How far will Bush's supporters go to protect him?

[Pepperbelly]

Of course, with the Plume affair, the full facts of the matter are mostly unknown but the question that intrigues is who in the Bush White House shopped the story around and the identity of Novak's source(s). There are only 3 scenarios that I can foresee that could result in charges against anyone: 1) If the reporters reveal who it was; 2) if Novak reveals, or 3) the source tells on him/herself. Without one or more of those breaks, this will be nothing more than a political shitstorm that can be ridden out.

HOWEVER ...

If they get one of those breaks, it becomes interviewing. And the question becomes how far up the ladder does this go? And then, what follows, although speculative, is this: how far will the Administration officals go in protecting ... Bush. He would be the Grand Wazoo, the Big Casino. How many would fall on their sword and sacrifice their gigs? How many would go to jail for him?

Then in descending importance ---Cheney, Rcie, Rumsfeld, Powell, on down the line. At what point, in protecting these people, would subordinates say, "Hey, fuck ol Condi. I'm not going up the river for HER."

Thoughts?

[Cappurr]

1. How far did they go to steal an election?

How far did they go to lie to us about the reasons for war in Iraq?
How far did they go to make Clintons life a living hell for 8 years because he had the nerve to beat poppy.

Any questions?

[Pepperbelly]

2. yep ...

I'm talking individuals who will fall on their sword for the BFEE, go to prison for cabel members ... that kind of thing.

Do the cammand that much loyalty?

[MoonRiver]

4. Maybe they're being threatened with much worse, e.g. violence

against their families. I believe this junta will go as far as necessary to achieve their sick and evil ends.

Edited for sentence structure.

[Cappurr]

21. Sure

Look at Ollie North. And other Iran/Contra guys who were pardoned.

These guys are not being run by Bush. They are being run by a Cabal much greater and more powerful than Bush. That is the scary thing.

[elfin]

3. this is the most secrecy obsessed WH

in history - they will stonewall FOREVER. The staff has been chosen for LOYALTY over any other qualification for any particular job.

I doubt we will ever know, unless it shows up in political gossip pieces like Vanity Fair via leaks from the press to the press.

Our only hope is that it doesn't die, we get an IP and the terms "stonewalling" and "secrecy" begin appearing in daily headlines.

[kid_nz]

5. I think it comes down to a question of...

...average intelligence. From everything I've been able to see of this administration, it's been a battle over who's the most like the next guy. They seem to act en masse. ie: this week is 'act stupid' week, this week is 'verbal blunder' week, etc.

The implication of any 'lemming' approach to such things is that there's more stupidity than there is intelligence. So, my guess is a small number of them will be holding swords for the rest to fall on. I'd be very surprised if Cheney, for instance, allowed there to be enough substantial damage done to harm any future hopes for his own presidential bid. Cheney, sadly, is no lemming.

I think in protecting themselves, a few clever ones will accidently protect Monkey Boy.

[newyawker99]

23. Hi kid_nz!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[spanone]

6. I would not underestimate them for one second.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

7. One word.

Anthrax.

[KoKo]

8. You must mean the "Plame Affair"...instead of "Plume affair"...or has he

done some other damn thing while I was out tonight......;-)

Whatever...I don't know...but I think some "powers that be" would like to start hitting at some of his group (like what happened with Nixon) Sort of picking them off. Since the whole group is rotten to the core, including the Squatter.....it's hard to know who they might want first.

My best guess is that Rummy might be the most dangerous for world stability.....but he's a very big fish....so my next best guess would be Condi..... Repugs don't like females...but her ethnicity....might bother them OTOH.....they aren't counting on the African American vote....and they still have Powell......so probably Condi. That would be a cut that would draw blood. Cheney's probably TOO BIG....and he is the "Puppet Master," .......but well...if they could get ROVE that would really leave a power vacuum and crush their machine.

So......we need to watch to see.....who the "big guys" are going to go after....who's their target.

Nice to see you PB...on a post that isn't about Clark......

It's nice to have something else to concern us......we all needed a break for a bit! :-)'s

[Pepperbelly]

12. Plume Plame Plime ... it's all good ...

I guess what I am getting at is this: when they throw Condi or whoever over the side in hopes that the wolves will be so busy tearing her apart that they will no longer hunger when they finish ...would Condi take a canning for this? Would she go to jail for Bush? Would she make a deal?

Or might he pardon them pre-emptively to remove the leverage that the legal system might have over her? That would be foolproof although he would have to kiss off the election and probably the nomination as well.

I expect that if sufficient pressure is applied, the smaller sharks who swim much shallower will give up the next bigger one to get out of the frying pan. And so on and so forth. I am just looking at the pragmatic aspects of breaking these fucks open. I think that they have some weak minds and weak wills. No Gordon Liddys among this crew.

[frank frankly]

16. Good point about Gordon Liddy

and preemptive pardoning.

To address your question, there apparently already is a Deep Throat Senior WH Official. As much as the BFEE murders, threatens, etc, I think some of these idealogical morons will crack.

I honestly don't know how they are going to get away from this one.

[Pepperbelly]

18. Gotta give it to G. Gordon ...

he wouldn't say shit if he had a mouthful. That sucker can HOLD water.

[DrBB]

25. Been thinking about who that "senior official" is and why. See below.

n/t

[meisje]

9. how far would you go to protect a liberal?

exactly

[Pepperbelly]

14. although I am uncertain what it is that you mean ... my answer would be ..

if they fucked up, fuck them. I'm not going to Folsom for any politician. :D

on edit: Bill Clinton once screwed me over in a legal manner. Hung me out to dry for what was HIS idea, although I did not hold it against him.

So no, they can bite me if they think I'd take a fall for any of them.

[LiberalVoice]

10. I think your missing the point.

"Then in descending importance ---Cheney, Rcie, Rumsfeld, Powell, on down the line."

These aren't the top guys. Nor is Bushit. These ARE the fall guys for the real "Men" running the world.

These are the men that without knowing it will do everything they can from allowing the people of the WORLD to know the truth!

[sangha]

11. Bush* could be forced to resign

"for the good of the party"

[kid_nz]

15. not as long as...

...they're still using him to REDEFINE the party...

[HEyHEY]

13. Some thoughts are too scary

[gulliver]

17. Past ethical borders at warp speed.

Past the spirit of the law at 90 MPH.
Past the letter of the law, but slowly, carefully, and sneakily.

[0rganism]

19. Further than he'd go to protect them, that much is clear

His economic advisors seem to turn over pretty quick, and Ari left shortly after the Plame thing started, IIRC.

Some would fall on their swords, some will no doubt be "persuaded" to walk the plank, and some appear to have enough common sense to start leaving before the shit flies in earnest. E.g., bush's 1st treasury secretary, Paul O'Neil, the one who went 3rd-world hopping with Bono, I swear he had a look of fear in his eyes before he checked out of that job. Haven't seen or heard from him since then. Ditto for Ari fLIEscher. Get out, stay low.

[Pepperbelly]

20. astute and spot on I must say ...

Whistle-ass reminds me of the Martin Sheen character in the film, Dead Zone", the politician that held up the child as a shield during an assassination attempt? He was in King's book and I do not recall the character name but Whistle-ass sure reminds me of the son of a bitch.

If they start tumbling, it will go only as far as they can be persuaded to give up the next higher one of the food chain.

edited because my spelling sux.

[this_side_up]

22. Yes and

the CIA has The Dirt on ALL of them, including the Money People
Who Are Running Things Behind the Curtain.

Hopefully, the CIA chooses to do them all long and hard as
in jail beds because I would like to believe that there
are some people in govt who are honest, have ethics
and integrity.

Blow it open, please. All of it and let the chips
fall where they may.

We, The People can handle it. Trust us.

[Beam Me Up]

26. here here

I, too, believe there are people of integrity within the CIA, within the branches of the Military, within government and the judiciary. I call on these people as I call on everyone here and throughout our society to begin to take responsible action against those who have usurped the reigns of Executive power. Their policies are putting every man, woman and child in this country in grave danger.

This is not an exageration.

[DrBB]

24. Not three scenarios, Pepperb, FOUR

You're leaving out one source on this story: whoever the "high official" was who was quoted about l'affaire Plame in last week's WPost. There seems to be someone highly placed enough to know the details and who has risked career (and more, if some tinfoil hat theories are correct) to further the story.

Not that I think this person is any great hero, mind you--whoever it is, they are withholding evidence of a felony--misprision, a felony in itself.

But there is SOME insider, a pretty DEEP insider by all indications, who doesn't want this story to just fade away. He/she may say more if it starts to die. More to the point, it changes the dynamic among the circle of those who know and are facing an investigation. Put yourself in such a person's place. A cover-up on something this serious is itself a serious crime--jail time, loss of reputation, career, everything. Now, you know someone else has already spilled to the press. Is that person going to hang tough through a cover-up? The first person to turn gets immunity; everyone else gets trashed. If it starts heating up, you've got to be thinking, "Better to turn now before someone else does." True for the source him/herself, too. Having gone to such lengths already and then have someone else get the protection would not be an "optimal outcome" for this person.

There is something really weird going on right now--can't figure out which of the Bush-league machiavels could be playing this game, nor to what end. I have a really dark speculation, though. I've been seeing signs of a Roveian plot to make Cheney the fall-guy for Iraq. Some kind of push away from Cheney-as-bad-guy in order to reposition the Flying Chimp in the center for the election. I think they deliberately let the old snarling bastid go way out on a limb about Saddam, 9/11 and all, just as they were getting ready to shift the message to "No connection! We're honest, see?" Somehow Dick didn't get the memo before going out on the Sunday talks. Perhaps even got quite a deliberately different one. I'm not being paranoid here: these guys do NOT go out on the Sunday shows without coordinating their message ahead of time. That is just not a mistake that happens. Communications/PR/Spin are ALL to this admin, mainly b/c of Rove.

So I could quite easily imagine Cheney sending a little message back to the Chimp's bosom adviser, via a careful leak to the WPost. As in, Cheney to Rove: "I know what you did last summer."

I don't have any idea if it's true or not, but I think this is how they play the game.

If that's true, then the message has been sent, and that's the last we'll hear of it, as long as those rumors that maybe it's time for the elderly coronary-case snarler to think about spending more time with his family also fade away.

edit: dropped a clause