"I'm sorry I ever voted for bush"..oh yeah, well fuck you.

[mopaul]

my own brother, a year younger and born again, voted for bush TWICE. now he's voicing regrets that bush's war was a mistake. i told him IT WAS NOT A MISTAKE, not for one second. i warned him repeatedly that if bush was in the white house, we'd soon have world war three, and i was right.

but ultimatley, i will not accept his lame excuse or apology or whatever the fuck his epiphany is, he knew bush was an asshole when he campaigned, and he's an asshole now.

fuck you bro, i don't even want to hear it.

[getmeouttahere]

1. I feel for you, mopaul.....

I had to spend time with conservative relatives this weekend, and I did everything I could to avoid talking politics, but even just talking about gas prices started to lead down that road, so I nipped it at the bud, so to speak. Strange days indeed.

[Tesha]

4. Maybe all of you who are afraid to talk politics...

Maybe all of you who are afraid to talk politics should instead be
practicing bringing politics up at every possible moment.

How will we ever wn if you're all too afraid to edumacate some of
these folks?

(And do they ever worry about bringing up politics that might offend
*YOU*???)

Tesha

[mopaul]

6. I tell em', if you wanna talk politics with me, buckle up

[Snotcicles]

43. I'm with you mopaul,

I knew then, and I know now whats going on. They can't hide behind some excuse now. They were warned. Now they all have blood on there hands. And I ask them what are they doing to correct there so called mistake? are they getting as loud to get *ush out? as they were to get *ush in?

[annabanana]

59. Hooo Whee! I wouldn't want to be on the opposing

side of ANY arguement with you mopaul...

(but I might like to watch)

:popcorn:

[AuntiBush]

108. I do Now & No Longer Care What Other's Think!

Remembered this old saying and use it now: "I'm not a slaved to other's opinions" and smile, then walk away. Have gotten some very positive responses, actually from local Republicans whom are fed-up more then we.

TV MSN want us to believe everyone is divided. No way. Look at all the polls.

[Peace Patriot]

117. I'm sorry, mopaul, but I don't agree with your sentiment that your

brother, who didn't listen to you about Bush and now has regrets, should now be shunned. And I don't agree with you, getmeoutahere, either, that politics should be avoided. One of the reasons I oppose capital punishment is that I believe that people can change, and that even bad crimes can be redeemed and recompensed, and forgiven. But none of this can take place if they are dead. Capital punishment is a dark and evil statement that the human spirit is stagnant, and that human progress is not possible.

To consign all Bush '04 voters to exile or shunning (to psychic capital punishment) is also a dark act that speaks of despair and loss of faith in democracy, the most progressive form of government. The premise of democracy is that a well-informed people will make the best decisions; that there is wisdom in majority rule, provided that minority rights are protected. A well-informed people. Think--THINK--what it takes to be well-informed, not just information, but also open-mindedness, self-confidence, and SAFETY, that is, the emotional and psychological conviction that, a) the information that you are getting is true, on the whole (or can be sorted out), and b) that you have the ability to figure out the truth, determined what's best and act upon it. And then think how these conditions for democracy have been undermined, and nearly destroyed, by Corporate Rule.

It's amazing that ANYONE can see reality these days (any American, that is). That so many people CAN is a wonderful, wonderful thing. And those who can't--or who are struggling--need to be helped and encouraged, not disdained.

mopaul, you are angry that your little brother didn't listen to you? Well, he won't be the first little brother to position himself on the opposite side from his big brother. Maybe you didn't argue with him in the right way. Maybe you bullied him too much. You obviously didn't find a way to convince him, and maybe it wasn't possible, given his little brother status, and the realities of sibling rivalry. But why dismiss him now that he has regrets about Bush? Why let your anger--and whatever sibling rivalry history you may have together--dictate how your respond NOW?

It's as if the ground of the argument is "I'm right, you're wrong." Listen to the four year old in yourself, and the three year old in him, arguing ("Is." "Is not." "Is." "Is not." "IS!" "IS NOT!"). You may tell yourself that war is at stake and the future of our country and the world. But what may be at stake for HIM is growing up, proving he's your equal, and standing up to you (or, even more basic, who gets the most parental love).

Put it all aside, and think what Ghandi would do. Put aside that you were right. Put anger aside. Give him leeway to grow and change. I'm not saying be namby-pamby or Pollyanna-ish. ("Be nice now, boys! Play nice!). Gandhi wasn't namby-pamby. But he did find a way to confront the most vicious, aggressive wrongness in such a way that the wrong ones could change; leaving room for change, leaving room for saving face, HONORING change.

Relatives are the most difficult problem of all, as to politics. Sometimes it's wise not to stir things up in a family situation--partly because everyone needs a refuge, no matter how wrong-headed they are. On the other hand, if it's a healthy argument, and everyone feels safe, what better place to work it out, to educate, to help form opinions. Just beware of subterranean emotions.

Aside from that--from family situations where arguments can get out of hand, and become issues of love and acceptance (or lack of), and other bad situations for political argument (say, worker and boss)--I think we should all try to be open to discussion and good argument. This is a time of big transition and change. Many people are shattered at what's happened to our country, and may be trying to understand it, and re-form their opinions. What an opportunity!

What I was thinking about mopaul and his brother is that mopaul had been disenfranchised. HIS vote was discounted; and his brother's vote carried more weight. That's how I read the numbers. Kerry voters were cheated. And that's one way to put it to people who are in transition on Bush. It wasn't a fair vote. Bush partisans had control of the vote tabulation with the SECRET, PROPRIETARY software they used in the new electronic voting machines. The vote was not transparent and verifiable. And if it had been, we wouldn't be in this colossal mess. There is wisdom in democracy, and in majority rule. If mopaul's vote had been equal to his brother's, that wisdom--that great heritage of democracy--would have prevailed. But it wasn't fair. It wasn't transparent. Democracy didn't have a chance to work.

THAT is the issue--even more than what Bush has done. And when you look at the overwhelming stats on what the majority wants--for instance, that the Democrats blew the Republicans away in new voter registration in 2004, nearly 60/40 (people were FLOCKING to the Democratic Party), or that 58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war BEFORE the invasion, Feb. '03 (across the board in all polls), or that 63% of the American people oppose torture UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, or that the majority of Americans disagree with every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic, way up in the 60% to 70% range--you begin to see how unfair and how wrong things have been, and that it's becoming crystal clear that Bush won by cheating.

That is a shattering realization for some people. THEIR ideals about America--no matter how illusory they were--have been smashed. Some people could get very defensive as that realization dawns. Mopaul's brother at least was willing to admit that something's wrong. That's an opening; not a shutting. That's hopeful.

There are even a whole lot of grass roots Democrats and Kerry voters who don't want to acknowledge that the election system is broken. With Democratic leaders virtually silent on the matter (mostly, I think, because of corruption in the billion dollar electronic voting boondoggle), and with the corporate news monopolies complicit on the stolen election (they falsified the evidence of the exit polls, that Kerry won, and "adjusted" the numbers to fit a Bush win, on everybody's TV screens on election night), these grass roots Democrats and Kerry voters also need to be forgiven for not knowing what the hell has happened to our country. We are virtually without leadership in understanding this.

Our country is hurting badly. And it is virtually without good leadership in any official position. This is a time to pull together and look for our common ground--the common ground that the Bush Cartel has so determinedly tried to destroy; the common ground that the corporate news monopolies have tried to claim as THEIRS; the common ground on which we ordinary Americans can talk to each other, and admit mistakes, and find the way to restore our democracy.

It is not a time for shunning. It is a time for opening up. Think of Cindy Sheehan hugging the military parent who came to oppose her, and the two of them ending up crying in each other's arms. Think of that--not of how right we may have been, or how wrong others were.

[Dorian Gray]

120. What a thoughtful and beautiful post,

Peace Patriot.

[DIKB]

2. Family strife is never good.

But I can't really blame you. People who are JUST now waking up. . . Where the everloving FUCK were their minds when it mattered ? The signs were clear as day, I MIGHT be able to forgive someone voting for him the 1st time, but not for supporting him twice. There was no justification, and quite frankly, they deserve the hell this country will become as a result, the sad fact is the rest of us have to pay too. For that they deserve our anger.

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. I'll cut them some slack for the first vote and even that's hard to do

But voting for the little worm the second time around? Only reasons for that vote, GREED and self righteousness.

[jbnow]

88. My thought too

The first time you just assume they don't research and didn't learn how much he said was clear BS or they just vote for their party.

My biggest concerns the first time was Supreme Court and the environment. He disgusted me but I had NO idea how really horrid he would be, though the court decision horrified me.

But this time whatever the party affiliation or whatever excuse (I know a Dem I use to respect who voted Bush so he didn't need to buy guns to protect his family???) there is no good excuse. Well if you are for torture, screwing America and the world, being lied to, having the economy ruined and so forth, bush was the man.

There is a wall I can't and don't really want to break through between my self and any family or acquaintances that voted for bush the 2nd time.

On the other hand I have hugged more then one Republican who had tears in there eyes over what bush had done to their party and how they'd had to vote for a Democrat as president for the first time in their life.

Very odd. It isn't politics, it is so much deeper.

[FreedomAngel82]

98. Who knows

But I don't feel bad for them anymore. Tons of people tried to warn them and John Kerry. But they just flamed him and called him horrible name's and dishonored him as a vet and a being. So now I don't feel sorry for them one bit.

[SemperEadem]

40. they were stuck on gays being allowed to marry

they didn't hear anything else.

[shaniqua6392]

3. People are scraping those Bush bumper stickers

Like crazy now out of embarrassment. A lot of good their regret does us now. I am sure their regret is a comfort to all of the dead soldiers and the ones with no arms or legs. What do they want? Forgiveness. Not.

[Tesha]

5. Some are, some aren't. Lots of big-ass SUVs and trucks still have "W"! NT

[Javaman]

18. Those are the have mores... the last hold outs.

[leftchick]

22. his base includes the have mores and the

have no brains. I see the have no brains'cars with stickers still.

[sepia_steel]

97. I live around the 'have mores'

Not sure if those stickers will EVER come off. Fucking country destroyers.

[Clark2008]

62. That's about the ONLY place I still see W stickers around here.

They're always on some big-ass SUV, on the bottom of the back window, so it's right in your face when you're behind them. It's like they all took a course in sticker placement for maximum effect or something.

[President Kerry]

84. i'm satisfied those SUV-riding W lovers are paying thru their nose at the

pump.. Time to shell out another $70 to fill your Navigator.

[stubtoe]

118. I always wish I had a "what the hell were you thinking" sticker

to slap over those W04 stickers... anybody make 'em?

[fujiyama]

8. Hmmm you know I think you may be right

I thought I saw a resurgence immediately after the election, but in recent weeks I have not seen many "W" stickers.

[aden_nak]

9. I saw who'd scraped a sticker the other day.

It was kinda obvious, too. He got most of it off, but you could still see the "BU", and as common as the stickers are, you knew what it said. I decided to be a jerk and point it out. He basically replied that he realized Bush was full of shit, and that he was embarrassed to be duped for so long. I told him he ought to cover what's left of the sticker up with a nice once of these:

[trogdor]

66. They should be required to sport that BC04 sticker until '09.

As a badge of dishonor. Kind of like "accepting personal responsibility."

[don954]

7. i know what you mean

every time I hear that I want to smack someone upside the head with a 2x4.... luckily for them, im a civilized person.

[Tesha]

10. They tell us the same thing about the war.

They tell us the same thing about the war.

"Who knew it would go so badly?"

(Well, all those millions that Bush derided as "focus groups", for starts.)

"Who knew gas would be so expensive?

(All those people who suggested electing two oil men probably wasn't
a good idea.)

"Who knew the Sunnis, the Shiites, and the Kurds wouldn't be able
to work together after we free them from Saddam?"

(See Figure 1)

"Who knew that it would be so hard to keep the peace afterwards?"

"Who knew that women's rights would be treated so badly?"

"Who knew the country would swing so rapidly towards Islamic Fundamentalism?"

Yeah, who knew?

Tesha

[LibDemAlways]

23. I remember having a conversation with

a country-club type repuke just before the invasion. (He, of course, is old enough to have served in Vietnam, but apparently found plenty of other things to do.) Anyhow, he told me he had done lots of reading and research and was conviced Saddam was a threat who needed to be removed and going to war was "the right thing." I laughed in his face, told him Saddam was no threat, there were no WMDs, removing Saddam would cause chaos, the Iraqi people would not welcome us - in fight they would fight like hell to get rid of us, and that it would be a colossal mistake and failure. He laughed at me when I told him Bush was a greater threat to world peace than Saddam.

Damn, in this case, it hurts to have been right.

[Tesha]

29. Like you, I would have been glad to have been proven wrong.

I wasn't.

Tesha

[FreedomAngel82]

101. Yep

I still think that Kerry, Edwards and all the other canidates from 2004 (yes including Liberman oy) should get up and do a press conference and say "we told you so."

[Carolab]

111. I believe one of them, Chairman Dean, is doing so now.

If you are following his words. He said ALL of this and people laughed. Now he's on TV with ole' Bob on FTN Sunday and Bob is asking HIM how we should get out of Iraq.

Oh, the irony.

[sepia_steel]

99. I must borrow your statement

i'll include "Tesha" at the bottom. Succint statements likes these are what hit people the hardest. If you PM me and tell me not to I'll take it down. We gotta get the word out.

[Jensen]

11. * has proven to be more of a divider than we ever imagined....

He has even divided families, let alone just the country!
That's "family values" for you. I had the same situation, said over and over again this man was "NO Christian" I believe we have been proven right by this Tush of a pResident actions!

When is all said and done, he is still your Brother... I wish I still had mine!

[Qanisqineq]

12. my sister is a born again

but she still thinks ol' George was sent by god to save us all from the evils of liberals, gays, and non-christians. I wish she'd at least see some of the light like your brother.

[Tigress DEM]

110. Is she a "700 Club" Fan?

I remember my mother spouting about gays even back in the 80's and I thought she was losing it back then, but didn't connect the dots.

Well, today is her perfect opportunity. As a dedicated Christian, she should write to the pResident and ask him to go speak out against that redneck trucker who mowed over both crosses and flags that were displayed by Cindy Sheehan for her protest at Crawford Ranch. Even if the pResident doesn't want to bring the troops home, he needs to tell his supporters that violence and disrespect are not the way to approach this situation.

If Bush is a man of God, he should speak the truth. Ask your sister what she would have said to someone who desecrated crosses and flags like that in front of her. If she would have had enough courage to speak up, then shouldn't this "spiritual man who leads our country" (according her opinion) do the same? His silence is like letting kids get away with vandalism of a church.

[never_get_over_it]

13. Let me guess

is he sorry he ever voted for the freak in chief because of gas prices. That seems to be what I'm getting alot of them are upset about THEIR gas prices

Selfish bastards

I was at a party yesterday afternoon - and someone said why do you hate * so much

I said oh I don't know

7 trillion dollar deficit
1,850 dead soldiers
Thousands wounded
100K + innocent Iraqis dead
and last but not least

$2.50/gas price while oil companies have record profits

Now this list is what I thougt the questioner might relate to - the real reason I hate *

HE IS A LYING MURDERING SELFISH ELECTION STEALKING FREAK WHO HAS/IS DESTROYING MY COUNTRY

[mopaul]

16. gas prices brought up the whole conversation, whining & weeping

about gas prices, then it lead directly to discussing the war(s)

[never_get_over_it]

17. You know I have a co-worker

who is a repunk and I have always liked him - he is really one of the only ones left that I even moderately interacted with - he had shown some disapproval for * during the first term. When election time came I BEGGED HIM NOT TO VOTE FOR HIM - although he is in Texas and it wouldn't have made a difference - well when election day came he admitted that he voted for * and I SCREAMED at him and said how could you do that - his response was I'm voting for the next four years not the last - which is one of the dumbest ass answers I have ever heard - I have talked to him very few times since the election and it is sad because I stay away from him because of politics - but you now today I might just give him a call and see what his gas prices are - it is really awful because except for politics I really like this guy - but I can't get past how stupid he was to vote for the freak.

[mopaul]

19. I'm voting for the next four years not the last ---GOD what an idiot

[Gay Green]

94. Hey I voted for the next four years not the last BY VOTING KERRY

Doesn't matter. I'm from a Red State and my parish (county) uses "Sequoia" (actually a subsidiary) Black Box Voting Machines.

[pansypoo53219]

24. a LOT

of people who voted for the shithead seemed to thing he would be BETTER next time.
FOOLS.
even some talking 'head' in washington monthly.

[leeroysphitz]

80. Insanity.

Repeating the same behavior and expecting different results.

[Tesha]

31. Jes' ask him hows "those next four years" are going. (NT)

[SemperEadem]

41. They're seeing that they're not invited to the party

* and his ilk CAN afford $2.70/ga gas prices. They CAN afford to heat their homes this winter. In fact, they CAN afford to remodel and add on, if not outright buy a new home.

Those repunks (love it!) who are whining THOUGHT they were going to the party with * and his ilk--they struck a blow for godliness in this country and they get to party!!!!! Like Ron Reagan, Jr. said "they're going to be the ones picking the shrimp shells out of the carpet at the end of the party".

On your knees!!!!

[tamtam]

76. The gas price 180 kills me

Yea I've seen quite a few of them do a 180 when the gas prices reached almost 3 bucks here in Cali. This is not directed to your brother but I say FU to all those who change their minds about GW because of high gas prices. If these idiots voted for the chimp twice they really get what they deserve in terms of high gas prices.

The gas price 180 really pisses me off because of the selfishness of it. These people could give a rat ass about the killing and torture going on in Iraq but when they have to pay extra at the tank watch out all hell will break loose. When someone at work tells me they regret voting for Bush I tell them eat it up. Eat up the gas prices, eat up the killing and the blood because that is all on you. Maybe now that they have time to think about how they are going to fill up their tanks they will think about the killing being done in their names.

[For PaisAn]

91. good list

and then you could end it by asking
"How could you not hate bush??"
Turn it around and let them have to justify their support for bush. It's getting harder and harder for even them to believe their own bullshit.

[Mikimouse]

14. My father voted for * both times, and whines now...

that there is a chance that his federal pension will be cut back. Snarf! He told me 5 years ago that * would fuck up Social Security and Medicare, but that was OK by him, as long as he could keep his guns. I asked him then if he really thought that a democratic administration would come around and confiscate his guns, and he said that hey were all anti-gun. I reminded him that I was a former member of the NRA (pre-Wayne LaPierre, who incidentally is an ass of the highest level), and that I was a democrat. Now that his republican friends are singing the praises of GWB, he is finally realizing how idiotic his reasoning was. Too little, too late.

[Tigress DEM]

102. What is wrong with DEMS who can't see opportunity when...

it walks right up to them?

Republican's who will see this evil administration for what it is are a great asset! They can take back their own party and kick ALL the lurking neo-cons out. They may wake up slowly because the propoganda has been laid on so thick.

Why settle for cleaning up only the DEMS? This administration has crossed over so many boundries they may make it possible for the Voting Public to take back our power exponentially. Look what happened in Ohio when that Republican woman dissed the Iraq Vetran, Paul Hackett. Real Republicans DO support the troops and don't run over crosses. (Another thread - redneck trucker ran over Cindy Sheehan's crosses, but Crawford police actually caught him pretty quickly!)

I say the Republicans who actually believe in real family values and compassionate conservatism (that isn't a euphemism for "kill them") have even more reason to demand justice from their leaders who have lied to them.

[NewJeffCT]

116. I know many people who vote Republican just for guns

While I have not played D&D (Dungeons & Dragons) regularly since my daughter was born 2 1/2 years ago, we have one guy in our gaming group that should be falling all over himself to vote Democratic - he is stuck in a lousy job and has few skills (job training?), is way overweight & has health problems, and because of his lousy job, has shitty health insurance (universal health care). He's pro-choice, I'm pretty sure. However, he is a big gun owner and is afraid that Democrats will take his guns. He votes solely on that issue and won't listen to anything else.

I know a few other people like this as well.

By the way, the two people in the group that actually have social lives outside of the D&D group (married with children) and have the best jobs are liberals. The guy above, and a few others, that don't really have social lives (the stereotypical D&D player) or decent jobs are Republicans.

[Ganja Ninja]

15. I hope all the Bush voters that are having regrets will ...

in the future stay home on election day. They've proven that they don't have enough good judgment to make decisions on who will make good leaders for this country. They've shown they are easily confused and gullible. In the future they should stay home on election day. They should tear up their voter ID cards and never go near a voting booth again. Please don't tell me they need to vote Democrat because they will only find some other lame excuse to vote against them. They'll never get it right and they will only screw things up every time they show up to vote.

[tblue37]

77. I firmly believe that many who vote Republican do so

only because they have been indoctrinated into having a violent reaction against the very idea of voting for a Democratic candidate.

All these years of RW hate radio and TV have made the words "liberal" and "Democrat" as toxic to many people as the word "communist" used to be (and for some still is).

I have a brother who, while he admits that Bush is a disaster, nevertheless always follows that assessment with, "But he's still a helluva lot better than Gore would have been!"

I push him on it--How is he better? What would Gore have done that is worse than what Bush has done? What were Gore's positions on X, Y, and Z? Do you even know? But of course he has no idea what Gore stood for. He just "knows" he would have been even worse than Bush.

This is the same guy who says he hates the English. When I ask him why, he has no good reason. Then I ask him if he has ever been to England or ever met any English men or women, and he admits he hasn't--but he still "knows" they are worthless and he has absolutely no use for them. This is just like those idiots who hate the French without ever having been to France or ever having met a Frenchman.

What's funny is that I have been to England, and as someone with three degrees in English who teaches college-level English, I actually know a fair amount about England and the English--in addition to having many English friends.

And yet my brother pontificates at me and announces all these BS criticisms of the English, just as he criticizes Gore, without knowing anything about him.

He would never vote for a Democrat, no matter what, because he knows that no matter how bad a Republican politician might be, his Democratic opponent would be "a helluva lot worse."

[Lady Effingbroke]

85. You have described to a "T" my parents.

Their whole line of political reasoning can be summed up as "republicans=good, democrats=bad".

You should have seen the reaction of my mother when she saw the Kerry sticker on my car: "Oh my god, get that f***ing thing off of your car!"

NO political acumen WHAT-SO-EVER, COMPLETELY brainwashed and gulled by whoreporate media, and NO interest in learning about what is really going on in this country.

They are recently retired (within the past year), and I regret to inform them that their "golden year(s)" are going to be very few in number before TSHTF, if indeed it hasn't already.

Both are repeat * voters.

They deserve everything they get.

[Swamp Rat]

20. There's always next Mardi Gras.

;) :D

[BeTheChange]

21. Ill be the voice of dissent..

Family is family.. and sometimes they take awhile to come around.. sometimes they dont see everything eye to eye. But Id be grateful that finally mine did and welcome him on over to the light.

My FIL came around about a year ago and Im very glad to have him on our side..

[tomg]

37. I'm with you. While I don't necessarily agree that

family is family, I do agree that we should welcome everyone who comes around, no matter when. David Crosby, when he and Graham Nash were interviewed on Hardball, said, in reference to The Rolling Stones "My Sweet Neo-Con," that the Stones were "a little late to the party" but that was okay with him. A lot of people who voted for Major Hackett voted for Bush 10 months earlier.

[Vickers]

25. Well, at least the Iraqi War is paying for itself.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[SunDrop23]

26. I'd give him some leeway, it could be worse....

At least he has come to his senses. That's a positive change.

Most of the people in my family are still STAUNCH Bush supporters and often discuss how "bad off" the country will be when he leaves office.

[Tesha]

32. Well, they're right: the country will really suck when he leaves.

> and often discuss how "bad off" the country will be when he leaves office.

Well, they're right: the country will really suck when he leaves.
But of course it will mostly be sucking because of Bush's actions
while he was in orifice.

Tesha

[European Socialist]

28. Voting Bush 2000-honest mistake. Voting Bush 2004-unforgivable.

[Tesha]

34. You know, I won't even go *THAT* far.

The truth about Bush was out there even in 2000, for anyone that
spent more than 30 seconds looking for it.

Tesha

[gratuitous]

30. Oh NOW you're sorry?

I think your brother deserves a well-placed "Fuck you," mopaul. And about two months of stewing in his juices. Stay in touch with him, and every bad development until, say, October should be rubbed in his face until he's sick and tired of it. THEN start working on him for 2006. Don't let him conveniently "forget" the atrocities of his Republican pals, don't let him off the hook for his 2004 vote. Keep him on message and on task. We'll need his vote in 2006 and beyond, but we're only going to get that if the lesson of 2004 is driven home.

I have confidence that you can do it.

[Wabbajack]

74. Flys, Honey, Vinegar

[mopaul]

82. i'm not TRYING to attract flies

the shit has done stunk up the place and i raised hell when i saw the maggots, now we got flies everywhere and i just swat em'

[MojoXN]

33. INDEED!!!

If you make a deal with the Devil, you're going to get burned.

MojoXN

[xchrom]

35. i have no sympathy and i never believe them anyway.

yeah -- now they hurt 'cause of gas or have guilty conscience for our dead troops{yeah right} or whatever the reason.

but generally i find people are conservative because deep down -- they're just evil bastards.

i have plenty of these hateful folk in my family -- we avoid each other like the plague.

[Tigress DEM]

109. Too bad. Some people really are stuck in their ideologies...

But not every conservative is deep down evil or hateful and a lot of Republican's are really ashamed of the Bush administration's behavior once they know the extent of it.

I have friends who would probably still prefer to vote Republican, but would also vote to impeach these scoundrels in a heartbeat.

I have family members who are still "drinking the koolaid" but I keep doling out the facts in small to medium doses so we don't get a huge row going, but over time, my challenge is for them to examine the "facts".

In fact, my mother-in-law (moderate DEM - who had knee surgery recently) and father-in-law (solid DEM) are asking us to "help" them watch three of the grandkids so my brother-in-law (Republican leaning Libertarian) can go to some conference with a radical priest.

I'm not sure what to do... I just got a call from my son that his wife has gone into labor and I told him I couldn't make the trip until this weekend to see the baby - he lives out of state (5 hour drive). I could opt out.. perfect excuse. Or I could find a way to take one of the 3 with me and let my husband help with the other 2.

However, if I help I'd like to make it an opportunity to talk about his departure from reality. Of course, I wouldn't put it that way directly, just by showing him facts that disprove a lot of the spew he's been throwing out lately.

[Brewman_Jax]

36. Agreed

these are the same brain-dead idiots who vote against their own selfish best interests so they can vote against gay marriage, affirmative action, reproductive rights, whatever the neo-con cause of the day is.

Like my freeper dad, now they cry about high gas prices and high health care costs, but that's the fault of those damned environmentalists and he gets to keep his guns. Well, dad, I don't think that the pharmacy will take bullets as payment for your prescriptions.

Don't cry to me, that's what you voted for. :eyes:

[UTUSN]

38. Same Goes for the NADIR-ites n/t

[Libby2]

39. I remember some of your

discussions about your brother.

I hope your relationship can be patched up.
I truly do.

[sysoprock]

42. Way to corner that swing vote!

/sarcasm

[RandomKoolzip]

50. The "swing vote" is illusory.

It's the 76 million eligible voters who can't be bothered to give a shit ("Ah, they're all the same!") we should be courting.

[Jade Fox]

44. It's pretty hard to have any sympathy.....

I mean, how stupid can you get? Not to mention foolish and irresponsible.
And how much do we owe to people who are that stupid, foolish and
irresponsible? They are not children. They need to take responsibility
for their actions.

[blue sky at night]

45. I agree.........

I am hot on the necks of people like this.

[dogday]

46. We need people like your brother Mopaul

people who are willing to come on over to this side because they are freaking ashamed of voting for the shrub. I will take each and every one to vote Democrat any day of the week and so should you....

Do it for the group....

[tabasco]

67. Hell yeah - it's reason to celebrate.

Buy your bro a beer and tell him "I knew you could do it!"

His conversion might be too late to make a difference in the grand scheme of things, but get your bro onboard now and make sure he stays onboard, just in case.

It's become a rare event when one of the herd stops mooing and starts thinking for a change.

[teknomanzer]

92. Yes celebrate...

Your brother is like the prodigal son... he was lost and now he's found. Rather fitting for a born again doncha think?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

47. So what's he gonna do in 06 and 08? Steady leadership in uncertain times?

[Cleita]

48. Truer words were never spoken. I have no sympathy for

anyone who says they regret voting for Bush after putting us through almost five years of Hell. If they had informed themselves before the election on Bush, instead of listening to all the disinformation con artists, they would never have voted for him in 2000.

These people have nothing more than my scorn.

[Dinger]

49. I Don't Know What You'll Think Of This, But I Talked To A . ..

Korean War vet yesterday, at a local centennial celebration, in a small rural town (mine). I heard him talking to an elderly couple, and he said this war is wrong, and he supports the troops, but NOT bu$h. The elderly couple agreed with him. They mentioned that they had 11 children, and were now on their own, and that they agreed with him. I was sort of eavesdropping, and when the couple left, I talked to the man. I said I didn't mean to intrude, but I told him I agreed with what he said. He said he voted for bu$h in 2000, but not in 2004. He said this W-ar is another Vietnam. He also mentioned that he was at an old military machinery type show the other day, and there was a soldier who had been to Iraq twice and his job was training Iraqi troops. He said that simply isn't working. They are scared shitless. The death and destruction is overwhelming and this just isn't working. Apparently, this soldier was telling the truth, in as diplomatic and "safe" way as possible.

[meganmonkey]

51. I hope all the people who say 'fuck you' to people

who recognize the error of their ways (albeit far too late) can get over their smug and self-righteous attitudes so that maybe we can communicate with these people and get them fully on our side in time for the 2006 and 2008 elections.

Unless being right and rubbing it in people's faces is more important than actually trying to change things and make them better.

:shrug:

[mopaul]

52. would it help to say i'm ashamed of myself?

[Telly Savalas]

53. So you're saying "Fuck You!" wouldn't make a very good campaign slogan?

[Imagevision]

54. Fuck you slogan? to the repukes? not bad...I like that, it fits!

[Telly Savalas]

63. Sorry to be unclear. I'm in agreement with Meganmonkey.

I think there's a huge difference between "this is what we were talking about several years ago" and "I told you so, asshole". The first can win votes whereas the second alienates people. Like meganmonkey, I'm more concerned with winning elections than feeling self-righteousness.

[Imagevision]

55. As long as their are the Limbaugh-Hannity's out there, there is no

hope for bringing any people together. repugs merely quote/mirror what they here on these sicko-pathetic radio/TV shows. Like Telly says-> "fuckem"

[meganmonkey]

60. The OP was referring to someone who is sorry now for

having voted for Bush.

I spend a lot of time with my boyfriend's RW semi-fundie Limbaugh-listenin' family and they mostly voted for bush last year, or didn't vote at all, and I can almost guarantee that some of them will be voting democratic a lot in the near future.

You know why? Because I didn't say "Fuck you" to them.

[mopaul]

64. good luck with that

[meganmonkey]

69. Somehow I think you are being sarcastic

but thanks, anyway.

Yesterday we had dinner with my boyfriend's cousin, her husband and their 2 and a half year old son.

I started teaching the kid how to flash a peace sign and say 'Peace, man'. The mom walked out and saw us and she helped him put his fingers in the right position. Then the dad came out, saw what we were doing, rolled his eyes and laughed.

So I am making progress.

The mom, a nonvoter, is quietly turning into a liberal. I am hoping she will turn into a voting liberal by 2006. The dad, well, we'll see. He likes NASCAR a lot more than politics.

[Gay Green]

100. Oh, I think the dad will be very involved in politics since he

might not be able to afford to go to a NASCAR rally and especially so if NASCAR gets cancelled due to ever increasing gas prices.

[Cleita]

57. I, for one keep my scorn to myself, however, if they

expect big hugs from me and the killing of a fatted calf and a feast, fuggitaboutit.

[fujiyama]

119. Gotta agree atleast to some extent

While it may be tempting to say "fuck you", it really doesn't help win anyone over. Though I certainly might sneak in a "I told ya so" or a "Finally now you get it!".

Better late than never I figure. I'm glad that some people are waking up finally. While I certainly do believe anyone that voted for Bush the second time is a Goddamn fool, I'd like to atleast have those same people send a clear message to the pukes in '06 and '08.

[guruoo]

56. Never, ever turn away a potential ally

When Bush supporters turn, we should
welcome them with open arms.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

58. It is idiot's regret........

.....I bet if he could do it again to day, he'd STILL vote for Dumbya. Some people just buy into everything served up to them by the administration and the MSM. The Bushies run a good campaign of beating the people over the head when they need their votes, then show utter contempt and disregard when the election is over. If they had to go into campaign mode again, they'd just sucker them all in again.....

[mopaul]

61. it was awfully easy to corral them into pens

and you're probably right

[GoBlue]

65. so you let bush win your family war?

That's not being rational.

[Zorra]

68. We have to understand that there are a lot of really naive people in

this country. (Well, "naive" may be my nice way of saying "really fucking stupid")

The republicans know how to deal with the "naive". Republicans take the child molester approach.

They offer them a little bit of candy to go with them, and then take them to a dark hole and rape and sodomize them repeatedly.

[Norquist Nemesis]

70. "Bush's war was a mistake"...what about the rest?

If he's also talking about gas prices, economy, jobs, education, environment, healthcare costs, etc.... Instead of I told you so, can you say to him "Will you help me then? Let's get him out!" and make him an ally?

I feel for you Mo. Rifts in my family too. My parents have always been GOP Loyalists (Mom not so much, but follows Dad as a good wife should). I've always been the blacksheep rebel of the family that does everything correct (didn't have to get married, haven't been divorced, first to graduate high school without flunking and having to repeat, first to graduate college, etc.), but I still have "head bone problems" because I disagree on so many levels with them politically.

My Dad did several in-your-face! take this! emails during the run-up to the November election. Repeated requests to stop and take me off didn't work...only a reply-all telling him to stop it and then blocking him from sending any further did the trick. So, when he shows up at my door last month on a whim...well, I was busy and wasn't going to change my plans for my daughter's birthday.

But, if he called me today and said "I was wrong about some things", I'd listen and then ask if he'd help me get rid of him.

[Seedersandleechers]

71. We, knew this would happen-why not them?

[Lowell]

72. I work with a neocon asshole at my shop

he is your typical fundie, homophobic, brain dead * supporter. He has been crowing about * accomplishments for the past five years. Well a couple weeks ago his 18 son came home with enlistment papers for the Marines. Suddenly this asshole is lamenting the direction the war is going. I have no sympathy for him and deep concern for his young son.

[ovidsen]

73. Better to convert them than disown them.

Reconcile with yer bro, mopaul, point out his evil ways, and maybe he will convince someone else, who will convince someone else....

[mnmoderatedem]

75. I have the same situation with my mother

but can't get riled up, considering she's 70 years old and presently recovering from shoulder surgery.

The sad thing is, I could have gotten through to her before she voted, except she voted by absentee ballot before I had a chance to talk her out of voting for shrub. She regrets it today.

What really gets me about public sentiment turning against shrub is, what has changed since last november? We knew everything then that we know now. It's just that the war has dragged on and more are getting killed for no reason, like that's a surprise.

[Skittles]

78. THANK YOU MOPAUL

I know exactly how you feel; it would seem we should be rejoicing that they're finally pulling their heads out but I feel nothing but comtempt and disgust for anyone who ever could have voted for such an obviously incompetent piece of shit; I think bush voters can rot in hell. Should I feel this way? I don't know Do I feel this way? HELL YES I DO.

[mopaul]

79. they don't DESERVE our forgiveness

and i ain't givin' it

[RagAss]

81. I wish there was a way only they could freeze this winter...

but the truth is many will suffer that fate because of these greedy creeps....No mercy on the * supporters who want to share the fact that they now "see the light".....fuccem .... we had to eat their shit for too long......and who would they forgive???

[mopaul]

83. my daughter died in iraq, & i support the war, but i sort of dislike bush

[Crazy Guggenheim]

86. Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

[K8-EEE]

87. I Give Your Bro Credit....

My friend (now downgraded to aquaintence actually!) and I fought like hell about Bush & The Iraq War & he was hard line Faux Propaganda hook, line & sinker.

Now he just "prefers not to talk about it" and "thinks ALL politicians are worthless" etc. Fuck that!! These GWB lovers are just like GWB, can NOT admit a mistake it's like PATHALOGICAL!

At least your brother can admit a mistake. Welcome him into the reality community -- don't turn him out!

[Mythsaje]

89. Your brother I can understand

but I have issues with people attacking the "know-nothings." Under-educated, never taught critical thinking skills, and bombarded by RW media folks and bible-thumping conservative preachers. They got double-whammied.

THIS is what they need to hear now...

There is NO "liberal agenda" but the shared interest of liberals who want to see things get better for everyone. You, your parents, and the guy who bags groceries down at the Piggly-Wiggly.

Liberals want to see you with enough money to buy groceries, pay off your house, and put at least one gas-efficient vehicle in your garage.

It's not an agenda. It's people hoping for the best for other people.

It's about hoping that your Uncle John, who's been farming the same plot of land for the last 40 years, doesn't lose his farm because he falls off his tractor and breaks his leg and can't pay his doctor bill.

MORE HERE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4358998&mesg_id=4358998

[AuntieM1957]

90. I say we brand all the fools "Dumb MF" right on their forehead

that way, we know to avoid them.

Oh, the ways we can use that Patriot Act.

Life will be good again.

;) :applause:

[Tigress DEM]

93. Wrong attitude. Shame on anyone who does this.

Sick to death of all the people who are looking forward to grinding underfoot anyone who was conned into voting for this fraudulant president.

I don't care how much you told him before, if he's listened to enough to grow a brain and change it AND he is your blood YOU SHOULDN'T BE SUCH an Ass.

What a disgrace to the party you are if you turn away from your brother now - and it isn't just you. There is a huge group of people who will agree with you and beat me down mightily.

Tolerance anyone?

I mean I understand really being dynamite on people who are still stuck, but when a male of the species walks up to his sister and admitts he might have been WRONG about something as serious as this (when there is that whole Republican quicksand that would just love to keep him stuck) it's practically a miracle and you just spit on it.

It's too bad he doesn't have a sister that could love and forgive him and teach him more about being a decent human being, now that he's grown a conscience... but this is all about you, right? How horrible he's treated you? And I'm sure he has.

One guy I work with said when his sister "got herself pregnant" (another immaculate conception, huh?) that he ragged on her for going on assistance. I know that woman would have every right to rail on her brother if he grew a conscience and said the same things your brother did and yet... even in that situation kindness and forgiveness would do more to show how "right" she is than attacking him back, because that's just being kids in the back seat... "he started it!"

Grow up and be a credit to Democrats everywhere instead of just another whinner. Go find a way to make peace with your brother, then maybe together you guys could figure out a way to get Israel and Palestine talking again.

Good luck. Sorry to be so hard on you, but we need every reasonable person in ANY party to get this country repaired after we evict the felons from the White House.

If your brother has quit drinking the koolaid, snatch him up quick before he changes his mind. He opened up to YOU about this, what if your love (buried however deep it must be) is the ONLY thing he can trust in this world gone mad? Hope you aren't too late to repair the damage.

[Mythsaje]

95. You're right...

I understand the anger, but it can't be unleashed that way.

[Tigress DEM]

106. I remember my dad, an old army sargent....

he'd get all up in a dander about something, scream and yell and such, but afterward he'd go for a walk and come back and apologize.

I don't remember a damm thing he said when he was all bent out of shape, but I knew him to consistently come back and say he was sorry and then talk through things with us. That meant a lot.

So I have a lot of hope for this girl and her brother if they can do the same. Be angry, fine. Shout it out if you have to, but never forget that down deep there is the love and in the end it had to rule.

At least that is my hope.

[FreedomAngel82]

96. Why is he regretting it?

[sepia_steel]

103. PLEASE

Welcome these people, don't turn them away. Get past your anger - it's selfish to focus on that instead of all the change that we can help bring about together. Of course you're right about everything you've said. But these people who 'regret' Bush are gonna be coming in droves. Keep your mind, your arms, and your heart open to them. Don't be a slave to your resentment, people, it's the wrong way.

[Ladyhawk]

104. I agree. I doubt my family will ever come around. I'd be so happy

if they did, though. I was very angry with them for a long time. I'm still a bit angry. :( I've been growing in a different direction for a long time.

And I must admit to voting for Bush once. I came close to not voting at all, but I did vote for him because I was relying on the "mainstream media" for my news. I didn't know what I was doing, but when the war drums started pounding, I woke up.

Do any of you want to turn me away because I was late to the party? I hope not.

[Miss Chybil]

105. Best to welcome him to the "good" side.

And move on with life.

[stevietheman]

107. I'd do the opposite... give him a big hug.

Heck, I supported the war before it started and up through a few months of it... I was bamboozled too, but I snapped out of it. Are you going to diss me too, even though I've been on the anti-war side for two years now?? Let's be rational here.

[the other one]

112. I ask the recently unemployed who they voted for, and if they say *

I tell them that they deserve to have lost their job. The first step on the road to recovery is to realize and admit that you are an asshole. I think of myself as a one man intervention.

[Fly by night]

113. How many of us voted for Bush without intending to? Maybe 4 million?

Who did your voting machine vote for?

(That's a new button we are handing out here in Tennessee.)

[JNelson6563]

114. We need to welcome these Bush voters

When they realize the error of their ways is the time to reason with them. You were right they were wrong and they are now willing/able to see it. They are likely also able to listen to reason too.

We can tell them "fuck off" or we can recruit them.

Julie

[MADem]

115. Tell him to send a donation to Camp Casey

Tell him to put his money where his mouth is.

Get his ass out there demonstrating. Make him make up for his mistakes. Let him be redeemed, but make him work for his redemption.

We need every body we can muster. Forgive, but don't forget...and wring every effort out of him that you possibly can. If he really is born again, then perhaps he can contribute to the repairing of all those crosses destroyed by that doofus down in Crawford....that's a good place for him to start!

[catmandu57]

121. BITCH, YOU KNEW I WAS A SNAKE!

Once upon a time, a woman was walking down a road on a very cold day. As she walked she saw something lying in the road, growing closer she could she it was a snake. Not just any snake either, but, the most deadliest of snakes in that land.

When she had walked to the snake Ir whispered "help me, so very cold, please help me". the woman felt very sad and picked the reptile up and put it in between her coat and skin to warm it up, but that wasn't helping.

So, she took the snake into her warm house and lay it next to the fire, after a while the snake began to move and come back to life, the woman went to it and began rubbing the reptile.

She picked the snake up to hold it close to her, and, when she did it bit her on the cheek. horrified she threw the snake down and cried " why did you bite me?"

He looked at her as she collapsed and said "BITCH...YOU KNEW I WAS A SNAKE WHEN YOU BROUGHT ME IN. "





That's the way I look at these people they're not to be trusted.


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