I think political correctness brings this place down

[CatWoman]

I've been browsing the threads, and can't get over how some here get bent out of shape over basically nothing.

People need thicker skins.

Too many good conversations get shut down because of it.

[atommom]

1. One person's "basically nothing" isn't another person's "basically nothing

We all come from different backgrounds, have different experiences, and different triggers, too. I'm not sure which threads you're referring to, but I don't think being considerate of others' feelings is necessarily a bad thing.

[CatWoman]

3. as Trumad once observed

some of your asses are so tight, I'll bet you shit diamonds.

I'm not speaking of you, of course.

Just an observation.

Plus, I think that observation is funnier than hell.

[BrklynLiberal]

11. ROFLMAO>>>>

"some of your asses are so tight, I'll bet you shit diamonds."

I am going to remember that line!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dave502d]

28. CatWoman,that is a great line and you our right,thank you.n/t

[Bunny]

7. Yep, we've all got particular issues that we respond strongly to.

What is SO wrong with being considerate of others? Why must that be SUCH a big deal? :shrug:

I've changed several of my behaviors here when I found out that they upset others. And you know what - it hasn't affected my DU experience in the least. It's really not THAT hard.

[mopaul]

2. frikkin' A...!

let it flow, we can knock heads and still be friends. we is righteous!

[CatWoman]

5. I need a favor on my sig line

:hi:

can you put "RIP" under Trinity's name?

Please?? :hi:

[oscar111]

12. cat Trinity was the rude one, and now is RIP

perhaps the Power of the Universe was telling all to be more polite?

Ps the cats are one of my top favorite sigs. Because of the winks and tongue sequence. Keep it.

[CatWoman]

14. Trin wasn't the rude one. She was the sweetest, and my best buddy.

[latebloomer]

31. I'm so sorry, CatWoman

I know how painful it is to lose a beloved pet.

:hug:

[tblue37]

59. I just lost the sweetest 19-year-old girl kitty, too.

Also my best friend. I am sorry for your loss.

[charlie]

15. Erm... what?

:shrug:

[CatWoman]

20. he's going to make me cry

how's that for PC?

[charlie]

29. Perhaps if the Power of the Universe

dropped a 20-ton cowflop on a certain ranch house in Crawford, it could get me to take it seriously.

[oscar111]

6. I favor no flaming. Flamers out of control, drive newbies away

i favor politeness on the threads.

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. It does lead to a certain predictability, but where would you draw

the line? Public forums can get out of control in a flash.

[CatWoman]

8. I'm not arguing with that -- the line has to be drawn

but some come out of the gate drawing the proverbial "I dare you to cross this" taunt.

[The_Casual_Observer]

32. There is such a rich set of topics to discuss that don't offend

innocent people that it hardly seems worth the effort to pursue a lot of them here. However, over the years I have received a few sour remarks regarding comments I have made, and I really try not to offend anybody but bush and freepers.

[wli]

9. I don't see that happening.

[CatWoman]

26. you don't see receipts for voting machines happening either

:shrug:

[wli]

36. I beg your pardon?

My comments on the receipts were not that they were not happening, but that they would not serve any useful purpose without additional regulations enabing verification of the election using the receipts.

[wuushew]

10. And by posting this topic you ironically shed more light

on the very topic you wish to minimize as a discussion subject.

[CatWoman]

19. I don't agree

There are several topics that come to mind -- mascots for instance.

So much hand wringing over mascots.

I saw an Oprah Winfrey show, that featured a Native American chief.

His people make those silly tomahawks the Braves fans use and wave during the games.

The chief was like, "I'm laughing all the way to the bank".

[Eloriel]

49. Yeah, and there are lots of women, blacks, etc. who are

just fine and even willingly complicit with THEIR exploitation and degradation too. They think THEY are laughing all the way to the banks, meanwhile their people are getting dissed in numerous ways in part because of the degradation they so willingly participate in.

Here's an example for ya of how it works. Maybe you saw the thread, maybe you didn't. Maybe you thought nothing of it. But what I'd like to point out is how such an OP draws a sexist crowd, a particularly juvenile one, and one which gets almost increasingly vocal, vile, crude, lewd.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1998757#1998759

And of course, a few of the worst posts have been deleted. There's no reason to reduce ANY woman to her parts and pieces; there's no reason to aim at her gender or any gender-specific traits about her in order to criticize her. There's plenty to criticize without using gender-specific or sexual put downs which demean ALL women, and make it easier for ALL women to be "kept in their places."

The use of Native Americans as mascots is awful. How would you feel about the Atlanta Darkies? Or even the Atlanta Tutsis (sp?) -- all out of respect, of course (nevermind the slavery thing, we're RESPECTFUL now)? Heck in the interst of expanded and globalized trade could go to Africa and find some nice tribe to make doodads for the team to sell, spread the wealth around a little bit. (GAWD, I offend myself just writing about it!)

The long and short of it is this: you can't expect respectful treatment from the larger society, including the courts and legislatures, if you don't enforce some semblance of respect in commercial ventures and just everyday discourse as well.

[H2O Man]

62. It goes beyond the name.

Indian "mascots" often (though not always) use what are considered "sacred objects" by traditional people, for their little show. If there was a team that had a white minister dancing on the sidelines with a cross, flicking 'holy water" of the opposing team, and feeding bread & wine to hometown fans, few people would think that it wasn't at least unintentionally offensive.

[napi21]

13. I agree with CatWoman! Political correctness is killing the US!

Haven't you ever had slams made against you? If you haven't I'd love to know where you live and what you've been doing for a living!!!

If someone says something untrue, fight them on it. If it's true, then you've got to live with it.

That's part of the reason Dems are called wuses. You can't be nice all the time.

[CatWoman]

22. fucking A!!!

:thumbsup:

[Cleita]

16. If you're talking about the Katherine Harris conversation,

I agree. Here's a woman whose actions in the 2000 election got us Bush, a war in Irag, almost 2,000 dead Americans, torture scandals, a fascist government, a bankrupt nation indebted for generations to China and God knows what is coming.

I'd say ripping her apart on a bulletin board is nothing compared to really ripping her apart. So I think we deserve the satisfaction of being able to do it on paper. She's a player in this not just a family member like Pickles. However, if Skinner and the mods don't agree well, I guess that's that.

[CatWoman]

24. that thread did come to mind

I missed the main one, but caught the obligatory "thanks for shutting it down" thread.

I've seen so many women rise to the top that way.

I work with several, too.

[Cleita]

33. That is so fifties. That's how women without scruples got

ahead back then. I guess it's still necessary in the GOP. Ugh, Katherine Harris is so fifties anyway. I wish she'd just go bake some cookies and get out of our lives.

[Eloriel]

50. Rip her all you want; just don't make it sexist

Would you call Justice Thomas the n-word because of his bad behavior? Would you start demeaning him or Armstrong Williams for their broad noses and large lips because you don't like their politics?

Then WHY the HELL would you think it's okay to demean Katherine Harris or any other woman, no matter WHAT her politics of unethical, evil behavior on the basis of her "tits" and "implants" and so forth and so on? DEMEAN HER ALL YOU WANT FOR NON-SEXUAL, NON-GENDER THINGS. Just like you'd criticize African Americans and Jews for their behaviors and attitudes, not on the basis of their race and ethnicity.

Get it?

[Cleita]

54. Hi Eloriel.

Now we are going to disagree. Everything Katherine Harris does is sexist. She is a typical anti-women woman. She is the worst example of women because she still thinks you have to use men to get your way. The whoreish make-up, affected sexiness, and you do know what I am saying, deserves to be commented on.

I'll bet she says, "I'd rather talk to men because I have nothing in common with women."

We all know these "girls".

In my book, throw the book at her.

:hi:

[Catholic Sensation]

17. I've seen people make statements saying how arrogant it is for white

men to go around deciding what isn't offensive. However, I guess, white men and women deciding what is offensive is sympathy.

[NNN0LHI]

18. Had the PC police try moving into LBN a while back

They started out with their "oooh, you all cuss too much here" shit. I told them to go fuck themselves.

Don

[CatWoman]

21. That's why I love you

:loveya:

[Cleita]

23. Good for you.

Most of us know the difference between expressive language and outre and unacceptable vulgarity.

[Mr_Spock]

25. Yeah, it's tough when some people take rigid stands on one issue

Multiply that by 10,000 and you have at least one person going bonkers over anything remotely controvercial - it's kinda annoying if you ask me. Which you didn't :rofl:

[AlCzervik]

27. if i remember right you got irritated at me for making a comment

about the History channel and their non-stop Hitler a thons.

[CatWoman]

30. yes

because I posted a thread trying to inform people about a sale, and you tried to piss in it.

[AlCzervik]

38. no i didn't, i made a comment and you jumped the conclusion that i didn't

like history.

[CatWoman]

41. I'm not going to argue with you about it

[flowomo]

34. somehow your "political correctness" has been conflated with...

"politeness" -- two very different things. Politeness is usually the right choice -- but political correctness (always defined by the prevailing politics of the community in question, in this case DU) is stifling. I instinctively pull back from just about anything on which everybody agrees, here and in general. Too much celebratory agreement smothers judgement.

[CatWoman]

37. thanks for the distinction.

thanks very much.

I was pondering how to answer to that.

:hi:

[Eloriel]

51. Stifling. Yeah, it's so STIFLING to avoid sexiam and racism and

homophobia and anti-Semitism, isn't it?

Just stifles the conversation. There's an argument Neal Boortz would love. Or did you get it from him?

:sarcasm:

He's actually used a very similar one to justify his own racism.

[flowomo]

53. damn... and I promised Neal I wouldn't let on!

now you've outed my source.

[omega minimo]

65. How do you spell "respect"?

Sounds like you view "political correctness" in the Limbot dittohead demonized sense of artificially derived and arbitrarily imposed restrictions.... "Politeness" can also be artificial and arbitrary.

Rather than "celebratory agreement" that "smothers judgement." in the context of DU, polite-ical correctness is simply:

"....please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

"The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else.

"Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden."

That's quite different than "stifling." It can even inspire new modes of expression and understanding and growth.

Maybe even progress.

[johnnie]

35. I agree

I delete about 60% of the stuff I want to say before I post it because I feel someone will get pissed.
My perspective on issues shrinks when I come to DU. I have become pretty safe here.

[devilgrrl]

39. WORD!

CatWoman on top of it as always :applause:

It's a wonder that so many people like Bill Hicks here.

[johnnie]

40. "It's a wonder that so many people like Bill Hicks here."

No shit..lol. Good call devilgrrl

[CatWoman]

42. DG!!!!

My "pardner" in crime :D

:hi:

[devilgrrl]

48. tee hee hee hee hee....

:evilgrin: :toast: :evilgrin: :toast: :evilgrin: :toast: :evilgrin: :toast: :evilgrin: :toast: :evilgrin:

[Cocoa]

43. I like political correctness

in the absence of specifics, I'll speak generally. P.C. to me is a new awareness of the harm words cause and an effort to be more thoughtful.

On balance it's a very good development in our culture.

[Pithlet]

45. I agree.

I think people are mixing up PC and being touchy. The two are completely different things. As to people who are "too touchy", that is a judgment call based on personality and sensibilities, something that is going to vary widely on any large message board.

[CatWoman]

46. Cocoa

we should all be as polite and thoughtful as you.

I've always felt that way about you.

[ismnotwasm]

44. I can't stand the term political correctness.

I understand your point, but sometimes using that term seems to give folks a free-for-all response that affect issues we have been fighting for for so long. Sexism. Racism. That's actually where I got my user name, these are isms, that are a reality, not problems that have been resolved. And some are still very, very active in these fights. We've come a long way, but there is still a long way to go, and that's probably why folk get sensitive and edgy about certain topics. Polite is better or at least an awareness of what has gone on before. All I got to do is listen to "Strange Fruit" by Billie Holliday to remember. Or visit my son's relations on a very poor reservation. Or remember what Anita Hill had to go through. But I do have a sense of humor, In fact a dark and twisted one, so I usually get what people are trying to say in some of the threads. ;)

[WillyT]

47. Right On Cat !!! - PC Is A Luxury That Went Away In 2001 !!!

We tried that angle in the last couple of elections and had our asses handed to us. We now are fighting for our very democracy, and the country we once knew. We are the rabble, that is the rebellion.

Deal with it!

:hi::bareass::hi:

[Eloriel]

52. You wanna explain that to those among us who don't get it,

like me?

PC Is A Luxury That Went Away In 2001 !!! We tried that angle in the last couple of elections and had our asses handed to us.

What was it about the last 2 candidates that you found so PC, and esp. so objectionably PC?

And while we're at it, would it be racism or sexism or homophobia or all of the above that you'd throw out so we could win some elections?

[WillyT]

63. Geez E... Is That What You Think Of Me ???

4 years and 11,000, posts and ya still can't tell where I'm comin from?

Wow...

When they stole the election in 2000\2001, we were in a fight, a fucking brawl for the soul of this country. We were in a fight for our democracy, our right to vote, our country, and our very lives. And yet the only politicians with the balls to fight was the Congressional Black Caucus. The rest of our leaders, with the exception of very few, rolled over and peed straight into the air.

When 2002 came and went, the fascists had frightened our party into voting for and supporting, an ill-advised, illegal war, that has killed far more people than the attacks on 9\11 did. Where were our fighters when they rolled over Cynthia McKinney and Max Cleland? Where were OUR profiles in courage??? Sorry... everybody was more concerned with keeping their seats in Congress, than telling the people the harsh truth and risk losing their tenuous hold on power.

And 2004... where the hell was the phrase, "How dare you?" when it came to the swift-idiots? Where was the it for the obvious lies and deceptions from the aircraft carrier to 1,100 dead U.S. soldiers?

What I'm trying to say, is that the milque-toast way we went about pointing out our opponents 'short-comings' did not serve our cause very well. When you're in a fight, you do not consult Miss Manners. We don't have to lie, because we have the truth on our side, and we are right. But we do have to fight. And good or bad, the American people respect people who stand up for themselves. We are JUST NOW starting to do this, and I just wish it had been earlier.

And BTW - In my early teens, me and my sisters helped my mom desegregate a swim and tennis club we had just joined. My parents didn't read the fine print when they joined (early sixties), and found out what was up when my sisters took the youngest son of a Japanese-American doctor to the club, and were told that he could sit and watch, but could not get into the pool to swim. My mom and us copied off dozens of applications, and went to every minority, Jewish, Muslim, and disables household in the neighborhood, and had them come to the next open house. One of the club elders, red-faced, looked at my mom and asked, "Grace... did you even meet these people before you gave them the applications?" The club changed it racists rules by voice vote that night.

I registered to vote in 1973 when I was being admitted to Junior College. My first vote was in 1974 for Jerry Brown for CA Governor. My first presidential vote was for Jimmy Carter in 1976. I've voted pretty much straight Dem ever since.

I protested when some idiot state legislator tried to make it illegal for gays to become school teachers. I became a teacher myself, and joined a union. I've fed the homeless at several different soup-kitchens, and have helped put together many fund raisers for people who got sick, and had no health benefits. Hell...we even got a tax exempt status for one of these funds. I've marched with fellow DUers against this war, and against this administration several times so far. And last year, a couple of my sisters and me, took my mom (now 76) to Washington D.C. for the March For Women's Lives.

Those are just some of my politics, and I really think I've earned the right to tell somebody to kiss my ass if I think they deserve it. I don't want to throw out racism, sexism, and homophobia in order to win. Those aren't politically correct. Being against racism, sexism, gays, etc... are OUR CORE VALUES!!! If somebody on this board has suggested that we need to abandon those values and others to win, tell them to piss off! We are NOT gonna go backward. Ya might tell 'em they're comin off like a racist, sexist, homophobic turd if they so deserve. That's what I'd do.

:hi::shrug::hi:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

55. Not as much as homophobia, sexism and racism bring this place down.

The mods are always having to monitor what goes on here. People, many of them trolls, jump on those threads and congratulate themselves on their common racism, sexism and homophobia in the form of "Oh, those that disagree are just being too PC".

Having threads like that around just draws people like that out of the wooodwork. Why would DU be a better place for it?

For a change, people are attempting to be considerate of other people's feelings. What is bad about that? And to say "well, there is a limit" doesn't fly, because that limit changes as society changes. At one time calling an African American a "negro" was perfectly acceptable. Going through my school library, I came across an old book no longer in the reference section. It was called "How to educate the negro" or something like that. Is the world worse off that this book is no longer available? Most would say "no". But at the same time if you told people at that time that they were being completely racist, they would say that you were being too touchy or sensitive or uppity and most certainly if they had access to our modern vocabulary, they would complain of people being too PC.

[Strawman]

56. Here's what I think

There are some people who try to point out that certain language is offensive and use a poster's transgression as a teaching moment. I think that's a good thing when it's done in a teaching kind of spirit. Everyone puts their foot in their mouth, so to speak, from time to time, and I try to give people here the benefit of the doubt. I have been educated this way numerous times in my life.

Sometimes however it's the tone of those who call others out that I think counterproductive. The person who said something that may have been offensive becomes defensive and feels like they are being unfairly attacked, they strike back, nothing is gained, neither side is interested in any sort of real discussion and just starts labeling the other side out of self defense.

So there's truth on both sides of this argument. Sometime in our lives most of us have said something that is offensive to someone else, so the "PC is bullshit" crowd is not entirely right. They need to be a little more open to rethinking their use of language that might be unintentionally racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. But on the other hand I think the people who are upset with "political correctness" do put their finger on something that I think is valid: there are some people who seem to get off a little too much on unmasking people as fraudulent progressives and rush to judgement. At the end of the day, no one is giving out an award to the "truest liberal" in this discussion forum. Some people have views I find insensitive or uninformed, others may feel that way about me. If I just go off on them and attack, they will never listen to me.

[Generic Other]

57. We're on the left! How can we help but be politically correct?

:shrug:

[BamaLefty]

58. I'd Have To Agree With You, CatWoman n/t

[MrSlayer]

60. I agree. It's really silly.

I get the feeling the society portrayed in that awful Stallone movie "Demolition Man" is what a lot of people on this site would like. You'd think we were in grade school or something with the way people whine and complain over simple words. And then they gleefully scurry to rat to the teacher instead of dealing with it themselves. It's a lot of self righteous bullshit if you ask me and it limits free expression, something all liberals should be against. I enjoy the board but I do find the censorship to be ridiculous. I'm offended by it. Heh.

[applegrove]

61. The one thing we don't need to loose is our compassion. Adults fight

with compassion. Adolescents & neons & Rovebots do not. That is why they work so hard to teach growing down on their sites. They also teach the type of humor that is mean. Adults like humor that punches through to the truth. Once they have adolescents..then they can give them direction and get them to stop thinking with compassion.

We are not into that.

Our compassion is our fiercest weapon. In an adult world..it always is. Along with the truth.

And discernment. And certain types of political correctness are nuanced and discerning. And more than often they punch at falsehoods.


Only the freepers and sociopaths feel built up by diminishing others. And adolescents. But that is redundant.

[Lindacooks]

64. Yeah, politeness and being considerate of other is SO Repuke.

NOT.

Political correctness is simply being polite and considerate. Why do you have a problem with that?

[mixedview]

66. political correctness is necessary, but sometimes it goes too far.

Contrary to popular belief, PC is neccessary in order to deal with bigoted group norms/attitudes.

Human beings are hierarchial, pack animals and the majority will naturally dominate the minority if left unchecked.

So, in a way, it is a type of cultural socialism, but necessary in order to protect the vulnerable.

It is regulation of the group, by the group.

But we always need to hold true to our libertarian and democratic values, to look at each situation and judge it according to it's own context, before automatically condemning an individual for using offensive language. We should attempt to resolve problems ourselves, on a one-to-one basis, before running to the group for help every time we are the slightest bit offended.