I right? You were for this "Messopotamia" GWB has made? Do you believe we have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here? You think it is ok that the facts may have been manipulated to take us into war? That is why Mrs. Sheehan is in Crawford - because as Gephardt so aptly put "Bush is a miserable failure".

[theboss]

108. I believe we are at war with Islamic terrorists

And being at war with Islamic terrorists, there is a military component to things. I was very much in favor of going into Afghanistan.

I've never believed going to war in Iraq was the right move. I was against the war from the beginning, though I did hold out hope that it wouldn't turn into the disaster it has become. Rumsfeld belief that you can occupy a large country with a smallish contingent of troops is even more nightmarishily wrong than I could have expected.

Of course, if I were in charge, there is fair chance that we would have been occupying Saudi Arabia from October 2001. There is a slight truth to the concept of "fighting them over there so we don't have to do it here." The real problem is that Iraq is not the correct "there." The money, ideology and manpower comes from Saudi Arabia.

[Sequoia]

66. Okay, sir.....I see you now.

[trekbiker]

68. "fiercely logical" ???????

comparing Kosovo and Iraq is illogical. If Clinton lied about Milosovich having WMD's, that he was a direct threat to the US, that he was pursuing nuclear weapons, etc. your example would make more sense. Also, the serbs were carrying out a campaign of genocide. They were in fact a very real threat to thier nieghbors and the stability of the region. If anything, Clinton waited too long to stop the slaughter. The Kosovo campaign was a worthy cause. Iraq is not. The Sudan would be another worthy cause but they have no oil or politically strategic importance... unfortunately.

Vietnam is a more "logical" comparison to Iraq.

Your hypothetical conversation between bush and Mrs. Sheehan misses the point. The point is to draw attention to this insanity that is the Bush admin and huge mistake that is the Iraq war.

[Jade Fox]

69. What a bizarre post....

Are you so logical you don't understand the power of a sybolic gesture?
Bush needs to look into the face of the effect he is having on real human
beings in the real world, and have to answer for his actions.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

72. Congratulations. Few people are so honest & proud

about not having a clue.

[trekbiker]

73. aaahhaahaaaa... !!!! cracked me up....

[spuddonna]

74. LMAO! Neil O'Donnell's shame will truly live forever...

in the hearts of Steelers fans everywhere....:)

That said, I think one of the things that is 'giving this story legs' is that many people would like an answer to the question "Why are we in this war?" It is purely emotional. It doesn't make a lot of difference why, really, but people want to know. It doesn't fix the problem of Iraq. But it does shine a spotlight on how angry the majority of Americans are about this war. Cindy herself has said how many TV/newspeople have told her after their interviews "I agree with you"...

And maybe that's the first step. People are really fired up over this. Maybe it takes unorganized protests before we start the organized ones. I don't see this as draining energy away from the fight for election rights, or the DSM, or any of the other issues... I think it could be a potent motivator for people.

BTW - Did you grow up in the 'burgh? I'm a yinzer from north of the three rivers...

[AuntiBush]

77. If You Do Not Get the Point... It's Pointless to Explain...

My sympathies that you do not "get the point."

[AmBlue]

78. I have a question for you:

Do you have children? Have you ever experienced the senseless death of one of your children?

I have children and though never lost one can easily imagine why Cindy wants to talk to George. George has good reason to fear her because I don't think they'll be able to swiftboat her, as hard as they will try.

It'd be kinda like killing puppies and trying to look good doing it.

[AuntieM1957]

79. Poor Gold Star Moms

just like those misguided activists who so mistakenly and stupidly spoke out against past injustices - they must be doomed to failure.

Ghandi, Dr. King, Rosa Parks, Thomas Paine, et al

Yeah, I just don't get the point, either.

:sarcasm:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

80. What did Rosa Parks accomplish by not going to the back of the bus?

Nothing I suppose. I doubt if she changed the bus driver's mind on the merits of Jim Crow.

Everything.

[Inland]

82. The issue is whether opposing the president is legitimate.

So far, the answer has been sure, as long as nobody knows about it, or you don't expect the president to actually give you a hearing.

No, Bush won't change his mind, but that's why HE's going to hell.

But we still get to tell him to his face what we think, not behind a barrier, not five miles away, not while he dismisses us as "polls" or "focus groups", and if he wants to continue on after listening, then at least he can't say that only assholes and America haters oppose the war.

[Pam-Moby]

83. I feel that Bush twists all truth.

Someone must make him be accountable for his actions. Cindy should not be ignored! I feel it will be a heatwave for this administration until the people of this country gets the truth about why we are in iraq. Cindys courage may cause the county to wake up and join her in bringing this administration down for all of the lies.
edit spelling

[bloom]

84. Yep - you're missing it

She is calling on him to explain himself - that which the news is avoiding.

It's what more of us should have been in the streets about for about forever - until these idiots had to explain themselves or shrivel up.

It's about Damn time somebody does it.

[Pam-Moby]

85. here-here you got it!

:toast:

[Gregorian]

86. Logic is overrated.

Emotions are underrated.

I'm an emotional engineer. Now there's a combo that won't get you to the moon. Is going to the moon really that important? No. Feeding people is.

[lostinacause]

91. I disagree; though it may be because of elevated self importance.

Emotions tend get in the way of making a decision. When emotions are involved people usually make worse choices then when choices are purely based on thought. What I care about shows in the choices I make. Besides being shunned for constantly sounding like an insensitive @#$, usually by my girlfriend I might add, it does me quite well.

[sabra]

87. Downing Street Minutes

I saw an interview of Mrs. Sheehan on a Fox Reno affiliate. It was an excellent interview, and she was bringing things up, like DSM to the forefront, and awareness to the viewers.

[checks-n-balances]

89. She has the MORAL AUTHORITY, trying to hold him accountable

for his actions. He won't allow anyone to ask him questions or he refuses to answer them, and this scenario dramatizes it. The corporate media obviously won't cover these types of things unless they ARE dramatic - like showdowns.

It's High Noon, and this is a showdown between truth and deceit (deadly lies).

[txindy]

90. I think she's highlighting his lies and the lies that the MSM have told:

including the one that claims that the American people believe Junior is "likable," "straightforward," and "trustworthy."

Every moment that Junior treats Cindy as if she is beneath his notice, is another notch he slips down in the estimation of the American public. And that is not a bad thing because he never deserved the positive image that KKKarl and his media machine created for the little crackhead in the first place. That a grieving mother is doing this outside of the fake 'ranch' that Junior had created to give him a down-home image is delicious irony. Plus, he's literally trapped. Will he give up his vacation early? He'll never give in like that, so he's stuck there. Hiding. From a dead soldier's mother.

Junior's a coward. And the country is facing that every minute that Cindy Sheehan and her wonderful supporters are in Crawford.

[electron_blue]

93. It's an "The Emperor is wearing no clothes" event

Bush claims soldiers are dying for a Nobel Cause. She is asking what that Nobel Cause is. There is no Nobel Cause. How embarrassing, shocking, awkward, squirmy. Emotion enters into it, don't underestimate it.

[rman]

94. Downing Street Memos is one of the main reasons why she is there

"And to remind everybody, a few things have happened since June of 2004: The 9/11 commission report; the Senate Intelligence report; the Duelfer WMD report; and most damaging and criminal: the Downing Street Memos."
-- Cindy Sheehan
http://meetwithcindy.org/

Cindy can explain what's wrong with this war in terms everyone can understand.

[Princess Turandot]

95. Bush is the guy whose supporters think would sit down to a beer with them.

That same regular fella cannot bring himself to come out and speak to this grieving woman. Instead, he sends a suit who says 'well, your son is dead, but the Iraqis voted, so his death was worth it.' Along with everything else that people have noted herein, it shows him to be the phony that we have the unfortunate sense to know that he is, but which not everyone sees.

[rucky]

97. It would be logical to figure-in the emotional impact.

especially in this cultural climate.

Is Cindy Sheehan and her crew being completely honest in their intentions? No. heartfelt? Oh, yes. It's a little manipulative to play up the David vs. Goliath angle, but she did lose her son, and i'm guessing that her emotions are sincere and the calculative part is more conditioning than anything.

But the PROCESS of what she is doing is very effective in inspiring millions and increasing awareness of this gawdaful war, even if her said product isn't really what she's advertising. This story will be better if she never talks to Bush (see Roger & Me). This story will be fantastic if she gets arrested. HOPE is real outcome here...she just can't come out and say it, or else people wouldn't be paying attention and the AP wouldn't cover an admitted publicity stunt. I think Cindy Sheehan kinda knows this. But ya gotta hand it to her, she's amazing...

P.S.: I've thought it through with my own anthropologist-from-mars perspective, and for me it's must more productive to get into it. Momentum and all.

[tavalon]

98. What was the point of what Ghandi did?

If you understand that one, you have the answer to the your first question. Just in case you don't, what he did and what she is doing is about turning the tide of public opinion. The public is swayed, not by throwing out numbers and rational reasons, but by pure, raw emotion. What's important about 2000 dead soldiers? Not much to the average Joe/Jane just trying to get food on the table. What's important about a grieving mother? Every last thing at the emotional level to that same Joe/Jane. It doesn't require explaining. They just get it. It's the ultimate 20 second sound bite that keeps on affecting them.

Lots of people keep getting hung up on why she wants to talk to him. She doesn't actually. Now, I'm not trying to put words in her head. Maybe she really does want to talk to him but I can't see why. She already knows everything she needs to know about his character and his lack of empathy. The people she is trying to get a conversation started with and may I add, is succeeding admirably at, is the public. She has asked for and received an audience with them. If she is arrested on Thursday, that conversation will become longer and all the more heartfelt. She has their hearts and she may well win their minds.

It wasn't really Nixon who ended the war in Vietnam. It was the tide of public opinion that ended it. And so it will be with Iraq.

I've just answered your second two questions. The "President" is irrelevent to this ongoing discussion. The conversation is with the public and the public is listening and feeling deeply.

Hopefully millions of us, yourself included, will be in Washington D.C. on September 24th to place the exclamation point at the end of this discussion. But Cindy Sheehan, with a mothers love and tenacity, is the one who began the conversation.

[crowcalling]

107. What Cindy symbolizes

To me, she is an in-your-face wake-up call particularly for us mothers, and for us mothers this walk-up call is primal. I have a son-in-law in the Navy, possibly going to IRAQ soon. Cindy pops that ballon of denial that we all walk around in hoping that the worst doesn't happen to our children, doesn't happen to us.

I support her, have donated to her cause and am sending her a letter in support. I can't be there with her at this time. She shames me - plain and simple. Not in a negative way, but in a way that says - if your son were as important to you as mine was to me, you would be here with me now asking these questions that I am asking.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

109. making bush publicly and personally face his policies

the only think i can think is that it somehow creates an "accountability moment" for bush. he has hid from and been sheilded from any disagreement with his policies and the facts surrounding the policies. she would be in a position to personally require accountability and justification for what has happened. so far it seems he has avoided that.