Has anyone thought of the implications of this (Iraq War issue)..

[HardWorkingDem]

First a caveat....from the start I knew that the Bushies were manipulating the American people and lying about Iraq. I am 100 percent against the Iraq War and can't stand the Bushies for what they have done. But this leads me to what I think is a thorny issue and haven't really seen it addressed anywhere.

What if the US were to pull out of Iraq? Has anyone given the implications of this a great deal of thought? Additionally, I think those opposing the Bushies could come up with a workable plans to do so, but that the Bushies would never implement the plans of those outside of their administration.

Also, compare this to Vietnam and the growth of the military/industrial complex and what a pull out could say about the American military might and deterrence in the future.

We will again be faced with the concept of "losing" another war to a seen much lesser enemy and I wonder if those in government will take such a thought to hugely increase military spending even more.

My main thought in all of this is that if the right people are consulted (The Atlantic magazine had two great articles on Iraq over the past couple of years. One was called Blind into Baghdad and PBS broadcast two wonderful documentaries) then there might be a successful pull out, but my fear is the Bushies won't pay attention to anyone they disagree with.

(I'm sure people will offer numerous flames or accusations about being a fake poster, but this is something we have to think of - just how do we pull out of Iraq? And what are the implications for the next five, ten, fifteen, fifty et cetera years).

What are other peoples' ideas?

[ClassWarrior]

1. We ARE the instability there. We pull out immediately. The UN sends in...

...peacekeeping forces, and begins an international reconstruction effort.

We return to peace and prosperity.

NGU.

[Telly Savalas]

12. Which UN member states will send troops?

Is there a country in the world where the populace is thinking "whoo-boy I'd love to send our troops off to Iraq to get killed if only that damn U.S. would get out of the way"?

But I agree that our presence there is a big source of instability. Pottery Barn Democrats are deluding themselves if they think that a continued occupation is going to get us anywhere. They may have some great ideas on how to run things much more efficiently than Bush, but they haven't demonstrated how if we stick it out long enough the "insurgency" will fade away.

[Jara sang]

2. If we pulled out now

The republicans would lose all of their political capital. The troops that returned home would be quickly forgotten and swept under the rug. Programs that "help the troops" are virtually non-existent now and the ones that really need help will get none under the republicans and the Bush administration. The media would of course report none of this.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. Just think of all the weapons we are going to be able to get the

Iraqi puppet government to spend their peoples' oil money on. Imagine the yachts we will be able to purchase.... can't wait.

[Webster Green]

4. We've already lost the "war".,....

Occupations never work. There is no "job" to finish. The invasion was illegal and idiotic.

The chimp and his thugs have already forgotten about Iraq. They are getting ready to attack Iran. Since they have no more troops, they will use nukes.

That should get things stirred up pretty good!

[Warren Stupidity]

5. The official "But we can't just pullout" thread du jour.

So we've given up on 'WMD' as the reason why we are killing Iraqis and occupying their land.

We've given up on "evil saddam' as the reason why we are killing Iraqis and occupying their land.

We've given up on "freedomanddemmocracy" as the reason why we are killing Iraqis and occupying their land.

Now the official Reason is: "sure it was all a big mistake but we can't stop killing Iraqis until we've fixed up the mess we made."

Weren't no mistake at all. It was a crime.

[TahitiNut]

7. "Weren't no mistake at all. It was a crime." Ubetcha!

And the "poor criminal" just can't be convinced to stop raping and pillaging. :eyes:

[TahitiNut]

6. The alternative is a blank check denominated in lives ...

... with absolutely NO ASSURANCE that it "buys" anything of value.

This whole 'discussion' about rationalizing the occupation on the basis of 'harm' that has ALREADY BEEN DONE but which the arguers claim somehow results from pulling out ... brings to mind an image of a mugger with his knife embedded in his victim, rifling the pockets of the victim, and claiming "if I pull it out, he'll bleed all over the carpet!"

The Bushoilinis are nothing better than muggers and bushwhackers ... and they have a habit of denying responsibility but claiming credit for their victims' recoveries! They've mugged the economy and, as it staggers to its feet alone, they claim credit for helping it. They've mugged the working class and, as workers desperately find lower-paying jobs, they claim credit for jobs growth. They're malicious, lying bastards that add insult to every injury!

[HardWorkingDem]

8. Back to the original question....

Yes, we all know that the Bushies war on Iraq is illegal, unjust and should never have happened, so back to my original point - and I think this area is where the Democrats have an awful chance of getting boxed in - how will a pull out work and what are the implications of hasty one that is not well thought out.

For example, does anyone else think that behind closed doors the Chinese and North Koreans are laughing their asses off when it comes to the fear of American military might? I mean, here we have the supposed premiere military might in the world having a hard time with "insurgents." For a comparison, when the Afghan rebels fought off the Soviet Union, what was our perception of the Soviet Union's military? We looked on in awe at how a group of rag tag guerrillas could fight off a superpower.

And what I mean by the Democrats being boxed in is if the Rethuglican noise machine has their way, it will take the left's wishes of an immediate pull out as the same thing as not caring if America "loses" another war. Look at how the war crowd painted the media and left as America haters after Vietnam (I'm not saying it's true, only that it happened and they were somewhat successful about it).

My main point is that if a pull out is not done correctly terrible implications could result and more terrible ones than us on the left being able to declare "we told you the Bushies were wrong."

[Warren Stupidity]

9. We paid the price 30 years ago

and I will gladly pay it again. If getting us out of Iraq, if ending our criminal occupation of Iraq means that 'the left' pays a political price at home, so be it.

That doesn't mean we have to be stupid, or not learn from vietnam (or WWI and post WWI Germany for that matter.) And we have learned. Nobody is chanting the equivalent of Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, we are supporting the troops every way we can, except we want them out. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared for the blaming myths that they will develop.

[TahitiNut]

10. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

Trespassers don't get to say "let me think about that" just because they're already there. Burglars don't get to say "not until I wipe off my fingerprints" when one in the family screams for them to leave.

We're there illegally and every day we remain costs more lives, more millions, and exacerbates the crime.

Iraq's internal affairs are for Iraqis to solve -- and NOT under the guns of an invasion/occupying foreign military force. The sole legitimate form of government is the one they are willing to put in place for themselves. All foreign force is criminal.

Forcing 'freedom' on a nation is like forcing 'love' on a woman -- it's rape!

The 'arguments' I hear posed about leaving Iraq have a familiar ring. While the comparisons to Viet Nam are familiar, perhaps it would be fruitful to review the historical arguments against abolition in the days of slavery. "It must be done gradually" many would say. "Not until they're ready for freedom" others would say. "They're not competent to be free yet" a huge number said. It was paternalistic bullshit then and it's paternalistic bullshit now.

Yes, I done quite a bit of thinking on the subject. :grr:

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. ok ok, lets take this one at a time

What if the US were to pull out of Iraq?

1.- Worst Case Scenario, we just pull out, vacuum is left in place... the civil war starts, Syria, and Iran split the place up. (Chances of this happening are actually higher than I care to consider)

2.- We actually approach the UN (With Bolton, right), and get UN Forces from the Arab World to keep the factions separated until a new government rises, chances, a Fundamentalist Sh ia Republic... which will make Iran look like a picnic... but we made that bed

3.- Somehow we manage to convince the world that we will pay reparations, and pay for the deployment of both a UN Force, and multiple humanitarian teams, to do what needs to be done. Reparations not only to the country but also to the families themselves. Oh and we shall actually pay for the rebuilding of the country.. but pull out American companies... for quite obvious reasons. Of course the cynic in me tells me the bin Ladin group will get these contracts.

as to your fears, if and when we pull out (I am betting by 06 they will declare victory and go home) it will be sudden, no planning whatsoever and look at scenario number one as quite a possibility... oh did I mention that could go down the road of a regional war?

Oh and as to the power of the US... give up the ghost, we are no longer a superpower. This is another of Dubya's legacies to the country... as is you realize that many components in our advanced weapons are made in Taiwan and Japan? But I am sure you already knew that

[Imagevision]

13. So many military bloggers are reporting they still don't have armor

Any commander on the ground who asks for more troops is threatened by being fired, demoted and the loss of a career.

Rumsfeld made the point loud and clear! So they're fighting a war with 2-3 time troop tours of duty in Iraq, with the only exception to sending more US. troops for their Dec. election.

We've already seen how successful the last elction was - people came out to vote, since then 1800+ Iraqi ciivilians got dead. Yeah! the election was a tremendous success, even the judge who accepted Saddam's not guilty plea was gunned down 3-4 months ago!

[steve2470]

14. As fast as possible.

I'm sure the military would be smart enough to know how to do it. If Bush leaves them alone, as well as Rumsfield. Things might actually quiet down as soon as we leave.