Gas Prices

[erpowers]

Today on ABC's Good Morning America there was a story about high gas prices in Europe. At the end of the story Charlie Gibson said it would cost him $150 to fill up his vehicle in Europe. Later I decide to find out how much it would cost to fill up the different types of hybrid vehicles both here in the United States and in Europe. Here are the results:

Cost of Filling Up Hybrids
Prius $35.7 $71.4
Highlander $51.6 $103.2
Accord $51.3 $102.6
RX 400h $51.6 $103.2

This leads to another point. There have been at least two stories about high gas prices on NBC and ABC. I noticed that neither of the stories mentioned hybrids as a way to save money on gas and I do not think either talked to a hybrid vehicle owner to see how gas prices are affecting them. Does anyone think the unwillingness to push hybrid vehicles or even to suggest hybrid vehicles as a fuel cost saver is that even with high gas prices, if large amounts of people switched to hybrid vehicles the profits of oil and gas companies would be greatly decreased since it seems that some of the gains for oil and gas companies comes from the high cost of filling up the hugh SUVs?

[Roland99]

1. I hate that they keep comparing it Europe's prices.

I DON'T LIVE IN EUROPE!

The price *I* pay has DOUBLED in the last few years.

[johnaries]

39. Hello! The price differences in Europe are all state TAXES! n/t

[ComerPerro]

53. Exactly. People in Europe actually get something out of their high prices

Meanwhile, the high prices here just go to oil company profits.

[myomy]

56. The higher taxes go toward more public transportation.

.

[LSK]

2. less people drive in Europe and their cars get much better MPG

Did he bother to give the sheeple those facts also??? I bet not.

[YOY]

6. Public transportation is fantastic in most European cities

Trams, subways/metros/buses, and the occasional Taxi when you need it.

Most of the time long drives are unnecessary.

[Mist]

16. That's it in a nutshell--most Americans HAVE to drive! n/t

[YOY]

18. My wife is European. She is floored by the space between

X, Y, and Z in the US and Canada.

Whereas X is home, Y is work, and Z is the store/grocery/bank/doctor's office etc...

[getmeouttahere]

28. But at least in NYC or Montreal....

they have subway systems, so there is an alternative for many people. They're gonna have to start using it more.

[YOY]

30. or DC...very nice as well. I already use it when I can.

but the rest of the continent is generally screwed unless they can set things up quickly. Lotsa talk...little action.

An honest fact is that most public transportation is not a profit making machine. Most public transit systems loose money. People don't like to be taxed for this kind of things. Even when these very things save money on other portians of their personal budget. (I find a nice arguement for socialized medical care by axeing personal expense to medical insurance to be a nice example of this as well.)

[getmeouttahere]

34. I've always felt public transit should be just that...public...

and it shouldn't matter whether it loses money or not. It's beneficial to the society. But, OMG, that's socialism. Can't have any of that!!!

[YOY]

36. It's also "big government"

Whether it be city, state, or federal...and of course it is incredibly beneficial to society!

Socialism!!! Heaven forbid we resemble those hellholes: Sweden, France, German, Japan, or Denmark!

[getmeouttahere]

40. Yes, all of them with a better standard of living...

it comes at a price, but with our resources (or at least before BushCo anyway) we could do these things better without raising taxes, but of course our priorities are completely out of whack!

[YOY]

48. With the money we have we could make an Utopia in a decade

but who wants an Utopia when you can have American Jesusland!

Then again...we might have to invest in (gulp) technology initiatives, education, and put forth restrictions on business.

[getmeouttahere]

49. No kidding, Jesusland...

instead of using the Euros or Japan as a model and maybe doing it better, we continue to regress, in every way imaginable.

[Telly Savalas]

45. Public roads and highways lose money too.

In fact, other than turnpikes most of them don't even have user fees.

[YOY]

47. Yes but as you pointed out

only Turnpikes charge per use. The good reason for that is that there really would be that regular roads and highways could not charge per use in any efficient way:

-Toll booths every mile?
-An electronic tracking system that reports your usage to the govt?
-Meter readers who stop by your garage and record your odometer?

...all of my ideas are a big NO GO due to monetary efficiency for one reason alone!

Almost all public transportation charges per use one time use and more modernly have prepaid passes over monthly periods that allow unlimited use.

They are intended to make a bit of profit. The Point-in-figure is that they never do make enough to cover their expenses.

[Telly Savalas]

50. They aren't intended to make a profit.

I don't think a single transit system in any major metropolis in North America is profitable. Public funds are used to subsidize the system. This is as it should be because of the positive externalities that come with transit. (e.g. even if I drive everywhere, a transit system benefits me by removing a bunch of other cars from the road, easing traffic congestion, not to mention the cleaner air from fewer vehicle emissions.)

[YOY]

51. I never thought they should!

And I agree with you on every point!

I was just stating the fact earlier that these systems (although beneficial in the whole) can be seen as negative through undiscerning eyes in financial terms.

[Telly Savalas]

52. Yeah, sorry to be so damn argumentative. Can't help myself sometimes.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think that's all the more reason the progressive movement needs to step up to the plate on the transit debate.

[YOY]

54. A lot of us are angry...most of us are nearly on the same page

and those of us that are not are at least on the same chapter. The discussion is open minded and usually friendly, but with the current status quo a lot of progressives (myself included) are ready to snap back at a moment's notice. This coupled with the annoyances of lurking trolls makes for hot heads.

'lax man, you're among friends!

It's the nice thing about this place. :hippie:

[cbear70]

3. along this line...

Our local newspaper in Iowa keeps publishing articles on how the cost of gas is not really affecting anyone. Our local gas stations have actually increased their sales. No one is complaining, yet my husband and I hear it constantly that gas is too high. This is not a big town so who are they writing the article about? We have cut back drastically and resort to walking everywhere, are we the only ones? I doubt it. They too have not published anything about hybrid cars or how to save money.

Curious , isn't it?

[LSK]

4. I am on a muscle car forum

And those guys were heavy right wing during the elections. But now some of them are starting to feel it and are up in arms. The papers can publish all the stories they want, but people know when they are being hit by gas prices.

[phantom power]

5. I think it has to do with the kinds of stories broadcasters like to run.

Any story that implies people should change their lifestyle is considered to be risky, unpopular, etc.

So, when news corporations run stories about high gas prices, they tend to run them in "weather-report" style. "Wow! how about those high gas prices! Wow! how about that heat!"

Digging beneath the surface, like investigating the underlying cause of high gas prices, or what people can do to reduce demand, is not the kind of story they want to run anymore.

I don't think it's exactly a conspiracy, as in they are being directed by the oil corporations. But its not accidental either. It's a reaction to what they perceive as the kind of story that people like to watch.

[electropop]

7. I think of high gas prices as the

"Impeach Bush Fund."

It's gradually going to dawn on people that Iraq is not a war _for_ oil, it's a war _against_ oil, and that's the only sense in which it's a huge success. Meanwhile, Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Rice etc reap huge profits on their American oil supplies, just as Cheney plotted in his energy meetings with Enron et al. The bottom line is, that's why Cheney won't come clean on those energy meetings: they were the first steps in planning the Iraq war.

[SoCalDem]

8. Apples-Oranges

People in Europe have affordable, dependable, safe, clean public transportation.. They also have very narrow roads, fewer parking places and they don't NEED cars as much as the US does. the US' public transportation was deliberately dismantled as part of a scheme to GET people to buy cars after WWII..

There is an excellent series on PBS (probably in their archives at the website) that details how the gas companies, the rubber industry and the concrete lobbies piggybacked onto Eisenhower's Interstate plan..(Interstates highways were originally set up for national defense)..

No public transportation meant that people "needed" cars, oil, gas, tires etc.. Once they had a car, it was easy to convince them to populate suburbs...then the "need" for TWO cars (so Mom woudn't be marooned out there on foot...

[getmeouttahere]

9. You must have grown up in SoCal, SoCalDem...

my Dad grew up in Anaheim, and he told me about how the car companies, oil companies and even tire companies conspired to get rid of the "Red Cars", thus consigning Los Angeles to decades of dependance on vehicles for transportation. Combine that with these idiot developers building suburban communities with no sidewalks and you create even MORE dependance on cars.

[SoCalDem]

11. Actually I grew up overseas and in Kansas..

But I also spent some time in Michigan City Indiana where the South Shore still runs down the middle of the streets and goes all the way into downtown chicago's El..

We fought tooth and nail to save the South Shore...

[getmeouttahere]

13. Wow, that's huge!

I hope they continue to fight for even more mass transit.

As of last week, I am walking the 1.2 miles to work. I felt like an idiot driving that distance anyway.

[SoCalDem]

15. Here's a map of the route.. & the story

http://www.rosshorwood.com/RailSiteLinksFiles/ChicagoSouthShore.html

[getmeouttahere]

20. I had NO idea, that is amazing...

and all the way to South Bend, too. Maybe I missed it, how long would it take, typically, to get from Gary to downtown Chicago?

[SoCalDem]

31. Not that long.. Those trains really zip along

and they used to run quite late into the night.. We used to go out to eat in downtown Chicago, and take that last train home .. Sure beats driving and parking:)

Some of the trains were VERY old back when we rode them.. Perhaps they have upgraded by now.. Once we took one that still had the potbelly stove in the coach :)

[getmeouttahere]

35. Oh, the coach with the potbelly would be cool!

I love going to cities that have transit systems like that. Montreal, London, NYC, Paris, Chicago, even San Fran has that going on. L.A. is starting to ramp up, but we're so huge geographically so it remains to be seen how effective it will be. But something is better than nothing.

[Richard Steele]

33. There's an AMAZING documentary on this subject,

called "Taken For a Ride".

http://www.newday.com/films/Taken_for_a_Ride.html

<snip>

Why Does America Have the Worst Public Transit in the Industrialized World, and the Most Freeways?
Taken for a Ride reveals the tragic and little known story of an auto and oil industry campaign, led by General Motors, to buy and dismantle streetcar lines. Across the nation, tracks were torn up, sometimes overnight, and diesel buses placed on city streets.

The highway lobby then pushed through Congress a vast network of urban freeways that doubled the cost of the Interstates, fueled suburban development, increased auto dependence, and elicited passionate opposition. Seventeen city freeways were stopped by citizens who would become the leading edge of a new environmental movement.

<end snip>

General Motors was prosecuted for this, and found GUILTY in Federal Court.
I believe they were fined 10 thousand dollars, and laughed all the way to the bank.

[getmeouttahere]

42. This sounds great, thanks for the tip

I'll definitely check this out

[SoCalDem]

46. I think that's the one I saw too. It was in 2 parts

really laid out the "scheme"..and showed a vast "dumping ground" of perfectly good buses & trollies..:(

Link to the book..lots of used books too http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?S=R&qwork=6531824&qsort=p&siteID=Pw2LQAj_zJk-XhRRfrjorYiweZ_buRfkrw

[kerryin2004]

10. Not that I am an economist.

but being that the dollar is worth less when compared with the pound and euro shouldn't revisions be made for their cost. Look at the amount of tax on gas over there and you will see why it is more expensive, and has been forever. The Europeans prepared for these days with a transportation system within their communties that are far superior to anyhing we have.

Add the fact that they have been better prepared for higher prices by car companies marketing small cars instead of tanks, and that they are not as spread out as us, and I would say Europe better off..

[getmeouttahere]

12. Yep, they can always hop a train/subway/metro....

one of the things American cities should be pushing for is more mass transit, especially light rail, which I'll assume is a less expensive alternative. We're already 30 years too late, better start taking the pain now, before it really gets out of control.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. If they did, the myth would be exploded. The US citizens are in for hard

times.

[YOY]

17. Consider Purchasing Power Pairity (PPP)

Take into consideration just how much one monetary unit can purchase in said places. In Europe many things are cut out (medical insurance in some cases.) Manditory travel by car in other cases.

What does a loaf of bread cost?

The gas?

The car?

Rent/housing?

Medical costs?

A sterio/other luxury item?

Analize the budget from therein.

just a thought.

[lostinacause]

19. Europe has a high population density thus public transit becomes more

efficient and pollution becomes more harmful. There also is not as much space for parking and so on.

Much of what happened was dictated by circumstance.

[getmeouttahere]

21. True, but in a place like L.A.

we have had congested freeways for decades. We are so far behind when it comes to mass transit. Fortunately the new mayor understands and is working on it. They are also already expanding two of the existing Metro lines out here.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

22. "The Europeans prepared for these days...transportation system" Exactly..

We've been struggling in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, to get a light rail system (one of the only good things Jesse Ventura did for the state,) and now that Pawlenty is governor, the project has been stalled.
Figures. Pawlenty (R - idiot) wants...you guessed it: MORE ROADS!

[rman]

23. Europeans are SILENT about it

for the most part.

A Dutch Peak Oil action group did talk with politicians about PO, they said they can't put it on the agenda unless PO is in the media.
The media commonly claim they present a reflection of society, but society doesn't know about PO because nor the media nor politicians tell them about it.

The German Central bank issued a warning about PO, as did a report by the French government. But those to are met mostly with silence.

Also Europe didn't so much prepare specifically for shortages of oil and fuel, it's just that unlike the US we did extend and do maintain public transport. Of course this will soften the blow somewhat, but it's not intentional for this purpose.

[natrat]

55. The US also had oil wells during its 20th century development

while europe did not so it was easier to grow without public transit

[rman]

57. Europe has North-sea oil, and lots of natural gas

though North-sea oil is now past production peak (as is US oil).

[getmeouttahere]

24. Oh, for crissakes, MORE ROADS????

sounds like an appropriate name for a repuke governor...as in, Pawlenty of money to survive a depression.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

25. Heh. "Pawlenty of money" I like that.

Yep, more roads.
Pawlenty wanted to run for what's currently Norm "Zipper" Coleman's seat, but Bush pretty much told him "If you run, you won't have the support of the President".

So Pawlenty settled on Governor, which he won with 44% of the vote. (Tim Penny had a 16.8% showing running as an Independent, but I have no idea which way they would have voted if he didn't run, so I'm not going to blame him.)

And he wants more roads for the Cities. We only have one Light Rail line, and that's between downtown Minneapolis and the Maul of America (Pun intended) with a stop at the International Airport on the way. While I hear that the light rail line is great, it's simply not enough, and I know of no other light rail projects that are green lighted. They want to stretch the line between Minneapolis and St. Paul, but I've seen no construction whatsoever. So yeah, these gas prices really hurt the Twin Cities, and Pawlenty still wants more roads.

[getmeouttahere]

27. Considering the cost of energy must be greater...

in a state like Minnesota, with cold winters and hot summers, and you've got a triple energy wammy! that's messed up. Given your weather, you guys should have a subway system! They have made us slaves to our cars!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

29. Indeed. This winter is going to be rough.

I rent an apartment, but I fully expect my rent to increase next year because of the drastic increase in fuel costs.
We were the largest metro area in the U. S. without a mass transit light rail system, and while we have one now, it's nowhere near adequate.
I haven't paid attention, but I don't know if there's any other plans for light rail on the table here. I can't even take the bus to get to work now (we re-located to an area where the buses normally don't run. The closest stop near my workplace would take me three hours to get here from my apartment.

[getmeouttahere]

32. Any chance you can move closer to work?

I feel for you, Bro. I live 10 minutes walk from the Pacific Ocean, so in summer all I have to do is open a window, and voila, instant air conditioning. And we don't have winter here. So I have no excuse for high energy bills. Now I just have to make sure my roommate isn't wasting energy. And I'm walking to work now, too.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

38. Not right now.

There are few apartment buildings near work, and rent's just as high in those areas as it is for my apartment.
Oddly enough, when our offices re-located at the end of 2004, the time it took me to get to work was roughly the same (10 minutes). Of course, now I have to take the freeway to get to work, but... :shrug:

[getmeouttahere]

41. So there is very little difference in the rent?

are you one of those "urban flight" folks? LOL

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

44. "Urban Flight"?

I'm not sure what you mean.

[benburch]

26. We interrupt this thread...

[gasperc]

37. so europeans drive to the US to fill up?

I get the point, hey stop bitching they pay double in Europe, well after a recession hits, demand collapses and the housing bubble bursts, I'll comfort myself with well in Europe they pay double for gas. What fuckwads.

[getmeouttahere]

43. That rant sounds a little too freeper for me!