Pledge Fiasco: Episode III

[Idioteque]

Episode I: Why I won't be saying the peldge tommorow.
Episode II: So I didn't say the pledge today.

If you've been following my story, I know you are ready to hear the next chapter.

Today I finally got to talk to the administrator. Since my Assistant Principal is out at a seminar, my referral was handled by the assistant administrator for the magnet program I am a memeber of. This guy is a biology teacher that I know really well. He is very nice and very fair and respectful to students.

So he said "Hey Ray, have a seat. I heard you had a problem with Mrs. Dicus. Explain what happened."
I told him my story and afterwards he said that he disagrees with the way the teacher handled the situation and he won't be putting the referral on my record. At the same time, he said that we should obey the teacher's request to stand out of respect.

I didn't argue with him. I know he was doing his best to be fair but I really don't think throwing out the referral is enough. The First Amendment is at stake. BOTH days when I was in the office, the teacher gave a spiel about the importance of the pledge during the war on terror. She even called those that don't stand "outcasts". I really have a problem with teachers forcing their personal beliefs on their students and that is exactly what she was doing.

The teacher does NOT have the right to force students to stand. Period. No amount of compromise can change that. She simply doesn't have that power.

We have filed a complaint with the Florida ACLU. I really hope they take the time to look at it, even if it is just to offer us some advice.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to me whine. I'd really appreciate any advice from lawyers, teachers...really anybody that has something to offer. I appreciate all of the kind comments in my previous posts. We aren't giving up yet...this thing is just getting started. :)

[evermind]

1. No advice for you - but just to say I think it is FANTASTIC

that you are standing up (... er, sitting down?!) against this appalling indoctrination technique.

As a resident of a country (UK) where we have nothing like this, from my perspective the pledge has always appeared bizarre, sinister, and redolent of totalitarianism.

Having said that, I hope you will not end up in any situation that jeopardises your academic future, and think carefully about what to do if things escalate.

Thanks for keeping us up to date...

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. I'm a teacher

and first of all, you are right. I told you the other day that this teacher has absolutely no right to force you to stand. I am glad you contacted the ACLU and proud of you for taking a stand.

As far as what the biology teacher told you, you need to remember that his job is to find a compromise between you and the teacher. He was there to solve a problem and to keep it from being blown out of proportion. Also remember that he definitely will be filing a report with the administration (even though it's not on your record, it will be reported) and someone will discuss this incident with the teacher. And you should be hoping to be a fly on the wall during that meeting. Administrators have a knack for making teachers responsible for every little problem in their classrooms. At the very least, this teacher will be made a little uncomfortable for forcing you to stand during the pledge. It is also the administrator's job to know that what she did is wrong. So maybe even a head will roll. But you will probably never know how the teacher is disciplined. My point is that she WILL be disciplined. This is no minor deal.

Is there a way you can request transferring out of this class? Since you are filing a complaint with the ACLU, it may be better for all parties to put some distance between you.

[Idioteque]

4. The good thing is, it's just a homeroom class...

...we get a pass/fail grade for watching the announcements, writing opinion essays every week and mentoring underclassmen. I do think they are moving me out though because this teacher really doesn't like me now.

I'm more worried about my brother. He has her for computers (and she really is a horrible computer teacher >_<). I'm afraid she might take it out on him. Half of me doesn't mind that but I don't hate him *that* much ^_^.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. If the ACLU contacts the school

I would bet they would move you out of that class.

[wellstone dem]

3. i just saw these threads

and they reminded me of an episode in my high school career. It was the early 70's, the Viet Nam war was still going on. I sat during the pledge of allegiance. The teacher (also Dean of Students) walked up to me and said, "Stand" I told her, "I will stand when I have the freedom to sit." (I don't remember what happened next, I think she just talked to me about it later. She knew my parents would support me so I don't think there was much she could do. I had forgotten about the whole thing til at a class reunion someone told me I was her hero! Who knew?)

Anyway, congratulations on your courage and integrity. (And who knows, maybe you are someone's hero too!)

[MuseRider]

5. The problem is

that she is going to make you stand but the thing that ticks me off to no end is the pledging during the war on terror like that should be different.

Do what you have to. This is not right. Can you stand and turn your backs? You are then obeying her order to stand but not pledging. I just don't get why she feels the need to force this.

[Idioteque]

7. That's really what I hate the most about it...

My grandfather is a veteran of the Korean war. I have family stationed in Iraq as we speak. The fact that my teacher is questioning the patriotism of her students or their dedication to the troops is sickening to my stomache.

[MuseRider]

10. Pledging to the flag

has nothing at all to do with support or dedication to the troops, that simply makes no sense to me. Patriotism? Well, I suppose traditionally people have thought that but I don't buy it either. I have not been in a similar situation since all this began but I do remember how angry people would get during Vietnam when we would not stand or sing the Star Spangled Banner. It all just depends on how far you want to take this. Personally, I think the teacher is out of line. People have different ways to express how they feel and she should know that trying to force you to do things her way is not going to work. Even if you eventually have to do it she will know that you are just going through the motions so I see this as just another power trip. Remember, people who have died and fought so that you have the opportunity to Pledge to the flag also died and fought so that you could chose not to express yourself that way. The other side forgets that.

[Tsiyu]

6. Keep up the fight and thanks for the update

Don't back down.

And perhaps do a paper on all the "outcasts" who have positively impacted America.

That teacher is a freakin' nut case Fascist.

:yourock:

[damntexdem]

8. I don't suppose your school would let you distribute the real pledge:

"I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, with liberty and justice for all."

Offer to do a history report on Bellamy and the pledge.

[Ms. Toad]

12. It makes absolutely no difference to me

whether the words "under God" are included or not.

Leaving them out doesn't change the fact that saying the pledge in schools (and in every other circumstance in which I have encountered it) is a rote recitation of loyalty oath - which encourages jingoism. A little less of that and we might get along a lot better with the rest of the world.

[Starone]

9. I'm a teacher

and am totally amazed by your second post that the school officials didn't acknowledge the supreme court ruling because it's from 1943....unbelievable! You are very brave to fight this issue and have done a wonderful job connecting to the right people. Wish you the best with the ACLU and hope you keep us all posted. You are fighting a very important cause. We all, teachers and students, have the right to make a choice about pledging our allegiance to the flag. No educator and no government should be so powerful as to take individual choice away from students or teachers alike. Thank you.

[Mr_Spock]

13. You are doing exactly the right thing IMHO

I hope it all works out for you - and don't you worry, they're going to try and intimidate you at every possible juncture - boy scout motto "be prepared". Good going - you seem to have a good head for this.

[enough]

14. Thanks for the update, Ideoteque.

You have a lot more courage than I did when I was having to recite that pledge (and that was so long ago, the pledge didn't have the "under God" part in it yet). Every time I said it, I KNEW I shouldn't, but I went ahead and pledged my fealty to a FLAG.

Well done.

[Mich Otter]

15. Can any DUers help by contacting the ACLU?

Does anyone here know who they can get in touch with to help this situation get the kind of attention it deserves?

[spooky3]

16. Contact the Freedom from Religion Foundation

www.ffrf.org

They have done a lot of work with the Pledge of Allegiance case that went to the Supreme Court (Newdow lost because he "had no standing"). A Mennonite has recently challenged the pledge recitation because it violates his religion to have to pledge to a flag or republic.

You sound like a great kid.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Well done *hugs* Kudos for having the courage of your convictions

[Mnemosyne]

18. I've been following your story and

I think you are amazing!! I know many "adults" that fake it because they don't have the guts you do to stand up for what they believe.
Hang in there Id! You know you have been doing the right thing and that is all you can ever do.
It's a great way to live.

Always remain honorable to yourself. You are the one you have to face each day for the rest of your life.:hug:

[Hissyspit]

19. Good for you. When I was in high school back in the late 1970s...

I would stand, but not say the pledge.

[tomg]

20. Great job.

Just one thing. You are doing anything but "whining." It's called patriotism.

[Midnight Rambler]

21. Rock on, brother (sister?)

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[Roland99]

22. Stand strong by sitting!

[tblue37]

23. If you chose to you could sue them for

punitive damages. If they don't know that, they should. My guess is that they know that. Schools are terrified of expensive lawsuits!

If the Florida ACLU doesn't respond, contact the national headquarters. This is the sort of case they will take.

When the school administration violated his rights in high school, I told my son's assistant principal that I had already contacted the ACLU. I didn't even have to threaten to sue. I just mentioned that I had called the ACLU, and the school backed down so fast you would not believe it. They were in the wrong and they knew it. They just didn't think they would have any trouble railroading my son or browbeating me.

Hah!

This is the sort of thing that if they don't back down it will become a cause celebre and could go all the way to the Supreme Court--though you would undoubtedly get a favorable ruling much, much earlier from a lower court. In fact, it wouldn't even come to that--the school will back down because their lawayers will tell them they can't win this one. The law on it is clear.

[0007]

24. Hang tough guys. Soon there will only be a few is this class

that will stand. Then watch the snickers.