For all of you insisting upon crosses at "Arlington West"...

[Marnieworld]

I just want to point out that there aren't crosses marking the graves at Arlington "East". Do you get it? So all of the posts in Modem Butterfly's thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4367516&mesg_id=4367516

about this issue miss the point entirely. If the memorial/protest is supposed to represent a Crawford version of the Arlington cemetary than it should actually look like it. I have googled repeatedly today for images of Arlington and I have only seen rows and rows of white tombstones.

Of course I think the destruction of the memorial is beyond disgusting and reprehensible. I am all for defying that hate with replacing what is destroyed.

Have I been to Crawford or the protest or do I intend to go? Unfortunately I cannot and because of that I agree that it's not up to me and I'll support whatever those brave amazing people in Texas decide to do in response.

Yet, I have to defend the sentiment that it would be nice to have the memorial be non-sectarian in nature. It's not enough to say there are alternatives for other religions because it doesn't include those who weren't religious. It's such a slippery slope because how do you represent faithfully another's thoughts and beliefs who is dead. My atheist sister's Catholic funeral comes to my mind.

That was the point, I believe, of the MB thread. I just wanted to point out to those justifying religious symbols that it isn't even a representation of what it is supposed to be representing. Heaven forbid a non-religious person points out that not everyone has a religion.

[GOPisEvil]

1. The crosses/crescents/stars are already made.

To change the style might be an expensive proposition.

[jayfish]

2. Self Delete

I cannot confirm the pic is from Arlington and some have said it is not. My apologies.

Jay

[benburch]

4. Yep!

I have seen LOTS of crosses at Arlington and similar military cemeteries.

[Marnieworld]

5. Guess I did

It's not exactly the typical view and I only recall seeing the basic tombstones when I visited but that was years ago. My point is the best choice is the most generic. Tombstones are pretty powerful symbols too.

[jayfish]

9. It's Ok...

unfortunately, Arlington is a BIG place.

Jay

[Finder]

20. Your photo is not of Arlington. n/t

[titoresque]

6. That's what I thought too

I have not actually seen one with tombstones.
I have obviously missed the debate about crosses and religion.
Did this wack job try to justify his vandalism with some lame religious reasoning?

[Dr.Phool]

7. That cemetary is in France

Arlington has plain white tombstones.

[jayfish]

I'll Re-check

Jay

[Marnieworld]

14. I thought that was in France too

Normandy and the scenes from Saving Private Ryan come to mind.

[Finder]

23. Here is the snopes article...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/cemetery.asp

[Walt Starr]

3. Look on the markers themselves...

[Marnieworld]

8. And that's a good place for it

We all have our sensitivities.

[ohio_liberal]

11. And there are different symbols for different religions

or so I hear.

[mondo joe]

46. On the markers are DIFFERENT icons.

I don't care about this enough to make a stink. The crosses might even be more effective anyway.

But the markers don't all look the same with regard to what's on them.

[Cleita]

10. Military cemeteries use little white crosses. At least the ones I

have seen. I think if you go to the nearest VA you will see their cemetery is rows of little white crosses.

[Modem Butterfly]

15. Here's the VA webpage

http://www.cem.va.gov/hmgen.htm

[Marnieworld]

21. Thank you and it's a headstone not a tombstone

How could Forget that?

[Cleita]

49. I already looked it up. I am familiar with the VA cemetery

in Los Angeles, and I remember seeing all the little white markers in neat row after row. I haven't been to LA in 15 years so maybe my mind changed them into crosses because that's what they look like from a distance.

However, who cares if in an exhibit they use crosses? This isn't a government exhibit. There is no issue of separation of Church and State. It's really a matter of making something recognizable. I think little sticks wouldn't have quite the same effect. I understand your desire to be free of religion, but when you demand that others be free of religion, who want religion, then you become the as dogmatic as any religious fundamentalist.

[stevedeshazer]

12. My dad was a WW II vet, the VA paid for his headstone w/ a cross.

Sorry, you're wrong on this one.

[Marnieworld]

13. See post #3

That's a tombstone not a cross. Rows and rows of them. I hate war.

[johnnie]

16. You are missing the point completely

Arlington West was brought to Crawford by the people who dedicate their time, money and effort in support of the fallen troops. This was done on their own and it is "THEIR" way of supporting Cindy.

Read a bit about these people and let them do their thing.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Arlington_west_121003.htm

From the site:
"This bunch learned the hard way. Back then, they answered The Call, whetherthey liked it or not. Some went to war because they knew what they werefighting for, and knew they were needed.

More recently, some were lied to so the military could get control of their bodies, if not their minds. They did what they had to do. Some came home on stretchers; some were spat upon.

Now, they’re doing something else here. . .because they have to. No one tells them to. They ask nothing in return for what they do.

Just a handful of guys who put in long, long hours of their own volition. No manual, no chain of command. No fund-raisers. No posing. .

They pay for almost everything out of their own pocket and don’t ask for a receipt.

If something needs to be done, someone does it. No one gives orders. Conscience is command.

Every Day of Rest since November, some of them get up before dawn. They haul the crosses from storage to Stearns Wharf, then they set the grid, carefully aligning and planting the memorials in their stark, ever-growing rows, before people waken and stroll out for Sunday brunch. If one of them can’t make it, or can’t stay through the long Sunday hours, no sweat, no anger."

[Marnieworld]

25. I get the point about the memorial

Like I said I can't really judge because these people are walking the walk and I am just talking the talk in comparison. Each whatever represents someone who has died because of this disgusting, evil, illegal war that I did protest before it even began.

My point was in response to another thread when people were inflexible to the idea that perhaps crosses weren't generically representing everyone and that ideally it would be nice if it could. More ideally it would be nice if these people had no reason to protest at all, their children were safe and whole and we could all be enjoying our lives instead of meeting here on this board to discuss all of this horror. Since we don't have the ideal situation and mothers are forced to camp in the August desert the existing memorial is just fine because the real point is to visually represent the fallen. I only involved myself because I saw MB get attacked in a way that I thought wasn't fair is all.

[ohio_liberal]

17. They aren't just using Crosses at "Arlington West"

There are crescents for Muslims, Star of David, etc. It probably wasn't feasible to try to stick flat-bottomed tombstones into the ground.

edited to add:

"Arlington West" is owned by the LA chapter of Veterans for Peace. Some of it was donated when Cindy came to Crawford. Cindy Sheehan had nothing to do with the creating of it. Please, stop nitpicking.

[titoresque]

18. I don't get this

what is the big debate about here? I'm lost because as I see it, if all they had out there were 1,800 pairs of boots...the statement is NOT lost, and the loving sentiment is still the same. Parents would be putting flowers down in front of boots. It's a memorial and there are alot of different ways to display a tasteful memorial.

What is the big deal? Crosses? Tombstones? sounds like too many cooks in the kitchen!

[Al-CIAda]

61. "sounds like too many cooks in the kitchen!" -yes sir! nt

[WilliamPitt]

19. Well

Consider the fact that creating 2,000 crosses is a hell of a lot easier than creating 2,000 tombstones. They are more portable, easier to transport, and grab the eye.

I appreciate the sensitivity of our aetheist brothers and sisters, but I also know that this memorial has been maintained by the families of soldiers who have been killed in Iraq. To my way of thinking, they can bloody well make it any way they like.

Furthermore, in my opinion, attacking the basic premise of the memorial on the day it was destroyed is in remarkably bad taste.

Finally, the poster who originally put up the comments got all bent out of shape when people disagreed with her, and accused some of us of trying to "silence dissent." That's just nonsense of the purest ray serene, a boring rendition of the DU Double Blind that says you can disagree, but I can't disagree with your disagreement.

[johnnie]

22. Will

Check out the link I posted above. It tells a lot about the crosses and who makes them.

[Modem Butterfly]

24. Actually, I took exception to your personal comments, Will Pitt

And I invited you to put me on ignore. I don't appreciate the characterization of my thread as "attacking the basic premise of the memorial". Instead, I suggested that when the memorial is put up, a non-exclusionary symbol should be used for everyone, and made several suggestions. Finally, I really don't appreciate you dragging this into another thread.

[WilliamPitt]

26. Eh?

This other thread was specifically started to talk about your thread. Your thread is linked in the OP. I dragged nothing.

I couldn't give a fig what you appreciate or not. To my mind, that's what you did.

[titoresque]

31. did someone say

specifically that they felt shunned by this memorial?
I havent personally lost a husband,sister,mother,father or child but
for me personally .......that would be the very least of my concerns!
It's a memorial! For the dead! Not a clique! I can't believe anyone out there with a name to put on WHATEVER would be bitching about what "shape" the memorial would be.

[Dorian Gray]

52. Exactly!

I don't get those people who are nitpicking about being "left out!" of the memorial. Who cares! The crosses are symbolic in this case, and they represent the dead.

[DeepModem Mom]

27. Thanks, Will. I will probably delete this post myself when calmer, but....

I'm afraid our atheist friends (I myself occasionally attend one of the more liberal Protestant churches, and consider myself a "seeker" after some kind of spirituality) -- IMO -- exhibit the same kind of moral superiority they so object to from Christians. I would not classify myself as an atheist, yet I am a fierce liberal, with an IQ I'd match with that of most anybody.

And I personally am as tired of having atheism thrown in my face as right-wing Christianity.

[Marnieworld]

34. Have I done this?

Thrown something in your "face" but just seeking a spiritual neutrality in things. It always seems like the fairest choice to me.

[DeepModem Mom]

44. Mine is a straw-and-camel's-back reaction, not personally...

aimed at you. Sorry, Marnie.

[Modem Butterfly]

37. I really don't see how suggesting a non-exclusionary memorial...

... is throwing atheism in your face.

[DeepModem Mom]

45. See post 44. Sorry, Modem B. nt

[Bridget Burke]

47. Please set up a non-exclusionary memorial.

But let the people who set up the crosses, etc., continue as they wish.

[Modem Butterfly]

50. No one is trying to stop them

Unless posts on DU count.

We have a small memorial at our home that is non-exclusionary, BTW.

[Bluerthanblue]

53. maybe redundant, but a 'cross' is also a 'sword'

and any 'symbol' can offend- a 6 pointed star means different things to different people, a 5 pointed star can mean the female masons, or a wicca context.
hell, there's a swastika on one of the most historical buildings in our capitol- a symbol that CAME to represent Nazi's- but began as something much different.
There is also a woman here in NH who has painted american flags on bricks to represent sort of miniature coffins, and another with a boot or shoe. Our womens network uses t-shirts to represent those of us who are survivors or victims of rape, domestic abuse and csa.

A cross doesn't mean christian. it pre-dated crucifixion.

(Watch the mists of Avonlea, and you'll see quite a different view)

A rose is a rose those sticks are only 'symbols' of what is irreplacable, and un-reproducable. THINGS, not people.

Can't we come together on anything??? Tolerance means 'giving' alittle room- Now, if they had the body of Christ attached to them i'd be in complete agreement- but i don't see them as exclusive, and i'm sorry that you do.

[mondo joe]

48. By "thrown in your face" do you mean a call for religion-neutrality?

That's not really an atheist thing. It's a way of respecting all religions and the non religious as well.

[DeepModem Mom]

54. My point, which is not particularly linked to this discussion...

is that I think some atheists sometimes do not realize that they can have a heavy-handed, intolerant, morally superiority attitude that, to me, is similar to that of fundamentalist Christians.

[mondo joe]

58. Understood. Thanks. n/t

[Marnieworld]

30. I don't think I attacked the premise of the memorial

Gee I really hope that I didn't because that's not where I'm coming from at all. The premise is/was to use symbols to represent each of the fallen. I agree that it could be boots or helmets or whatever just to have a symbol for each fallen soldier. The premise that they are individuals that cannot be ignored and I appreciate everyone involved in making it happen in Santa Barbara or Crawford. I'm just ignorant of the logistics but I don't see how headstones couldn't be just as easy but that's my bias I guess. I wept when I first saw the pictures of the memorial and I sobbed when I saw the destruction. I think my thinking was more in a theoretical sense than this particular memorial. I guess I should just shut the fuck up.

[WilliamPitt]

40. I was not referring to you

I referred to the post you referenced in your OP.

Yet again, however, I have the second person on this issue get disagreed with and respond by saying "I guess I should just shut the fuck up" or words to that effect. That's weak and stupid, in my opinion. Game up and disagree back, argue with me, make your point. Don't pull this crap. And no, I won't put you on ignore, either.

Yeesh.

[Avalux]

42. Thank you Will.

And let me add my thoughts on this.

Camp Casey and its inhabitants set up those crosses, Star of Davids and crescent moons. They chose to put them there and Cindy Sheehan hasn't objected - it's her show. Arguing about whether or not they should put them back up because they aren't appropriate for atheists really isn't cool - there are more important things to argue about.

I am not a religious person, but I was there, and I walked down that road and read every single name. I cried. I could care less if the names were written on crosses or plain old boards. It's what they represent - soldiers who have died in Iraq - that matters.

[Cleita]

28. The crosses were moved from Arlington "West" in California to

Crawford by the veterans association that built them. The exhibit has been around even before Cindy started her vigil. Even if not exactly like Arlington, they are symbolic of it, hence the name.

The point is that they aren't a religious statement and even if they were, it's not an official statement so there is no separation of church and state issue here. Sometimes people get so heated up over religion, when they are atheists, that they forget that people have as much a right to practice religion as others do to be free of religion.

My only objection to religion is when it starts to creep into my government. Otherwise, I say live and let live.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

29. These threads are akin to an ANSWER rally.......

......focus, folks......FOCUS!

[blondeatlast]

43. ...

:rofl:

[RoyGBiv]

32. FYI ...

The standard "generic" tombstones have a religious symbol on them, usually either a cross or a Star of David. Some have none at all, typically if the soldier's religious affiliation was none or could not be determined.

The vast majority, however, do have a religious symbol of some sort.

Examples:

[LittleClarkie]

33. Crosses, tombstones, what's the damn difference

if that isn't the most irrelevant thing I've heard so far.

[titoresque]

38. ditto!

WTF?!

[mondo joe]

51. Do you have a religion?

If so, do you care about it?

[LittleClarkie]

57. This isn't about religion, it's about the dead, and representing them.

Crosses. Tombstones. Little flowers.

WHO CARES!!!

As Bill Clinton would say, "It's the soldiers, stupid."

[mondo joe]

60. If I were a Jew or Muslim I might be very troubled by a crucifix used

to represent my child - particularly if I cared about my religion.

As it is, I'm willing to let these crosses go without any complaint on my part because they're effective.

But what you might consider is that for some people this is a really offensive thing, and some of those people might even be mourning families themselves.

[LittleClarkie]

62. Anyone here heard the Car X commerical?

Where all the lawyers take apart the jingle until it's unrecognizable and perfectly PC?

That's what this reminds me of.

Let's not do anything, okay? God, Allah, or Jesus forbid we should offend with our actions.

Best off we stay at home.

[mondo joe]

63. Since you have trouble reading, let me again state for clarification

that I would not complain or object to the crosses. I think they're effective.

That doesn't mean I'm insensitive to the fact that this is a serious matter for a lot of people.

Did you read where I said LET'S NOT DO ANYTHING? Or even WE SHOULDN'T DO THIS?

If you did, please point out where I did say such things. Oops, you can't, because I didn't.

Another stupid straw-man.

[KamaAina]

35. At Punchbowl, the symbols are carved into the stones

At the true "Arlington West", the National Memorial Cemetery of the Pacific at Punchbowl in Honolulu (you've seen it in the opening sequence to "Hawaii Five-O"), the various religious symbols are carved into the stones below the name and dates, rather than having the stones shaped like crosses or whatever.

Also, along with the crosses and stars (very few crescents), there are a hell of a lot of dharma wheels representing Buddhism up there. Think about the "Go For Broke" 442nd. Makes you wonder how we got to a place where our own Lt. Gov. Aiona (R-Obviously) said, in public, "Hawaii belongs to Jesus". :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Blue_In_AK]

36. IMO, this is a ridiculous debate...

everyone knows what the crosses/crescents/stars of David stand for.

[gkhouston]

41. Well, it *is* ridiculous, but that isn't why

has anyone on this thread lifted a finger to create this memorial? Is anyone here actually going to do anything to sustain it? If you want something different, get off your ass and make one yourself -- or do you think our dead soldiers can withstand only so much honoring and remembrance?

[Blue_In_AK]

59. I agree with that...

A lot of time and effort went into creating these memorials as they stood. Debating their "form" is rather counterproductive.

[Al-CIAda]

65. The entire thread is rediculous on many levels. nt

[ibegurpard]

39. blah, blah, blah...

blah.

[marions ghost]

55. Seems what we have going here

is the old debate about "literal" meanings and symbolic meanings.
There is no productive point in taking this so literally or so personally (in that the project is not how you would have done it...). I think we can all agree that the project is not in the realm of "offensive." There has been an attempt made to identify those of non-Christian religions. This argument exists in the realm of "ideally...wouldn't it be NICE if....?" That's all. There Are FAR greater issues at stake here.

FOR THE LITERAL MINDED--here are some rough stats:

A large majority of those killed in Iraq DID call themselves Christians (70%).
Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews are each less than 1%.
The significant minority specifying themselves as "no preference" (25%) probably wouldn't have a preference about this either.

I don't think these guys were checked in according to religious affiliation when they got to heaven.
Can we keep the BIG (the REALLY big) picture about this?

[Lars39]

56. Not all of the troops were represented.

There was only room for 1000(?).

[marions ghost]

64. good point

which makes it all the more a symbolic effort rather than literal --

(again it would be "nice' if everyone were represented --so who can go to Crawford with 1000 more crosses?) mg

[deadparrot]

If the families of those whose names are on the crosses have a

problem, any problem, with the memorial, then I would hope that their wishes would be respected, and the problem fixed.

If/When a loved one comes forward upset about the crosses, I would hope that the complaint would be taken into account and corrected.

However, AFAIK, no one has had such a complaint. So for those of us who have no personal interest in the matter, I'd say we should respect the hard work undertaken by Cindy and company, at least until someone with a complaint goes to the lengths she has.

[QC]

66. How many threads does this very same, identical subject require?

[Moderator]

67. Locking.

Considering how upset everybody is about the incident at the moment, this discussion might be better left to another day.