A response to "What Motivates the RIght"

[Perky]

Let me preface this by saying I am a democrat. I have been a democrat all my life. I was reared on a norther college campus in the turbulent Sixties. My Mom ran for public office as a democrat. When Martin was killed my dad first instinct and action was to spend that night and the next in Newark as a peacemaker My family marched on Washington back in the day when it was more than vacant symbolism. WHen my town was in the throes of white flight in the mid Seventies,, We made a decision to stay because we were democrats and we were not fearful of new neighbors.

I will match my democratic pedigree with anyone's. Don't anybody dare accuse me of have less of a Democrat because of what I am about to say:

WHat motivates the fundie right is a deep seeded sense that they are called to stand up against cultural and moral relativism which they rightly or wrongly equate with political liberalism.

While you may not agree with their tactics. they have an absolute right to their opinion and to make their opinions known in the marketplace of ideas. YOu may argue "who gives them the right...." Their response would be that they have a Biblical mandate to do this.

THeir problem is that they have quite honestly forgotten about a requirement to strive for reconciliation and to deal in love, They have in many ways forgotten "Love conquers all"....They have forgotten the Greater commandment.

However, much you may disagree with their tactics. fundamentally their primary motivation is honorable.


Now having said that, they are also motivated by what they see as ridicule by they left. THey would call it persecution, and while much of it is certainly a result of their tactics. a good bit of it is also the result of the meanness exhibited on DU.

Some of you ought to be ashamed at how you in one breath defend the founding principal of pluralism and that great democratic belief that ALL Should be Heard. and with the next, treat those who disagree with you with such utter contempt of both their view point and their religious character.

The Christian-bashing and the Jesus-bashing on DU is offensive and suggest a real hypocrisy among those who bash the right for intolerance.

I am not saying they are right, I am not saying their tactics are not inept in many many ways. I am not even suggesting that there needs to be any sense of capitulation.. What I am saying is that it is that some of the rhetoric on this "side of the aisle" is embarrassingly hypocritical to this life-long democrat. Some of the the rhetoric here only serves to validate the snobbery which cause the right to label the left as elitist and ignorant of and belligerent to things of faith

I wonder how many of you who so readily wants to tar and feather anyone who danes to have a fundamentalist view of things has ever really looked at MLK's writings. Martin's life work did not come out of his liberalism it came from his Christianity and not in spite of it. A notion which seems to elude many people on this site so filled with hate for the right.

I am not saying they are right. I am just saying that we need to be bigger and a little less hostile to the plurality of ideas. That is after all that distinction that makes us "tolerant".

[steve2470]

1. whoa

(running for cover and looking for flame-retardant suit)

:nuke:

[SammyWinstonJack]

2. Indeed

:popcorn:

[Beaver Tail]

7. Nice Flame Bait LoL

I support your right to say what you have said

I also tend to agree with you, though not completely and in all aspects but the general idea is not far off the mark.

I find the issues with the Right is they lost their way and forgot what they represent.

[MissMarple]

3. Cindy Sheehan provides an excellent example for us all.

We should all strive to emulate her innate sense of fairness, of justice and the quiet dignity that envelops her in how she meets the world.

[Zenlitened]

4. Wow. Your reasoning here is deeply flawed, to say the least.

Their motivations have very little, if nothing at all, to do with "cultural and moral relativism." They simply have a list of people they hate, starting with gays and lesbians.

No one has ever argued they have no right to express their ideas. Rather, the point is that their ideas are by and large ignorant.

As for the scorn... well, attempting to reason with fundies clearly has gotten us nowhere. It's no surprise that people have thrown up their hands in frustration and are content to toss a few barbs their way -- in exchange for the raw, hurtful hatred the fundies emit.

If the point of your post is to say, "Don't hurt the fundies' feelings," then I say "Save it." That's bunk. The fundies have NOTHING to do with the future well-being of America. At best, they are an obstacle we need to work around, as we focus our message and efforts on people who have not turned faith into an excuse to spread hurt and hatred throughout the world.

[Perky]

6. Their motivation

Has everything to do with their view of cyultural and moral relaticism. My gosh that is all they talk about.

It is expressees in hateful terms to be sure. But there motivation is precisely that.

[Zenlitened]

8. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.

Just because they couch their bile in terms of "cultural and moral relativism," doesn't convince me that that's what motivates them. These people are skilled at saying one thing and meaning another. It's all they know how to do: lie, distort, twist words, turn logic on its head... then lie some more for good measure.

And, frankly, I'm not even sure what the term means, beyond being a a code-word for "people thinking and doing things I don't like." If there was every anything genuine about the phrase, it's long since been washed away by the radical religionists so intent on turning America into a theocracy.

[Perky]

9. Yeah..God Forbid we allow them to sterotype us...

SHeesh. talk about genralizations.

[Zenlitened]

10. ???

:shrug:

[Perky]

11. your post

"Just because they couch their bile in terms of "cultural and moral relativism," doesn't convince me that that's what motivates them. These people are skilled at saying one thing and meaning another. It's all they know how to do: lie, distort, twist words, turn logic on its head... then lie some more for good measure.

And, frankly, I'm not even sure what the term means, beyond being a a code-word for "people thinking and doing things I don't like." If there was every anything genuine about the phrase, it's long since been washed away by the radical religionists so intent on turning America into a theocracy.:

It was sort of chuck full of generalzations... Not all Fundies are motivated to conquer. A lot just want to feel relevant... and many others are just following the crowd at church.

THe point is that generalization precisely validate their sense ob being misunderstood, miscontrued and villified.

[Zenlitened]

15. Well, I understand them perfectly. They deserve to be vilified.

Religious fundamentalists are a danger to America, and the evidence is all around us. Bullies always have some need that motivates them, but a desire to feel "relevant" is no excuse for their behavior. As for just following the crowd -- well, history shows us what that sort of behavior leads to.

Seriously, it does not seem we are going to agree on anything here. Fundies' feelings mean nothing at all to me, and that is entirely their own doing. I did not become their enemy until they declared me so.

I do not want or wish or hope for them to be a part of a solution for making America a better place. I don't think they're capable of it, so I choose to focus my appeals elsewhere. Let them weep and moan all they want. They are not needed, and the sooner they fade back into obscurity, the better.

[MsAnthropy]

20. Only freepers spell this badly

I'm just saying

[BR_Parkway]

5. Nothing to flame in that. I try to differenciate between Christofascists

and actual Christians when I post. I also know, respect and actually like some 'real' conservatives, not the current model that's hijacked what used to be a good and honorable party of people who did what they did because they truly did beleive that it was better for ALL Americans - unlike today's co-opted chickenhawks who been blindly led down a path by those in power with lies, half-truths, fear and sophisticated manipulation.

20-25 years ago, Americans wanted what was best for Americans. Political party loyalty was secondary and each side subscribed to certain goals and theories that they felt would bring about the best results for all. Today, political parties have become a way to divide 'us' from 'them' so that those in power (both sides of the aisle) can remain in power, can raise enormous sums of money, can take care of whichever corporate interests they serve.

We, the People, got fucked and forgotten about along the way. Well, almost forgotten - unless they need money, then they send a stirring email or letter or phone call in the most dire tones about some issue that we, as party loyalists, are supposed to care deeply enough about to dig a little deeper into our wallets and support them in their fight.

Sadly - out of 1 President, 100 Senators, 435 Representatives and numerous other State senators and reps - I can only count on a handful, scattered across the nation, that actually sound like they speak for me. It's not the sound bite, or the campaign slogan or even the cry to rally around whatever cultural battle is being fought today. It's their overall attitude towards the actual citizens of this country, it's their way of consistently standing up for all American's rights as the government attempts to trample them down.

So thanks for saying something real Perky.

[Touchdown]

12. I'm sorry about what I'm about to say, but no further!

Show me examples of this "Christian bashing on DU" Once, twice, 3,4,5 times a week, I see some thin skinned magpie buying into the right wing's frames and swallows this cannard of "Christians as victims". Yet, every time, not one link, not one name, not one source, not one statement to back any of these allegations up. So where are these vile, hatefiiled statements anyway? You don't get to accuse anybody without proof.

If you cannot do this, then I will have to conclude that your entire allegation is nothing more than a load of shit. Until then, I'm deciding not to buy that "lifelong Democrat" thing you say either.

[Perky]

17. Umm

Tak a look at the thread this thread is in response to.

"what motivates the right"

[Touchdown]

25. Ummm. I did. I posted in there.

I saw nothing that could be called "bashing Christians". You got anything else? Post it here. In your own thread. You made the charge. You back it up.

[Rich Hunt]

27. the problem isn't "Christian bashing"

It's that people (perhaps their class status has made them blind) attack the wrong strain of Christianity and ignore the most malicious, which is Calvinism.

[Touchdown]

29. I disagree. I am a Methodist. I know they're not bashing me.

Those who believe that voting for a Democrat is a mortal sin, and to not politicize everything about their outrage of the month (stem cell anyone), and to those who have gone off the deep end, stopped worshipping Jesus, and instead use him as a hammer to destroy what Christianity stands for, and pervert it for their own suspicious, and sometimes racist ends, then I know damn well they're not talking for me, or my beliefs. So when a Duer criticizes, pokes fun, or exposes the hypocrisy of the ones above, they are in no way "bashing" me or Christianity. Just because I wear the mantle of Christian doesn't mean I am in lockstep with everybody else who claims to be Christian as well. Most DUers agree with me.

Calvinism, Southern Baptist, Four Square/Assembly of God Pentacostalism, Opus Dei Catholicism are some of the usual suspects, but there are good, well reasoned people within each of these denominations. Remember, the Netherlands is a Calvinist country as well.

[jsamuel]

13. This is an old post of mine that I thought would go nicely with this:

There was a post stating that the Far Right has taken over America, however I disagree.

Do you actually think Bush is pro-life? Do you actually think Bush is a born again christian? Do you really think Bush and Cheney give a damn what happens to christianity?

They have taken over the Far Right to use it as a way to control people and manipulate them into following anything. They saw the Far Right as a group that defies reason in favor of beliefs, no matter the evidence. This was a perfect opportunity for them to use these people to take power.

They care about power. They care about money. They are using the Far Right as their means to gain more. That is what the Iraq war was all about. It had nothing to do with christianity, it had to do with money. Taking money from tax payers and Iraq and giving it to companies like Halib. The Far Right has no power, only those who use it for their own selfish gains. The Far Right was willing to go along with the ride. They were willing to sell out their very own beliefs and use denial to block out the truth in order to have a voice that was not getting through otherwise.

This is why the "christians" do not look christian like.

When Rove/Bush/Cheney are taken down, the other corrupt people in the Government will go with them. Maybe then the Far Right will give up on their denial and go back to their christian ways.

On Edit: Roberts is an example. Do they really care about his political views? No, they care that he was there to help them in the recount and in getting them more power over those at GITMO. Just more evidence. The conservative part of him just gives them the ability to satisfy those they control.

[Wildewolfe]

14. What motivates the right...

... is the biggest spin machine the world has ever seen since Pravda.

The leaders of the repubs are not fools, they are intelligent and far more selective of their wording for effect than we are. They realized that unlike here at DU (where I suspect it's much much higher), the average american functions at about the 7th or 8th grade level, both in vocabulary and ability to analyize information. It's all in word selection and talking points.

Some examples...

They call it pro-life. Accurately it would be called pro-birth, but that's not how it's referred to. Now for thier purposes what a wonderful selection of words. If you are not pro-life aren't you then pro-death? Anti-Life? That is the immediate comparison that is done in the mind of the average american. Black and white images.

We call our side pro-choice. Again, it's a wonderful selection of words, what's the opposite?

Recently it's started to be referred to here as Pro-abortion and Pro-birth. Since the repubs don't subscribe to the pro-birth term us using the Pro-abortion term, regardless of accuracies and feelings, automatically causes a certain percentage of folks to automatically to the repub side.

The Patriot act. What a name. If you oppose it you are against patriotism! That one was a masterstroke of naming. It's still working against us today.

The rights entire selection of talking points are aimed to evoke emotional responses not on the positive side, but by the automatic comparison done by people on the negative side. It's calculated to grab the 8th grade level middle class church going christian, who spends so much time working they don't have time or energy to think critically about the issues themselves. It's designed to have people make a knee-jerk emotional response, and sadly it works far too well.

Bashing the Christian fundies (and I was raised by them) does as much good as trying to milk a bull. You might get something out, but it's not what you were after. A surprising amount of them, though, will sit down and talk, if given the opportunity and a neutral area. A lot of them, just by talking, begin to see the difference between what one side is actually saying and what the other sides talking points are presenting. Don't talk down to them, don't abuse them, both just drive them to the comfort of their existing belief structure. Discuss with them and some, though not all by any means, come to see beyond the blinders.

[Perky]

19. Right

Most fundies when you sit and talk with them will sheepishly admit that the motivation of the RW is about political power and had nothing to do with their CHisitianity.

It always fun when you get them to admit that their leadership's
s purported piety is identical--and I willgive you Biblical text after text to support this---to that of the pharisees.

The sad thing is that no one in the church is willing to take onthe Pharisees.

[Hamlette]

16. you should read up on fundamentalism, it is more than you think

fundamentalism is the greatest danger facing the world right now. Fundamentalists are not just bible thumpers, speaking up for what they think is god's word, they believe that it is their duty to make sure the world lives according to their rules which are rooted in the old testiment, for christians at least.

As an example of the effect they have on our lives now, Fundamentalist christians have led the fight against insurance companies paying for birth control pills. Not only do they believe in huge populations, they don't believe in women's rights. If a woman has no control over her reproduction, she is so much easier to control, keep her from leaving her husband etc.

They also want to dismantle the public education system. Rewrite the the texts for science and history. Can you imagine how backward this country would become if our history classes taught the planet was 6,000 years old? Taught that as fact?

The literature which would be banned under a fundamentalist system is breath taking in scope.

Some groups now what to rewrite the bible after learning King James was gay.

Think about the ramifications of that: they make up their own set of rules and enforce them on you. And me. And I can't argue with them because "god said".

Just think Taliban and you'll come to realize what life would be under the rule of fundamentalists.

We need every tool available to us to stop them.

There are many good books out there. It is VERY scary stuf.

[Perky]

18. That is their tactics to be sure

but those that so engage are in the "fight" for political benefits and selling books much more than they are in it for any Godly purpose.

Most fundies, call them "quiet fundies" would rather go out an preach tothe lost then engage in the blood sport of politics

[Hamlette]

21. that may be true but the people they support are destructive to MY

values. I have the right to speak out against them. It is the most undemocratic force in the world right now. Read Karen Armstrong's Battle for God or Fundamentals of Extremism by Kim Blaker. It will change your position on the "harmless" religious right.

[Perky]

24. oh wait

I never said they were harmelss... I am just objecting to the villification of their belief system underlying their tactics. alot of what I see here is mean spirted and equally "intolerant"

[Hamlette]

26. it is not a matter of tolerance, it is a matter of democracy

I do not care what they believe I care about what they do in furtherance of those beliefs. They support through votes any other means people who want to take away my freedom.

Since you agree they are not harmless, why can't I villify them?

I have no problem with garden variety christians who have no intention of enforcing their belief system on me. Fundamentalists by definition do intend to force their "laws" on me.

Fundamentalists are the greatest threat we face in the world right now. If you were to argue that the best way to defeat them is to not challenge them I would listen. But to require me to play nice with the Taliban for no other reason than some vague notion of tolerance is not in the cards.

[Rich Hunt]

28. it's not just fundamentalists

...everyone forgets about the malicious middle-class variant, which is Calvinism.

Everyone forgets Calvinism's stain on American society. That's because the affluent can get away with their brand of dogma.

[Hamlette]

30. there are fundamentalists in all religions n/t

[Redstone]

22. Nah, they do it because they're stupid and lazy;

and it's a bunch easier to just parrot what you're told to day than actually think about anything.

That's been my experience, anyway.

Redstone

[MissB]

23. Nice flamebait

:hi:

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