Did it ever occur to our soldiers in Iraq that we invaded a people who had

[bribri16]

not attacked us? We are in THEIR country? Just saw a short report and watched our soldiers berate an Iraqi citizen who was traveling along a road. The soldiers made snide remarks and made fun of the person. I guess if the cameras had no been on the soldier would have called the person some kind nasty name. It is just sickening how our young men and women have been so brainwashed and misled.

[canadianbeaver]

1. i saw that also.....

All I can do is cry.....Call me a whimp....Call me weak....I have love in my heart and soul and it hurts me to see any person doing that to another...

We are humans...we ALL bleed....we ALL feel....

this world is in so much pain right now....

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[jody]

2. OK but remember our troops are subject to US law aka UCMJ that

requires them to obey lawful orders of the Commander in Chief. Our do-nothing congress approved Bush's adventure in Iraq. The result is our troops could be severely punished if they do not obey.

I join you in deploring Dubya's preemptive invasion of Iraq but don't blame our troops.

[MADem]

5. Yep, the only thing that OCCURRED to our troops is that they got

...the shittiest set of orders in the world.

Service, like politics, is local. They have their mission, they have their orders, and they have their friends around them. That is the extent of their concern. To start thinking globally could get them killed--they simply have to focus on doing their time and going home. They want to keep their heads down, watch their buddy's back, hope their buddy is watching their back, and get the fuck out of there alive and in one piece.

[jody]

13. I agree. n/t

[bribri16]

11. I don't believe our troops are "ordered" to be so inhumane at a check n/t

[MADem]

14. A curious thing about societies in that part of the world

Authority is authority, absolute authority, in fact...and it is always met by the population with a mixture of dislike, distrust, even hatred, but most importantly, FEAR. But they tend not to question it, and if they do, they expect a harsh response. It is the same in Egypt, in Iran, in Kuwait, in Bahrain, in Iraq, in Turkey--it is part and parcel of an authoritarian structure to society. The mindset on the part of those in charge over there is "Give 'em an inch, they will take a mile" and it just does not happen. Be mean first, that seems to be the rule.

I rather suspect the rough treatment is more likely evidence of the troops "going native" than being deliberately cruel. Plus, it is hot, tempers are short, and the people are only slightly more afraid than the troops, who can't show their fear, lest they lose that elusive "authority."

[K-W]

17. So they brought it on themselves...

Youve taken blaming the victim to new heights.

[MADem]

19. Oh PLEASE--you DELIBERATELY misinterpret me and you ought to

be ashamed of yourself.

I've spent a shitload of my life in that part of the world. It is not America, but with open sewers, kebabs and weekends on Thursday and Friday--it is a different society. It is a different world. And if you don't believe what I am saying, I urge you to visit any of the 'dictator' nations in that end of the globe and get into a dustup with a cop or a soldier guarding a military facility, and see how patient they are with you--they do not brook ANY bullshit over there, and no one tries it. It is the same shit if you are in Egypt or Algeria--the society is hardwired to expect rough treatment from authority figures, and authority figures find that they get results using rough treatment--kindness IS interpreted as weakness. That is all I am saying, and you claim I am blaming the victim? Cut that shit out.

I am not saying it is "right" I am just saying that is the WAY IT IS. The Strongman culture lives on in that part of the world, and it seems to be taking hold here in the US as well.

[K-W]

21. I didnt misinterpret you one little bit.

Your argument is absurd on its face and repugnant.

[MADem]

22. Again, go there, live there, and then get back to me n/t

[K-W]

23. Luckily for me your argument was bogus on its face,

so I need not bother trying to verify your anecdotal evidence.

It's a bit convenient for you to take the stance that I cant criticize your argument unless I fly half-way around the world isn't it?

Variations of your argument have existed throughout the ages as an excuse for the cruelty of the 'civilized' when dealing with the 'barbarians' and it has never been valid.

Iraqi's do not provoke thier own mistreatment because they are used to being mistreated.

[MADem]

24. OK, fine, READ and learn

http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast_pub

If you don't believe what I say about life in that end of the world, maybe you will believe Human Rights Watch. Check out all their publications, they are full of stories of cops and military beating the shit out of people. Why? Because they CAN, because that is how authoritarian societies WORK. It ain't nice, it ain't pretty, it ain't fair...but it IS.

For the life of me I fail to understand why you BLAME me for telling you THE WAY THINGS ARE. I am not endorsing this treatment, all I am saying is that CRUELTY RULES in those societies; and in the short term, it has a certain brutal effectiveness, though it may be morally wrong.

So read, and learn.

I'm done.

[K-W]

25. That isnt the part of your argument that is bogus,

so Im not sure what you think you have proven.

Nobody is disputing the authoritarian history of the region.

I am disputing your repugnant reasoning that somehow the fact that Iraqi's have been abused in the past means they provoke American soldiers to abuse them now.

[MADem]

26. Try READING what I wrote

I DID NOT SAY THAT. I never said that, and you are dull of comprehension.

I said that it is likely that the US soldiers are taking a page from the Strongman book, where one uses repressive measures to control the population, and extracts compliance based on their history of dealing with authoritarian forces in the past.

It may not be morally right, but it has short term effectiveness.

[K-W]

30. Yes, its my fault you didnt make your point clear until now.

I said that it is likely that the US soldiers are taking a page from the Strongman book, where one uses repressive measures to control the population, and extracts compliance based on their history of dealing with authoritarian forces in the past.

The US didnt take a page from the Strongman book, the US has written entire chapters of the Strongman book. The US military doesnt need to take lessons from anyone on how to be authoritarian or brutal.

[MADem]

32. You are just looking for an argument, WHY, I have no idea

And if you do not think the Strongman book was written in the Middle East I cannot help you. Those authoritarian societies and cultures predate our young country by many, many years.

Enough. You don't have the background, obviously.

[K-W]

34. Lol, yah the rest of the world was one big birthday party.

While the middle east was the only place where brutality and violence ruled.

I dont have backround? Right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. No not quite until the Age of Enlightenment Europe was

ruled the same way, and continued to be ruled that way in some cases until fairly recently.

The idea of natural Rights for ALL the people is a very recent phenomena 17-18th century... and we are still in diapers as a country

By the way, my background is in US History, (MA) and I have lived (grew up) in a fairly repressive society, where you NEVER gave the cops lip, and it was not in the Middle East either. Actually it was not taht represeive but far less free than the US, until somewhat recently.

[K-W]

41. Indeed.

But that didnt stop them from wageing extremely brutal foriegn policy.

My point is that our military isnt brutal because it is in a region with a history of brutality. Our military is brutal because it is a military occupying force and would be brutal even if it had replaced the 100 year rule of the fairy princess of marshmellows.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I'll have to ask the obvious question

have you ever served in uniform anywhere in the world? I ask for a very simple reason, until you do, you really are missing the dynamic here, fully missing it. And no before you say it, I am not justifying it, but you want to change it, we first have to get out, but then we need to hold those who give the orders, not the low buck private responsible.

Leadership flows down...

And a war of occupation is brutal, and that area of the world IS brutal, has been brutal for the last 5,000 years. So the troops may be going native, that is part of it... but there is more to it

[K-W]

50. How is that even a relevant question?

And a war of occupation is brutal, and that area of the world IS brutal, has been brutal for the last 5,000 years. So the troops may be going native, that is part of it... but there is more to it

No, that is not a part of it. The concept of US soldiers going native is absurd.

Our forces are brutal because they are an occupying military who controls Iraq by force. And that wouldnt be any less the case if Saddam had been a benevolent ruler.

Are you really going to support the argument that the our military learned to be brutal from the middle east? Does that theory really fit in with the history of our foriegn policy?

[reBel_gyrl]

29. Now we're fighting among OURSELVES?!?

This is not a good sign people.

I believe MADem, I have heard and read that power does rule with an iron fist, if you will, in places like that. It's true, and crappy. Part of what makes America America is that our governing bodies and "peacekeepers" (namely, our police) do NOT treat us that way. We have a right that does not exist elsewhere, we are innocent until proven guilty. (Or were, before the Patriot Act) Try finding that kind of "honor system" in place when you get arrested in any other part of the world.

Now as for our service people, I don't think they went to Iraq for any reason other than they were told to, and they believed, at least in part, that they were doing something right and "noble". The many people that file for "conscientious objection" are dishonorably discharged at least, and some are even arrested. Check out
http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/messages/2629/2026290.html for just one story.

[K-W]

33. So what?

What does the authoritarian history of the region have to do with US brutality?

Nothing. Thats what.

The US rules with an iron fist because it is an occupying force and can rule no other way. This is why both the US and dictators are brutal. The US is not brutal because dictators were brutal.

[MADem]

38. No, I'm not fighting, truly

I'm being deliberately misinterpreted because someone is spoiling for a fight for some reason, and I apparently am the designated punching bag. I have relatives and friends from that end of the world who literally tremble in the presence of police or even security guards, even here in the good ole US of A. It is a different mindset over there, there ain't no Officer Friendlies!! The only cop you smile at and joke with is the one you bribe each week to make sure your house won't get broken into (seriously--and don't forget his payment, and his Ramadan gift of one month's bribe, either!).

I feel sorry for the kids who are over there now--all they are doing is trying to stay alive, and trying not to show fear. That is why they are acting like horses' asses, not because they are by nature or instinct mean kids. The tactics they are using may not be nice, they may not be right, but they are the best they can come up with. They believe they stand a better chance of staying alive by brooking no nonsense, and being callous.

They should be in college, or out on a date, but instead, they are baking in 120 degree heat toting 40 lbs of crap, scared shitless and trying to act tough...it sucks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. the only cop you smike is the one you bribe

how fucking true.... heck to this day when parents come visit they do buy even clothes for the cop who does security around the block....

What is worst this is not even the ME.

Some folks truly have no idea how must of the world truly works

[MADem]

45. Your parents are no fools!!!

They are looking out for your interests with their gifts!

One good thing about the US is that bribery is not quite as prevalent at the local level...of course, in the corridors of power, though, I guess all bets are off!

[K-W]

42. I am not spoiling for a fight.

I disagree with you.

The suggestion that our forces have been corrupted by the region shows remarkable niavete about the nature of our forces.

[The Stranger]

35. The troops are not immune from all responsibility.

The actions described were not required of them, and more and more revelations are coming to light of atrocities some troops have committed.

They simply cannot be declared immune from responsibility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. No but leadership comes from the top

and right now your civilian leadership is quite broken

[The Stranger]

39. Agreed, but too often posters appear in a thread declaring troops to be

above reproach, or immune from any responsibility because of the lack of leaders, and that really cannot continue to go unaddressed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Ok lets put it this way

the responsibility of an E-2 who knows only who to say yes Sir, NO Sir, six bags full, is far less even legally (none were prosecuted after WW II, look it up), than an E-6 who should know better, or the 0-1 who should know better

The problem is that troops need good officers who care for them and about them... I fear we are laking this, and many of our platoon and company commanders are there to stamp their war card, get as many shiny awards as they can and move on, careerist truly. So those officers will not do their job, after all a small scandal in the unit will kill your career, ask Lt Calley how his career went...

So I am not justifying the troops, but know the reality of it...

Also our current CIVILIAN leadership has encouraged violations right and left, why they don't want them photos and why the highest ranking person prosecuted has been a sergeant (who should have faced the music he was high enough in the food chain to know better) this will not change, in any way until Captains, Colonels and Generals face the music, not to mention a Sec Def or two, or even a President.

Now the troops screaming... does not surprise me at all... they are trying to stay alive, and come home and deal with the shit later on.

(For the record I was an officer in somebody else's army, and my husband retired as a USN Chief... so we have an idea how this works. My job to enforce the Geneva Convention as I was a medic, it gets complicated)

[MADem]

48. Undelicately said, the term is

"The shit rolls downhill!" (Your husband will have heard that one, I am sure!).

Leadership surely is the key--anyone who is in a position of responsibility and authority, who does not care for his or her subordinates, is a shitty leader. Your crew always comes first, and if you are senior, it is your job to watch their collective backs, fight their battles up the chain, and never let them down. It's why there are a few extra bucks in the paycheck...plus, it's the only thing that is right.

I was always a proponent of civilian control of the military, but I swear, after all these years of the chimp, I could almost change my mind (not quite, we aren't Turkey, yet!). It is so ironic that the few checks and balances even heard in the Pentagon are coming from the MILITARY end of the spectrum, at the senior officer level (there is a cadre of senior military leaders who are so bullshit at monkeyboy they could just be tempted to go public--or start leaking like sieves). Of course, the four star turnover is about 25% per annum, so chimpy is working hard to promote the crazy bastards who share his warped worldview into those slots, and shove aside any normal types trying to come up -- problem is, his picks are not the sharpest knives in the uniformed drawer, and it is starting to show. We need the best and brightest, not the bootlickers...they sure as hell won't look out for the troops, they're too busy kissing ass.

Our only hope could end up being the career civil servants who have made their reputations keeping their heads down and doing the slogging, highly technical, long-term crap work, and steering clear of the politics. A lot of those guys who are assistants to the political appointees got their start as far back as Carter, and many really earned their SES pay doing heavy lifting during Clinton.

Something's gotta give...these poor kids over in the sandbox who make less than clowns in NYC spend on PARKING every month need to come home, and get their heads screwed back on, and try to go forward with their lives.

[Booster]

3. There are 3 very young people I know who say "I'd go over there

and fight" and every time they say this, I say "why would you want to go to a foreign country and kill the people who live there, who have done absolutely NOTHING to us". They always just shrug their shoulders because they don't have an answer to the question. Sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. That is becasue our culture GLORIFIES war

and martial deeds, and hey it is just like X-Box, didn't you know that

[Booster]

20. I think you're right on about X-Box. These young people don't

even follow politics, but they want to kill somebody. Sad.

[bvar22]

46. Young people wanted to go to war and kill LONG before X-Box!

:patriot:

[Mari333]

4. in the words of my stepson when he returned from Iraq

"this isnt a war,its an occupation."

[mmonk]

15. Exactly

but there is some resistance. It's a disgusting drip drip drip of wasted lives in the long run.

[w8liftinglady]

28. My son still can't talk about what he does over there

Mind you,his "official" duty is to repair heavy vehicles.
He told me once"don't worry,mom-we aim low at the kids" when I asked him about guard duty.It broke my heart.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It is not that

just like Nam, that kid may be carrying a weapon.

Remember the troops are not there to make bush richer (side effect), They are not there for mom, apple pie and the American Dream. They are there for each other, and they are there to bring each other home.

This is the hardest to understand, and you truly have to be there, done that, to understand what is going on... and it is not brainwashing, the dehumanizing is needed for that troops to be able to cope after the fact... problem is it is not 100% effective, thank goodness... but remember, they are there for each other, not you, not me, not George.

This is way suporting the troops in tangible ways is SO CRITICAL... and bumper stickers are not enough... but I know you alraedy knew that.

[bribri16]

12. This wasn't a kid. it was an old man who obviously spoke no English.

[MADem]

16. Yeah, but it could be an old man, dying of cancer

...whose namesake grandson is being held by some clown who has told him to blow up that checkpoint or the kid gets it. You just NEVER KNOW, and you can NEVER TRUST ANYONE. If you value your life, that is. And even if you don't especially value your own life, you value the lives of your buddies.

There is no easy way to say this: if those guys let down their guard for a second, they could come home in one of Porgie's 'personnel transfer tubes.' You gotta be an absolute bastard to stay alive.

It dehumanizes them as much as the locals, and they know it. But they just want to get through their tour, get home alive, and hopefully deal with the baggage later.

[bpilgrim]

51. "You gotta be an absolute bastard to stay alive." - nonsense

it only makes the situation WORSE - sure you gotta be suspicious but that doesn't mean you gotta be loud and obnoxious in fact that will probably get you killed even quicker.

peace

[JohnyCanuck]

7. Nasty name calling is the least of it

How can the US ever win, when Iraqi children die like this?

by Robert Fisk

<snip>

"It was three-thirty in the morning and they were all asleep, Yassin and his friends Fahed and Walid Khaled. There was an American patrol outside and then suddenly, a Bradley armoured vehicle burst through the gate and wall and drove over Yassin. You know how heavy these things are. He died instantly. But the Americans didn't know what they'd done. He was lying crushed under the vehicle for 17 minutes. Um Khaled, his friends' mother, kept shouting in Arabic: "There is a boy under this vehicle."

<snip>

"The Americans came back with an officer two days later," Selim al-Sammerai continues. "They offered us compensation. I refused. I lost my son, I told the officer. 'I don't want the money - I don't think the money will bring back my son.' That's what I told the American." There is a long silence in the room. But Selim, who is still crying, insists on speaking again.

"I told the American officer: 'You have killed the innocent and such things will lead the people to destroy you and the people will make a revolution against you. You said you had come to liberate us from the previous regime. But you are destroying our walls and doors.'"

I suddenly realise that Selim al-Sammerai has straightened up on his seat and his voice is rising in strength. "Do you know what the American said to me? He said, 'This is fate.' I looked at him and I said, 'I am very faithful in the fate of God - but not in the fate of which you speak.'"

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=22336&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[mshasta]

31. for the americans money...

is the answer to murder, humiliation, occupation, suffering....

[atreides1]

9. To be fair

Not all military personnel drink the kool-aid, the majority actually believe that they are doing their duty and "protecting" our way of life.

Reality doesn't have much of a place in the military, at least not at this point in time, and we can never be sure if it will play any part in the lives of the men and women in uniform.

It could be that since the troops can't make comments against those who are truly responsible for where they are at, they direct their anger at the Iraqi people. If they could say what they wanted they would be court martialed, the Iraqis can't do that.

But the Iraqis who are ridiculed by US troops will remember that they were insulted and this will give another recruit to the insurgents.

Everytime the US military raids a house in the middle of the night, shoots into a crowd of people they "suspect" of being the enemy, or
humiliates a father in front of his children, one more insurgent has been recruited.

The other part of the problem is that the American education system for the most part teaches nothing about respect for other cultures and their way of life. The Christian fanatics often refer to Muslims
as evil, some whites will call them "sand niggers", and those whose
own ancestors were either Hispanic, Black, Asian, or even Hawaiians,
have forgotten that they too were once considered to be lower then
an animal, yet they will in some cases join right in with the humiliation of the Iraqi people.

Someone needs to remind those troops that the reason they are there and not at home can be traced to the White House and the U.S. Capitol
Building. It was the politicians who voted to get them killed and maimed, who are doing little to nothing to get them out of the crap hole that they've been dumped in. And let's not forget the civilians
who truly support them by insisting that they stay until the job is done.

So until they get told the truth, they will continue to take out their frustration on those who are closest to them, the people of Iraq. And the insurgents will continue to kill U.S. troops!!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. So true

[MADem]

18. Actually, I do not think the troops need to be reminded of anything

The CHIMP though, needs to be reminded that he started a war based on bullshit and outright lies.

The troops just need to be brought home, given counselling and medical screening, and then try to get over this mess and on with their lives.

[kliljedahl]

27. It's OK, he didn't understand English anyway.

We all know it's gawds language, so it's his own fault for being a Heathen.
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:



Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Modem Butterfly]

47. When you wear the Green Tuxedo...

...you dance to the tune that's played.

My partner was in the Army during the last Gulf war. That was what the guys in his unit used to say to each other while waiting for the orders.

[MADem]

49. Hahahahaha!!!

The Green Tuxedo!!!!!!!!!!!

That is a new one on me, and I love it!

Military humor does strike a certain chord, especially when it deals with the average servicemember getting crapped on, jerked around, or somehow inconvenienced!

[I Have A Dream]

52. I'm sure that there are many other troops that would never do this.

Our soldiers are like the rest of our country -- some of them are going to be idiots, and some of them are going to be heroes in the purest most profound sense of the word.

We just need to make sure that we don't prejudge all soldiers by a few.