To all Nader haters

[Snotcicles]

Do you think you can answer these question honestly?
How would Nader have voted on N.A.F.T.A. and C.A F.T.A.?
How would Nader have voted on the bankruptcy bill?
How would Nader have voted on going to war in Iraq?
How would Nader have voted on the Energy Bill?
How would Nader have voted on environmental issues?
How much funding would Nader have put into public education?
How fast would he have gotten us heading in the direction of national health care?

And on and on and fucking on. Now answer the damn question HONESTLY.

[evermind]

1. If you answer this: How would Nader have got elected?

If he's not elected, he can't vote, right?

[sniffa]

2. does it matter?

he doesn't vote on any of these since he hoLds no office. maybe he couLd run for congress someday, and try to change things.

[WI_DEM]

3. yes, how would he have voted?

maybe he should have run for congress or senator rather than helping enable Bush's 2000 election.

[Snotcicles]

12. I think if the Dems

would not have gone into that panic right off that bat when he told us to relax, that two people going after the republicans was a stronger way to take them down, he was onto something. With Nader and Kerry or Dean or Clark, almost the same on all issues we would have had a stronger foundation. I think he would have had a big impact if he would have been aloud to debate, and probably would have thrown his support to the Dems.

2004 of course.

[DURHAM D]

4. Presidents don't vote. eom

[Snotcicles]

26. splitting hairs eom.

[ulysses]

5. you won't get an answer.

It's much easier, even now in 2005, to piss in your pants about Nader than to actually face the problems ahead.

[charlie]

10. I guess it probably feels good

when there's nothing better to do. Kinda like farting.

[ulysses]

11. my point exactly.

:D

[LittleClarkie]

45. Is he facing the issues ahead

I thought he was too busy dancing for Bush money

[Maru Kitteh]

55. I have no problems with worrying about the direction and content of the

Dem party AND mentally throwing a bucket of piss on Nader's selfish, egomanical ass at the same time.

I'm talented like that baby. Deal.

If Nader were SERIOUS about political and/or affecting change as opposed to self promotion and perpetual fund raising he would have EARNED himself an office by now.

He's a squeege.

[dhinojosa]

6. Get him to run for Congress and find out....

he is just an armchair quarterback as far as I am concerned.

[greendog]

23. I'd prefer an armchair quarterback...

...to one who's always turning the ball over to the other team.

[democracyindanger]

47. Exactly. How COULD Nader have voted?

Hard to do that without being in Congress.

[Cocoa]

7. Nader should run for Congress

what district should he run in?

[puerco-bellies]

8. The only thing that asswipe votes for is himself. n/t

[Gman]

9. Of course Nader would have voted NO

That doesn't change the fact that in 2000 Nader was personally responsible for making it possible for Bush to steal Florida and become king. Nader also made it possible for Bush to carry other states in 2000 he shouldn't have been close in.

[FreedomAngel82]

16. How do you know?

[Gman]

19. I know because I can read the numbers in the FL election results

Cool! A good Nader bashing thread! We haven't had a good one in a while!

[DemGirl7]

13. I have no problem with Nader's ideas

It's just 3rd parties are somewhat of a dead end street. I do have a problem with the fact that in the last election, he had to get a good amount of his money from the Republicans.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. Also the book he wrote

was funded by a rightwing group. He's just a rightwinger who spews crap easily at elections. He gets funded a lot by rightwingers. They were wanting him on the ballots not because they cared but because he would take away votes. :eyes: Nader can fuck off. I think it's arrogant of anyone to run for president and not hold any type of office before hand. How do you know what they're going to do and be like?

[RetroLounge]

14. He would have to win first

but instead he helped GWB get in office.

Fuck Ralph...

RL

[charlyvi]

15. Um. Your crystal ball is working properly, is it?

Honestly. You haven't a clue how Nader would have voted, as does no one else, Nader included. He has had the luxury of NEVER HAVING BEEN ELECTED TO ANYTHING! And I have a BIG problem with so-called pro worker Nader not allowing his own employees to organize. It's easy to talk the talk when you have nothing to lose; but the test comes when you act among many members of a legislative body--all of whom represtent their various constituents. Nader has never faced that test.

[European Socialist]

18. He was right about hybrid Democrats.

No wonder he went nuts. It's just cave-in after cave-in.

[Sparkly]

20. "Would Nader have ever voted for or against ANYthing?"

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but that's the question. He's never had to vote for anything, and never will. Makes it easy to talk.

[Hamlette]

21. 1. He wouldn't have gotten to do those things and 2. Gore wouldn't have

either and without Nader Gore would be our president!

Yeah, I hate him. He's an egomaniac. I'm glad he's behind Cindy. Most useful thing he's done in 15 years. Make that the ONLY useful thing he's done in 15 years.

He's a complete ideologue. Just like Bush but on the other end. They don't care about anyone but themselves and their pet "causes."

[tedoll78]

22. A question for you: Whom would Nader have appointed to the Supreme Court?

Answer: No one. He had & has NO CHANCE OF WINNING.

Would President Gore have gone to war with Iraq?
Would President Gore have signed such an Energy Bill?
Would President Gore have been better on environmental issues? Public education? Health care? Bankruptcy?

While you pout over how some Democrats voted on Issue X or Issue Y, a woman's right to choose is in jeopardy, an illegal war is started, the right to private consensual sex (and the right to contraception) is threatened, more federal land is opened for drilling and logging, and on and on.

Until you admit that there's a difference, I can't take you (or your ilk) seriously.

[Catholic Sensation]

24. The funniest thing about this is, if a Republican sent Cindy the same

letter, everyone here would be cheering the Republican for his moral stand against the Bush Administration. All the support she gets should be willingly accepted by those who claim to be supporting her in her mission. But some people are just too god damn selfish.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. How do you know that?

It hasn't happened has it? I love your crystal ball!

[Catholic Sensation]

27. Because similar actions have received massive praise.

Every Republican who goes against Bush is cheered, as well they should be. But if Ralph Nader makes statements that are against Bush, he's attacked as though he just proposed the Final Solution as a suitable domestic policy initiative.

[charlyvi]

29. That's because usually Nader's remarks include Dems too.

No difference between the parties, remember? His big slogan for the '00 election. Turns out he was wrong.

Actually, this thread started because the OP said Nader would vote a certain way on recently passed legislation; we rightfully pointed out that she/he would have no way of knowing that. It had nothing to do with Cindy. Two separate issues. You're the one that introduced Cindy into the mix on this particular thread.

It's great that Nader supports her; most of us feel that way. We don't require that someone has to agree with us in order to give Cindy their support. As I said, it's two separate issues.

[Catholic Sensation]

31. I was refering to the people in the letter thread

who have shown absolutely no class and instead of saying "good, I'm glad he's taking her side" instead have nothing to say except "fuck Nader".

[charlyvi]

33. Don't mean to rile your feathers....

Honestly I don't. :toast: but many of us on this board don't like Nader. Big surprise, huh? :) and what I don't understand is how Nader advocates fail to comprehend why. It's very understandable.

And it was confusing to me because I haven't read the other thread--I normally avoid Nader threads because my blood pressure can only take so much.

[Catholic Sensation]

34. I'm not a Nader supporter by any stretch of the imagination

but it's annoying to see that people who claim to support a cause reject someone who has thrown their support behind it.

[charlyvi]

37. Yes. I can see where you would be annoyed.

And those people were wrong, but as I said, didn't read the thread. I think maybe it's just difficult for some of us more shall I say "passionate" DU'ers to get over '00. I know I haven't, and maybe it's hard for them to see any good in someone that helped bring about such destruction. I don't think too may DU'ers trust Nader or his motives. But if it can help Cindy, who cares what his motives are, huh?

[Catholic Sensation]

39. there was a lot in florida that cost Gore the election

the butterfly ballot
old people not reading the ballot properly
and yes, nader's presence

would it be alright for the "passionate" DUers to hate old people because thousands of them screwed up?

[charlyvi]

41. DU'ers wouldn't feel that way because.....

Old people did not intentionally screw up. But Nader knew, HE KNEW, what his campaign could cost. He was warned by many, originally swore not to campaign in swing states and then did just that. His pride (hubris) overcame his concern for this nation's well being. Old people did not go to the polls intending to screw up their ballots; Nader campaigned in Florida and New Hampshire intending to show everyone he could throw the election to shrub. Your example is not a good one.

[LoZoccolo]

51. Selfish? Selfish?

Selfish is getting a Republican president in office for vanity.

[jpgray]

28. Based on his stock portfolio and business practices, "Yes" to all

Let's take a look at his investments. Gee, the good ol' Fidelity Magellan fund. He has the same Occidental Oil investments which he blasted Gore for, he has invested in Halliburton, Raytheon, Boeing, General Dynamics and other nasty military industrial complex firms. That is ironic, isn't it--fleecing idealistic people who are against the war and profiting from each Cruise missile killing innocent Iraqis at the same time. Oh looky, he also has invested in GAP and the Limited, so he supports sweatshops, economic slavery and child labor with his portfolio as well. As for labor, it's great that he pays lip service to getting rid of Taft-Hartley, but too bad he never allowed his own damn workers to unionize. The way he votes with his pocketbook and his business practices prove him to be a man of great hypocrisy and almost zero moral fiber. Ralph has no voting record and never will, so he can say whatever he wants. It's easy to talk the talk--his walk is so entirely different from his talk I have no idea why dumb leftists continue to idolize a guy who hasn't done a decent thing except wag his jowls for thirty years. And his utter fucking nonsense about "no difference" between fascistic rightwingers and bourgeois capitalists is the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever heard in my life.

Let me anticpate your response: but Dems do X and Y and Z which are just as bad or worse! Yeah, I know, but I don't pick my liberal heroes by finding those who are hypocrite-lite or war profiteer-lite. I expect that behavior from establishment Democrats, but my leftist heroes are a cut above. Take Dennis Kucinich, for example. Definitely take him over Ralph.

I don't begrudge Ralph's saying the right things--that's appreciated. His letter to Cindy is part of that. But I don't like it when he DOES the wrong things, because he is supposed to be better than that--he is not supposed to be the shameless hypocrite that most other politicians are, remember?

[Snotcicles]

30. Wrong my responce is

I don't believe you.

[jpgray]

32. Go here then, and think twice about this shameless hypocrite

http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/10/28/stocks/

[Incitatus]

36. Interesting

Not surprising, but interesting.

[Princess Turandot]

58. When he ran for President in 2000, he had a net worth of $4.1-$5 million..

dollars, including $1 million in stocks in Cisco Systems. That was per his federal election disclosures according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader

(Entry is in "personal information" near the end of the article.)

[evilqueen]

49. Your response on Nader is pretty much everything I would have said. n/t

[NNadir]

53. That about sums it up. Well said, here! Here! and all of that.

[onehandle]

35. He would have stood with Bush.

Because he stood with Bush in 2000 and 2004.

He wanted things to get worse.

Mission Accomplished, Ralph.

[ulysses]

38. ah, the talking points.

:hi: onehandle.

[onehandle]

42. Hey there.

Still here in McKinney's (Thank God) District?

[LoZoccolo]

56. I heard the talking points from a Nader supporter.

They said they wanted Bush* to win to bring about total collapse so we could start over. That doesn't sound like fun to me. Matter of fact, that idea with those intentions sounds like terrorism to me.

Stalin proposed the strategy to the German communists to let Hitler get elected, which is why I call this the "Stalin strategy".

[ignatius 2]

40. Oh for God's sakes..we have finally got the media watching

Plamegate, we have got an anti-war hero sitting in a ditch in Crawford drawing media attention, we have got the wee cowboy's ratings plummeting after the DSM convinced more and more Americans that he is a liar and a coward.

Can we please,please not rehash the old tire Nader threads and focus and use our energies on what might get the neo-cons out of the WH and into the jail house?

[LittleClarkie]

43. I don't hate him

And I hope you're not painting all Nader disapprovers as being emotional, and not having reasons for what they say.

I have reasons.

I didn't have a problem with him running in 2000. I don't blame him for Gore's loss.

But he lost me when he took Smear Vet money and Republican help. When he got on one ballot by having a sham of a convention. He has become an egotistical hypocrite in his old age.

He may say the words some want to hear, but I no longer trust him. Sad. I used to respect him. He can kiss my shiny metal ass now.

Pat Buchannan also says words that some here like to hear. Does that make him a great man as well?

[LittleClarkie]

44. How much money did he take from the Republicans this last year

And how much of that was Smear Vet money.

He forfeited his right to be taken seriously, even if he says all the right things.

[BIG Sean]

46. Nader's ego put Bush in the Whitehouse!..

Enough Said!

[applegrove]

48. He never saw the difference between Gore & Bush. N/T

[LoZoccolo]

50. Nader doesn't support weaning us off of oil in 18 months like I do.

I am better than Nader on all counts.

Did Nader promise a resolution to violence in the Middle East, like me?
Does Nader guarantee universal education and employment, like me?

Quit marrying yourself to that spineless do-nothing!

[hayu_lol]

52. Nader...

has accepted funding from the GOP.

Has as a good friend...Grover Norquist.

Helped put Bush into the White House.

Worked against Paul Wellstone.

Shall I go on?

Nader is against organized labor(check out his employees).

Nader prevented his black employees from coming in the front door and/or congregating in the lobby.

Nader is just another fully-rotten meglomaniac.

[LoZoccolo]

54. I made a promise during my campaign to return all Republican money.

Nader promised nothing, and did nothing. Plus, I have never broken up a union, and never refused a requestion from the Congressional Black Caucus.

[dissent1977]

57. Can we both like Nader's ideas and deplore his tactics?

Every time I hear Nader speak I agree with pretty much every word that comes out of his mouth. It is his campaigning style that I don't like. I thought his '96 and 2000 runs were great, but in 2004 he lost me.

I was at the Green Party National Convention (which Nader did not bother to show up at) and his vice presidential candidate Peter Camejo led a major smear campaign against the other major Green Candidate David Cobb. The Nader supporters were trying to smear Cobb as being a supporter of the Iraq War, which was a lie and they tried to claim that the Green Party's endorsement process was unfair when they lost by a significant margin. They are STILL today fighting the Green Party because we did not endorse them, even though the election was completely fair and the Nader people were just simply able to get enough delegates. Nader used to be a Green, but unfortunately he has now done significant damage to the Green Party.