Is Wesley Clark TOO much of a threat?

[Pepperbelly]

Bartcop pointed this out today and I thought that some might want to discuss. I confess that I have had moments of worry over this sort of thing. Are Bartcop and I just paranoid?

-snip-

"Rumsfeld and Cheney are trying to close down access to government."
-- Wesley Clark, Rolling Stone Interview


The GOP is throwing everything they have at Clark.
His candidacy is a big, big threat to the hundreds of billions yet to be stolen.

John Kennedy Jr was a threat to them - as was Paul Wellstone.
We live in scary times.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. I Worry About This Too

I'm about as non-conspiracy minded as you can get. But the fact is, Wes Clark's election would cost many rich people a lot of money. Any one of them would have the motive to stop him in his tracks, and the means and opportunity to do so.

:scared:

DTH

[union_maid]

44. I've been thinking about this since he started running

The reason I think Clark is more of a perceived danger to them is his potential for coattails and for reducing their base to just the wingnuts and for making it OK for the people who benefit from liberal values to embrace them. I think the RW would prefer to run against Dean if they have to choose between the two because first of all they believe they have a better chance of beating him, but even if they didn't, he'd , at least in their estimation, could be dealt with more easily if he did win. After all, winning the presidential election is only the first step.

I think that the biggest difference between the candidates in the view of the RW and also in the view of Clark supporters is that Dean has a shot at prevailing and has the ability to bring out everyone who is not happy about this particularly odious administration and maybe, just maybe, win this election. Clark OTOH has the ability to make a deeper change in the electorate and bring more people over from the dark side. It's the difference between the New Patriotism and Take Back Our Country. Both are a call to everyone, but the former can change perceptions and the other will mobilize those share the perception that's implicit in the statement and put those who don't see it as yet on the defensive. That's why Clark's the threat. That's why it was RFK and MLK and not Eugene McCarthy who wound up dead in '68.

[kentuck]

2. I have thought the same...

Clark could go down like RFK...I hope not, but the thought has crossed my mind.

[knight_of_the_star]

11. I've been saying that for the past month!

The only thing that could stop Clark from running Bush into the dirt would be getting hit by a train or something similarly fatal! It would not surprise me if "some lone gunman" blasts him in the middle of a crowd, or alone, or he suffers a "terrible accident". It would suit them too well, I do not doubt that they would cause SOMETHING like that to happen.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

20. Clark and RFK in the same sentence?

Get a hold on yourself.

[Upfront]

28. Get aa Grip

They never go after the VP. Sorry, just kidding. I think they are capable of anything.:)

[_NorCal_D_]

3. That's

a frightening concept. I wouldn't put it past them.

[boxster]

4. Maybe I'm too much of a skeptic or naive, but

I think the threat is overblown.

Besides, while BushCo is certainly capable of evil, if we are going to merely hide in fear of retribution, we might as well give up now.

Edit: minor wording change

[ElementaryPenguin]

5. Perhaps so - which is precisely why we need several viable candidates!!

We can't have enough of 'em - which is why we really should refrain from bashing the shit out of each others' non-repuke candidates!!!

[leetrisck]

6. Right on - and we have 10 good

Democratic candidates

[Egnever]

7. Yes hes a huge threat!

To the dem party!

Sry but if this guy gets the nod my afiliation with the dem party will be over right after voting bush out.

I would rather vote for lieberman than clark at this point. Maybe when he starts having positions to stand behind my mind will change. Of course I dont put a whole lot of stock in positions given to him by his handlers.

[Pepperbelly]

10. ok, then ...

show when Dean has addressed THIS issue with the same sense, morality and fire:

"The most effective way to help an unemployed worker is not to run out and borrow billions of dollars to give to millionaires. That's what they're doing when they pass these massive tax cuts for the rich that deepen the deficit. They're borrowing billions of dollars to give to millionaires. It ought to be obvious by now - it just doesn't work."

Now what in the heck is wrong with his statement?

[Egnever]

19. That was easy

Whats wrtong with the statement from clark is exactly whats wrong with his candidacy. It says nothing. Trickle down economics doesnt work.... Duh. Whats your plan?

Heres just one instance of dean addressing the same issue. Something he talks about in almost every speach when he talks about giving the mnoney to ken lay and the boys.

"The economic policies of the Bush Administration are misguided, unfair, and unsuccessful.

They fail to meet the basic standard of economic justice: decent, well-paying jobs for all who want them. They are policies that have created a legacy of debt for future generations. Huge tax cuts that benefit the wealthy are starving essential government services like education and homeland security and forcing states and local governments to increase sales, income, and property taxes. While America’s wealthiest individuals -- those in the top 2 percent of income brackets -- receive the bulk of the tax cuts, America’s middle class is left behind.

Since this Administration took office, nearly three million Americans have seen their jobs disappear. The unemployment rate has risen to over 6%. Nine million people are unemployed, and countless more have joined the ranks of discouraged workers and dropped out of the labor market entirely. Millions of Americans, from young people just out of school, to others who are the victims of massive layoffs, are underemployed in jobs that fail to take advantage of their talents or reward their reasonable expectations. Too many of our fellow citizens are laboring at subsistence-pay levels without benefits or prospects of advancement.

Month after month, for nearly three years, manufacturers have fired more workers than they hired, and the world-class manufacturing sector that has been the heart of America’s strength continues to shrink.

Meanwhile, the federal budget deficit now estimated to be more than $450 billion this year soars out of control, with no relief in sight. The Bush Administration philosophy has become “borrow and spend” and let our children and grandchildren pick up the pieces.

But the truth is that this Administration’s economic agenda is about far more than budgets and deficits. The ideologues gathered around the President have a more ambitious goal -- to repeal the progressive legacy of the twentieth century. They want to return to a time when private wealth was insulated from the graduated income tax, and the many labored for the benefit of the few. They would ignore the widening gap between rich and poor, shred the safety nets that provide at least some protection for the unfortunate, and dismantle the safeguards that protect consumers and workers alike.

I believe we must take drastic actions to repair the damage that this President is inflicting on our economy.

As Governor for more than 10 years, I guided the Vermont economy through two Bush recessions. Despite economic uncertainty, I was able to reduce taxes, maintain a balanced budget, expand health care, and increase funding for education.

My economic policies for America are based on four fundamentals:

Repeal the Bush tax cuts, and use those funds to pay for universal health care, homeland security, and investments in job creation that benefit all Americans.
Set the nation on the path to a balanced budget, recognizing that we cannot have social or economic justice without a sound fiscal foundation.
Create a fairer and simpler system of taxation.
Assure that Social Security and Medicare are adequately funded to meet the needs of the next generation of retirees.
I know what it takes to generate economic growth. As President, I will work tirelessly to put the American economy back on the road to prosperity not just for the favored few, but for all. "

[Pepperbelly]

22. platitudes ...

Here is a REAL job plan:

"First: The Homeland and Economic Security Fund would invest $40 billion over two years to directly fund jobs that immediately improve our security. The Bush Administration has shortchanged vital areas of homeland security. The Council on Foreign Relations released a bipartisan study this summer that said that the nation is dramatically underfunding efforts to prepare police, fire and ambulance personnel for terrorist attacks. This fund would improve our defenses against terrorist attack by paying to train more firefighters and police officers, hire more Coast Guard, customs Service, and law enforcement personnel. The fund would also pay for construction projects to safeguard bridges, ports and tunnels; and fund high-tech efforts to develop ways to detect biological and chemical weapons and materials.

Second: Another $40 billion will go to the State and Local Tax Rebate Fund. Mr. Bush's tax cuts have had a brutal effect on state governments. In some states, their tax code is linked directly to the federal tax code, so a tax cut at the federal level translates into automatic tax cuts at the state level. But the states, unlike the federal government, must balance their budgets - so the Bush tax cuts force state budget cuts in areas such as education and health - even in prisons. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has concluded that state budget cuts could push nearly 2 million people off Medicaid - denying poor mothers the chance to take a sick baby to the doctor.

My plan will give $20 billion to states to help keep tuition increases down and help state and local government train workers for new jobs. Another ten billion will go to states to help them meet the increasing cost of health care. The final ten billion will help states fund important jobs in law enforcement, corrections and social services.

Finally, my plan will set aside $20 billion over two years for Tax Incentives for Job Creation. Businesses are not hiring new employees even though the economy is growing, partly because the growth is weak and businesses aren't sure it will last. I'm proposing a new job creation tax credit that will reduce the cost for a business to hire a new employee. The plan will offer up to $5,000 tax credit for each additional full-time employee any business hires in 2004 and 2005. The plan will also encourage small and medium-sized businesses to invest in new equipment by allowing these firms to write-off up to $150,000 in investments over the next two years.

If any businesses are thinking of buying major new equipment over the next several years, this tax change will encourage them to do it now, and create the stimulus when the economy most needs it. As President, I will also order an immediate review to determine whether any tax and spending provisions provide manufacturing firms an incentive to move jobs overseas. No tax incentives offered by the government of the United States should harm the workers of the United States. At the same time, we will review trade agreements to make sure our trading partners have opened their markets to our goods. We will insist that China should play by international norms and not set its currency at artificially low levels that give their exports unfair advantage, and we will reverse the cuts Mr. Bush has made to the Manufacturing Extension partnership - a project that is shown to help firms increase or retain jobs.

Again, this $100 billion, two-year Job Creation Plan will not increase the deficit. It simply moves $100 billion from tax cuts for households making more than $200,000 a year and directs it to job creating funds that will help middle-income and working class families."

http://clark04.com/speeches/002/

[DoveTurnedHawk]

23. Clark's Plan on This Is Better and More Detailed, IMO

And I'm sure he'll be coming out with more positions as the weeks wear on.

DTH

[w4rma]

48. Speech by Dean titled: "More Jobs for America"

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_speech_economy_morejobsforamerica

[Padraig18]

8. As one who was born in Ireland...

... ,a land more recently freed than America, I can only tell you to be of stout heart.

"It is better to die on your feet with a weapon in your hands, as do free men, than to remain on your knees as slaves to a foreign opressor." --- Padraig Pearse

:thumbsup:

[knight_of_the_star]

12. Huzzah to that!

If Wes Clark falls in the line of duty, then I will most certainly mourn his passing, then pick up the pace and fight twice as hard to see that Bush and Co are delivered swiftly to the Hague to stand trial for their crimes!

[Padraig18]

18. Aye!

If ANY of our warriors fall, we must pick up their fallen standard, rally the troops and re-double our efforts, but we must never, never, NEVER give up until victory is ours! :)

[knight_of_the_star]

21. AYE!!!

No mercy! My ancestors would roll over in their graves for having given their lives at Bannockburn for me just to give up when victory is so near!!!

[Wapsie B]

9. My thoughts exactly.

If you get too close to the truth in this country and threaten the wrong group of people, you will be done away with.

[salin]

13. PB, a side comment if I may (way off track - sorry in advance).

I can't remember the story - but several months ago I remember you describing a reaction to one of the bush fiasco/lies and stating that you were shaken - and suddenly could believe almost anything from this cabal. I took it to be the 'aha' moment, when those of us who are very pragmatic, still cynical but not prone to tinfoil, realize that one of those tinfoily types of things we used to dismiss.. was actually real. It struck me when I read it.

Me, my mother introduced the idea of the October Surprise to me probably back in 1987, or 1988. I hated the Reagan admin. But really believed that as bad as they were, there was no way they would intentionally let those hostages - stay in that state for an additional month - just to win an election. Just thought that was to inhuman to project on them.

Then about 4 years later I had a friend whose very conservative father (go Reagan! sorta guy) had been on the legal negotiating team for the hostages (under Carter) who described how the deal close to done ... all but signed... just working on the details... when suddenly at the last hour - the Iranians pulled EVERYTHING off the table. With NO explanation. BOOM in my world. Confirmation in my mind. It happened. I had my awakening.

Now I don't see tin as often as many do. I don't see tin, for example, in the tragedy of Wellstone. But I do believe in aspects of LIHOP.

All that side comment - is my reaction to reading your final comment (Wellstone, John John) - and my memory of reading your comment and, I believe, what seemed to be that awakening moment.

Wonder if some people in America are having that moment tonight?

[blm]

14. I hear ya' Pepperbelly.

I think it's one of the reasons Kerry became more "aloof" living with rightwing death threats for over 30 years, and the enemy he made in the BFEE. Maybe that's why he prefers to fly his OWN plane.

Does Clark fly?

[knight_of_the_star]

17. I hope not

Should we send him e-mails to use the train instead?

[MoonRiver]

15. It's the same in any totalitarian government, real or wannabe.

Those in power will do anything to squash the opposition. We're not quite there yet, but if BFEE steals another election it's all but certain the number of "accidental" political deaths will skyrocket, and we peons will be relegated to the Gulag. I hope it doesn't get that bad, but I fear it will. :scared:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

16. If they shoot Clark we'll know he was a true Democrat

of course, by then it would be too late...
/sarcasm

[LizW]

49. That's terrible

And I feel really, really bad that I LOL'd.

It's true that Clark, and all the candidates are safe because the Democratic field is so strong. If the take out one, another will rise up in his place PLUS the people's eyes will be opened once and for all.

The Repugs won't risk that. They'll do what they know is tried and tested. Lies, innuendo, personal destruction, endless badgering. Not that I think they're above assassination. They just know it would blow their cover.

[Jim Sagle]

24. They wouldn't DARE - not with Dean and Kerry as backup.

There would be a MASSIVE outpouring of Democratic support.

They'd have to wait until he took office and kill him then.

[Darranar]

25. Against THEM...

I'd defend anyone.

I think the GOP is afraid of all the candidates. They're all speaking out and all of them are standing up for what they believe in.

The "electibility" of each candidate doesn't matter much to me - this will be an election to defeat Bush, not to elect whoever the nominee is.

Despite my own reservations about General Clark, I support his attacks on the Bush Administration and if he wins the nomination I will stand behind him 100%.

[Pepperbelly]

26. I think that even the most partisan folk against Clark must admit that ...

the rightwingers seem to hate him so much their hair must hurt.

[Eloriel]

33. It's not the rightwingers hating Clark (or anyone) that worries me

It's the leftwingers (DNC, DLC, CLINTONS) fearing Dean so much they pushed Clark into the race that worries the hell out of me.

THAT is the ultimate betrayal. Can't let The People pick their nominee, gotta stop Dean.

Eloriel

[Pepperbelly]

40. What?

I'm not a 'people'? The other supporters aren't a 'people'? That's kinda odd, isn't it? I THINK I'm a people.

hmmmm...

[Prodemsouth]

27. No matter where you sit on the left, no matter if you support Dean, Kuch,

Nader, Sharpton, Mosley Braun. We should all act up- we will have to convince them that their complete control -will be very expensive. This is the only thing we can do- we should make it clear that they can't do this.

[Donna Zen]

29. Krugman's warning: assume the worst

From 10/02 Rolling Stone:

Deconstructing Bush

1) Don't assume that policy proposals make sense in terms of their stated goals.

2) Do some homework to discover the real goals.

3) Don't assume that the usual rules of politics apply.

4) Expect a revolutionary power to respond to criticism by attacking.

5) Don't think that there's a limit to a revolutionary power's objectives.

Krugman sets up this long article with this premise:

....snip..........

Back in 1957, Kissinger published his doctoral dissertation, A World Restored. One wouldn't think that a book about the reconstruction of Europe after the battle of Waterloo is relevant to US politics in the twenty-first century. But the first three pages of Kissinger's book sent chills down my spine, because they seem all too relevant to crrent events.

Kissinger describes the problems confronting a heretofore stable diplomatic system when it is faced with a "revolutionary power"--a power that does not accept that system's legitimacy. He had in mind the France of Robespierre and Napoleon, but it seems clear to me that one should regard America's right-wing movement as a revolutionary power in Kissinger sense--that is, a movement whose leaders do not accept the legitimacy of our current political system.

Am I overstating the case? In fact, there's ample evidence that key elements of the coalition that now runs the country believe that some long-established American political and social institutions should not, in principle exist--and do not accept the rules that the rest of us have taken for granted.
--------------------------------

Thoughts: I put nothing passed the regime; this is high stakes gaming and they are sure they are right. If you had decided to run for president, would you have thought about the possibility of assassination? I would have. I believe the Clarks have...too sad, but also somewhat reassuring. BTW, if you missed the Krugman in Rolling Stone, it a long article and well worth the read.

[VOX]

38. Whoa, this is sobering. Nothing we didn't know, but...

Seeing it in black and white always brings it home. This is seriously dark stuff.

[LizW]

50. Thanks for posting that, Donna Zen

I just bought Krugman's book yesterday and that article is the basis for his Introduction. I had not read it before, and I was amazed!

He is so clear, absolutely dead-on in his assessment of what the right is doing, and what they are capable of. I've only read about 20 pages, and I'm blown away. And terrified.

[JI7]

30. agree

i'm very scared of it.

[KittyWampus]

31. Pepperbelly, Some People Live For The Greater Good

My Kabbalisitic study group was discussing General Clark this past weekend. It was commented that a Self Realized (Enlightened) person can walk the path of a Military Career just as well as any other profession.

My opinion of Clark is that he is very much "Where he is supposed to be in History".

Although we can ALL claim to Being where we are meant to be, should we put in the effort to reach mastery in our given task in Life, some have a much greater and more profound influence on the course of human events.

I firmly believe that the cycle of corruption and manipulation is already over... we are just watching (those of us on the Left) as the sun begins to rise.

I also have the feeling that there are those who are watching Clark's back.

[maggrwaggr]

32. I think the only reason Clark is running is because he knows what a threat

Bushco is to the world, and to the United States.

At first I didn't trust the guy, but now I'm convinced that he's a good man who knows a HELL of a lot more than your average guy (including most of the other candidates) about what's really going on.

And he's willing to risk it all to try to stop them the only way he knows how.

Not to sound dramatic, but it's a dramatic situation. He knows that their plan was not just to invade Iraq, but six other countries. He knows that would be a disater.

[catforclark2004]

35. Clark understands the PNAC mentality...Knows they are all Chickenhawks

The General is fearless (remember the 4 bullets that he took and kept on going in Vietnam)and I also believe that he knows that what is in the heart of these Neo-cons is not to the best interest of neither Americans nor American Troups (Clark is knowns as a Soldier's soldier). Clark knows much more than we can ever imagine....he's been in the trenches for 33 years! His new book "Winning Mordern Wars" is the anti-Pnac ideology.

He better get through this allright...cause the man is just too Fine...!

Ps. General Clark speaks fluent Spanish, French and Russian for those who didn't know.

[DemExpat]

36. I also have this assessment of Clark....

he really does want to stop Bushco....

He is also the only one (Dem Presidential candidate) who might be able to IMO.

It's all pretty scary though....:scared:

:kick:

DemEx

[juajen]

34. Yep, my worry also

Hope he has some fantastic security. Regards PB.

[noiretextatique]

37. i don't think those cowards would dare

can you imagine the outrage!!!! i don't think too many would buy another "accident" or some "lone gunmen wacko." i DO think they are brazen, shameless, amoral, and insane enough to try...but i don't think they DARE.

[JNelson6563]

39. agreed

I think even *they* realize that would make all the other "accidents" just all the more obvious.

That said, if any one of our candidates suffers an "accident" I will work tirelessly to avenge it by shining a light so bright on these cockroaches they'll be blinded. Those miserable bastards.

Julie

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. Who was JFK a threat to?

Are you suggesting that the Bush family had JFK killed?

[Pepperbelly]

42. SOMEBODY had him killed ...

As to who, your guess is as good as mine.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. Sorry, but no one had JFK Jr. killed.

He's dead because his stupid spoiled bitch of a wife and her sister INSISTED that he fly them to Martha's Vineyard at night in a rainstorm, despite the fact that he was inexperienced at flying in such weather conditions AND in flying at night, and despite the fact that they could have waited. I heard this from someone who knew both of them...from what I understand she was something of a shrew. You can put away your conspiracy theories.

[Pepperbelly]

46. I was speaking of ...

JFK, not JFK Jr as Bartcop was. My apolgy for not making that clear.

[Spider Jerusalem]

47. Ah. Okay. That makes more sense.

The best theory I've heard on the Kennedy assassination is that it was carried out by a loose-knit cabal of organised crime, rogue CIA elements, and anti-Castro Cuban refugees. The Cubans and CIA wanted revenge on Kennedy because they felt lie he hung them out to dry at the Bay of Pigs, and the CIA especially saw him as a "traitor" and "soft on communism"...and the Mafia wanted him dead because Bobby was on a crusade against organised crime as attorney general. Besides which, the Mob had a vested interest in the Bay of Pigs invasion going well...they wanted their Cuban casinos back (and the gambling profits that went with them, needless to add).

[quaker bill]

43. On general principle

I would advise all Dem candidates to stay out of small private aircraft. They just aren't very safe....

[w4rma]

51. I think many, even most, Republicans see Gen. Clark as the biggest threat

But, I think this article speaks for itself:

Bush team considers Dean formidable Republicans admit they underestimated Dem candidate

By Judy Keen
USA TODAY

WASHINGTON -- Republican Party officials and political advisers to President Bush admit that they underestimated Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean and say they now consider him a formidable potential adversary.

Some Bush allies say he reminds them of another insurgent candidate who once bedeviled Bush: Arizona Sen. John McCain. His wins in Republican primary elections in New Hampshire and Michigan rattled Bush's 2000 campaign.

''There is something going on there, and I tell you, if we don't pay attention . . . we're making a big mistake,'' says Tom Rath, a Republican strategist and Bush adviser in New Hampshire.
…
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030908/5477666s.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=103020