We were tossed out of class today for not standing for the pledge!

[Idioteque]

First Thread
Second Thread
Third Thread

Update Time!!!

The teacher called my friend and I into the hall after we didn't stand (the third student was already in the office).

She said "I thought you talked to Mr. Oberg yesterday?!? What did he say." Mr. Oberg is the biology teacher who was acting as assistant principal.

I told her that Mr. Oberg believed that she had mishandled the situation by writing a referral, although he said it would be more respectful to stand.

She was outraged, saying "That's not what Mr. Oberg said to me. It is disresectful not to stand. Don't you want to have manners?"

We informed her that we plan to pursue this cause to the fullest and that we filed an ACLU complaint against her. Her face turned red and she yelled "GO TO THE OFFICE!". So we did :).

We got to hang out with Mr Oberg again. He was very cool and fair with us, explaining that we were going to meet with the real Assistant Principal tomorrow and that we will probably be moving to a less fascist homeroom (not his words of course ^_^). Probably a good idea, seeing as the teacher said we are not welcome in her class unless we stand.

So tomorrow we will be meeting with the AP. This is probably the best chance to make our case. It is unfortunate that we have to change classes because the teacher has no respect for the rule of law.

I might start up a blog tonight detailing all of the events as they unfold. I'm still open to any advice you might be able to offer. Thanks for your support!

EDIT: Not only does our school have the #1 high school morning show in the nation, "Fast Forward", we also produce a saturday program on our local Fox network called "Fox 13 Magazine". I have friends who work on the shows and they are going to try to get us a news package. Let's hope it works out..

[Blue_In_AK]

1. Ideoteque, I've been following your Odyssey

Keep up the good work. You kids give me hope for the future.

[mzteris]

2. call the media

and let them in on this.....

How old are you guys?

Way to go for standing up - or not as the case may be :) - for your rights!

[Idioteque]

6. We are high school seniors...17 years old. n/t

[mzteris]

35. At least

get your highschool newspaper or tv program involved.

And I still say - CALL THE MEDIA!

My daughter started a whole brouhaha over GLBT support group "advertising" in her highschool newspaper that wound up at the School Board - and on the news! (Smart girl :) ) - because she wouldn't let it drop.

Alas, the school board still banned the GLBT ads, but the "church" ads got booted, too.

Anyway - good for what you guys've done so far. Gives me hope for the future of this country.

[5thGenDemocrat]

53. I went into the Army three months after I turned 17

Don't let anyone tell you that you don't know what's going on or that you shouldn't give the "responsible" adults a certain ration of shit.
At 17, you know more than even you think you do (and I think you're onto something here -- I stopped standing for the pledge when I was about 13 (c 1970). It pissed the North Junior High administration off no end -- but both my pinko liberal mom and, for that matter, my Republican dad stood up for my right to do it).
Add my congratulations to the stack. Go get 'em!!
John
Good to see someone's raising some hell out there somewhere.

[FreedomAngel82]

59. What I think

is true republicans will support your right. The people today who call themselves republican but are so hateful aren't really republicans in my opinion.

[evilqueen]

69. Contact Current TV with your story too.

I'm sure they'd get involved and/or run your story.

[Hobarticus]

3. I predict a mass exodus from that class...

Anything to needle a teacher who flips a cork.

Good show!

[Ian David]

4. Dude, you rock! And your teacher is an asshole AND a fool

If this makes it to the papers and the other kids see a chance to "get their fifteen minutes," then there will be an epidemic of pledge refusals.

He should have just rolled his eyes and said, "Oh, fine. Just sit quietly until we're done."

:yourock:

I present to your teacher... The Giant Turd of Doom!

[Southpaw Bookworm]

25. OT

But what the hell is that thing, really?!

:scared:

[Ian David]

72. It's a giant turd. It nearly killed Superman...

[Richard Steele]

5. Some idiots never learn. That teacher is in for a BIG reality check!

Good move, getting the ACLU involved!
I really hope she loses her job; people like her shouldn't be teachers.

[Al-CIAda]

7. Ah, to be in H.S. again... good show, rebel. nt

[tavalon]

68. To be in high school again

Would be a huge nightmare for me. I suspected that the whole institution was fascist when I was there. Needless to say, I was told by older people that I would understand why things were the way they were when I was older. I'm much older now and guess what, the whole institution was, in fact, fascist.

I don't miss it one bit.

[brettdale]

8. Well Done

:yourock:

[Idioteque]

9. For those of you who want to know what other students think of the teacher

Rate My Teacher

[sdfernando]

18. Is that her name???

D. Dicus??? OMG!!! So appropriate!!

[librechik]

10. not a bad idea to call the local press, kiddo

just for practice!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. If I were still teaching,

you'd be welcome to sit. If anyone asked about it, I'd explain the First Amendment to them.

[Ian David]

15. I had one teacher who used to step out into the hall during the pledge

It took me a while to figure out just what he was doing.

[laylah]

12. There IS

hope for the future of our country! Good on you and your friend(s). Be proud, VERY proud.

Jenn

[Ian David]

13. I think your teachers may be more afraid of the press than The ACLU

See, once it makes the papers they may not want to back down, to avoid losing face. That means, they'll be forced to play it out to the last, expensive court case.

Just the mention that you've contacted someone in the media interested in the story, and that you've contacted The ACLU should do the trick.

Of course, if you want to back them into a corner and make them go to court (and possibly give you grounds to sue them) then you could go to the press sooner rather than later.

Also, if I remember correctly, you were already able to bring in documents illustrating legal precedent. Keep doing that.

[Iris]

14. What do manners have with saying a pledge to a flag?

What bullshit.

[Ian David]

19. "Why can't you just pledge to marry me and be faithful forever?"

"You want to be polite, don't you?"

Pledges mean something.

You don't take a pledge just to be "polite."

[Iris]

21. excellent point.

But, sadly, to people like this teacher, pledges don't mean anything - but conformity means everything.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. Yes

Pledges and flags are silly. What you should pledge to is the Constiution/Bill of Rights. That is where our freedoms are. Not some silly pledge or the flag. :eyes:

[0007]

16. My hat is off to you guys

[Gman]

17. Ah, nostalgia! I'm tickled pink to hear about you guys doing this!

I had the very same experiences in 1971 when I too refused to stand for the pledge. Somewhere in there, after the SCOTUS decision on prayer in public schools, I left the room during the "prayer". In 1970 (or maybe late 1969) I wore a black armband with my ROTC (mandatory) uniform for the very first Viet Nam moratorium day. I was suspended for the day!

Keep up the fight and remember: Question Authority!

[bluestateguy]

20. This really should be an open and shut case...

and as long as you don't disrupt others' right to say the pledge the teacher's actions here are a clear violation of the Supreme Court's 1943 ruling.

[Starone]

22. Back Your Cause Up

with the Supreme Court rulings regarding student and teacher rights to refuse to say the pledge; take in a copy of your state law; and face that AP like the fair-minded, intelligent, well-informed, students you are....and your homeroom teacher is not. As a teacher I can't imagine demanding such things from students in a classroom; using position to influence personal beliefs! Good job teaching her (and any others in your school) a great lesson about abuse of power and disrespect for individual choice.

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. IMO, you should call the press,

tell them your story, tell them about the ACLU complaint and tell them about your fascist teacher! Embarrass the hell out of her. RUN WITH THIS. The press will LOVE this story.

Good Luck! :yourock:

[anarchy1999]

24. An easy way to fix this. Stand up, don't cross your heart and keep your

mouth closed. Case closed.

[Richard Steele]

29. EASIER fix: Teacher starts OBEYING the law! Case already closed in 1943.

[mondo joe]

46. I can hardly think of a worse "fix". The law is on the side of these kids

-- they don't need to stand to "fix" anything.

[tavalon]

70. Easy, yes

But this kid has a very valid point of view and he is handling it appropriately.

Let's use Cindy Sheehan as an example. An easy way to fix this is for her to go back home and stop being a thorn in the side of this administration. Easy? yes. Right? I think not.

[WolverineDG]

26. This is ridiculous

I used to be a teacher. Even when I was a Republican, I knew that you couldn't force students to stand for the pledge. Some of them can't because of their religion. Each year, I had to explain to students why others weren't standing up & no it wasn't that they weren't patriotic, it was their religious beliefs & if they didn't want me to comment on THEIR religion, they shouldn't comment on others. "So if I don't want to stand & say the pledge, I don't have to?" "right." Funny, most kids still did anyway, once they learned I wasn't going to force them to do it.

dg

[Iris]

36. How do you know they were patriotic?

Just curious.

I have reservations now about standing for the pledge because I'm getting a little skeptical about what patriotism really is.

[WolverineDG]

45. i didn't

but the kids who did stand & were mad at the ones who didn't would always say "they need to be patriotic" because they had been told for years that it was patriotic to stand & say the pledge. i was simply pointing out the possibility that there were other ways to express your patriotism than standing up & reciting something you learned by rote. it was great to see them actually :think:

dg

[Iris]

47. dupe

Sounds like you were a good teacher.

[Iris]

49. Makes sense to me.

Sounds like you were a good teacher.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. I remember when

I was in tenth grade in a biology class one day a kid didn't stand up and say the pledge. The teacher freaked out but she didn't get him in trouble or anything like that. He was calm, cool and collected and explained he didn't have to do the pledge. Nobody else in the class seemed to care.

[Tigress DEM]

57. Patriotism = Love of and devotion to one's country...

or... love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it.

The flag is a symbol and for some that is a good enough reason to stand and salute those who have gone before us and forged the rights we enjoy with their sweat, tears and blood. Red for sacrifice, blue for honor, white for purity or truth.

And yet, some people reserve such devotion only to God and to them a country's flag is not God and therefore it would be a lessening of their faith to bow to the convention.

Me? I like my flag, I love my country. I make sacrifices - mostly sleep and money and time and sanity when I'm trying to talk sense into repubs.... and God has His own place in my life. Sometimes things like that come together personally for me, but I don't expect that everyone has to have my experience to be whole.

Yet what I love most about my country is it's committment to freedom and that doesn't only mean my freedom - it's about real freedom and real respect of others.

I think sometimes things have to get worse before we realize how good things really can be. I love my country more than ever and I treasure the fortitude of each person who stands and salutes in their heart the cause of freedom, even if they sit down in defiance to make it happen.

[Iris]

74. I'm glad there are people like you who feel this way, but

more and more, I see a lot of "patriots" who are racist and misogynistic. The way Cindy Sheehan is being treated by some people who claim to be patriotic is just one more example.

[Tigress DEM]

75. Well, I can say I'm a millionaire, but it doesn't make it so...

Therefore all these people who claim to be patriotic, but brutalize the very spirit of Democracy with their actions are either a little bit cracked or just mistaken. They think they know what patriotism is because they read it in their talking points, but by their actions they give patriotism a bad name.

[Iris]

76. That's a good point.

Now I can look at this a little differently!

[kbm8795]

27. I'd like to know where HER manners are. . .

this really is such an outrage. She is apparently mistakening her own political dogma for instructional professionalism.

The Board needs to take disciplinary action.

[KarenS]

28. ohhhhh Good for you !!

The only way to challenge this kind of mentality, is with the law & the facts on your side!! Do call your local press/tv station,,,,,

:applause:

[ThoughtCriminal]

30. An early experience - and a question

Second grade, early 60's in Alabama. I had a British teacher. When we said the pledge, she stood with us but did not put her hand over her heart or recite the pledge. Her explanation to us was an interesting lesson in itself.

I'm not suggesting this as a compromise, but the question might come up. Were you sent out for refusing to stand, or for refusing to recite the pledge? I'm not sure what the court rulings might say about that.

[Idioteque]

31. Refusing to stand. n/t

[ultraist]

33. The law states students cannot be forced to stand or recite the pledge

I wouldn't compromise. I think these young students are courageous for exercising their rights, despite the attempts, by an uninformed RW teacher, to oppress them.

[ThoughtCriminal]

38. A citation would be useful

They will probably need that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_vs._Barnette

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school

Bolding is mine. I think that what is needed here is a case or statute that specifically covers "standing", or equates being told to stand is equivalent to being forced to salute.

PS: I'm trying to be helpful, not argumentative here. They need to be prepared to make their case.

[ultraist]

48. There are other cases, such as the one Hamlette cited below

Hamlette is an attorney and offered to provide more cases.

You can search state statutes and case law for VA if you are looking for cases. ;)


There may even be something about this on the VA Board of Education site. Maybe I will look around a bit.


edit to add:
http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=17318&c=139

Virginia School Board Votes to Allow Students to Sit During Pledge of Allegiance

January 11, 2005

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: [e-mail]

Policy Change Brings School System to Compliance with Constitution, ACLU Says

RICHMOND, VA--Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia -- and based on recommendations from its own lawyers -- the Spotsylvania County School Board last night voted to remove a policy requiring students to stand during recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance.

"Not standing for the Pledge won’t win any school popularity contests," said ACLU of Virginia Executive Director Kent Willis, "but the same constitutional principle that protects this kind of expression also protects your right to possess and espouse the religious and political beliefs of your choice. I don’t think anyone wants to change that."

In a letter and legal memo sent last week, the ACLU warned school board members that students have a constitutional right both not to say the Pledge and to refuse to stand during recitations. Supervisors gave initial approval to change the policy in December, but were required to confirm that vote at its January 10 meeting in order for the policy to take effect.

The matter came to a head recently when a student at Ni River Middle School was told he must stand for the Pledge or be in violation of a 2002 policy requiring all Spotsylvania students to stand and place their right hand over their hearts during the daily recitation of the Pledge.
***

So, there you have it. Students have a Constitutional RIGHT to not stand. Any school board policy that contradicts this, is unconstitutional.

[ThoughtCriminal]

50. Thank you

:yourock:

[ultraist]

51. My pleasure.

[FreedomAngel82]

63. What was the explaination?

:shrug: I remember when I was in band whenever we were at a football game and we were the visiting team and the national anthem came up we just stud straight and didn't cross our hearts or anything like that. Out of habit I do that now days instead of just crossing my heart.

[Ian David]

32. If you want the ACLU to take action, don't just write or email-- CALL them

They get pretty swamped, but if you want to get their ear, pick up the phone and call.

[anarchy1999]

41. Every office I called in Texas last week said requests for aid had to

be faxed in or mailed, except for Houston. If you have contacts you have been working with it is easier to reach them and there are many at DU that have more than a few.

[Hamlette]

34. I missed your third thread, I'm a lawyer, you are COMPLETELY within your

rights. The case law has consistently held that students have the right to sit during the pledge. The teacher cannot send your out into the hall (Frain v. Baron, 307 F. Supp. 27) as that can be seen as a form of punishment. They cannot punish you in anyway. If you want more cases, let me know. It would just take a few minutes for me to fire them off to you, cause, after all, you're my hero.

[KerryOn]

37. Some advice....

No one can MAKE you stand for the pledge to the flag.

Think about it for a minute. The flag is nothing more than a symbol for which it stands. Kind of like worshiping an image. In fact its against the religion of Jehovah Wittinesses. They look at the flag as an image, which breaks on of the ten commandments.

Stand up for your rights, and don't back down.

[FreedomAngel82]

64. Exactly

God tells us not to worship idols. The flag can be seen as an idol. It always amazes me how these "religious right" people claim to be so religious and patriotic yet they put the flag above God and what Christ was really about. :eyes:

[Mich Otter]

39. Idioteque, you are learning that some fights come to you.

You don't get to pick all the fights how and when you would like them.
It is important that you remain calm throughout this .
Have you posted any of this at the Florida Forum? Perhaps there are some people there who can help get you connected with the ACLU or with media outlets.
It sounds like you and your friends are doing a very respectable job of standing up for your rights.

[spuddonna]

40. I can't believe they haven't disciplined the teacher...

They are violating your civil rights, and are in violation of federal law.

I hope you are able to get your story out via your friends onto "Fast Forward" and the Fox 13 Mag. Good luck with this, and please keep us updated on the progress!

BTW - I recently read from a Knight Foundation poll that more than a third of high school students surveyed think the First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees. (wtf?!)

I know you aren't doing this for a popularity contest :) but was wondering if you were receiving any support/harassment from fellow students about your stand?

[Idioteque]

43. Most students have been pretty supportive...

What sort of worries me is that because this teacher is so unpopular, several students might be supporting us just to stick to her.

While it is no secret that i strongly dislike this teacher, I would not hesitate to do the same thing if the teacher was different.

[spuddonna]

52. Well, you're in good company then...

I've read that several supporters of Cindy Sheehan are worried because people who aren't necessarily 'following the same agenda' are protesting with her. This is an age old problem with activism, anti-war protest: you attract others to your cause who may not be there for the same reason.

That has good points (bigger turnout) and bad points (like if you get the anarchists who wanna torch the sheriff's car!) lol

The important thing is to stay committed to whatever YOUR cause is. The truth is hard to fight... :) Besides, like Eleanor Roosevelt says: "Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't."

[Wheezy]

42. *applause*

I hope my kids stand up for their beliefs like you do. Good work!

My 6th grade son came home from school today with the assignment: Ask your parents why we are at war with Iraq.

I am SO excited by that question! My son said many kids in his class insisted that it was because of 9/11 (I am in red area of Phoenix), but that he and a few others knew the truth and they explained about Osama Bin Laden and that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I am so proud today. I hope your parents are supportive of you.

[smartvoter]

44. Awesome!!! nt

[mike_c]

54. Idioteque-- my hat is off to you....

THIS is what guarantees civil rights-- people with the courage to exercise them in the face of irrational opposition. :toast:

[roguevalley]

55. ahhh, idealism is alive and well. God bless you all. I can remember

the day. In our time, if you had even the most tasteful and respectful US flag on your clothes, you were kicked out. Some people sewed them on the seat of their jeans to have them do that. You come from a great tradition of youthful dessent. Have a good go at it and don't fail to let us know what is going on. Your teacher is subject to an ethics code they sign when they teach that is state administered.

Go here and read their listings. Teachers in violation can be sanctioned or suspended.

www.palmbeach.k12.fl.us/Jobs/codeofethics/slideshow.pps

EDIT: Here is a site list that has emails for you to use and phone numbers to contact to be directed to the proper person. It should be the ethics commissioner's office that handles teacher/school complaints: http://www.fldoe.org/staff/mailing_address.asp

These places have phone numbers and forms to fill out for complaints. Use it.

* Maintain a professional barrier between you and students. You are
the adult, the teacher, and the professional: act like the expert,
not like another one of the “kids.”

* Keep the classroom door open when talking with students.

* Refer students to the appropriate resource person for counseling
and/or discussions about personal matters.

* Do NOT discuss your personal life or personal matters with students.

* Do NOT harass students; respect their differences.

[evilqueen]

71. I had the flag sewn on the back of my jacket for the same reason.

I remember people getting kicked out of school for that, so a bunch of us got flag patches and wore them, flirting with the possibility of getting kicked out.

There were so many of us doing it that the school administrators stopped kicking people out of school for it.

We won.

[prole_for_peace]

56. i wish i was back in school so i could refuse to participate.

we said the pledge in elementary but not after that so the situation never came up but i have always wanted to be involved in things like this. i went to college in the last half of the eighties and was SO disappointed. i wanted protests and sit-ins. i was born 20 years too late.

[FreedomAngel82]

58. Good luck!

Please keep us updated. I'm sure the ACLU will help you. :hug:

[Tigress DEM]

60. Local FOX - that is MSM. GO for it. ALso more Lawyer ideas...

Hope you hear back from the ACLU. I'm sure they have their hands full these days!

There is also a National Lawyers Guild... Now they deal with helping people who have been contacted by the FBI... but they might know other lawyers or resources in the Florida area for your issue..

Florida - Gainesville
Andrea Costello
[e-mail]

Florida - Southern Florida
Neil Kolner, Miami, FL
[e-mail]

Florida - Tampa Bay
Linda Ramirez
[e-mail]

AND a National Students Guild... young lawyers... idealistic..

http://www.nlg.org/students/chapter_contacts.htm

one obvious FL connection:
Florida International - NLG
R. Cameron
Wheeler
[e-mail]

[Ladyhawk]

65. I'm very impressed that you stood up for yourselves!

When I was in fundy school, we had to pledge to the American flag (first), the Christian flag (second) and the Bible (third). I've tried hard to forget the pledges. I don't even want to try to to remember, but I can still see the three students holding the flags and the bible. I can remember turning to the American flag on the right, the Christian flag on the left and the bible in the center. *shudder*

Geez, I can't believe the thorough brain-washing I received didn't take! How the hell....??? I wish I would have figured it out sooner and I'm glad to see you thinking for yourself! I hope my nephew learns to think for himself despite his parents and that it doesn't end up hurting him too much.

Yes, I'm babbling...it's just that the memory of pledging to three different objects...ugh. It's a representation of everything I now find so deplorable.

[tavalon]

66. Has the ACLU responded to you yet?

[tomg]

67. Idioteque, what I think is really

the sharpest thing is the way it seems to have started for you. From what I saw in your first thread, it was when you saw the rights of two other people in your class getting stomped on by a tin-pot, fascist that you took part. King said it: "An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Incidentally, my wife and I are teachers. In fact, she is a union rep at her school and, frankly, she thinks that teacher is up the proverbial effluent creek. If nothing else, the regular Assistant Principal is going to be ticked for having to deal with that mess she created.

[spooky3]

73. Do not accept a transfer as the only resolution because

the bully will then have learned nothing and she'll be free to bully others--in fact, she may feel she's being rewarded by losing you "troublemakers". A transfer could be PART of the resolution, simply to spare you and your fellow students grief. But I hope you will also demand that she be corrected, receive training on free speech rights, and that she apologize to all affected by her bad behavior.