"Libertarian Socialists" are Anarchists, not Libertarians

[idlisambar]

There are a couple of threads that are fuzzy on this point:

"libertarian socialism" and "anarchism" are very nearly synonomous and represent a different political philosophy from what in common parlance is termed as libertarianism.

For further clarification look at the Wiki sites...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

[silverweb]

1. No, that's just ONE type.

"Some of the best known libertarian socialist ideologies are anarchism (particularly anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism), council communism, autonomist Marxism, and social ecology.

And I have a problem with that characterization, anyway. I'm no political scientist, but I see the two sides of this question as the social and the fiscal. If (lower case) libertarianism is basically "total freedom" in whichever realm we're talking about, then I'm a social libertarian but not a fiscal libertarian. The opposite of a libertarian in the fiscal realm is a socialist. So how does a "libertarian socialist" equal an anarchist? That just doesn't make sense.

[idlisambar]

3. True

That's why I said nearly synonomous, but anarchism is the dominant strain of "libertarian socialism".

[silverweb]

4. Sorry, I missed that.

I was reading your subject heading and missed the "nearly synonomous" in the text. Even so, I find the terminology ambiguous and confusing.

I guess I'll stick with calling myself "social libertarian and fiscal socialist" and just scrap "libertarian socialist" completely to avoid confusion. :D

[expatriot]

5. why not "socially liberal" instead of "social libertarian"

language is not absolute, you have to weigh its current connotations and the word libertarian carries the connotations of being an anti-statist in all realms. The word social libertarian would almost suggest that one does not believe the government does not have a role in promoting the social development of its communities, etc. It's like any political labeling system, it is so arbitary and the proponents of which use it as a rhetorical recruitment device. Who is not a libertarian if it means "one who supports liberty" right?

Okay, I MUST go to bed.

[not systems]

12. Everywhere but here Liberal means free market economics...

hence neo-liberalism mean free market policies.

I don't think that liberal is any less confusing than libertarian.

[expatriot]

22. cause the dictionary says so and everyone here on DU and across America

if you asked them, "Who is _more_ liberal, Dennis Kucinich or George W. Bush?"
would answer Dennis Kucinich and free trade would have nothing to do with the answer. And if you asked them to "describe some of the political positions of libertarianism" they would answer something to the effect of "freedom from government control, low taxation, free market control rather than government control, etc."

Quit being a contrarian. Language, in the end, is in the hands of the people.


Here are some dictionary def's for liberal:

1. Not narrow or conservative in thought, expression, or conduct: broad, broad-minded, open-minded, progressive, tolerant. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, wide/narrow.
2. Favoring civil liberties and social progress: < BINGO


Here are the 2 dictionary def's for libertarian

1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. If, as you say, "language is in the hands of the people"...

then WHY are you carping about dictionary definitions?

And is it so hard to grasp that a "libertarian socialist" is going to be pretty different from a "libertarian capitalist"? Or that a "civil libertarian" objects to restrictions placed on individual rights such as freedom of speech, assembly and expression by the government? You seem to be arguing that there's only ONE kind of libertarianism, which is wrong, and that your definition of liberalism is the only one, which is also wrong.

[expatriot]

29. of course there are multiple defs of both words....

i used the dictionary defs as extra evidence...


Let's get back to the meat of it.

Libertarian socialism: a radical political ideology (i.e. anarchism)
Libertarian capitalism: an anti-statist political ideology.

Libertarian: One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state

Liberal: Favoring civil liberties and social progress:

Poltical progressives believe that social progress can be promoted through political recourse... by definition, the state.

If you are a libertarian capitalist, as you say, you advocate the minimizing the role of the state and do not believe that social progress can be promoted through the government roles and actions.

If you are a libertarian socialist, you dismiss the legitimacy of seeking social progress through the existing political system.


The question is, how can either two of those classificaitons be categorized as "politically progressive?"

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. The answer to that is that they can't:

any radical political ideology is by definition NOT progressive; it is revolutionary.

And I classify myself as a libertarian socialist, but I'm also a pragmatist; I recognise the necessity of working within the current political system insofar as possible to achieve social and political goals, because I'm smart enough to realise that socialism to some degree will work, but anarchist communism won't, at least on a national scale (the examples of the Bolsheviks and the Paris Commune are enough to show that). So I'm in theory a libertarian socialist, and in practice a democratic socialist.

[expatriot]

36. fair enough.

good night. it was fun.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[expatriot]

37. you speak for me.

i am a windbag telling people not to be windbags. night.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

26. Yep that is why I'm a liberal libertarian...

but a fact is a fact in the rest of the world
liberal means free markets not socialism lite.

[expatriot]

30. UK's Liberal Party

http://www.liberal.org.uk/

Looking at the platform of the Liberal Party of the UK, it looks pretty liberal (by US definition). Animal rights, state pensions, etc.

Also, Liberal Democrats in UK are very liberal by US definition too. The only thing is, and you are right, they believe in free trade but many US liberals also do.

[not systems]

31. Watch German news some time.

Liberal == free market there.

It means the same here if you add a "classic"

"classic liberalism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Classical liberalism is a political and economic philosophy, originally founded on the Enlightenment tradition, that tries to circumscribe the limits of political power and to define and support individual liberty and private property.

A comprehensive discussion of classical liberalism is included in the article Liberalism. See also Libertarianism.

[expatriot]

35. yes, the 18th c. revolutions were referred to as the "liberal revolutions"

I always have used this wordplay against conservatives.

This does nothing to dismiss my argument. Liberals favor civil liberties and social progress. Conservatives resist this social progress in defense of the old power structures.

Libertarians want to maximize individual rights and civil liberties while minimizing the government's influence and power. But who will protect the civil liberties of the individual if the government is disarmed of influence and power?

[not systems]

40. Most libertarians are minarchists not anarcists...

they believe in enough government to prevent people
from robbing and killing each other.

The main thing is they recognize the inherent violences
in the states monopoly on force and seek to create a world
with a minimum of violence.

Many people claiming "Liberalism" are ready to use
state violence to enforce their social will for the "good"
of society. Hence many liberals support anti-drug laws and
other invasions of personal free will. Many liberals also
support things like mandatory government service either
a draft or some sort of works program.

Both left and right libertarians agree the government should
not run people lives or force them to donate their life's to
it's projects like war.

[silverweb]

13. That would work, too, I guess...

It's just that "socially liberal" has some remnant connotations of the dreaded nanny-state protectiveness, whereas "social libertarian" sounds a little tougher and has more of an independent feeling, i.e., "Just stay the fuck out of my personal life!"

That's not very scientific linguistically or politically, I know, but it's the best way I can explain it. :D

Good night and sweet dreams!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. Yes, when most of us dump on libertarians, we're thinking of

the Libertarian Party, which is made up of affluent or desperately-wannabe affluent greedheads.

[expatriot]

6. very true.

IMHO, people are being duped into grasping at that label to describe their socially liberal tendencies or their civil libertarian views only to muddy the waters even more.

And then there are those who blame the evils of state power on the poltical state itself which is completely misguided in itself since we do not know evil until we dissolve the political state and let the power that be gobble up all the unchecked power and control that would remain in the retreating political state's wake.

[oscar111]

10. LW libertarian is the original, historical, true meaning

of the term Libertarian.

the currently local usage of the term is RW, and is an abberation.

Current US libertarian party efforts are part of the GOP drive to shrink government as a way to do more taxcuts for the rich.

Current US libertarians also siphon away many LW folks who do not see the trick. {footnote: by current US libertarians, i mean the party headed by Brown. Some, very few, in the US are still LW libertarians}.

Similar to how the US has gone along with the confusing local switch in colors. Worldwide, blue is RW 's color. But here, the MSM has effectively switched the RW to being reds. Confusing, which is good for the MSM and bush.
The british and french dont know what we are talking about anymore.
Metric vs. foot-pounds is another example of US isolation.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[expatriot]

9. Wonderfully said. Welcome to DU, we need more level-headed

people like you. I have spent the last hour writing about 2,000 words trying to say what you just said in a couple dozen. Now I go to bed.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Except "liberal" means "laissez-faire capitalist" everywhere but the US.

And "progressive" doesn't seem to apply, either, because it's rather vague in and of itself, divorced from the historical context of US politics whence it takes its name. "Libertarian", on the other hand, is quite descriptive: "One who favours liberty". Civil and social libertarians can differ from self-described "anarcho-capitalist" libertarians quite significantly as regards economic matters.

[expatriot]

15. oh stop. language is relative, denotations and conotations.

the meaning of words is very fluid and changes over time, if there is some guy that starts up the Libertarian Party and it becomes a well-known third party and capital-L Libertarians are known as those who support the politics of the LP, then guess what? Libertarian/libertarians is going to be ACCEPTED as meaning someone who opposes the role and influence of the government in almost all matters.

It's like insisting a Republican is a democrat because he participated in the _democratic_ process of an election. Or insisting that a Democrat is a republican because she believes and supports the idea of a republic. Quit being such a contrarian! NOW (for the tenth time in the last hour I have said this) I go to bed!

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. I'm not being "contrarian"; and the meaning of the words hasn't changed.

To anyone OUTSIDE THE US, "libertarian" doesn't mean "sociopathically selfish Ayn Rand cultist". And there's a pretty large difference between employment of the word as a proper noun and as an adjective. It's not "contrarian" to recognise the difference; it's simple logic and knowing how to make distinctions.

[expatriot]

25. how about the dictionary. will that convince you?

libertarian:

1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

liberal:
1. Not narrow or conservative in thought, expression, or conduct: broad, broad-minded, open-minded, progressive, tolerant. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, wide/narrow.
2. Favoring civil liberties and social progress: liberalistic, progressive. See politics.
3. Characterized by bounteous giving: free, freehanded, generous, handsome, lavish, munificent, openhanded, unsparing, unstinting. See give/take/reciprocity.


Secondly, free trade, although one of the libertarians issues... is not contradictory to being a liberal. There are many liberals in this country who are pro-free trade.

[Spider Jerusalem]

28. I think the amount of time I spent studying political science...

(half of my double major; the other was history) and philosophy in college allows me to speak on the subject without recourse to a dictionary, thanks. I have a fairly well-informed idea of what I'm talking about.

[expatriot]

32. you don't need a degree or a dictionary to allow you to speak on the

subject.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. You need to have some knowledge to be able to say anything meaningful;

otherwise you're just making noise. And being aware of things like historical and social context is certainly at least helpful in any discussion of political philosophy; these ideas come from somewhere, you know. They didn't just spring into existence fully-formed like Athena emerging from the brow of Zeus.

For instance, the differing definitions of 'liberal' stem from a common source; the political and philosophical ideas of thinkers like Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill, and the progression of politics in 19th century Britain...the Liberals evolved from the Whigs, who favoured limiting royal power and expanding the role of Parliament (thus the'progressive' element). Their position on free trade came from the fact that trade HAD been a closed monopoly, limited to companies with royal charters (such as the East India Company). Both are ideas rooted in the same tradition; yet those traditions have to some extent diverged, to the point where an American 'liberal' may be a protectionist on trade issues. (It's also this form of liberalism that libertarianism takes its name from; the Libertarians focus on the economic aspects).

[bicentennial_baby]

41. Can I quote you on that? :)

"You need to have some knowledge to be able to say anything meaningful; otherwise you're just making noise"



:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. Go right ahead. :-)

[expatriot]

8. this simple 2-D poltical spectrum should help....

like all political labeling systems, it is inadequate but it shold help people out.


In short, if you are socially liberal and believe in public education and that federal judges should have the power to keep oil companies from drilling offshore in environmentally sensitive areas and close to major population centers, you are definitely not a libertarian.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. You mean "definitely not a Libertarian".

With the capital "L". Which is different from a small-l "libertarian". Part of the problem is that the term has been hijacked by a gang of brain-damaged Ayn Rand worshippers. Doesn't mean it's a bad term, any more than "socialist" is a bad term because of its association with communism.

[expatriot]

16. Do you correct people on DU who bash republicans

when technically they mean Republicans? Geesh. :) Good night!

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. If it's not clear what they're talking about...

then I may point out that they're being vague; can't talk about anything until you've clearly defined the terms, after all.

[oscar111]

18. so neoliberals are not liberal in any way?

i am trying to get the definition of them.

They are neocons, right?

did Krystol or Krystoff start neoliberals? seem to recall that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. Neoliberal doesn't mean "neoconservative"...

neoliberals are pro-free trade. Bill Clinton, for instance, is a neoliberal.

[not systems]

23. No they started out as statist leftists...

the became statist right wingers.

That is the big difference between neo-cons and
traditional cons.

Traditional cons support decentralized power aka states rights
and small government and fiscal conservatism aka not spending
more than you take in also traditional cons were against a
interventionist foreign policy and "nation building".

Neo-cons favor large budget deficits and greatly expanded
powers for the central government and support intervention
and "nation building".

[not systems]

17. Don't you mean your not "Libertarian" with a big L.

Many big L and small l libertarians don't believe in
corporate person-hood so the drillers would have unlimited
personal liability for any damages to the environment.

Like the building of nuke plants that can't get private insurance
actions with great risk to people and the world would be curtailed
by people measuring the true costs and risks.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

27. The Greens seem to think of themselves as left-leaning libertarians

with their motto of "Think Globally, Act Locally".