An Open Letter from Ralph Nader to Cindy Sheehan

[sabra]

http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0810-15.htm

An Open Letter from Ralph Nader to Cindy Sheehan

WASHINGTON - August 10 -

Dear Ms. Sheehan,

From your grief over the loss of your son, Casey, in Iraq has come the courage to spotlight nationally the cowardly character trait of a President who refuses to meet with anyone or any group critical of his illegal, fabricated, deceptive war and occupation of that ravaged country. As a messianic militarist, Mr. Bush turned aside his own father's major advisers who warned him of the terroristic, political, and diplomatic perils to the United States from an invasion of Iraq. He refused to listen.

Thirteen organizations in early 2003 separately wrote their President requesting a meeting to have him hear them out as to why they opposed his drumbeating, on-the-road-to war policies. These groups represented millions of Americans. They included church leaders, veterans, business, labor, retired intelligence officials, students, women and others. They are among those Americans who are not allowed through the carefully screened public audiences that are bused to arenas around the country to hear his repetitive slogans for carrying on this draining, boomeranging war. They each wrote President Bush but he never bothered even to acknowledge their letters simply to say no to the requested meetings. Not even the courtesy of a reply came from their White House. Ever since then it has been the same-exclusion, denial, contempt and arrogance for views counter to that of Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney and the tight circle around them that composes the inner tin ear of this Administration. Why, they even refuse to listen to objections by their own government's military lawyers (JAG) over repeated violations of due process of law. When will he realize that he is supposed to be the President of all the people, not just those misled into supporting his Iraq maneuvers?

Perhaps the breakthrough will begin this hot August in Crawford, Texas, with the devastating loss of a beloved child transformed into a mission for the soul of our country. This rogue regime, led by two draft-dodgers and officially counseled by similar pro-war evaders during the Vietnam War, is not "our country." Millions of Americans, including military and public servants in his Administration, and many in the retired military, diplomatic and intelligence services, opposed this war, still oppose it and do not equate George W. Bush and Dick Cheney with the United States of America.

....

Consider bringing to him a copy of President Dwight Eisenhower's famous "Cross of Iron" speech, delivered in April 1953 before the nation's newspaper editors in Washington, D.C. And add statements by Marine General Anthony Zinni (ret.), a Middle East specialist who strongly criticized the Bush-Cheney war policy before and after March 2003. May you and your associates succeed in galvanizing the public debate in this country over why a growing majority of Americans now think it was a costly mistake to invade Iraq and want our soldiers back, with the U.S. out of that country. He knows that his support for how he is handling this war-occupation is falling close to one third of respondents in recent polls-the lowest yet. Even with the mass-media at his disposal everyday, he now represents a minority of public opinion, which should give him pause before closing his oil marinated doors on majority views in this nation.

May you prevail where others have failed to secure an audience with Mr. Bush.

Sincerely,

Ralph Nader

[fooj]

1. Way to step up, Mr. Nader!

Peace.

[existentialist]

103. "If Hitler had invaded hell

I would at least make favorable mention of the Devil in the House of Commons."
Winston Churchill, defending why he had made remarks favorable to Russia and Stalin after Hitler had invaded Russia.


Hey, I want to puke at Nader's arrogance too. And I do believe that he was enough of a factor that without him Gore would have been elected in 2000. But that is a good letter, and even if he is an arrogant SOB who certainly played a part in getting us into this mess I'm not in a mood the be shitting on anyone who can help galvanize public opinion against Bush and the neocons.

Not now, to do so would be acting very similarly to what Nader did in 2000 (and again in 2004). I don't hate Nader enough that I can remotely justify acting like him.

[guntherconcept]

2. F*ck Ralph Nader

If it wasn't for him being an egomaniacal and dishonest prick in 2000 we wouldn't be in this situation. May he rot in hell.

[ronnykmarshall]

6. Ya beat me to it.

I will never have one once of respect for La Ralph.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

21. "never has one once?" eh?

ok, you do that

[puerco-bellies]

55. Hate to ditto but F*@CK YOU Nader

Now go grovel for more GOP funding, you fucking asswipe.

[wtmusic]

9. Eh

Nader had nothing to do with counting votes in FL, SCOTUS, or the fact that Gore couldn't help but make you fall asleep in your cereal.

All because of Nader. Yah sure...

[rzemanfl]

14. Look at all the Nader votes in Florida in 2000, think they'd have

gone to cuckoo bananas if Nader had bowed out?

[wtmusic]

16. coulda woulda shoulda

where's Gore's open letter to Sheehan? I know it was around here somewhere....

[Inland]

37. Only douchebag Nader, professional kibutzer,

the guy who can't do so he teaches, would tell someone else what to do in their confrontation with power--in an "open letter" to make sure he gets another fifteen minutes.

Same as his open letter advising congress on how to confront Bush.

Real politicans GET power. Nader manages to remove himself and everyone he agrees with from power then has the gall to tell them how to live in the world he made. Fuck him.

[rzemanfl]

61. "Open letters" are bullshit. He should have written her and let

her decide whether to share it.

[moodforaday]

35. Those votes could be sham too

After all, there are two ways to steal an election. The ham-handed way: count the other guy's votes as votes cast for you. The subtle way: count his votes as cast for a 3rd party candidate who has no chance to win.

I agree Nader should have bowed out in 2000, but all the votes he got may not have been his.

[rzemanfl]

54. And then there is Patrick Buchanan and all the military ballots

cast after the election, but I am sure Nader got more than 537 legitimate votes in Florida in 2000.

[MadHound]

136. Actually, according to Al From and the DLC, the answer is YES.

"The assertion that Nader's marginal vote hurt Gore is not borne out by polling data. When exit pollers asked voters how they would have voted in a two-way race, Bush actually won by a point. That was better than he did with Nader in the race. "<http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=179&contentid=2919>

Sorry, but by any measure you put out there, Nader didn't throw Florida to Bush. First off, when all the votes were finally counted, Gore won. But before that there was the small matter of the appointment by the Supreme Court. Also there is the fact that Gore ran a horrible recount campaign. For one thing, Gore and his handlers were handed the Votescam information by Greg Palast during the beginning of the recount process. All the information was there, enough to implicate both Harris and Jeb in massive fraud. If Gore had done his sworn duty to protect and uphold the Constitution, gee, he would have not only won, but he would have banished the Bushes to the political wilderness forever. But what did Gore do instead? Sit on that information. Bad bad move, and one we are all paying for.

Then there is the matter of the almost 600,000 self described liberals and registered Democratic voters that Gore pissed off with his stance on off shore drilling in the Gulf. Rather than listen to his constituents on this one, he instead took the pro-drilling stance favored by his corporate masters over at BP. This move pissed off these nearly 600,000 voters so much that they decided to double screw Gore, for not only did they not vote for him, but they instead voted for Bush! Gee, 600,000 votes that Gore pissed away, betraying all of us, all for that corporate lucre:eyes:

Look friend, I know that it is a popular misconception, and a convient way of not having to look at the problems in the party, but the truth of the matter is that the only person responsible for Gore's loss in Florida is Gore himself. He had multiple chances to win the state, and sadly, he blew it. Nader, as popular as it is to believe otherwise, played no part in Gore's defeat, Gore did that all on his own.

[SammyWinstonJack]

137. I'd rather have someone who would "make you fall asleep in

your cereal" then someone who wages never ending war. But that's just me and GORE WON both the popular vote and the EC vote, not that that mattered much. As far as Nadar goes, if his participation in this gets Cindy more attention, I'm all for it.

[MnFats]

11. sad to say but I agree....didn't he take GOP money, too?

and help getting on the ballot from Repubs.
Yeah
Fuck him very much.

[FreedomAngel82]

109. Yes he did

And a rightwing group helped to publish a book he wrote. Just google Ralph Nader.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

18. blah, blah, blah - still beating that dead horse?

maybe if al gore had won his home state

maybe if clinton-gore hadn't sold the left and union base out with corporate globalism, nader wouldn't have received a single vote

nader was against this was when kerry was still voting for it and gore was still going around saying, 'george w bush is my commander in chief' with a dopey shit-eating grin on his face

[FreedomAngel82]

110. LOL And Tennessee has more EC votes then Flordia?

Oh brother. Gore didn't win Tennessee by four percent. Oh yeah that's a huge loss. :eyes: Nader can fuck off.

[danalytical]

24. Ralph Nader is a great American

If the Democrats hadn't been so... well Republican in 2000, I might not have voted for Ralph, but then again I didn't know how bad Bush would be. The DLC was king in 2000 if you would remember. Centrists were everywhere, and lefties had nowhere to turn. That's why we flocked to Nader. If a few thousand more people voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, we could have forced the Election Committee to include the Green party in the next round of Presidential debates and to fund their Presidential bid. THAT would have been a major accomplishment, and worthy of continued support.

[burythehatchet]

42. yeah, he's the problem....BURN HIMMMMMMMMMM

[TahitiNut]

62. If cows could really fly ...

... all the money you invested in Steel Umbrellas, Ltd. wouldn't have been lost. :eyes: It's the cows' fault.

[Tinoire]

77. Hi my friend!

:rofl:

So when are you coming down for another antiwar protest? You know, with all those dirty real-conviction, Nader-accepting activists ;)

[TahitiNut]

83. Nothing would make me happier than to march and nosh with you and Karen.

I miss the Bay Area and y'all with a daily passion. :hi: The Bay Area has the finest people on the face of the planet, I'm certain.

[Tinoire]

99. We miss you too!

It hasn't been the same since you left :(

If you ever come visit, please let me know & we'll stage our own march! :hug:

[Geoff R. Casavant]

69. Well, my two cents says

no matter how much we hate to admit it, if Al Gore had carried his home state of Tennessee, the way pretty much any candidate can be expected to win his home state, Florida would have been nothing but a historical footnote.

Nader was only one factor leading to Gore's loss, but he wasn't the only one.

Myself, I lost patience with him in 2004. Then, he knew what the stakes were and still went ahead with his ego trip.

[katinmn]

75. Uh, the election, both of them were STOLEN!

[mandyky]

88. Oh really? Any Dem who does not send Mrs. Sheehan

a similar note is as complacent as Bush.

Blaming 2000 on Ralph Nader is crazy. If the Dem Party does not step up soon, and I mean folks other than Conyers and our few stars, it will be our own fault. If John Kerry, Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton say they'd still give the idiot cowboy the vote, where does that leave us.

And it wasn't Nader who caused all those Buchanan votes in florida with the elderly jewish voters was it? Yeah, Nader could have dropped out, but the crooks inhabiting the white house are there not because of Nader. They are crooks and theives.

[NoSheep]

91. That election was stolen-however, I get your point.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[helderheid]

98. Emmm

I've never voted for Nader but if memory serves, IT WAS THE SUPREME COURT that handed the WH to * - GORE WON.

[question everything]

121. Perfectly stated!

[journalist3072]

122. Kick ass post of the day!!!!! Thank you soooooo much!

I have no respect for Ralph Nader's disengenous self.

I think one of the greatest lies he perpetrated against the American people, was to say that there was really no difference between the Republican and Democratic parties.

There are fundamental differences between both parties, and the way they see this country.

[louis-t]

3. Great stuff from a guy who helped shrub get selected.

I do like 'messianic militarist' though.

[nookiemonster]

4. Although a part of me really wants to throttle Ralph,

he did the right thing this time. :kick:

Thanks Sabra!

[shadowknows69]

17. Cut the shit

this fight is too important for us to begrudge anyone who would want to support Cindy Sheehan. If Hitler himself wanted to come up from South America and declare: "shit I thought I was bad. way to go george." I'd hand him a microphone. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[nookiemonster]

33. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Damn! It's so fucking relavent. I agree. Back off Ralph. Yeah, he's a fuckstick. It will take alot more than this to get Ralph back on our better side.

Let's just accept it for what it is. A prominent man showing compassion for a woman who lost her son in an illegal invasion.

[sellitman]

5. Who frigging cares what Nader thinks?

I certainly don't!

Screw him forever!!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Thanks Sabra. He's not popular to many here, but this was a good letter

[Tinoire]

8. Kudos to Nader! & Recommended so Dems use as an example

since YET again, all but the same few Progressives from the Conyers Kucinich group, have FAILED MISERABLY to speak up for the people.

Failes as MISERABLY as they did in 2000 and ever since...

Thank you Nader, thank you for your fearlessness in saying it like it needs to be said. If more Dems had a spine like yours, we wouldn't have Bush in the White House today.

[Don Claybrook]

46. As usual, Tinoire, I'm proud to stand with Nader and you

and the other 5 or 6 percent of Democrats who somehow didn't arrive at the conclusion that Ralph Nader is the antichrist. Being on the right side of a given issue is so much more fulfilling than being on the right side of a party line, a line that keeps drifting toward the GOP.

And now I'll wait for the pragmatic, centerist scolding that's sure to come my way about never winning another election with this sort of attitude. In the meantime, thanks for your consistency, and thanks for helping me to remember that Ralph Nader was wrong on at least one point: not all Democrats are indistinguishable from Republicans.

[Tinoire]

72. Breath of fresh air to see you in this murky Nader-hating swamp.

:hi:

It's my pride to stand with YOU and the same 15 Democrats who have shown any backbone over the last 5 years.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. Great letter, but a day late and a dollar short.

[Generic Other]

12. This is so eloquently sad coming from Nader

He is right in what he says, but I can't bear to hear him speak.

[TlalocW]

13. Dear Cindy,

If only I hadn't been a meglomaniacal prick in 2000, running around the country spouting the lie that there was no difference between Bush and Gore, your son would still be alive. As it is, he's dead so I'll send you this letter so I can get back in the limelight for a few moments.

Once again, sorry about your kid.

Ralph.

TlalocW

[enough]

22. Now THERE is an eloquent letter. Well said, TlalocW.

[Inland]

26. Beat me to it, see #25

[Tinoire]

28. Are the IWR Democrats sorry too?

You know, the ones who make it hard for Progressives to tell the difference between a Republican and a Democrat.

Tell me ARE THEY SORRY ABOUT HER KID? ARE THEY SORRY FOR VOTING FOR BUSH'S WAR?

Can I look forward to reading the following letter from them?

If only we hadn't been such spineless jellyfish in 2000, refusing to stand by the CBC when they just needed one lousy Senator, and if we hadn't been such complicit war lovers in 2003, running around the country supporting the lies that there were WMDs in Iraq, your son would still be alive. As it is, he's dead so we'll send you this letter so we can get back in the limelight for a few moments.

Once again, sorry about your kid.

IWR-voting Democrats

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

32. if you're going to be like that, here's another

Sorry I put my presidential run ahead of doing the right thing and voted for this damn war. I probably should grow a set of balls.

And I should stop pretending I was misled and couldn't see that it was all a sham, unlike the millions of protesters worldwide who figured it out at the time.

Once again, sorry about your kid.

John K.

[dweller]

...you forgot to mention,

He's got her back.


:mad:

dp

[trekbiker]

36. will never forgive Ralph..

Egomaniacal prick.. I pray history puts him in the trashbin he deserves.

without Ralph there would be no Iraq war, no Chimpy, 1800+ dead and 10,000+ plus maimed young americans... maybe even no 9/11.. the environment, the national debt, our standing in the world.... tragedies all..

remember that show Connections???

little things change the entire world. and you Ralph are one of those little things..

[Tinoire]

57. And just think, without Clinton Gore's NAFTA, WTO, Welfare Reform,

Plan Colombia, War against Yugoslavia, zippergate, etc, ETC, there would have been no Nader :shrug:

What a couple of corporate-loving assholes. Just think, without their DLC cozying up to the corporations, they wouldn't have lost so much support. What a tragedy.

[BiggJawn]

138. That sums it up.

I was going to say something about "Dear Cindy, sorry I let my big fucking EGO get in the way of what was Right for America..."

[dweller]

15. Sad. Even Cindy Sheehan can't heal the rift here...

Nader's words are supportive. Too bad some can't see that.


and in other news, CBS just opened with Iraq's death toll today. More US soldiers killed. And the story led to the Cindy Sheehan camp outside Crawford. Kudos to Nader, and CBS for mentioning her.

dp

[ultraist]

19. Awesome letter, who cares if Nader wrote it.

His words ring true and he is wishing Cindy Sheehan success.

[Mr_Spock]

20. Whoa! Even Ralphies had enough of the Murderers crap!

AWOL is giving the USA a big fat black eye - not that I'm surprised...

[ulysses]

23. sad bunch of motherfuckers

who can't give an "amen" because Nader's at the pulpit.

Feh. And you're going to pretend to be my moral superior?

[Inland]

25. "Dear Cindy: I might have fucked things up in 2000."

"If I hadn't been so busy arguing that there wasn't any difference between democrats and republicans, I might have noticed that Bush really was as crazy conservative sociopathic chickenhawk lying sack of shit all my liberal and democratic friends said he was.

"If I had thought things through, I would have had the foresight to throw my weight behind the lesser of two evils, given that the greater of the two evils got your son killed.

"If I had thought things through, both you and I would have a president that would actually listen to us.

"But now all I can do is advise you on what to say if you ever get the president's ear, because I don't think things through and can't tell what a total crock of shit it is that I send messages through some dead vet's mom because indulging my own political ambition, ironically, put me and everything I believe in about a million miles from any political power."

Sorry, again, good luck
Ralph.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

27. if you blame ralph for 2000, then you have to hate moore, garofalo,

donahue, tim and susan, ani difranco, noam chomsky, howard zinn, jim hightower, danny glover, amy goodman, cornell west and more-because they backed him

this knee-jerk party line nonsense is so tiresome. say what you will about the 2004 run-gore deserved to be taken on by the left in 2000. it wasn't until ralph's numbers went up that gore started sounding populist at the convention and pulled ahead of bush, anyway.

before that, he was running around clueless and down by nearly double digits.

[Inland]

31. Fuck them too.

Sorry, the difference between Gore and Bush isn't knee jerk party line nonsense.

Ask Cindy if she thinks there's a difference.

Nader didn't just argue issues, he asked people to not vote for gore right up to the end, and it worked. They didn't, Gore lost, and Bush got people killed.

Take responsibility for your vote.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

39. and you forsaw september 11th in your crystal ball then?

funny all i remember gore talking about at the time was a lockbox and dingel-norwood

pre-sept 11 bush and gore were and practically indistinguishable- pro-GATT, pro-NAFTA, pro-FTAA, pro-CAFTA, pro-WTO, pro-MFN for China, pro-death penalty, opposed to single payer health care, pro-appeasing the Miami Cuban mafia, pro-Iraq sanctions, pro-welfare "reform", etc, etc, etc

you condemn Ralph, yet you let Clinton-Gore totally off the hook for passing so much rightwing stuff (things Reagan would never in his wildest dreams have tried to get through a Democratic congress) and making a good deal of Bush's policies possible

[Inland]

45. No, but unlike Nader, I don't think Gore would have ignored the memo

dismantled the Clinton anti terror programs, or sat on the entire alqaeda problem.

Ralph told everyone there wasn't a dime's worth of difference. It was bullshit. It was a good line, and made sense for someone trying to distinguish himself from two other candidates, but it was bullshit.

Maybe you dont' think that Gore's lockbox talk was very exciting, but I bet you can tell the difference between a balanced budget and what we have today.

Maybe you can't or couldn't tell the difference.

But I bet Cindy Sheehan can tell.

Take some responsibility for your vote.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

51. i'm proud of my vote

unlike gore and kerry, who talked left but voted rightwing.
do you support all of those policies of the 90s-which contributed to our current climate?
do you think the GOP propaganda machine would be anywhere near as powerful today if clinton-gore had passed the '96 telcom act and betrayed us to rightwing people like clear channel?

do you think gore should have been let off the hook for selling labor out for 8 years with globalization policies? or should we have just sat down, shut up, and waved a lieberman sign?

[Inland]

64. So go tell Cindy. It'll be a gas.

After all, you seem pretty much sure that just about any old politician would have made the same decision to go to war Bush did.

Why should she bother to tell Bush, since everyone in the democratic and republican party are on the same page?

Even Gore, even Clinton, even though they had eight years to invade anyone they wanted, and didn't.

You really can't tell the difference. That's not just dumb, but criminal. People are dying, buddy, and not because someone "contributed to our current climate" with NAFTA.

You helped Bush win. You. Not me. You. And you are proud, since you believe that it was a vote for purity when in reality it brought evil to our country, in its small, single vote way.

So you're welcome to your purity, just as Saint Ralph is. We're just paying for it, that's all. Cindy sure it.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

73. a democratic senate, including john kerry, voted for the war

how soon you forget that

ralph opposed it from sept 12

[Inland]

86. Ralph opposed it after making Bush president

making sure that Bush called the shots, Bush ran the congress, Bush controlled the intel.

But all you care about is Saint Ralph's purity, not the real world effects of his actions.

His intentions are pure, as he is unsullied by political considerations. He didn't MEAN Bush to be president, he just meant Gore to NOT be president and told everyone there wasn't any difference. But he meant well.

Sounds like what Bush said when the WMD didn't show. OOPSY DAISY, I meant well.

Well, thanks to Ralph, we are ALL closing the barn door after the horse is out, trying to clean up his mess. What a dick.

[sellitman]

108. The Nader voters will never admit they screwed up.

Sort of reminds me of someone else who feels the same way about himself.

The term delusional comes to mind.

[Imagevision]

139. Senators voted for war based on Bush/Cheney cherry picked Intel

Bush lied to get us into the oil/money war - the fucker lied/deceived!
End of story.

[dweller]

81. ouch...twisted thought just crossed my mind.

Anybody here have any idea who Cindy Sheehan supported in 2000?
Bush?
Gore?

Nader??


as for myself, i don't care who she may have supported then. Today, she is trying to bring the troops home. Today, she is doing more than many of our so-called elected officials are purporting to, in confronting the little fascists in his compoundW recluse.

for that, she has my 100% gratitude, and for anyone that supports her, my solidarity as well.

at some point, the past has to become the past, so that a new future prospect can take hold.
dp

[trekbiker]

47. anyone could see that

bush and Gore were miles apart on the environment, on energy policy, on health care, on foreign policy..

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

53. gore and clinton did more damage to the environment than reagan

by letting corporations go to mexico and pollute the planet free of regulation

nafta and gatt did more to hurt labor and environmental laws than anyt6hing passed in american history up to that point

[trekbiker]

70. Reagan opened up more federal land

to his buddies in the oil and mining industry than any president in history.

"trees cause more pollution than automobiles do" is one of his famous quotes. remember that bastard James Watt??

Reagan tried to gut the clean air act and clean water act but congress defeated him, even over rode his veto (at least Reagan knew how to veto something!!)

and just like this Bush EPA enforcement cases went into the toilet under Reagan..

the only thing that saved the environment in the '80's was a democratic house and a senate controlled my moderate republicans.

no such luck today

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

74. a drop in thebucket when u realize the damage they can do now

unrestricted of any pollution standards. that's the danger of the bush-clinton-bush agenda. by moving operations out of the country, it makes any laws we pass here irrelevant.

environmental damage hurts us all, regardless of which side of the border it occurs on. it's a worldwide problem that has gotten far, far worse thanks to these policies.

and, of course, another downside is that now the right can blame govt regualtions on job loss and make americans afraid to hold any company accountable-for fear of losing more jobs to the situation the companies engineered.

but clinton couldn't be bothered with that, he needed to listen to dick morris and triangulate to the far right.

[Inland]

82. What complete and utter crap.

You could go down the list of Clinton executive orders and Clinton regulations that were reversed when Bush got into office regarding pollution, federal lands, Kyoto, etc.

Of course, they were only executive orders because there weren't any congressional democrats to pass environmental statutes...but there isn't any difference between congressional dems and republican dems, I suppose. Who's the democratic Delay?

It's one thing to argue that Clinton didn't do enough, but to pretend like there's a consistent slope from Reagan through Clinton to Bush as a means to get there is idiotic. Sounds more like a Republican argument meant to make people feel better about Bush than a proenvironment stand, or mere lunacy./

[EST]

117. Glaringly perceptive

[Tinoire]

126. I'm going to have to look for more of your posts.

Thanks for this!

[TruthIsAll]

50. They didn't? Well,some news for you. Gore won the popular vote by 540,000

And he won FL, until SCOTUS stopped the count.

In FL 175,000 votes were spoiled (under and overpunched). There swere Gore votes.

Remember the Palm Beach Butterfly Ballot?
Remenber Volusia, where 16,022 votes were dropped by Diebold?
Remebember the Miami-Dade Count Repub Recount riot?
Remember who the governor is?

Take responsibility for your ignorance.

[Inland]

60. Oh, so fuck Nader and all of them for making it close enough to steal

Happy? Just take the universe as it exists, with our without voter fraud as you desire, and say:

Nader runs, tells people not to vote for Gore, succeeds just enough so that Gore loses.

Simple as that.

Can't blame the electoral college and fraud for what NADER did.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

65. you still fail to consider why people voted for nader

do you really think the democrats and the dlc gave a rat's ass about our issues at the time?

[Inland]

76. Same reason why peolpe voted for Bush.

They were stupid and misled. And with Nader, there's a real sense of promoting personal virtue by throwing away a vote on a candidate who won't make any difference except symbolic. But OOOPSS, thanks to the closeness and the electoral college and voter fraud, those Nader votes swung it to Bush. Pretty stupid then, but the full scope of the error might not have been predictable.

But what's your excuse today? What's your excuse for saying even with retrospection that Bush and Gore are the same, that it was more important for Nader to run and get his three percent nationally and throw the election to Bush? Everyone knows Gore wouldn't have done ANYTHING the same as Bush.

Even in retrospect, you refuse to get any smarter. And that's a shame, because the next election is always going to pose a choice between voting for purity and voting for the candidate that might win and is close.

You're going to make the same mistake.

I hope that very few Americans die from it next time.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

85. hindsight is always 20/20

we supported him not for 3%, but because we wanted a new party movement to replace the psuedo-dems and hoped to get a turnout of perot-sized proportions

did anyone see sept 11th and this war coming? hell, no
even gore, who happily declared "gwb is my commander in chief" shortly after sept 11th, probably didn't in his wildest dreams think bush would go this far

[Inland]

93. So use hindsight and apologize, first.

Second, realize that it wasn't hindsight at all.

Anyone could see that Bush and Gore WEREN'T the same.

But Nader told people to NOT VOTE FOR GORE, and people are responsible for people doing what they ask.

If Nader was a fraud from the get go, never really meaning anyone to vote for him, then there's another whole side of waste of time to him.

[TruthIsAll]

58. Gore won the popular vote by 540,000. Remember?

And he won also FL until SCOTUS stopped the count, where 175,000 votes were spoiled (under and overpunched). These were Gore votes.

Remember the Palm Beach Butterfly Ballot? Thousands of old Palm Beach Jews fooled into voting for Buchanan.
Remember Volusia, where 16,022 votes were dropped by Diebold?
Remember the Miami-Dade Recount riot by DeLay/Bolton repugs?
Remember the 90,000 blacks disenfranchised?

You should.
Take responsibility for disregarding the facts.

[Tinoire]

40. Well, you're talking to Democrats not for Democracy

It's hilarious, it's never the fault of the swing voters, of the Democrats who voted for Bush, or of the Democrats who were too lazy to go vote- it's always Nader's fault.

With nonsensical logic like that , it's no wonder our party keeps losing.

Of course, we're talking about the crowd that voted for the war before they said they turned against it, or voted for the war without actually voting for the war.

Tortured logic leads to stupid comments like "It's all Nader's fault".

[Inland]

52. Noooooo.....

Nobody says it isn't the fault of republican voters or dem voters who voted for Bush. It IS their fault.

And as soon as somebody hold THEM up as liberal heroes, I'll be right there saying how stupid it is.

But then there's Nader, who did more to get Bush elected than any individual voter, republican democrat or otherwise, including Bush himself. It's not all his fault, but it's enough of his fault, and the fault of anyone else who told people NOT to vote for Gore. At least the republicans got what they thought they wanted. Nader got Bush. What a dope.

Incredibly, you think that the people who make the party lose are the ones who say you should vote democrat, and the ones who make it win are the ones who voted for someone else.

A naderite lecturing someone on how to win elections is as stupid as Nader telling Sheehan how to lobby the man he said was the same as Gore.

[noiretextatique]

107. he actually said there is no difference

which is not exactly the same thing as saying "the same." and for most, he was correct in that democrats and republicans are two sides of the same coin, both more beholden to corporate interests than to the people they are supposed to be representing.
nader is absolutely correct about the need for fundamental change in our political system.

[Puregonzo1188]

129. People voted for Nader

not because Nader told them “Don’t vote Gore” but because they believed in what he stood for. Ultimately voters not Nader made their decision to vote for Nader. Lots of third parties run, and have no affect on the end results. When everyone went to the polls in 2000 they knew it was a close race, yet some people would rather vote for a candidate they knew had no chance of winning, than Gore. Says something not to appealing about Gore, doesn’t it? People chose to vote Nader out of their own free will, not because Nader said “Don’t vote Gore” or ran as your post implied. Nader can run all he wants, but unless people vote for him, he has no effect on the election.

As for Nader and his supporters causing the war that is an absurd remark, as Bush ran as isolationist. No one had the clairvoyant abilities to know Bush would propose an unjustified war as Iraq, or even that Democrats would stand behind it. The fact is although not completely the same, Gore and Bush agreed on several key issues such as capitol punishment, and had marginally different opinions on others. Using their knowledge at the time, people choose Nader as an alternative to politics as usual.

Some may not realize it hear at DU, but many people are equally disgusted by all politicians regardless of party, and that’s who Nader placated to, people fed up with business as usual. One exit poll showed 37% of votes wouldn’t have voted had Nader not run. Not only that but many Nader votes also voted for Democratic Senators who won in narrow victories. Nader gathered a diverse crowd of supporters who felt skeptical of the status quo and opted for change instead.

May I also point out that many who feel Nader cost Gore the election feel Bush stole the election. How could both be possible?

[Tinoire]

131. Excellent post!

May I also point out that many who feel Nader cost Gore the election feel Bush stole the election. How could both be possible?

If your progressive little mind ;) could wrap itself around the statement that you can vote for the war without being for the war, then you'd have no problems understanding the logic lol. The reasoning of the "business as usual" crowd is as d.e.a.d. as usual.

For the LIFE of me, I cannot understand how the "business as usual" "let's stand in the middle of the road" crowd is surprised it got run over by Bush. Stand in the middle of the road and you get RUN OVER. Logic alone should tell you that but logic is in very short supply these days.

And got run over not once but twice- bunch of sorry fools more interested in supporting this dying corporate system than in allowing any progressive candidate within 100 yards of the finish line and thinking that any sorry old loser will do as long as he promises the people larger crumbs.

The sound of "no more crumbs" is growing louder- too bad the Democratic Party stops up its ears and pretends the people just adore them as not just the only alternative but the best alternative. False, false, false.

Wake up Democratic Party before more people abandon ship!

[Inland]

140. How can both be possible? Because one vote gets added to another

It's a cumulative effect, like ALL elections, which consists of a cumulation of VOTES.

Some vote Bush, some votes are stolen. Gore still wins. Then add Nader. Bush wins.

If that isn't causation, I don't know what is. Next you'll be telling me that I can't blame the voters for Bush, either.

Is there something about Nader that vacuums out the portion of the brain that recognizes causal effect? Is it that Nader voters are so used to having no effect at all, and so proud that their positions are taken without regard to winning a single vote, that the thought of changing the result of an election scares and shames them?

Well, you should be happy, because voting for Nader got rid of politics of usual and the two party system. Now we have a one party system and a tendency to fascism that will only be stopped by a bloody disaster of a war. Good work, that. What's the plan now, Ralph? You've written open letters to the Senate and Cindy---the Supreme Court gets a missive, or Pope Benedict?

By the way, Bush ran as an environmentalist, a compassionate conservative, a fiscal conservative, and a whole bunch of other things. Bush pretended to be something he was not, but who the fuck was fooled by THAT? Why, Nader voters, who else? When Naderites say there isn't any difference between Gore and Bush, they compare their own mischaracterization of Gore with the Bush's centrist BS PR.

The Naderites, in fact, see democrats as the enemy and the party to supplant. Why else pretend that Bush didn't seem so bad, and take conservative money to get on the state ballots? Maybe the pure, pristine Naderites decided in the most political fasion that the enemy of their enemy was their friend as they took the cash in a cynical power play to get dirty money.

But at any rate, Naderites can't pretend that they didn't have any clue about the possible effect of Ralph's candidacy when the conservatives are deciding that a dolar is better spent going to the Nader campaign than the Bush campaign.

[TahitiNut]

66. Amen, m'luv!

Casting blame is always easier than shouldering responsibility.

[Tinoire]

101. Especially when you live in a glass house and are throwing stones

and lol, not just stones but BOULDERS ;)

[noiretextatique]

96. that's D.A.D.

Democrats Against Democracy, DU Chapter :7

[Tinoire]

102. The same chapter that's pushing me straight out of the Democratic

party and into the arms of a third party.





"I see stupid people...
they're everywhere...
they walk around like everyone else...
they don't even know that they're dumb"

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[Independent_Liberal]

29. That was a nice thing for Nader to do.

Even though I thought Nader made a mistake by running in the last two elections, he's still a decent man and he's done a lot of good things. I know a lot of people think he cost Gore the election in 2000, but if Bush was going to cheat to get in, I guess it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

I think Ralph is a good activist. I just hope he doesn't run again in 2008. Mainly because it would be unrealistic and he knows he has no chance of ever winning.

[Caleb]

30. Dear Ralph

Go f*ck yourself.

[Enraged_Ape]

34. It cannot be denied: This is a great letter.

Sincere thanks to Ralph for keeping Cindy and her cause at the forefront of the news.

Cindy Sheehan, with every passing minute, is showing that our Commander in Cheap is the most miserable coward on this planet.

[Canadiana]

38. Wow I never realized...

The Nader issue was SOOO heated here. Obviously, I am new...

I think the fact of the matter is that in an ideal world, it wouldn't be a two party system. But this is not an ideal world. And if perhaps in elections to come, when one side isn't an evil murderer you would like to vote for that long shot third party, go ahead. But people are dying. This is not the time. Nader shouldn't have ran and taken votes...period.

Having said that, it is a nice gesture by Nader, but I can see why there is some animosity towards the man.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

41. and why aren't gore and kerry voicing support for her?

answer that one, ralph haters

[DURHAM D]

48. Because they are too decent to grandstand on someone's

grief, unlike Ralphie.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

56. they can't even endorse her?

that's grandstanding?!?


ok, now you're just living in some fantasy world where the party line is always right

[DURHAM D]

63. Telling me I am following the party line ...? You don't know me

so you can just f-off.

But for the record, how do you know that Kerry and Gore have not privately voiced support to her - a much more decent way to handle this matter. Esp. for Gore - he is not in office. If Ralph wanted to do the supportive thing he should have written her a personal note - and not released it to the press. A decent person would have left it up to Cindy on going public. He is not decent - he is just an obvious glory hound. Once again - his 15 minutes of attention is the only thing that is important to him. The last good thing he did was for Corvair drivers.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

68. so she doesn't need to be publicly supported then?

i guess someone better clue her in and get her off those radio shows and hide her from the cameras

and i don't have to know you to see a fallacy in your reasoning. no need to take it so hostile

[DURHAM D]

94. That's rich - go back and read all of your hostile posts.

I see the theme - you like being an outlier. Enjoy.

[Catrina]

90. I agree

I don't see how it's grandstanding to express support for the mother of a son who died in war when she asks a US president, NOT A KING, to answer a simple question.

I don't think it was grandstanding for Rep. Conyers and the 15 others who signed his letter, to show his support for her.

15!! Out of how many?? How sad that we have virtually zero representation. How easy it would be for some of them to say 'President Bush, you have disrespected every, single American, including over one hundred members of Congress and half a million citizens, by not even acknowledging their respectful letters to you. You now have a chance to show some respect for the troops and speak to this mother who will live the rest of her life without the son she lost in your war'.

I think any Democrat could jump on this as 'Have you no decency sir' moment! But, alas, as usual, only the same few Democrats have stepped up, yet again.

Ralph Nader is well known, it's fine by me that he has spoken out. I hope he finds his way onto one of our cowardly news channels to speak about Cindy's Vigil. I have serious doubts about seeing any of our so-called representatives doing so.

[Tactical Progressive]

112. They have a much higher profile than that

What do you want, them down in the roadside camp with a graphic anti-Bush t-shirt on and a placard in their hands?

They shouldn't be getting involved in something so political and so personal. If asked they would, and should, probably say something innocuous like 'The President gets to decide who gets an audience.', throwing it right back into Bush's lap. Or 'The questions surrounding why we are in Iraq remain troubling for alot of people.'

It's not their place in that fight, it would be counterproductive, it would take focus away from Moms and veterans where it belongs.

[sunnystarr]

43. Nader's letter is eloquent, right on, and great.

I also hated that he ran, but he had every right to run and I'll be the last to deny constitutional rights for any reason to anyone. I may not agree, may not like it, may get frustrated, and may cuss at the TV (which I did). That doesn't take away from Nader's lifetime of service and accomplishments. For those too young to remember, google him.

[katinmn]

80. We can't blame 00 and 04 all on Nader. The elections were stolen

He made some good points, including:

Even with the mass-media at his disposal everyday, he now represents a minority of public opinion.

[Vinnie From Indy]

44. Nader Is Pathetic

His egomania is astounding

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

59. at least he notices her

unlike our bush-enabling 'democratic' friends in the senate who haven't lifted a finger-or the dems in the house (congressional black congress, as usual, being the only exception)

[ignatius 2]

49. A "mission for the soul of the country." That is a beautiful phrase

but I have to admit I am still pissed at Nader and the Greens for making the 2000 election so close that Bush could so easily cheat.

[McCamy Taylor]

67. Nader shares *'s guilt for all the deaths in Iraq. In 2000, I sent Nader

a letter in which I predicted that * would start a war in the mideast in order to consolidate his power at home and that the deaths would be on Nader's head. If I, an ordinary citizen could predict that, then Nader, who pretends to be a politician, should have been able to predict that , but no, he justified his spoiler run for president by claiming that Bush and Gore were the "same."

Of course, we all know that Nader does not know jack shit about politics or * or anything except seat belts. He is a fool who was too much a fool to know that he was fucking with the lives of foreign and American citizens. Or maybe he was just too damn burned out to care.

Man, after 5 years, I still cant get over what he did. Maybe if he ever showed an ounce of remorse, it would be different. But he is just as bad as * with his freaking "Noble cause."

Now there is a thought. Maybe Nader and * are more the same than people realize. They are both too scared to admit they made a mistake and say "I'm sorry" so they keep burying themselves deeper and deeper in the holes they have dug.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

71. the dems voted for the war-nader didn't

and i'm sure you had no problem when poppy bush's boating pal, bill clinton, bombed iraq

[Tinoire]

132. Nope. They're as pure as the driven slush. n/t

[bvar22]

78. Good on you, Ralph.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to stand UP for Cindy, and stand AGAINST the immoral and illegal War on the Iraqi People!

[jhain]

79. Excellent, excellent.

No matter your opinion of Mr Nader- this is an excellent, much needed sentiment.

[H5N1]

84. Perhaps a Nader expert can clear this up for me:

Did Ralph Nader say that he would not
appear on the ballot in those states where
Gore/bush were close and then appear on those ballots
anyway?

If true, that seems pretty damning to me.

(I have to go. I hope someone responds.
I would like to know the facts.)

[H5N1]

87. It is an excellent letter: where are the support letters from my Dems?

[Tinoire]

133. None forthcoming. They don't want to grandstand on Bush's joy. n/t

[bvar22]

89. Lets ask Cindy how she feels about Nader's support.

“They cannot ignore me now because I am one voice with a million eyes. They cannot shut me down because you the bloggers are helping me. I never thought one person could make a difference, but now I think that one person with a million bloggers behind them can change this country.” She added that Ralph Nader had contacted her and is putting out a letter to his supporters today including a call to action."---Cindy Sheehan 8/10/05

Sounds like Cindy is glad to have Nader's support.

[ulysses]

92. she must not be a real Dem, then.

Down with Cindy Sheehan! She didn't condemn Ralph Nader as the antichrist! Boo!

:sarcasm:

[Tinoire]

100. Yeah but Cindy can fortunately reason & is neither spineless nor stupid

Just think, if she were like all the Democrats that we're supposed to be admiring, she'd be as silent as a tomb. Wouldn't even be saying "boo".


Thank God that, like many of the more Progressive members of this thread, she realizes that it would be folly to shove Nader aside and hold her breath waiting for the Godot Democrats.

God once again... There goes Nader, making the spineless ones look bad! That's his real crime... making silent, invisible, spineless Dems look baaaad.

[Tactical Progressive]

97. I think what Ralph means

is that 'there's not a dime's worth of difference' between what this country is now and what it would be if Clinton or Gore had been running it.

He sure convinced alot of young people that it was true. He sure convinced alot of my fellow progressives that that was the way to play politics. And he got 100,000 Floridians to swing to his tune in 2000.

So thanks Ralph; the honesty of your substance and the deftness of your politics, have meant so very much to us for this past half-decade and for three more years into the future. In fact, I think that the message was so strong and had so much impact, that you can afford to shut the fuck up for the next three years at least.

Just some thoughts from a previously Nader admirer who's put a ten-year smackdown on Nader for his actions in 2000.

[ulysses]

104. and on it goes.

Never mind Iran. Never mind Rove and Plame. Never mind Hackett. Never mind 1800+ dead. Never mind CAFTA...oh shit, especially never mind CAFTA!

It's all Ralph's fault!

[Peace Patriot]

105. Well, I'm sure the Freepers will love to read this thread: the left...

carping at the left. And such language!

This is called displacement. The Bush Cartel pulls a fascist coup, stealing two elections in a row, and grabbing all the reigns of government to enforce the views of a crazy, thuggish minority, and you save your nastiest language and hatred for...?

Nader was right. I didn't vote for him either time. But he was right about Gore and the NAFTA agenda. Clinton/Gore are as responsible for the outsourcing of millions of jobs, and for the destruction of our economy, and of peoples' lives and communities, as Bush is. And he was right about Kerry, on corporatization, and on the war--and on the general lack of principle (such as on torture)--from the Kerry/Edwards campaign and from the pro-global free piracy, pro-war Democratic Party leadership. And he had every right to run for president and to say so. I'm glad he did. I think there is absolutely no relationship whatsoever between Nader running for president and this junta grabbing power by purging black voters from the voting rolls, and staging a riot, and purchasing the Supreme Court, in 2000, and by two Bushite electronic voting companies tabulating all the votes using secret, proprietary software, in 2004.

It is ridiculous to blame Bush's war on Nader. You might as well blame it on Howard Dean for yelling too loud at a campaign rally (while failing to blame the news monopolies who manipulated the tape). Or blame it on John Kerry for "reporting for duty" at the convention with his cute little salute. Boy, did that turn people off! Or the DNC for putting the antiwar protesters into a orange cage outside the convention. How many votes did that lose them? I hope you can see how absurd this is.

Some think we could have won with a real antiwar candidate and populist. Or if Kerry had done this or that. But it's not so--not with Diebold and ES&S counting the votes in secret. I mean, come on. THAT IS WILDLY AND TOTALLY WRONG. We had a totally invalid, non-transparent, unverifiable election in 2004.

Let me just give you a stat: 58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war BEFORE the invasion. I'll never forget that number. Feb. '03. Before all the lies were exposed, before all the horror and the costs were known. 58%. Across the board in all polls.

The great majority of Americans didn't trust Bush THEN, way back then.

You can't tell me that the American people then voted for these criminals and thieves. I don't believe it. And the facts and the numbers back me up.

I don't think they voted for them in 2000 either. I think there were major shenanigans by the Bushites even back then, and not just in Florida. Knowing what we now know about THIS election, we can look back and make some good guesses about both the 2000 and 2002 election, and, over the four year period, see the rightwing votes go up as American opinion of Bush and all of his policies goes down. It doesn't add up.

If you look at the issue polls over the last year, for instance, you find that the great majority of Americans disapprove of every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic, way up in the 60% to 70% range. You name it. The Iraq war. Torture policy (63% of Americans oppose torture UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES--May '04). Social Security. The deficit. Women's rights. Major, major opposition. WHERE is Bush's "mandate"? WHERE is his support?

The Democrats blew the Republicans away in new voter registration in 2004, nearly 60/40. How did that happen? It happened by Gore 2000 voters getting all their non-voting family members, co-workers and friends to register and vote for the first time, because "this is the most important election in our history." Highly motivated voters, all. Plus highly motivated volunteers. Most of the new voters voted for Kerry. Most of the independents voted for Kerry. Most of the former Nader voters voted for Kerry. Who else is there? Bush 2000 voters and ...? Karl Rove's "invisible" get-out-the-vote campaign? Right.

Again, it doesn't add up. And it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RALPH NADER or either of his campaigns.

This is what we have to face. We have been DISENFRANCHISED. And we have some of our own party leaders to blame for their utter negligence and corruption--most particularly, as to 2002 and 2004, on the electronic voting boondoggle.

It's THIS that we have to deal with. Not hating Nader--who is generally dead on, on the issues. How to get our votes COUNTED. How to get transparent, verifiable elections. We, the antiwar Left, ALREADY HAVE THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY ON OUR SIDE, and have since February 2003!

[Tinoire]

125. What an excellent post.

Awed!

Yours is the thoughtful kind of post that attracted me to DU years ago.

Thank you!

[Gay Green]

128. Wicked awesome post! Woo-hoo!

You put a LOT of thought into it, Peace Pat. You are CORRECT: only the freepers benefit and become happy when we tear into each other.

[Catholic Sensation]

106. Good to see that for some people here it's entirely about supporting

Ms. Sheehan in her mission :eyes:

some of you are straight up unbelievable

[A-Schwarzenegger]

111. What sublimely unadulterated gall

from Mr. No Diff Between Repubes & Dems. Sleep well, Ralph.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

113. Well, thanks for all you did to help put him there in the first place

you coattail-riding lackey.

Piss off.

[patrice]

114. Does Nader write his own? This is a really excellent letter!!

Harebo!

[BrklynLiberal]

115. If Nader had not been such a self-serving egomaniac during the

elections, maybe Cindy Sheehan would not have had to lose her son.

To me, this is just another publicity ploy by Nader, and he is just cashing in on her tragedy. He is following in the footsteps of the Repuke politicians who cashed in on the Schiavo case to make hay for themselves.

:nopity: Tell your story walking Ralph...

[Q]

116. Those attacking...

...Nader should be ashamed for acting like mindless partisans.

There are many reasons why Bush is in the White House instead of Gore. Nader played an insignificant role and it's sickening the way too many democrats still refuse to place the blame where it belongs: Bush and his political mafia.

You do neither history or the Democratic party any good when you join with the revisionists in ignoring the truth about the 2000 election.

[mirandapriestly]

118. I'm With You nt

[meganmonkey]

119. I am going to agree with you

and avoid reading this thread so I don't get grumpy...

;)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

120. Uh, fuck Nader AND Bush.

2 thoughts at the same time! Wow!

[Q]

123. Nader has never been the issue...

It's always been about the Bush Mafia stealing Democracy and the Democrats doing nothing about it. Explain THAT to your children and grandchildren.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

124. There are many "issues" involved in Bush stealing the WH...

Nader's one. Try it: more than one thought in brain at once.
It won't kill you.

[LoZoccolo]

130. Insignificant? What the fuck?

He had the votes to put Gore over the line what do you mean "insignificant"?!

[Q]

134. What about the Dems that actually voted for Bush?

It seems to me that they had a bigger problem than the Nader voters.

I'm just shocked at the immaturity of the thought process that places blame on a minor player in the 2000 'election'.

It's as if some are actually searching for an excuse not to face the reality that our system of elections is corrupt to the core. Perhaps it's a sign of a party's failure to comprehend that their leadership is driving voters away with a weak agenda?

Watch the movie 'Unprecedented' and take another look at the mountains of evidence that prove election fraud in 2000 and try to put the whole thing into proper perspective.

Thousands of Blacks were PURGED from voting in the 2000 election by the Bush Mafia...including Jeb 'crow' Bush. I wonder how many of THEM blame Nader instead of Bush?

[LoZoccolo]

135. Blah blah blah blah.

None of this trying to other factors justifies these people who chose to work against their own agenda, nor does it lend any rationality to what they did.

I've heard it all before, and yet all it is is a distraction from the question about why anyone would vote for third parties for any reason other than vanity.

[Inland]

141. Fuck them too.

Nobody's going to hold democrats voting for Bush as liberal heroes, or pretend that they aren't responsible for their votes.

And I hope that today, such democrats have the good sense to be ashamed and apologetic, and if not, to leave the party.

But for those proud Naderites who would do it all again....Seeya. Leave, goodbye, take off. If you would take Bush over Gore, or don't understand how Nader put Bush over the top, then you aren't going to understand any better in the future, and you might as well go now.

[Miss Chybil]

127. "oil marinated doors" - I like that. nt