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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 08:52 PM
Original message
Update on the man from my driveway.
Edited on Mon Aug-15-05 08:59 PM by converted_democrat
For those who don't know what I'm talking about here's a link for you to catch up. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4337376


First of all I just want to say thank you to the DU members who encouraged me to get involved with this, it has truly changed me for the better in more ways than you will ever know. I also want to thank the DU'ers that offered financial help and support, even though it was thankfully not needed. You have no idea how awesome it is to set out to do something and know that people actually have your back, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

All is well and Frank and Margie will not lose their home. After talking to them both and reviewing their financials, my husband and I figured out how to make sure they could stay put. I do not want to go into great detail because of their privacy, and Frank is rightfully a very proud man. I do really want to say though, please support your local VFW. Please. I made three phone calls and Frank had what he needed to catch up. Please, please support your local VFW, please. Frank will be working part time answering the phone and scheduling jobs for our small business. (Is my hubby great, or what?) Between the new job, and the help from the VFW, Frank and Margie are going to be okay.

I sat Frank down beside me on the computer so he could read all of the kind things you guys had to say about him. He was a bit overwhelmed. He just kept saying, "Those strangers cared that much about me? They've never met me, I can't believe they cared." He was really choked up about it all, and extremely impressed that people he did not even know, wanted to make sure he could keep his home. He sincerely seemed shocked that people like you guys exist.

This has turned out to be a really good experience for me though, too. Frank is a very smart gentleman and there is so much that he can teach me about politics and the history of our country. He is an amazing guy that will add so much to our lives. We are already making plans to walk together on the weekends.

I want to thank all of you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you to all of you. I have changed alot since I started out on this site, and it has all been for the good. I can not remember the last time I felt this good about anything. I have no idea what forces brought me to this board, or Frank to my driveway, but I am so thankful for all of it.

On edit- I was out of batteries for my digital camera, but I have them now. When Frank comes to work tomorrow I will snap a pic for you and post it somewhere on this thread. ( I'm tech challenged, but will do my best.)
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is outstandingly wonderful. I felt sick for that couple. Bless
both of you for doing so much and I agree about the VFW. This is a great story's end.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Really nice story. Nominated.
I think you mean "financials" instead of facials in the 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph?
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Oops. Thank you! My spelling leaves a lot to be desired!! n/t
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Pardon my ignorance, but how does 'reviewing their facials' help them
keep their house? I mean, maybe they could get a better job with a nicer looking face, but...
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. It was supposed to read financials, but I am spelling challenged!!!
Sad huh, when even the spell checker does not understand what your trying to spell?
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. You Know... I'm So Much Like You When I See Evident Mistakes...
but recently I got an email with almost every word misspelled, but you could still figure out EXACTLY what was being said. The point of the email was that as long as you have certain letters in a given word, you can figure it out.

My sister's always called me "The English Teacher" because I was constantly correcting them. I know how you feel and I'm sorely tempted many times to call others out when I see obvious mistakes. But then something funny happens, I look at WHAT I wrote and sometimes find a mistake there.

Some of us are "word hounds" and some of us aren't! Ergo... Acronyms abound here at DU!

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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. I got that email too...
...but some people take it more seriously. Like here:

http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j9/conflicting1.php
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Yep... That's How It's Done!
Pretty funny. Does this mean I get to CHEAT at Scrabble??

Nice Link... amazing what you find on the Internet. Think I'll keep that one for future reference. In my mail today I received a book I ordered called "Grammar Desk Reference", the definitive source for clear and correct writing! I'm not writing a book or anything, I just have a curiosity or compulsion about this stuff.

But does it really matter??? I'm SICK!


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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #39
53. OK, aunt josephine...
:-)



(google her if you didn't see the movie.)
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blockhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. no, thank YOU!
Edited on Mon Aug-15-05 09:01 PM by blockhead
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. What great news!
I'm so glad things are working out. It's good to hear something positive happening to good people.
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Oooh; please draw him into coversation about
WWII if he remembers (is he that old or are we talking Korean War and Vienam?)and get some comparisons. That was truly the greatest generation and they never fail to inspire. Any stories he has would be enjoyed and probably well worth hearing. Make sure you share some of what he says on your walks.
Oh; and tell him I'm looking for a new grandfather & grandmother since mine are already gone.....:hi:
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ornotna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ok, you made me cry
God bless you.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. I am so happy to hear how you have connected...
I followed the first thread and ...damn, isn't it amazing what the DU/internet community can do?? Please tell Frank and Margie that there are literally thousands of us out here in Web Land Supporting them. And we are willing to help them in so many ways our US government will not.

peace,
lc
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Isn't the universe an amazing place? He was guided to you for a special
reason....and it turned out to be something that was a lesson for both of you, and perhaps for all of us that have read your story.
A real-life parable.
:hi:
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nice to hear some good news.
You are all lucky to have bumped into each other.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm SO glad that things seem to be working out.
I wish that we could do it for everyone who's in trouble. THIS,THIS is why we have to get our Country working again. WE can accomplish so much together and we can do nothing all divided and conquered by the corporate right.
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SalmonChantedEvening Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. We're glad you're here too converted_democrat
All the best to Frank and Margie and bless you for letting them have the piece of mind when they needed it the most!

:loveya:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. Aw heck!
I read thru that whole thread but didn't reply. Had I known you would let your new driveway friend read the messages I would have posted a nice note. Oh well! :-) But that was nice of you to share your story.

Good luck to your new walking buddy!
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jhain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank *YOU* and DH
I have been thinking about Frank and Margie non- stop.

He is a brave man and we owe him our gratitude.

I am grateful for his past service to my country- and grateful for his courage to continue to serve as he is doing now.
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. Glad we could help and that you and Frank feel great ! nt
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. Hey, converted_democrat, thank you.
That was a truly kind way to react to this guy, and props to your husband who made it happen in the first place. He could have blown the guy off as a nut, but instead chose to become involved, as you did.

That man is a patriot.

You are making the world a better place. That's the highest calling of all.

Peace. :)
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. If it were my call...
I would ixnay the pix. The gentleman's privacy is, I'm sure, important to him, and we all know how freepulsives hate it when Libs do good for someone (witness Andy). They are unstable people, and relish bringing harm to innocents.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
58. Your right several people have PM'ed me and said the same thing.
I had not even thought about that angle. Someone down thread mentioned the same thing.
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ohtransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. Great story. I had tears too.
Please let us know if/and or when we can pitch in.

For you lurking freeps - THIS is what Jesus would do.
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:11 PM
Original message
What a happy ending
I missed the whole first thread. I'm glad things are working out but if you need anything just give a holler. :yourock:
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Ptah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. I hope you can get him to speak a few paragraphs
Edited on Mon Aug-15-05 09:13 PM by Ptah
about his memories of times gone by.

That's what I treasure about my parents, aunts & uncles and granparents.

The oral history is so important.

:thumbsup:

On edit: spaek=speak
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. Oh, man--
I LOVE stories like this! Thanks for sharing it with us.

(BTW, I was the one kvetching about the lack of white space in the original post. Thanks for it in this one!)
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. I was too angry in my original post
to write that I am sending best wishes to this gentleman. I did, however, say a prayer for him and his wife, that they would get the help they need and deserve.

I am very grateful our prayers were answered. My dad is a vet of WWII, 79 years old, and I know what this great generation did for our country.

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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. I Have A Similar Story About A Neighbor Who Really Is P.O.ed
at "the corrupt ones" and never knew it. I found out about it on Inauguration Day when I had painted a HUGE sign and put it in my front yard saying "We Protest The Inauguration Of An Idiot"!!!

This too was in Florida in a VERY Repuke county. Anyone who has read any of my posts certainly knows who my Congressperson is!!

My husband came in and told me the guy drove by and honked his horn and gave him a thumbs up! He then came back and knocked on the door and said he wished he had the guts to do what I did. I told him you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything! He howled!

Bet there's more out there than we think!

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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
26. Well...you have had quite a productive day!
God bless, sweetheart. :hug:
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
27. Beautiful ending to a great story.
Thank you, converted_democrat!

:hi:
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
28. This is a wonderful thing to read
I am happy things are working out for this couple.

This is what this country is supposed to be. This is beautiful.

:D
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks so much converted_democrat for sharing your meeting
and the success of your connection with Frank. God Bless you for caring so much about Frank and Margie.

Be sure you let him know how grateful we are for his service! :patriot:

Bless you for coming to DU and sharing with us. :hug:

:grouphug:

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dalloway Donating Member (744 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
30.  a wonderful, wonderful story.! Thanks for updating us.
I hope that Frank saw, in the outpouring of the posts about him, the essential goodness of people like those here--the best antidote in the world to the hate and vitriol that this administrations has raised to an art form

Gladly nominated.
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blue neen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
31. You did great work on this.
I'm sure that your family and Frank's will be enriching each other's lives. :hi:


Thanks for the tip on the VFW.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
32. That is so great to hear! And bless you and hubby
for taking the time and effort needed to care. My thoughts are with you all.

V
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. Geez, now you got me all choked up!
Edited on Mon Aug-15-05 09:39 PM by Mr_Spock
People like you are amazing to me - so glad you were there for this man. :toast:

edit, I mean couple...
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
34. What a great story. Thanks for sharing it.
There are some very giving people at DU.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
36. You rock.
Really. You do.
I have been wondering about the end of this story. Thank you for sharing a great ending. Please give Frank and Margie my best.:applause:
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. That's wonderful - I'm so glad he found you!! n/t
n/t
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
38. Wonderful! *hugs*
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
40. That is so sweet. Thanks for helping them...I'm sure you will be rewarded
many times over...Karma's like that.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
41. What a heartwarming story...
This is an example of exactly what I've always believed true Democrats are all about. We are the party of compassion... and we don't just pay it lip service. Hugs to you and your husband. Frank and Margie, too. Oh, and tell them: Welcome to DU! :hi:
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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thank you!!
PLEASE let us help wherever we can, and PLEASE record them talking. This can be their great legacy.

DU loves Frank and Margie! :grouphug:

Bless you for helping them and sharing your story.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
43. You just brought tears to my eyes reading your account of this.
Thanks for sharing it!
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
44. God Bless you and your husband
I read your account the other morning of being awakened to a strange man in your driveway..I cried..because of what it must have meant for an elder gentleman to start walking around his neighborhood and sharing his fears and his story...I shared it with a few people that afternoon...I am so glad that this is working out in such a beautiful way....makes me feel more hopeful..thank you...and thank Frank for accepting your help ...sometimes we just need a little encouragement from each other because God knows our government only gives us nightmares...Peace
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FourStarDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
45. What a wonderful, wonderful story and outcome.
My best wishes for happiness for Frank and his family. You both opened your hearts to them. You added sunshine to my day. :)
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. incredible joyful loving news.. thank you so and yes also to the duers
who posted such strong support

and i send big hugs to you and to your husband
and please give them to frank and margie

you are all beautiful people
please do keep us posted again and again

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
47. Heartwarming ending. I'm so HAPPY he found you and your husband!
THIS is what our country is all about....helping your fellow man. :hug: This does my heart good and I REALLY needed something like this right now after hearing about the crosses being desecrated at Camp Casey. Thank you so much and please give Frank and Margie a great big hug for me. :hug:
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
48. I think God is smiling on you, friend.
Good for you :)
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LeahD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
49. People reaching out and helping others. Bless your hearts. n/t
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
50. You'll ask his permission before posting his photo, right?
And also explain the exposure involved? I just thought I'd mention that. He mightn't really understand how exposed having his photo on the net would make him.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #50
57. I did not even think about that aspect of it.
The big reason I tried so hard to do this (fund raising) on my own for them was because I did not want a big stink like the ones the freepers caused for Andy. Your completely right about the pics, I had not thought about it.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. I think it's easy to overlook things like that, especially when you're
caught up in making a big positive difference for someone.

I'm glad I was able to act as your auxiliary memory! :)
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
51. This is wonderful news
Thanks to you and your husband. :) I'm so happy about this that I'm weeping.



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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
52. it's so beautiful when people take each others' hands
It's a blessing to give and to receive.

I just finished reading about the guy who drove through the crosses at Camp Casey, but this lovely thread has restored my faith in human nature. The juxtaposition of that terrible ignorance and hatred against this beauty and goodness reminded me of one of the most poignant and transcendent sentences I've ever read: "I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are really good at heart."
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. Wow...what an awesome story!
Thanks for sharing.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
55. Hey, Frank - when you keep your home, we all keep our home.
:toast:

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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
56. Dear Frank and Margie,
May you have many more wonderful years in your home. Love and hope do win in the end.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
60. AWESOME!
Congratulations to both of you!
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movie_girl99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
61. wow that is so fantastic
thank you so much for sharing this whole thing with us.
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
62. Thanks for the update!
You brightened my day!
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bushliedpeopledied Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
63. Frank & Margie
Dear Converted Democrat, from another converted Democrat
My heart goes out to you for your compassion & help to Frank & Margie. I pray for you. I wish you would tell Frank for me, that for the last 10 years since my father passed away, I have donated money in his name, on his birthday, to the Disabled American Veterans organization. My father was not disabled, but he had such feelings for his comrades that were. I promise to also make a donation to my local VFW in Spokane, WA. in Frank & Margie's name.
To me, you & your husband represent the Democrats that brought me food when I was so hungry. I can't tell you how much it changed my mind when I compared them to my friends in the Republican party.
It only takes one to stand up. THANK YOU
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
64. I have tears in my eyes...
I LOVE happy endings (or is it beginnings?) like this!

While I didn't post in the first thread, I am very happy to read this!

Good luck to you all! :)
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 02:25 PM
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65. wow -- this is very cool!
so glad to hear it!
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
66. Actions and feelings like this are what make DU a community
totally worthy of that name: community.

We may just be a bunch of strangers (okay, some stranger than others), but look what happens when just one of us reaches out...they're joined in action and feeling by so many, many more.

It does my heart good. :loveya:

All the best to you, your husband, Frank & Margie (bless them both) and of course, the VFW!
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Tripper11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
67. Kicked and nominated......
converted_democrat your stroy is truly heartwarming. Thank you, thanks to Frank...I honestly believe it is happening all over.
I myself have my own "Frank". His name is actually Frank, the difference being, Frank, elderly and all hates Bush and all that he stands for. As does another neighbour, John, again and elderly gentleman who have both seen their fair share of good and bad in America.
To your Frank, I wish him all the best, for both him and his wife. With your help, they have their dignity back, and without your dignity what have you got?

Peace to all.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
68. Say hello to Frank and Margie and welcome them to the family!n/t
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Vox_Reason Donating Member (589 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
69. There are Franks and Margies in your own neighborhoods too!
This is a beautiful story, and I'm heartened and inspired by it.

But let's not forget--there are millions of Franks and Margies all over our country. They may live next door to you, or on the next street. They may wave to you as you pass by, or give you advice on how to make the most out of your tomatoes.

They are good Americans, people who have worked incredibly hard, sacrificed so much--people who have done all they could to provide a better life for you and I.

How should we honor them? How should we thank them? What can we do to show our appreciation for the incredible efforts they have made to make America a better place for all of us, our children, our grandchildren, our parents, and our grandparents?

We can all decide to stand up and say that TODAY is the day that we are going to do everything we can to improve the lives of those who have done so much for us; to help secure the futures of those who went without to secure ours; to speak for those whose voices are rarely heard; to provide security and comfort for those who did the same for us.

Can anyone with a shred of human decency argue that we don't owe that to them?
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