Are sexual predators mentally ill?

[Guaranteed]

I've heard many arguments mentioning the fact that sexual predators are extremely likely to repeat their predatory activities once let out of prison as a result of there being something organically wrong in their brains. It's actually the justification for keeping them in prison forever, when I hear it, usually.

But, doesn't that sound like a mental illness? I've worked with the mentally ill, and while I think it's kind of insulting to them to classify sexual predators in the same arena as those with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, for example, if there is a real, organic basis for sexual predation, do you think it should be treated like a mental illness? Would we perhaps be more effective in reducing it if it were treated that way?

[liberalnurse]

1. No, they are "sick" but not clinically ill.

Their behavior is pre-meditated and pleasurable to them. They get a thrill out of victimizing as it gives them a sense of power.


There are some who are seeded by shame and must dump or transfer that shame onto another. They were victimized themselves and are consumed by the shame....really.

[wakeme2008]

4. see #3 nt

[Guaranteed]

5. I understand what you're saying about the chain effect.

I actually wrote a paper addressing a very similar concept after reading a novel in college (one that many here have probably read). The whole loss of innocence thing, and trying to steal others'....

[liberalnurse]

12. I went to a seminar / all day workshop on sexual boundaries

and sexual offenders etc... Pia Melody was one of the speakers. it was around 1990. I found her boundaries lecture phenomenal. I was working with adolescents in rehabilitation at the time. I used her tapes as a tool for teaching the kids healthy boundaries.

[barb162]

26. Okay, are you saying they should get jail time or hospital time

or both

[liberalnurse]

30. Essentially, I see them as a lost cause.

At one time there was hope but then, I have worked with so many young victims that my stance has hardened. I'd throw money and time to preventing future predators by working with the victims.

I've met many offenders and once they have set-up their game, they can't go back. Way too narcissistic and manipulative.I support life in prison without parole....

[barb162]

31. Well, I am glad you wrote that

I view them the same way.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. Nearly all of them have histories of having themselves

been subjected to early sexual abuse. Very often their modal victims are the same age as they were when they were first abused.

My basis for making these claims? I have done psychological evaluations of a few of them. Like maybe 500 in the past 20 years.

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. If it were treated as a mental illness...

then what would be different? You'd have these people being involuntarily committed to an institution where they'd spend their lives on a locked ward, which really isn't that different than prison. And considering funding cuts to mental health institutions, and the charming practice of turning out the mentally ill onto the streets to shift for themselves, I don't so much see that it would result in any effective reduction of the problem.

[Guaranteed]

9. Well, the difference would be in the treatment.

Mentally ill people who are institutionalized are actually treated, full-time, for their illness. They at least have a chance of overcoming it, as opposed to being exposed to an environment (prison) that doesn't even pretend to try to rehabilitate them.

The difference is in the approach, and the possibilities for recovery (if any).

And research. If approached in this manner, research on the issue would be greatly increased.

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. I can see problems with that, too...

considering that if it's found that there's a neurological basis for this behaviour (difference in structure of the temporal and prefrontal lobes, for instance) it could lead to advocation of neurosurgical techniques as "treatment" (which seems a bit sticky, ethically speaking). And if the basis is genetic, then it would be used to justify eugenics.

And then there's the question of what percentage of so-called "sexual predators" are, in fact, effectively damaged in such wise that their actions may be said to be beyond their conscious control; if the condition is similar to that of, say, serial killers who feel an insuperable compulsion to their horrible actions (and there are enough documented cases of that, certainly) then it seems that rehabilitation may be too much to hope for, as would be treatment; separation from the rest of the population, in order to prevent their impulses from being acted upon, is unfortunately in this case the best solution, it seems.

[Guaranteed]

11. Absolutely. All of your points are valid.

They're actually problems with mental illness in general. Attribution of behavior starts getting difficult once we're heading down that road.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Definitely a slippery slope.

Although in the case of some conditions, I'd say that part of the problem is too rigid a definition of what constitutes "normality". This is something I've considered at some length...with reason (I'm autistic; I have Asperger's Syndrome). I'd say that in the case of some conditions, which cause no real harm to either those who have them (from an objective rather than subjective viewpoint) or to society in general, there should be a relaxation of some standards to allow for what could be called "deviation within acceptable limits".

Not to mention that to some extent classification of some types of mental illness seems to be more subjective than objective...what some would perceive as eccentricity, others may see as madness.

This is all a bit off the main point, of course...sorrry for the tangent.

[Guaranteed]

18. No, you're making great points.

You're not off the main point at all.

I think what psychology is coming to, or has come to, is the standard of functionality. In order for someone to be classified as mentally ill, legally (but not criminally), it has to simply be shown that they just can't take care of themselves, for mental, as opposed to physical, reasons.

Though, that standard also creates a lot of problems because there are so many out there with no symptoms of serious mental illness, while having severely limited functional capacities for one reason or another. Quite often these people who can't seem to take care of themselves end up getting caught up in the mental health system regardless of their lack of serious mental illness, which may or may not be justified, the right place for them to be, or helpful to them.

As for autism, I welcome it (barring it being severe). I actually think of autism (and there's been speculation from my mother, a professional in the field, that I'm slightly autistic) as part of our specie's evolution. I think the cause of it is heavily genetic (as opposed to Thymerosol), and I further think that the new ideas that those who could be diagnosed with autism bring to our world are EXTREMELY important.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. And of course, part of the evolution of that "standard of functionality"..

can be directly traced to changes in our society over the past century or so. At one time, those who were for whatever reason incapable of taking care of themselves were likely to be supported by their extended families, and tolerated for their differences; those extended familial support networks just aren't there anymore, and so now these people end up shunted into long-term care or group homes, instead. Which means that a good part of our current view of mental illness and threatment thereof is due to social conditions as much as anything else.

And I think that autism can can be a positive...at least, in its high-functioning forms; witness the cases of Einstein and Newton (speculated to have been autistic). That's what I mean by "deviation within acceptable limits"; it isn't necessary, or even a GOOD thing, for everyone to be a "normal, well-adjusted", outgoing and socially skilled extrovert.

[Guaranteed]

24. Emphatically agreed, thoroughly. nt

[wakeme2008]

3. Not really

In 95% of all cases

Spouse abusers go back to abusing their spouses if they are there.

Drug users go back to using drugs

drinkers go back to drinking.

auto thieves go back to stealing cars or something....

[etherealtruth]

6. Though I'm NOT ...

...a mental health professional, I too see parallels .... the problem I have is how do we protect society from the actions of these people?

My understanding is that treatment is not effective for most of these people (I would love to read the input from someone who is involved in this area).

If it is truly a mental disorder we still have an obligation to protect society at large.

I guess I have no answers ... only questions.

[pitohui]

7. statistics

the statistics don't support the claim that sexual predators are fated to re-offend

they re-offend at no higher rates than anyone else, and at lower rates than thieves, maybe search the archives, the statistics have been linked and posted before, although hooted down because people prefer to believe urban myth

sexual offenders may have a wide range of mental illnesses, the alzheimer's patient who attacks women in the nursing home is not the same DX as the impulse disordered person who once grabbed a stranger's boob, clearly, the first is unlikely to be responsive to treatment because he has a degenerating condition, the second may be responsive once he learns his actions have consequences, every case is individual

my 2 cents

[cally]

8. I think some is a mental illness

but some is social deviance. When 13 year old girls are models and dressed as adult women, it's not that much of a stretch to find young teens sexually attractive. Add on the training that women are there for the taking or that men can't control their sexual urges (note--I don't believe that men or women can't control themselves just that some messages in society push this notion), then sexual deviants are just pushing societal norms. I think our society and how we deal with sexuality is very sick. We don't celebrate women and men's bodies but glorify pubescent teens' bodies. Too many think that immaturity is normal. I think it leads to much sexual deviance.

[marcus_b]

13. Re: "Are sexual predators mentally ill?"

It's an important question, because in making the judgment, we try to resolve a conflict between the security of the (potential) victims and the human rights of the (past, potentially future) offender.

But it is not an easy question. Much is known about this, on a strictly empirical basis, but little is known with scientific precision. As with all issues regarding human nature.

I am certainly no expert in this matter, and I don't have any good references, but here are things I heard repeatedly, maybe they can serve as a starting point for some extended research you would have to do yourself. If you are looking for biological, organic factors influencing the tendency for (sexual) violence, you might look at testosterone levels in male offenders. There may be a correlation between the two. There may be other genetic influences like that, too.

However, our life is not solely determined by our genetic heritage. A lot is also developed behavior, from our childhood on. For example, there may be a correlation between somatosensory (tactile) deprivation and violence. In boiler plate this would mean that if as a child you are deprived of being hugged, kissed, touched, by your parents, then this can lead to abnormal behavior, including (sexual) violence. Apparently, there is even a correlation between tactile deprivation and "conservative values" like "violence is necessary to really solve our problems" or "physical punishment and pain help build a strong moral character" (Body Pleasure and the Origins Of Violence by James W. Prescott, 1975).

I would be extremely cautious passing any knee-jerk judgments on this very complex issue. I would also expect that in extreme cases more than one thing has to come together to form a certain behavior. Also, understanding the cause of (sexually) violent behavior does not tell us anything about another important question you raised, namely if such behavior can be changed and treated, if it is organic or developed. I would certainly expect that some cases can be treated, but I would also fully expect that some cases simply can't, and this poses difficult questions for the society in how to deal with that.

[Guaranteed]

15. It's important to note that we're also trying to solve the problem,

though.

While we are trying to strike a balance between the security of victims and the rights of the offenders, I think really the most important aspect of this discussion is the potential to actually *reduce* the incidence of sexual predation by addressing the causal factors, be they psychological, organic, or otherwise.

[marcus_b]

19. Right.

It's true, and I think there are good reasons for that. It seems to me pretty obvious that as a society, we are over-all better off if we are able reintegrate a criminal back into society.

However, there is a trap here, which is exploited by the conservative movement, and we should be very clear about avoiding it. Especially with crimes of violence, and in particular sexual violence, the protection of the victims, and potential future victims, must be regarded as very important and a high priority. I am sure everybody will agree to that.

The problem here is that we rely in our judgment on experts, and there can be negative side effects in a relationship of a doctor and the patient, which causes a bias in the doctors judgment. As I said, it is very difficult.

As I said, I am no expert on the matter. But my personal feeling is that if in doubt, I think it is acceptable to put constraints on the known offender, if they are useful in preventing more crimes.

[Iris]

16. criminally insane?

Is that even a category anymore?

[Deja Q]

17. Predators going after children do a GREAT DEAL OF HARM.

trust me.

Keep them locked up. If it is an illness then treat them kindly but keep them away from ANY child or anything child-related. It's half-fascist but some of us end up with big scars on our souls.

[Guaranteed]

20. Right. The idea is to address the cause.

If it's a mental illness, wouldn't it be better for us to get to the root of it to prevent it?

[Deja Q]

21. Naturally.

And while we're working on the cause, something should be done about the perps until we can find a cure.

Of course, how one goes about the preventative aspect is best up to debate. Guilty before innocence and all that...

[marcus_b]

22. Two levels of cause.

It's always better to attack a problem at a root, but what does that mean specifically?

If we are talking about individuals, then a treatment (assuming an illness), may be possible, but it may also not be possible. There are people which, for all we know, can not be healed. We can try to improve the therapies, but that would be something for the future to look for.

Now, if you are talking about prevention, then I think there is a lot you can do. For example, you can try to improve child care, by education and by giving help to families in difficult social conditions. But that is something which can only have an effect in at least a generation ahead. Nevertheless, I think this is of utmost importance, obviously, not only for prevention of crimes, but for raising the social standard of the whole society.

Still, there is bound to be a limit to what we can do. If we don't even understand all causes of such behavior, how can we hope to eliminate them?

[Heddi]

25. I've heard that pedophillia is as hardwired as sexual orientation

and therefore not a mental illness, but more of a mental mis-wiring of sorts.

In fact, pedophillia IS their sexual orientation.

Some people are straight and have fantasies and sexual relationships with people of the opposite sex.

Some people are homosexual and have fantasies and sexual relationships with people of the same sex.

Some people are bisexual and have fantasises and sexual relationships with people of both the same and opposite sex.

Pedophiles are people who have fantasies about and sexual relationships with children.

----

The high rate of recidivism has to do with (imo) the fact that sexual orientation is determined before birth. YOu cannot make a "straight" person gay, you cannot make a "gay" person straight, and you cannot make a "pedophile" normal. It's hardwired and unchangable.

The difference, though, between pedophillia and the 'normal' sexual orientations is that normal sexual orientation does not, for the most part, consist of preying upon innocent people who are not able to consent to the relationship. Normal sexual orientation does not revolve around criminal activity.

I don't know what there is to do for someone who is a pedophile but who has not been caught. I don't know if there are any 'signs' that one is a pedophile aside from armchair psychiatrists saying "Gee, he spends too much time with the kids after practice". Maybe he's a doting coach, maybe he's a buggerer. Who knows until he or she does something.

However, at the point that pedophillia is discovered (through the acting out of sexual aggression against a child), I do believe that the pedophile in question should be locked up for a very, very, very long time.

THere are few crimes as heinous as child sexual abuse and child sexual rape and child sexual molestation. The victims of these crimes live with these crimes in ways that victims of robbery, kidnapping, etc, do not (at least not to the degree and percentage that chld victims do).

I do not believe in chemical castration---I know first hand that it does not take an erect penis to molest a child.

I believe in very long jail sentences. THere is no chance of rehabilitating these people because you cannot rehabilitate a sexual orientation. We see high number of failures with regards to homosexuals who go to 'retraining camps' to become straight. They cannot function as a straight man or woman when they are wired to be homosexual or bisexual.

I believe the same is true for pedophillia. They do not see children as 'children', but rather fully consenting humans that are more than happy to be in sexual relationships with adults. They see nothing wrong with what they do, which makes it hard to 'rehabilitate' someone for their crime.

There is no rehabilitation for them. They are who they are and they must be locked up for many years because of their crimes. THe rate of reoffending is upwards of 80%, and that's just the reoffenders we know about and that are re-caught.

IT's also known that by the time a pedophile is caught for the first time, they have generally offended at least 30 times prior to their being caught.

They are not curable. They are not like schizophrenics or manic depressives. There isn't a chemical imablance, and there isn't a pill or a therapy that will rid them of their destructive thoughts and actions. Their brain is wired in a way different from ours, and as to date there has been no long-term successful therapy and/or pharmaceutical combination that not only prevents a pedophile from reoffending but ALSO (and most importantly) to rid themselves of the thoughts regarding children as being sexual beings.

[Finder]

44. Very good points, however...

not all pedophiles commit a crime, nor are all child predators pedophiles by definition.

Like rape, the crime is often about power and not sex.

Just the fact that many who commit the crime were victims themselves lends credibility to the theory of the perp being mentally/emotionally ill. Until society can separate moral judgement and truly research what causes these people to commit such crimes, we will never know for sure.

Look at how a 22yo priest who had an encounter with a 15 yo is considered in the same category as a 50 yo man raping and murdering a 6yo girl.

[stepnw1f]

27. Appears to Be

What makes a person do something over and over again knowing full well it is morally and legally wrong. Doing something over and over with the same results sounds crazy to me.

[patcox2]

28. Yes. That fact becomes viscerally obvious if you know one.

I once worked with a lawyer, a partner in my firm. A respected, decent, honest man, a great father and husband.

Then suddenly he was gone. He had been arrested, twice in the space of a month, for trying to lure kids into his car.

Its shocking to see up close. You are struck with a big question. What would drive a man to ruin his life, destroy a succesful career, destroy his family?

Nobody does something like that just for the pleasure of getting his nut off. Thats some kind of powerful compulsion. Far beyond just being a pervert and enjoying sex with kids, its very obviously something deeper than that. Everyone has a sex drive, and its one of the most powerful of human appetites, but the overwhelming majority are not rapists. The overwhelming majority of people are not slaves to their sex drives. These people are subject to a compulsion far deeper than that.

Just because there is no known biological cause does not lessen that. There are plenty of mental aberrations with no known biological cause that are treated as illnesses. This is a pathology, not a lifestyle choice.

[steve2470]

32. Yes, they are.

However, their mental illness is more like an addiction (with apologies to recovering addicts and alcoholics). They cannot (or will not) resist their compulsion to touch, etc. inappropriate sexual "objects", namely juveniles. All the evidence says they cannot be cured. Perhaps they can keep their illness in check with continuous treatment, but I think the vast majority of them will wind up dead or in prison forever.

[anarch]

33. are all criminals mentally ill?

A 'normal' person wouldn't rob somebody on the street, right? Or steal a car, or break into somebody's house and rob it, and so on.

I dunno...I think there are all kinds of problems, not only with our mental health classifications, but with our criminal justice system too.

Personally, I think they're just assholes. If there's one group of people I refuse to coddle in any way, it's sexual predators. I think they're just weak and cowardly, more than anything else. You can't go calling anybody who makes a choice to do something they damn well know is wrong 'mentally ill'.

[Demonaut]

34. no, its more a physical issue, just cut off the diseased organ

it should reduce the swelling in the affected area:evilgrin:

[MattSWin]

35. yes and no....

They are sexual deviants which is a form of mental illness. All these sexual deviants wo kidnap, rape, and kill young children are typically pathological sociopaths.

I think they "suffer" from severe antisocial personality disorders. I'm in no way saying they don't understand the difference between right and wrong.

I think the key difference between calling these killers mentally ill and calling someone who kills a cheating spouse is that these people are incapable of feeling sadness or guilt about their crimes.

Anybody can kill someone and not be mentally ill but whether or not you feel guilt is beyond your control, so you'd probably consider it a disorder.

[devilgrrl]

36. No but most sexual predators seem to be Republican

I'm just saying...

[sweetheart]

37. Arn't the prey of sexual predators adults?

If we're talking about consensual sex here, however driven certain
partners are to get laid, is that not just another experience in life.

I doubt there is a person alive who would NOT want to have a good shag
if the opportunity arose. And between that, we have lots of social
taboos.... whatever.... so the crime is wanting to shag, whilst war
criminals are left to mass murder as our leadership.... its all upside
down.

[MattSWin]

38. what are you talking about...

??

[sweetheart]

39. I'm saying that...

If people are adults who want to fuck, and that some partners out there
are sexual predators, does that really change anything?

If our culture does not respect free will, then please show me the
exit, as i've chosen to hang with the wrong crowd.

(this is not to excuse underaged crimes and all that stuff... just,
presuming that all readers are innocent, implies that sexual
predator would be a consenting adult who likes sex)

[MattSWin]

41. by sexual predator...

We mean people who prey on children to have sex with.

We're not talking about people who just like sex.

[sweetheart]

42. Is it wrong to desire a 15 years old?

All of us have seen a HOT young sex pot walking down the street, and the
first primal reaction of a human body is not to ask "how old" but
a more primal urge of attraction. The human mind then cuts in with
override triggers, of what is appropriate given laws and social station.

Yet outside of those laws is the truth, and were i underage, and it was
the truth to have sex with someone older, i would.

As an overaged person, i could care less. I'd rather have some good
food and a intelligent conversation. People are too hung up on their
sweaty genetals that they've missed sophitocation.

Sexual predators are a culture of preying on the young, as much as the
bush nazi imperium kills young soldiers and eats their souls to survive,
the predator feeds on the dynamism of youth... and in old age, unable
to produce youth themselves, feed on other peoples youth.

Does it matter whether the predators are sexual or some army recruitment
perverts focusing on recruting underaged teenagers for murder and
grand larceny. THe whole culture has become like this, a series of
predators, and everyone with bits of bone and muscle between their
teeth of the last young child they've consumed in their covetous hunger.

:-)

Make love, not war.

[MattSWin]

43. It's nothing to do with culture...

People who have sex with children are pathological.

It has nothing to do with military recruiters or Bush being President.

Thinking a 15 year old who looks older is sexy is perfectly normal but using their mental immaturity in order to get sex or being attracted to physical immaturity are both abnormal and pathological.

[sweetheart]

47. Poor socialization at young childhood

I see it as a systemic failure of the process of raising children in our
culture. When a parent spends full time raising a young child, they
caress their bodies, love them to bits and nurture them 24x7 for years.
This produces a being comfortable with its body, feeling whole, natural
and relaxed about sexuality.

Instead, we strip away the mother after 2 weeks and dump the kid on
childcare, what can be expected. The current generation of sexual
predators owes itself to systemic child poverty, poor social services,
bad parenting and a cultural habit towards abuse, that is "systemic".

We abuse other cultures, women, homosexuals, city dwellers, old people,
iraqi people, afgani people, french people, black people, ethnic
people, buddhists, hindus, taoists, muslims, jews and non-prodestant
denominations. Jamm all the taxes in to big bombs and mass murder
people every 2 years to feel complete in our abusive pathology.

There is a system of abuse, and sexual problems are just another symtom.

Welcome to DU MattSWin, its good to see inspired writers. :-)

[Guaranteed]

49. 15?

A little iffee....I'd say 16 is a sure thing. That's well past puberty. Sexual attraction is totally natural then.

Now, that's not to say that it is right to act on it. 15 and 16-year-olds are too young to give genuine consent, so it's wrong.

But, like my man R.P. (see left) said, it ain't crazy to WANT to. You just gotta keep it in check.

[sweetheart]

50. smell and flowers

Different species of animals have opposite sexes doing the hormone work,
much like some birds have the male as the sexual attractor. And
amongst humans, age never was a constraint on tossing around some
pooty.

Desire all consuming, is something that rushes through the blood like
heroin. Presuming that desire is "ours" is a process of identity,
of attachment that is something we "learn" not to act on.

Our culture has become so paranoid about child sex exploitation, that
it is paranoid about biological fact. At puberty, bodies emit strong
smells to reproduce. It comes earlier in some cases, and if we are
just our flesh and hormones, like animals acting of our lower speices,
then what can we expect.

And that is the republican view entirely, that we, collective "we", are
nothing but our baser instincts, our closeted desires, and that without
a society of mass murdering police threatening to shoot us at every
moment, higher society is inconceivable, a lost idyll, replaced by
a police state that has already determined us all guilty until proven
innocent.

[dr.strangelove]

40. What is "Mentally Ill"

I would argue that anyone who knowingly commits an act that is expected to result in harm to another person can not possibly be "all there." That said, just because your actions do not make sense does not make one mentally ill. We have a limited understanding of the human brain. I agree there probably is some organic difference between a criminal mind and a non-criminal mind, even if we can not classify that difference at this time. The difference is not properly classified as a treatable mental illness. If this organic difference will result in a person harming others, they need ot be removed from society. If they lack the ability to know what they are doing or know what they are doing is wrong, you probably do have a mental illness. A sexual predator knows what they are doing is wrong, which is why sexual predators try to hide their actions. Pedophiles don't grab little kids in the middle of the school yard and rip off their clothes, they take them into apartments or cars or vans, shower them with comic books or games. They know their actions are wrong. Whether or not this is the result of some chemical imbalance that we can not identify or treat makes no difference, these people are knowingly harming others and must be removed from society.

I have no room in my heart for sympathy for a sexual predator, rapists and pedophile are the lowest form of human life and are pure evil. I find myself sometimes leaning toward supporting the death penalty for these people, though I manage to pull back those feeling and instead hope for lifetime prison sentences.

[NashVegas]

45. It's Sociopathic Behavior

The refusal to respect others' boundaries.

A home for the criminally insane, perhaps.

[McCamy Taylor]

46. Its a double jeopardy issue. They are "sane" for maximum sentence,

then the court turns around and calls them "crazy" in order to confine them when they no longer have criminal grounds on which to incarcerate them.

This is because society somehow believes that insanity equals "innocence."

We need to reinstate the old "Criminally insane" category, so that pedophiles wont look like they are getting off the hook when they go to special treatment prisons for long term sentences rather than to routine prisons for long term sentences. Pedophiles actually perform better in a routine prison and are more likely to be exemplary or model prisoners who are let out on parole since no one is following their warped psyche and they have no kids to abuse. In a treatment prison they are evaluated by specialists who will be able to tell if they are making any real progress with their disease or not. They can fool a prison guard more easily than they can fool a trained psychologist.

[progressivebydesign]

48. It has to be a mental abnormality.. to want to hurt others. n/t