Rosa Parks And This Whole Bus Boycott Aren't Going To Change Anything!

[DistressedAmerican]

People are all excited about Rosa Parks and this whole Birmingham bus boycott thing. I hope that I am wrong. But, I just do not think it is going to make any real difference and here's why.

Segregation has been around for generations. There is no popular will in America to change that. The main stream media are hardly reporting it and when they do they distort the message to discredit her. America will never buy into this, much less the southern politicians. They hold all the cards you know.

Before anyone flames me out, let me say I personally really support what Rosa is doing. I really do. It is just that I have seen this all before. People get excited about segregation changing only to have their hope dashed on the rocks of entrenched racism. I just do not believe this whole boycott is going to make any real difference in the end.

Believe me, I really hope that I am wrong. But, if you ask me this is just going to fade away without changing much of anything. In a year "coloreds" will still be using separate bathrooms and water fountains. They will still not be able to sit next to whites on the bus or at the lunch counter. Forget any chance of "colored" kids going to school with whites. It is a pipe dream. We really can't change such a monolithic and powerful institution as southern segregation.

It is a shame. But, it is the truth. I hope this whole thing doesn't just make it worse...

=====================================================================
Sound like a lot of posts around here lately?

The naysayers are wrong, they have been beaten so many times that they can no longer imagine winning. Learned helplessness is both ugly and debilitating.

Thank God that Cindy Sheehan has not learned to be helpless!

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Excellent!

"Learned helplessness is both ugly and debilitating."


:bounce: :bounce: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :kick: :kick: :yourock: :yourock: :applause: :applause: :applause: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[villager]

2. thanks for this!

n/t

[benburch]

3. Hammer... Nail... BANG!

You nailed it brother.

[Patchuli]

4. Recommended and Kicked!! nt

:kick:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. BRAVO!

[UrbScotty]

6. Nominated. (nt)

[havocmom]

7. LOL! Bravo!

Wonderful bit of satire and yes, the posts like that are getting tiresome.

[nookiemonster]

8. Kick!

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Yep, good job

[understandinglife]

10. For those who only follow, it is difficult to understand the power of ...

... real leadership. They can study it in their history classes, or wherever.

But, they just do not understand what it means to stand alone and say 'no more.'

Cindy knows how to lead.

And, she is the first person to cause Bush and the neoconsters some real concern -- (though that little grand jury down the street from the White House is likely to cause them some real anguish).

And, here's the message to all the followers, if you are not on the steamroller, get out of the way, otherwise you are going to join W and his gang in the pavement.


Peace.

[Elidor]

11. BAM!

I love it when Conventional Wisdom is shattered.

[JackDragna]

12. I'm not sure this is quite a bellweather moment as Ms. Parks had..

..but given the amount of people in this country who could have stood up but did nothing, who supported the president even though he ruined their lives, it's damned nice to see someone making Bush squirm.

[ultraist]

13. JD: It's about more than just making Bush squirm...

This event is a major catalyst for the PEACE MOVEMENT!

The Revolution is NOW.

[meganmonkey]

23. I think this just me be THE bellweather moment for the anti-war movement

Having been at anti-war protests in DC months before the war started, and many in Michigan since then, I never felt any momentum the way I do now, even just sitting here reading about it. And she has said that if he doesn;t talk to her she will go to DC and wait there for a meeting...and that will lead directly into the HUGE protest on September 24th... I really think this is the beginning.

And if I am not optimistic about this I will probably go crazy ;)

And a quick google search of Rosa Parks Cindy Sheehan got over 20,000 hits....

"Cindy Sheehan has become the Rosa Parks of the anti-war movement," said Rev. Lennox Yearwood, leader of the Hip Hop Caucus, an activist group. "She's tired, fed up and she's not going to take it anymore, and so now we stand with her."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_peace_mom

Watch for Cindy’s story on the news. She could well be the Rosa Parks of the movement against the Iraq War. Just as Rosa refused to leave the bus, Cindy is refusing to leave the roadside. She’s the spark that is igniting the anti-war movement.
She’s an incredibly courageous woman
http://spidel.net/blog/

The Rosa Parks of the Anti-War Movement Has Risen . . .
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/08/1758963.php

[tsuki]

14. Yippee-ka-yay. Smoke 'em out. eom

[clover]

15. i suggest we stop discussing sheehan's "pain" and

"grief"

her grief is being used against her, as a way to water down her direct message, a standard tactic used against women who speak truth to power.

her pain and grief are personal, intimate, and she was generous to share the circumstances that led to that most feared and powerful emotional storm that dogs parents of lost children forever.

she is a strong person, with solid support from her family and chosen friends.

the role of sympathetic others is to avoid the emotional pornography that dogs her, at the expense of her eloquent messages, and to get the word out, without the focus on her pain, which she obviously has channeled into a clearly defined "noble cause," which we can support without recalling her grief. if she can do it, so can we.

[Gabi Hayes]

18. great post..."emotional pornograph" is equivalent to the TORTURE

tactics used on prisoners when, for whatever reason, physical abuse isn't the method of choice

can you imagine what these monsters would say about what they'd like to do to her when they thought nobody was listening?

look what they're doing out in the open; check the freeper threads cited here

true evil

[DistressedAmerican]

19. Is There Something About This Post That You Do Not Get?

I couldn't care less about the naysayers or their opinion!

I defy you to look at this photo and tell me we should not discuss the grief!

[StopTheMorans]

21. this post defines "emotional pornography"

her cause is one thing; piggybacking her suffering as the main vehicle through which to support it is quite another...

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StopTheMorans]

26. is using reason to support an argument vs. throwing out played-out

phrases an approved argumentative tactic in GD these days?

[DistressedAmerican]

27. GRIEF...

[StopTheMorans]

31. see post #30 n/t

[ultraist]

28. We must NEVER deny the pain, grief and suffering that WAR causes

A critical point: Bush's unnecessary and illegal war has caused DEATH, massive pain and suffering.

[StopTheMorans]

30. no, but we also must not overplay the pain and suffering of one person

so as to look like we are deliberately whoring her personal suffering for political gain. tasteful expression can be obtained, i'm only railing against those who insist on sensationalizing aspects of this.

[DistressedAmerican]

32. Let Me Make This Crystal Clear To You.

I have no fucking interest in debating you or even having a dialog with you. I believe your premise is total bullshit and so does most everyone that posts here.

Do not expect that if you keep posting this crap you will get me to debate you. I am done debating naysayers. I have had it with their negativity.

Like someone else said on this thread get out of the way of the steam roller of get flattened out right beside Bush!

Period. Will not be replying to you again.

On Edit: Ok I guess I Did...

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

36. And Everyone Here That Agrees With Me.

[StopTheMorans]

39. are they paralyzed from the waist up? can they not type for themselves?

and, i thought that you were done having a dialogue. oh wait, i guess that you are, as you're not responding to any of the real issues that i've raised. i imagine that you probably haven't run out of personal attacks yet though, eh?

[DistressedAmerican]

42. Read The thread And Look At The Nominations. Plenty Of Typing.

Ever get 19 nominations in under an hour? It is a first for me.

On Edit: Make that 21.

[StopTheMorans]

43. they haven't responded to any of my posts. what is this, a popularity

contest :shrug:

[DistressedAmerican]

44. .

Bye. Keep kicking though. I'm sure some others will take up your pointless challenge.

[StopTheMorans]

46. i've made my point, and you've never refuted it. so i guess that you

could say that, in essence, my point stands, as do your posts where you do nothing but attack me, instead of the issues that I was raising.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zuni]

48. you usually kick these yourself

[DistressedAmerican]

127. Kick

snarky shit...

[DistressedAmerican]

131. Another...

Still Snarky Shit...

[DistressedAmerican]

142. Hmmm. Maybe One More

You know for the freeps ...

[Eloriel]

60. Yeah, I'm one who agrees with you

Sheehan basically doesn't exist without her grief. She wouldn't be DOING this were it not for her grief and loss; she wouldn't have much to SAY were it not for her grief and loss; she wouldn't have the moral authority were it nor for her grief and loss; she wouldn't be getting much if any press coverage were it not for her grief and loss; she wouldn't be such a heroine to so many of us were it not for her grief and loss (by comparison, Medea Benjamin has been at this for years now and has never gotten nearly the publicity or following Sheehan has); and she wouldn't pull our heartstrings as she does were it not for her grief and loss.

I am left wondering why those few of you who feel this way DO feel the way you do. I can only think of a couple of reasons, and they're NOT flattering. One is public, and one is private. The public one would be that at some level they don't want to see Sheehan get any more successful than they can keep her from getting, and the private one is that they're acutely uncomfortable with the real feelings of real women (or something similar). If they can provide another reason, I'd love to hear it.

'Cause in the meantime, their position on this makes NO sense whatsoever to me. None.

[StopTheMorans]

70. yes, Eloriel, it's always about repressing women, you're right

i have to leave and go repress my girlfriend now. good fucking god

[Eloriel]

77. Oh, I see you don't want to deal with the issues. You complained

that no one had responded to YOU, and now that I have, this is the treatment I get? Pretty fucking funny. (Not to mention revealing.)

I said that I can only think of 2 reasons, and neither of them were "about repressing women," tho I think I can understand how you'd get confused.

But you apparently can't provide any alternative reason. I wonder why is that?

[StopTheMorans]

81. no, i complain that you say that it is 2 issues, and that it's always

about repressing women with you; you seem to be fixated on it even in instances where it has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand. my issue is in almost every one of my replies and has nothing to do with either of the 2 supposed issues you mentioned: i feel that the images like the one DA kept posting with "GRIEF!" over them are when we start losing more people than we gain to our side on this issue. we can do this tastefully and convert many people, or we can go over the top and lose people. just my .02...

[Eloriel]

86. Well, I just responded to your post explaining (finally) your thinking

which is ludicrous, as others have pointed out as well.

On the other matter, I'm REAL sure I won't be taking YOUR advice about what does or doesn't have anything to do with repressing women. But, I will point out again: it's quite common for many men (and some women) to be acutely uncomfortable with real emotions expressed by real people, esp. if they are strong and "negative," tho some people are quite uncomfortable with strong GOOD emotions (like happiness and excitement) too.

The interesting thing to me is this: of all the posts I've seen ABOUT Sheehan, yours is the one that comes closest to any exploitation of her. (I may have missed others.) YOU are the ones interested in "using" her and afraid that if it's not done just right, we'll "lose" people. Most of the rest of the Cindy phenomenon has really been more in the moment joining her, celebrating her, mourning with her, etc., and much less focused on what (and who) we can get OUT of her.

And I'm feel certain you won't be able to get that observation either.

Edited: And oh -- I wouldn't be quite so "focused" on sexism and the oppression of women, if there weren't so damn much of it right here at DU, and your objection to my point (which you could merely DISAGREE with without lecturing me on what I should or shouldn't be "focused" on) tends to bear me out, frankly.

[StopTheMorans]

87. got it, thanks. i support Cindy, have since the beginning. maybe it's

not very "liberal" of me to actually be concerned with how this will play out for the left politically, or to worry about how people will feel about this. your post is condescending, but I guess that's to be expected.

[Zhade]

96. Maybe you should stop echoing Limbaugh, then.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2004387

[StopTheMorans]

98. if Bush speaks the truth about something, does it make it a lie because

it is he who spoke it? i think not, but thanks for comparing me to Limbaugh. you know, Hitler once used the words "Maybe you should" in a sentence...

[Zhade]

105. I'm not comparing you to Limbaugh, so please don't get histrionic on me.

I'm saying, if you don't want the left to be attacked for 'exploiting Cindy' (which, as we've discussed, I don't personally see happening), then maybe you shouldn't say the things he's saying.

I am in no way equating you with him, so I will ignore your Hitler comment, since now that I have clarified I am sure you can see my position on the matter.

[DistressedAmerican]

91. OK, I'll Play. Here Is Why You Are DEAD WRONG On This Issue.

People are pouring into Crawford to support her. She is not being exploited and all of the spontaneous support she is getting completely nullifies your argument that this "emotional appeal" is turning ANYONE off.

I can point to the hundreds that have dropped everything to join her. Where are these people you think are being turned off? Where are they?

The reason I have resisted getting into this issue with you is that there is nothing anyone is going to say to change your mind. That is quite clear from reading the discussion you have been having. You repeat what you believe and they tell you they disagree and it all starts over again. What the hell does that help?

Now show me a single example of these people that are being turned off by Cindy Sheehan's grief! Show me a single concrete example and I'll consider you may be right. Show them to me. Point them out.

Otherwise it is little more than your (heavily repeated) opinion. It is not fact based in the slightest.

I have hundreds to point to that say no one is being turned off by the way the story is being covered.

[StopTheMorans]

93. show me anyone who has been converted

DU doesn't count, DU is an echo-chamber. Do you seriously think that someone who still supports the war 2 1/2 years after it was launched after hearing all of the bullshit excuses that * has given for it (and knowing that we're not there for any of them) is going to change their mind based on this? no. will someone who has been on the fence for the whole time (although I don't know how anyone can still be on the fence)? maybe, but they don't need to be spoken down to, which is what it feels like when you oversimplify an issue (as do SOME, by no means all, of the concepts I've seen). all that I'm calling for is moderation and a little bit of class; it's a valid issue, and that should be enough.

[DistressedAmerican]

99. So, You Have No One to Point To?

There are people of all walks of life supporting this effort in Crawford and elsewhere. You ASSUMPTION that the only ones mobilizing are DUers and other hard leftists is just plain wrong.

Here is one:


Does not look like the typical tree hugger, bleeding heart to me.

Now back to the point. I have hundreds maybe thousands to point to to back my claim that the way this is being covered is NOT turning folks off.

Now SHOW ME A SINGLE EXAMPLE! One! Find an interview. Find a quote. Find SOMETHING fact based to support your argument.

Otherwise your oft stated opinion if just that, opinion.

[StopTheMorans]

102. how do you know he hasn't always been a lefty?

seriously, you can't show anyone, and neither can i, and that's to be expected. however, as this continues and becomes more and more an issue to the public, then one could expect that this would change people's opinions, and that's what i'm getting at. tasteful expression will turn people's heads, while exploitation will turn people away from something they may have otherwise considered.

[DistressedAmerican]

106. Wrong. I Have Showed Them To You, Here Are Some More.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2003304

People's heads have been turned. I have offered up many heads to prove that FACT.

You have nothing to back up your claims. So, you assert that neither of us can (even though I just did).

You have run out of points other than to reiterate your own OPINION. I have given you two chances now to back those assertions up with a single quote, photo, link, anything.

Since, you can not do that, I'll leave you to your unsupported opinion. You are clearly never going to change it. So, I think we are done here.

I'll let the rest of DU decide on the merits of your unsupported assertions.

Have a nice one!
DA

[DistressedAmerican]

108. Here's One From The Logic Only Camp. Maybe He Agrees?

"This Focus On Grief Is Highly Illogical Captain."



On Edit: Meant to be funny. Not snarky. Just trying to lighten it up a bit...

[TankLV]

145. Just go away. Stick a fork in ya - you're done!

[ultraist]

38. Putting a human face on the DEATH and DESTRUCTION of war...

is NOT sensationalizing.

Fuck sanitizing *'s war! People need to see up close, the realities of his war.

[StopTheMorans]

41. putting her face on it is one thing. whoring her face around the media

24-7 in an attempt to get people to change their views will only polarize them, and will not change anyone's beliefs. it can be done tastefully, which is what many people are missing.

[ultraist]

45. WTF? "Whoring her face around the media"

Look, dude, getting major press on this is a GOOD thing. Are you actually proposing that the press shouldn't show pictures of Cindy?

Americans need to see that REAL mothers, with REAL pain, are LOSING THEIR CHILDREN TO *'s illegal war.

People are starting to wake up, thanks to the peace activists.

[StopTheMorans]

47. nope, i think that they should show pictures of her. pictures of her

speaking, video of her telling how hard she's had it, quotes from her telling how *'s war is based on lies. but, to concentrate SPECIFICALLY on pictures of her crying, and to really push THOSE pictures, is to trivialize her grief and to exploit it, rather than to provide it in the appropriate context. the people you're trying to reach aren't as far left as most here, and you're not going to reach them by emotional appeals, but rather by fact. the fact that Cindy is speaking out and is camped out in Crawford is, by itself, enough to run with, people shouldn't have to be SPECIFICALLY exploiting her personal sorrow.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

50. "you're not going to reach them by emotional appeals, but rather by fact"

LOFL.

[StopTheMorans]

53. emotional appeals to anyone, including freepers, will always fail

they are, by their nature, an affront to one's intelligence, and even the most moranic of individuals will recognize an emotional appeal and instantly tune out the message along with the vehicle.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

58. Your title is so preposterous it should win a prize.

[StopTheMorans]

63. in what way? would you care to elaborate?

is it cool in GD now to reply with 1-line posts that don't address the issue at hand ?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

68. To say "emotional appeals ... always fail" is a sign of madness

or ignorance. IF you mean what you say,
you do not know the first thing about what
makes human beings tick.

[StopTheMorans]

73. thanks, that was a good reply.

to which I'd add: i should have qualified my statement and said that "emotional appeals usually fall flat" or "they may work in a limited number of cases, but will repel more people than they will convert".

[A-Schwarzenegger]

78. Thank you, and I would add that

from what I've seen about her and of her on the media,
there is a greater emphasis on her arguments than on
her emotions. The identifiers name her role as grieving
mother, but that is the identifier that got her on TV to
make her arguments in the first place. Sooner or later
anybody watching TV (with an open mind and heart) is going
to hear her speak and realize that she is much more than
simply a woman in pain. Of course, it is her pain that
drives her to want to stop the war so that other loved
ones don't have to go through what she's going through.
Compassion for others is born of personal suffering. Her
pain is at the heart of the story and of her message of
trying to stop others' pain before it starts.

[Eloriel]

82. You are dead wrong -- on at least 2 counts

And funny as all get out.

First, in response to your post above this one, there are plenty of pix of Sheehan NOT crying; plenty of interviews with her NOT crying. I haven't seen but one photo of her in tears, and that was posted here. So I don't get what your problem is on tbe issue to start with.

Second, perhaps you should spend some time analyzing advertising and also propaganda. Emotional appeals are at the very pinnacle of techniques used because -- tada!! -- they are stunningly effective. I'll repeat that, for emphasis: STUNNINGLY effective.

And my guess is even when they're seen for what they are: an emotional appeal, they're STILL stunningly effective (else how could these various telethons orindeed ANY charitable appeals garner any money?).

People might resist being manipulated, but the only emotional appeal I can imagine which would come off as SP "manipulative" that it would actually turn people off would sink to the level of crude satire or parody, it seems to me.

[StopTheMorans]

88. 1. i wasn't taking issue with the ones that were appropriate

hence me not getting into those Cindy pics (wow, replying to only things you have issue with, what an amazing concept!)>

2. as I already replied to A-Schwarzenegger: emotional appeals can be effective, but, in this case, I feel that they will only serve to alienate more than they will convert.

[TankLV]

146. I might add that no advertising or arguments win or even connect unless

they have an EMOTIONAL APPEAL!

Without the emotional connection, any arguments or advertising fails.

[I Have A Dream]

147. Emotional appeals will work with people like my mother who...

is an Independent and probably hasn't really made up her mind about this war. Seeing Cindy's pain in the picture where she's holding Casey's cross would absolutely make a difference to her and to many other mothers who really haven't thought much about the issue before.

This is where I think that the right has beaten us in the past. They never hesitate to use people showing real feelings. (Important: I don't feel that we're using Cindy here -- this is her mission and we just happen to agree with her and support her where we can.) For example, what about the ad that ran at the end of the 2004 election where B* was hugging the little girl who had lost her parent on September 11? Many people were really affected by that ad, and some have claimed that it made a difference in the election results. This was a real person who was feeling real pain.

I'm not trying to attack you, StopTheMorans. I respect you as a fellow DUer. This is just an area where we disagree.

[ultraist]

52. Cindy has chosen to share her grief publicly

And it has touched many people. That grief, the loss of her son, will always be part of who she is now. Losing a loved one is not something you "get over."

The emotive component is POWERFUL, moving, and HONEST. SANITIZING *'s war, is not human.

Furthermore, they are not showing ONLY pictures of her crying.

[StopTheMorans]

54. so let her show it, it doesn't need to be sensationalized by others

[A-Schwarzenegger]

64. Is she complaining about it?

Please point that out if I missed it.
In any case, I do admire your compassion.

[StopTheMorans]

69. i feel for her cause, and think that it should be transmitted to the

greater public in a tasteful manner. pimping her crying face around is the equivalent of right-wing assholes who put up pictures of people who died on 9/11 with the "so no more have to die" captions with respect to Iraq; it's too fucking much and it's not going to win anyone to your side.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

72. What do you mean "your side"?

You're against the war, too, eh?

[StopTheMorans]

74. i typed that quickly; "your side" is meant to mean either the

right-winger or the person on DU in my argument (i.e. if you do either of the examples I put in my post, you won't win any people over to YOUR side). you can read semantics into it if you'd like, but i've been posting here for fucking YEARS, i marched against the war in March of 2003 in the Boston Common, many other DUers have personally met me and know my politics, so i'd refrain from making the statement that I'm for the war, if that's what you're referring to. if not, my apologies.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

83. OK, just checking, I have no idea what your politics are.

Sometimes we get heated up and forget we are on the same side,
most of us. At this point, re the war: Whatever works to stop it
is what I'm for. This war is now officially an unpopular war.
Nothing's going to make it popular ever again. Every grain of sand
added to the collapse of the lies behind the war is a good grain
of sand. What Cindy is doing, and what the media in its Mongo way
(oooh shiny!) way is doing with her, is going to hurry the end of
the war. You don't see it, that's fine, we disagree.

[StopTheMorans]

85. i agree. i'm more of the "it will be a thousand small lies that kill the

* administration" philosophy rather than the "THIS IS THE ONE! WE HAVE THE BASTARDS!" ilk, and, while I think that this is important, we still need to realize what will win others to the cause, and what will repel others.

[Eloriel]

90. OMG. What a wonderful sentence!!

This war is now officially an unpopular war. Nothing's going to make it popular ever again.

What a happy thought. Now, all that remains is the clean up: bring 'em home. (I know it's more complicated and difficult than that -- I'm just thinking back to the Vietnam war and its tipping point. Even then it was more complicated than that, but it still happened, the war still ended.)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

97. oops delete wrong place

[A-Schwarzenegger]

100. Thanks. I think the next thing to look for is the rats

deserting the sinking ship, namely Repubes who will be
up for election and who do not want to be associated with
an increasingly isolated Prez who is going blind and bumping
into his own lies. There is already a trickle but nobody
wants to back a war that is not only lost but is clearly
just going to get worse. Again, back to Cindy, she has, like
a crystal seed, brought it all into focus and provided the
human essence to this awakening.

[clover]

76. that's what i've seen posted here, and this is my first stop for daily

news!

[Zhade]

57. You think showing a mother's grief is exploitive?

Perhaps you should direct your anger at those who caused her to feel the grief, instead of attacking those who think the world should see what the fuckers in the White House are doing to mothers like her here and around the world.

I mean, seriously - mountain out of a molehill, friend.

I agree with DA.

[StopTheMorans]

59. no, sensationalizing her grief is exploitive

[Zhade]

66. Well, if I thought that was what was happening, I'd agree with you.

Since I don't see that as the case, I don't agree with you.

[StopTheMorans]

75. fair enough, that's reasonable

[Autonomy]

84. StopTheMorans, you're overanalyzing a spontaneous outpouring

of sincere emotion. "Just the facts" have not been working to any great extent with the masses. They need a human face on the tragedy, and now they have one. Just go with it. Semper fidelis liberalis.

[StopTheMorans]

94. "a human face" and "exploiting a human face" are two very different things

[DistressedAmerican]

62. Stop Typing For Yourself!

:evilgrin:

Re: post 39

[Zhade]

65. I can't, it's an obsession.

NT!

[mtnester]

128. See, I will jump in with this...if Cindy had been a man, would you have

used the word "whoring" in reference to her face and press coverage?

Count me in with Eloriel and Distressed American..got your message lond and clear buddy.

[H2O Man]

129. Exactly.

It would make about as much sense to "discuss" Cindy without mentioning her pain and suffering, as it would be to talk about the war in Iraq without mentioning that people are dying and suffering there. While the post that suggested this may have been well intended, it is emotionally detached in a sense that healthy people should avoid.

[I Have A Dream]

144. I think that many people who have thus far been unreachable..

will be reached because they can empathize with her suffering. I think that her suffering opens the door to the hearts of many who would normally not be open to her ultimate message of getting out of Iraq.

Her message does not start with being an intellectual message -- it starts by being emotional. We are lucky that she's then able to take it to the next level and eloquently state what should be done to remedy the situation.

[clover]

33. BUT even *** acknowledges her grief! although he chuckled

when he did.

okay, so her grief will, we hope, invite others in this country to consider the antiwar position.

but---and we have all experienced grief in some measure--how do you feel when your grief is recalled for you by a stranger?

and how about 20 times a day?

grief, at least my experience of grief, reduces my cognition, my physical vitality, my world view.

if i were to think that ms. sheehan's civil disobedience was merely a grief show, then i would conclude she was borderline,seeking attention to meet some emotional need that was not being met elsewhere. i would then empathize with her, call her a "poor woman," as some DUers are inclined to do, and totally dismiss her as a political and cultural force.

i would love to hear from anyone else who has had traumatic grief, to gauge if i am totally off the mark here.

i believe cindy has moved past the destructive qualities of grief and to label her actions as primarily grief-driven is dismissive and will be used against her by the MSM.

paraphrase: i am in grief, but i am not stupid

what is the most important tag for her, according to her words, despite looking at her picture on a paragon of the MSM, newsweek? i read that it is her intelligence, not her pain.

[DistressedAmerican]

34. Her Grief Was A Catalyst For Me. Too Bad Not For You...

I openly cried when I saw here testify at the Conyers hearing. I got connected through that grief.

If you did not, I feel a bit sorry for ya.

[clover]

37. please provide more than a title, please expand your response

beyond some vague judgment of me
"too bad not for you"
unwilling to intuit your meaning

[Eloriel]

51. I don't think I agree with you

and in fact, you are factually wrong as well (if I understood you correctly). I saw a clip of her just a little bit ago in which she said, to the camera, "I have to try to stop this war and also grieve my son every single day."

Too, I'm not so sure what you mean when you say her grief is being used against her.

her grief is being used against her, as a way to water down her direct message, a standard tactic used against women who speak truth to power.

It is her grief which is fueling her efforts, her grief which totally and irrevokably humanizes her and gives her an incredible shield AGAINST the very exploitation you fear. At least IMO. Yeah, a Rush Limbaugh can try to make her look bad -- but she is inviolate, untouchable. He can't do it (except to those sociopathic listeners who wouldn't likely be sympathetic to Sheehan to begin with), and dirties himself while he tries.

Now, I'm not in favor of ALSO exploiting her grief -- but I don't think there's anything in the world wrong with talking about it honestly and openly, as she obviously does. "If she can do it, we can." Just as long as it's done with some sensitivity and compassion -- the very things those on the right are incapable of mustering especially if they're in the process of trying to demonize her.

[ultraist]

61. Well said, Eloriel!

It is her grief which is fueling her efforts, her grief which totally and irrevokably humanizes her and gives her an incredible shield AGAINST the very exploitation you fear.

This country has a real problem with shutting down the human, emotive consequences of war. Denial, sanitizing and scrubbing down, wont make the attrocities (or the human pain) go away.

[clover]

79. cindy will say what she wants to say, thank God, and until she says

that her primary mission is to exhibit her grief, i will choose to focus on what she says despite her grief, because she and her dedicated group of supporters have, i am sure, suggestions for direct action beyond crawford. if i am satisfied with feeling her pain, as spokesmen for ** say he does, then where will that take me and our country, barring practical suggestions and plans?
i am considering what that means, creating from my own deep grief an empirical plan.

[Eloriel]

103. It's not either/or

If that's what your underlying premise is:

until she says that her primary mission is to exhibit her grief,

She is USING her grief, just as John Walsh and Mark Klass and whoever the founder of Mothers Against Drunk Driving and Chris and Dana Reeve and countless others have used THEIR grief to go on to do something for society and this nation.

until she says that her primary mission is to exhibit her grief, i will choose to focus on what she says despite her grief, because she and her dedicated group of supporters have, i am sure, suggestions for direct action beyond crawford.

Just an aside: personally, I think it's a mistake and unfair to expect HEr to lead "direct actions beyond Crawford." That's not what she's about, as far as I can see. As for her supporters? Not sure.

if i am satisfied with feeling her pain, as spokesmen for ** say he does, then where will that take me and our country, barring practical suggestions and plans?]

As I tried to point out, IMO you can't separate the fact that she is a grieving mother of a slain soldier from anything she says or does. It's just not either/or. However, If YOU try to do that (separate the two), then I think you're trying to be emotionally sterile, and IMO that's a mistake. You're entitled to live your life -- esp. your emotional life (or lack thereof) -- anyway you want to, but believe me, at the moment there IS no separation of Cindy Sheehan from the fact of her grief and the reason for it. Even you would not be quite so interested and attentive to any other anti-war protester, period. (Well, possibly aside from other griving parents, that is.)

[clover]

109. thank you for your thoughtful response; it helps me to figure this out

but i believe that grief, to be honored, is set aside in time to be replaced with action, which i believe ms. sheehan is doing. i do not discount her grief or the powerful grief that many DU posters feel for her son's murder. it simply seems to me, and i am oftener wrong than right, that she has moved beyond the mind-numbing stage of grief and has found an honest, unafraid voice to speak. and it is cruel, at least in my own circle of family and friends, to comment beyond reason about one's grief, one's face of grief, when the grieving is moved into related action designed to prevent the grieving of others.

what happens when we all become satiated with media representations of her grief, when it no longer has the power of a new image to stir us from complacency? a mother's grief can kick-start a movement, and cindy has even more to offer beyond that.

"I think it's a mistake and unfair to expect HEr to lead "direct actions beyond Crawford."

on democracy now yesterday, in a live interview, she stated that all of the supporters in crawford, their actions, etc, are filtered through her. and that is exactly my point: she is exactly the woman i would like to see heading the peace movement at this time. it is her mind, spirit, dignity, and integrity that recommends her to me above all other antiwar activists, not her pained expressions, which are saturating this discussion, if not, as i fear, the MSM.

[clover]

104. "I have to try to stop this war and also grieve my son every single day."

and what did she state first? this woman is, at heart and from what i've seen in print, a damned good writer! a good writer will state the most important point at the outset.

my reading of this quote, paraphrased and filtered through my own personality and using my own imagination, as well all do, is this:

my mission is made all the more difficult because of my grief.

yes, my grief was the catalyst, but i would be speaking out no matter what had happened to my son, and that supports the validity of my position on the war/struggle, which we all should consider, grief or not, compassion or not

and i am not speaking for ms. sheehan, i have never met her, but where others intuit primarily grief in her statements and affect, i see righteous, deserved anger and tears of frustration, which i imagine any man or woman in her position--in crawford--would experience. her grief is NOT the story.


ie, the darfur report, DSM, 9-11 commission reports, halliburton, etc. : those are the stories

[KyndCulture]

16. HAHAHAHAHA diet coke on keyboard.

DA that so rocked....

[Stand and Fight]

17. You said it all! Kicked and recommended for the greatest! n/t

[dxstone]

20. Right outta the park, buddy!

Hilarious! Kicked and nominated!
I actually wasn't aware of that many naysayers on this here at DU... but you obviously are reading more posts than I am...
I know we have our little squabbles here... but anyone who DOESN'T see what Cindy is doing now as VERY hopeful and good for the country, well... smells a little fishy to me...
d



ps: Did you know he ACTUALLY SAID THAT??? I can't remember where or when, but it was in an interview somewhere... I had to use it, later wished I'd kept the attribution...
God, what a crock of shit this guy is! Snake oil, anyone?

[DistressedAmerican]

22. Here's a link for ya...

http://www.realitybasednation.com/blog-archives/2005/01/the_president_o.html

The guy is not the fucking president of ME!

[dxstone]

112. INDEED!

As in ALL things Bushy, the exact reverse is actually true:

He ain't the president of ANYBODY.
Just a sad psychotic evil delusional sub-intelligent cretin, in 'WAY over his head.

And so I see we agree again!
A toast to you!
:toast:

[dxstone]

113. ps: Sure are a lotta hair-splitters here today!

I coulda edited my last, but what's an extra kick or two 'tween buds?

[BrklynLiberal]

121. He thinks he is the effin' king of the entire world....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12450-2005Jan15_2.html
"I did my best to reach out, and I will continue to do so as
the president," Bush said. "It's important for people to
know that I'm the president of everybody."

http://www.energybulletin.net/5577.html
President Bush: I, I'm the president of everybody. And I --
look, I go to Fort Hood, Texas, and I sit down at a table
with a young solider and we're talking about his tour of duty.
And one of the first questions he asked me is what are you going
to do about gasoline prices, Mr. President?

http://rising-hegemon.blogspot.com/2005/01/everybodys-student-body-president.html
On the election Bush said he was puzzled that he received
only about 11 percent of the black vote, according to exit polls,
about a 2 percentage point increase over his 2000 total.

"I did my best to reach out, and I will continue to do so as
the president," Bush said. "It's important for people to
know that I'm the president of everybody."

If you google

"I'm the president of everybody",bush

You will get many hits.

Just shows what a total schmuck the man is.

[TankLV]

149. YOU WILL NEVER BE MY PRESIDENT, YOU AWOL LYING SACK OF SHIT!

I want to see you with the similar photograph as Mussolini had.

Only then can the world begin to be healed.

[mopinko]

25. correct as usual, sir.

keep the heat up, my friend.

[madrchsod]

29. ok here is my take...

after listening to her i have come to this conclusion...
she is an average mom, with an average life,and an average intelligence. she`s someone all rational people can look at and hear---just an average mom. the difference is that average mom woke up and got really pissed off-not the venom spewing hatred of the extremes but an average reasonable request.it`s just a request that most reasonable people can understand. but by bush not having the balls to diffuse her stand, he has to hide behind the wall of his own making..that wall that he thinks shields him from her. but it doesn`t does it.
bush created the monster now at his door and that monster is an average mom who stood up and said -no more.

wasn`t rosa just an average person who said no more?

[clover]

56. was rosa parks' pain the focus of her media coverage, was it the

foundation for her support then and now?

i guess i should be flattered being called whacked at my advanced age. how is my opinion of cindy's treatment by the media twisted to infer lack of support?

DA's postings, basically stating through subject headings:

you're crazy! i have LOTS OF SUPPORTERS here who back me

sure seem to mean
"there's the door, what's your hurry?"

write to cindy and tell her you feel her pain, that she has provided you with an emotional fix, and don't complain when the MSM and the *regime follow suit.

cindy sheehan is not simply a vessel for our nation's grief; she is telling us to feel not grief--THAT IS HER BURDEN--she is demanding that we accept the guilt and to affect change!

we are not burdened by the grief she is feeling--not yet, at least in my case--and so we have the energy she lacks at this time (affected by her son's loss, the heat, the fire ants, the gangster-in-chief, the media taking close ups of her as she cries in frustration)

i'll hang around for comments, as i am trying to figure out if i am alone in this assessment, which i guess is not too popular among the DU folks with the big avatars and cool graphics to replace carefully considered words.

when ms. sheehan releases a statement of intent asking me to grieve with her, i will. SHE is in charge here!

[clover]

71. PS: your satirical piece at the top of this thread is good, and

responses to it sparked my own consideration of what i posted. so i thank you, although, to be honest, your defensiveness is kinda scary. and the name-calling diminishes your authorial voice in retrospect, so i recall your satire with less affection than i felt, speaking of emotion, during my first reading.

[DistressedAmerican]

92. See Post 91

[clover]

95. yes sir, i followed your instructions to see post 91,but who said

--it wasn't me--that anyone is being "turned off" by cindy?

but why not have our rational minds turned on as well as our wellsprings of empathy?

[DistressedAmerican]

107. Would You Mind Explaining Why BOTH Can Not Work In Concert?

I have no problem balancing the two. Most humans can do that. These are not mutually exclusive responses. Often times logic and emotion work beautifully together. I simply disagree with the dichotomy. They are not incongruous at all.

[clover]

111. of course they can! but when you are in a highly emotional state

don't you find your functioning a bit impaired? if not, what is the incentive to heal? isn' t the faith and hope for a tempering of the emotional pain, so that one can continue with a mission, even if it was sparked by tragedy?

you are cruel if you are suggesting that to move beyond grief, at least in one's daily functioning, is negating the triggering tragedy, in this case the murder of a son.

if cindy's grief was disabling--if she is a "poor woman," as another DUer posted when scooping others with her pic from newsweek--she would NOT be in crawford, she would be home, i assume, perhaps posting 1000+ diatribes on some internet forum.

as we cry when watching CSPAN, etc. she is beyond public tears, whether photographed to sell magazines, or posted on DU to increase one's posting count score, i find it pornographic, designed to inflame emotion, which is, for those in grief, often disabling.

focus on cindy sheehan's words. i'm sure she cries in the arms of those she loves and trusts. leave it to those good folks to comfort her. leave it to *** to state the obvious, that he "feels her pain." who the hell doesn't? agreed?

we are strangers to her, no matter how much we cry for her. our tears are fruitless, unlike hers, which have led her to this place, crawford, at this time, the collapse of an empire.

[Gold Metal Flake]

40. !!!

:hi:

[phatkatt]

49. One small correction: Montgomery NOT Birmingham

Everything else is right on.

[idlisambar]

55. good one, got the message n/t

[marions ghost]

67. learned helplessness

as u say, "they can no longer imagine winning." That's what happens to people when they become downtrodden. We cannot let them them do this to us. We have the numbers. We have the truth.

Rosa Parks would have had every reason to feel severely downtrodden. Her times were JUST as rigid and repressive as these. We Liberals have been made to feel as unwelcome as Rosa was, wherever we go. We have been effectively marginalized. But still Rosa stood up when and where it counted, and things started to change. Can you imagine Rosa's mental conflict in deciding on such a simple act? Very similar to Cindy's when she suddenly decided to confront the man who asked her son to die for an unworthy cause. What Cindy is doing is NOT easy. She is acting as a lightning rod for the movement to end this immoral war. She has stuck her neck out. And it remains to be seen what will happen.

Keep putting out your positive strong messages, DA.

[H2O Man]

80. Thank you.

It's a sad day when people take the stick-in-the-mud or knot-on-the-wall attitude. It is a great day when people say, "YES!"

[corkhead]

89. NICE! / I thought at first "who kidnapped DA"...

I didn't see how your message was exploitave. I thought you brought the point home solid in an imaginative way.

BTW,
I like your new sigline pic better than the pirate flag.

:toast: :yourock:

[clover]

114. "I like your new sigline pic better than the pirate flag."

how is this on-topic? kudos to a DU oldtimer?

[DistressedAmerican]

115. Just an observation for my eyes primarily. Lighten up a bit.

[clover]

116. i have students in iraq, hard to lighten up today: BTW jeff gannon says

August 11, 2005
Newspaper exposes pro-terror groups supporting Sheehan

As a followup to my column about the radical Code Pink, I present to you an editorial from the NY Sun. It nails down the groups that have adopted a grieving mother to be the sympathetic face for their anti-American, pro-terrorist agenda.

www.jeffgannon.com


"grieving mother to be the sympathetic face"

they recognize her "grief" and they will use it against her, and i won't help them.

thanks for the conversation, however loopy it turned out to be.

[DistressedAmerican]

117. Anytime!

Gannon be damned. No one reads his shit but, the predisposed anti-Sheehan crowd. I wouldn't take that as evidence relating to the average american.

Looks like we can agree to disagree on this one. Have a good one and keep fighting!

[clover]

118. i got the gannon link from the DU board, so his audience might

be broader than you imagine.
so at least gannon is guilty of exploiting a woman's grief, and i fear more will follow unless grief is followed by actions beyond crawford.

you have a good one, too. it seems that you have a secure home at DU, with lots of cheerleaders, and for that i envy and admire you.

it's off to work for me now!

peace love and understanding.

"don't change before the empire falls
you'll laugh so hard you'll crack the walls."

--slick& kantner

[DistressedAmerican]

119. Plenty Of Ditractors Too.

Get like 8 or 9 thousand posts and you should feel right at home.

:bounce:

[clover]

120. yes, you are the man. sorry i'm not as popular or limber at the keyboard

hope you make 10,000 soon and that you are honored by your huge contingent of supporters and--if you enjoy that sort of thing--growled at by your detractors. enjoy your day online!

[DistressedAmerican]

125. Why Do I Get The Feeling You Are Being Snarky Here?

Does it bother you that I blog a lot? Does it bother you that my teaching job allows me to stay home in the summer (usually off doing field work. but I have a new baby that I am taking care of)? Does it bother you that some people like what I post?

I get rather of these implications that I have no job or some such nonsense. Please tell me you are not going there.

The more I think about this exchange, the less friendly it sounds to me.

Hopefully, I am wrong...

[corkhead]

123. yeah, like me, you spelled "ditractors" wrong!

:spank:

[corkhead]

122. I was just trying to be efficient

the main point of my message was on message, which was that he did an excellent job of bringing some words of encouragement to a group of people who at times appear to be wound a bit tight. We are not going to get anywhere to regain control of our country if we keep wallowing in self pitty.

That part of my message that you highlighted I wanted to throw in to DA while I was at it. Sorry it was a bother for you to read.

I wasn't sure you were serious but I didn't see any smileys

peace

[confludemocrat]

101. One awesome post. Thanks (n/t)

[Tinoire]

110. One hell of a TERRIFIC post! Recommended

:loveya:

[the other one]

124. What specific analogy are you trying to make?

Or are you just trying to sound like my old highschool football coach's cliched "winners never quit and quitters never win" speeches.

How about comparing the current situation with the vietnam protests. They began in the mid-sixties and were essentially ineffective. The vietnam war ended when there was no money left to fight - it was a business decision. 10+ years of protests did nothing. Of course that was during a time when the media was considerably more "independent" and were willing to criticize the presidency. Can you imagine Watergate happening today? Election-fraud-gate, Gannon-gate, memo-gate, plame-gate...I am getting tired of waiting for traction.

Iraq will end when Bush leaves office. We can shout til we are all in a blue-faced state, it won't do anything but make us more frustrated. Things will change in their time

I'm no defeatist, but I know that an ant can't move a rubber tree plant. I would be lying if I said that I had high hopes...

[DistressedAmerican]

126. Well, That's A Shame For You. Fortunately There Are Plenty That Disagree.

This sounds like the very learned helplessness that I was refering to.

This story is getting traction due to the individaul efforts of a single woman who stood up and spoke truth to power. If you fail to appreciate that parallel, I'm not going to spend my time elaborating. Most eveyone else seems to get and agree with the analogy.

Feel free to start another thread if you think you have a better one...

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kurovski]

130. Oh, so very, very well played!

Added my nomination to the growing number.

[Used and Abused]

132. I'm a naysayer, but not in regards to Cindy Sheehan

I love what she is doing and I think more people need to do it.

I naysay when it comes to expecting Dem senators to stand up for us. I naysay when it comes to expecting already stolen elections to be overturned.

[GoneOffShore]

133. Yes, this COULD be a bell weather moment

for the anti war movement, BUT, only if the protest on 24 September focuses on impeaching Bush and ending the war in Iraq. Anything else besides ending the war in Iraq and impeaching Bush is superfluous. Unfortunately, what's going to happen on 24 September will be a " End the War in Iraq, Impeach Bush, Get Sharon Out of Palestine, Free Leonard Pelletier, Free Mumia, End Third World Poverty, Cure AIDS, End Circumcision, End Racism, Save the Whales, Abolish the World Bank and IMF, Anarchy for Everyone" Rally.

[DistressedAmerican]

134. Don't Believe It! This Is Anti-War All The Way. Just Watch.

[tavalon]

135. You hit that nail

right on the head. Great post!

[Kire]

136. Rosa Parks and Mrs. King called Cindy today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4336289

[DistressedAmerican]

139. Freaking Awesome!!!

Woo Hoo!

[Hekate]

137. Well done! You put a big smile on my face

:hi:

Hekate

[0007]

138. junior the real killer of life.

[ananda]

140. The excuse for segregation is..

.. "education." When whites don't want to go to school with blacks, they manage to find a court that will allow them to move their kids.

Sue

[I Have A Dream]

143. As usual, DistressedAmerican, you have clarity of vision that...

often fails some of the rest of us. Thanks for showing it so clearly with this analogy.

[lonestarnot]

148. Never damn surrender! NEVER!

[Bluebear]

151. Again!

one more kick beofre it drops