Liberalism vs. fundamentalism...

[GaYellowDawg]

These cannot coexist.

Just look at DU.

While there's general agreement on some issues, within those issues there's a continuum of positions. For instance, with respect to animal rights, there are some who think that animal research is fine for medicine and enjoy eating meat. There are some who think that animal research is OK for medicine but abstain from eating meat. There are those who vehemently disapprove of either. Yet, we're all here, because there are other issues that we find important. We're not single-issue people, for the most part.

Fundamentalism, on the other hand, requires rigid lockstep of beliefs. I think that this comes from the history of Protestantism - and yes, I say this from the perspective of a Protestant. Don't like what your church says? Go make your own and exclude from membership those who disagree with you. Any sort of reunification has to be strictly under YOUR terms. There is no compromise. It's not uncommon for individual Church of Christ preachers to have an "approved list" of churches - and even going to an extremely fundamentalist church outside the list is listening to heresy.

Liberals are encouraged to think for themselves. If we don't like what we're hearing, or we think we're hearing BS, we go do some research or go experience things for ourselves. We're autonomous thinkers.

Fundamentalists' belief systems have been imprinted on them as rigid from day one. The only time that they venture outside of their communities, they are "in the world but not of it," or are doing missionary work, in which case, they're trying to change someone else's worldview instead of understanding it. If the "right person" - some sort of religious figure - is telling them something, it doesn't even occur to them to question it, to do any kind of research into it, or to try to experience social settings other than their own. They will adopt other authority figures that are approved by the first one; hence, you see fundamentalists who believe that along with their preacher, that Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and George Bush have a direct pipeline to God. They are heteronomous thinkers; e.g., they let someone else do their thinking for them.

With this kind of surrender of their personal belief system, and their absolute adherence to dogma, fundamentalists are the last group that liberals should approach. If their fanaticism can be used or recruited for a single issue, fine, but only with the realization that they will, at some point, either convert you or denounce you.

Finally, no matter how much they wave the flag, fundamentalists are not Americans in spirit. The founders of this country wanted a secular government that allowed diverse views and expressions. They wanted freedom of religion. Fundamentalists do not. The religious freedom that they wish for is the freedom to forcibly impress their exact code on others. They are, frankly, traitors to the ideals of Jefferson.

Want a one-sentence statement? You don't allow someone into the big tent whose ultimate motive is to tear it down.

[MsAnthropy]

1. I totally agree! Well said.

[TahitiNut]

2. I have no problem with fundamentalist dogma ...

... that's solely imposed on the voluntary adherents to a faith or belief. Congregations of all kinds have their self-imposed standards, from laissez faire to oppressive. I respect the Amish and "plain folk" communities in Pennsylvania and Ohio.

I draw the line at those who'd coercively impose their dogma on people who don't freely choose to affiliate with their beliefs! It's not about evangelism, it's about coercion and oppression - theocratic fascism. There is absolutely no room in my definition of 'tolerance' to accommodate 'intolerance.'

[Coexist]

3. these two quotes from this thread just made my fridge!!!

"There is absolutely no room in my definition of 'tolerance' to accommodate 'intolerance."

"You don't allow someone into the big tent whose ultimate motive is to tear it down."

[evilkumquat]

4. I Think, Deep Down...

...the average Fundamentalist recognizes his own rigid, theocratic position is not too far removed from the fervor exhibited by the Taliban.

This would explain why the Fundies are so loud. They have to shout to be heard over their own screaming hypocrisy.

Evil Kumquat

[DanCa]

5. Good point lets celberate diversity and just remember

Fundamentalism is a dog that comes in many breeds.

[Bluerthanblue]

6. 'Gimme Shelter'

If we are a 'big tent' we should be open to anyone. But we should also insist that fundementalism in any form that closes that tent, by it's very nature, excludes itself from entering in.

The 'big tent' is beautiful because it has no barbed wire surrounding it. Fundementalists should find themselves on the fringe edges of any 'group'- because they walk a very narrow line, versus those who have no problem sharing the expanse within a group, who feel secure enough in themselves and their views, or open to growth that they do not have to co-erce others to cling tightly to some narrow, unbending path in order to 'make them right'.

To me, fundementalism is dictatorship. One leader, no dissent, no individual thought or stepping outside the 'norm'. Clinging stubbornly to the 'accepted' way of doing things, at ANY cost- in other words, no hope of improvement, growth, or positive change.

And fear, lots of fear.

[evilkumquat]

7. As An Athiest...

...you pretty much just described my views on any organized religion.

Evil Kumquat

[Bluerthanblue]

8. thats funny

cause i'm an ex-fundie, and a determined follower of Christ.
not 'religiously' but in 'faith, spiritually, and as best i can in walk more than talk'.

blu

[Armstead]

9. Fundamentalism is not inherently political

This modern association of fundamentalist Christianity with conservative poltiics is not related to religious fundamentalism. It is moe that the right wing has successfully channeled their inherent fervor and passion into a specific political mold.

The progressive movements in the late 19th Century/early 20th Century were often driven by people who might be called religious fundamentalists. But their version of fundamentalism was a belief that social justice was part of God's mission on earth.

Martin Luther King also had much in common with fundamentalists in a religious sense. He saw civil rights (and later opposing the war in Vietnam and fighting economic injustice) in extremely religious terms. REad some of his speeches. He makes Jerry Falwell sound like a slacker in terms of associating politics with Judeo/Christian values.

[kweerwolf]

10. So true, Armstead!

In the '60s Falwell was preaching sermons against preachers who got involved in politics (just as he was preaching against the 'evils' of desegregation).

Oh what a difference a few decades can make!

[GarySeven]

11. Fundamentalism is also incompatable with Conservativism

as a political ideology, it also requires flexibility in doxology to change with the latest poll numbers or whatever crackpot has sway at the moment.

[msmcghee]

12. Think about worldview, not as . .

. . something that we adopt voluntarily. It is who we are. It contains all that we know or understand or believe about the world to be true. It is how we survive.

We have evolved to protect our worldviews as we protect our selves and our children from harm - even if it is completely divorced from reality. One way of protecting your worldview is to impose it on others. All conflicts, wars, etc. can ultimately be seen through this window.

If you think that is far-fetched, ask yourself this - what war would not have been prevented had one side simply agreed to the worldview of the other? Once that happens your enemy becomes your ally.

(I'm not advocating that people adopt the worldview of others to prevent war. I'm just showing that worldview forces always underlie violent conflict.)

Liberals are liberal because they have learned (probably by applying their intelligence at a young age) that survival is enhanced if we remain skeptical about worldviews, especially strongly held worldviews - even when they infect our own minds. Just some additional thoughts.

[Touchdown]

13. Remember. They declared war on us, not the other way around.

1992 Republican National Convention. Pat Buchanan speaks in prime time, and declares a culture war. They are fighting it, and then they comlain that we're fighting back. Bullies, to the last.

[StayOutTheBushes]

14. I'm a fundemental liberal.