If you are winning...

[marcus_b]

There are quite some posts recently that express anger and frustration, and some are quite offensive. I can understand that, and often feel the same, but I want to share something with you. A person I respect a lot (Eben Moglen, Professor of Law and Legal History, general counsel of the Free Software Foundation), gave a talk about the political aspects of the struggle of the free software movement a year ago in Berlin (Germany), and he gave this advise:

If you are winning, don't attack too hard.

This doesn't mean to stop fighting, not at all. You have to keep the pressure up, and even increase it. But you have to consider how you fight. There is a time for attacking, but there is also a time for mockery, and even a time for embracing and compromises. If you are on the losing side, you have to take risks and attack. But if you are winning, you want to play your more charming cards. If you are too offensive you risk alienating those who are already ripe for switching to your side. Make fun of your political enemy, be witty, make it easy for those who want to switch over and just want to see that you have the better vision of the world.

Of course, if they attack you, defend yourself (if needed). And if they knock down crosses, put them up again. But what's the point in yelling at someone who does such a thing? He already has lost.

There is another facet to this: I have checked out the freeper forum as well, and to put it mildly, they are much, much "better" at spitting venom than anything I have seen around here. Put your force where your strength is! Our strength is in reason and truth, in compassion and empathy, in wits and humor. We are strong, we can defend ourselves, but we have better motivations for what we do than rage, and love is a much stronger "poison" than hatred.

Just my two cents, keep it up and peace to you all!

[Catherine Vincent]

1. Great advice!

Welcome to DU!:hi:

[lostinacause]

2. Good thoughts

[nookiemonster]

3. Very good!

At the risk of being called a "commie sympathizer" at FR (Just wait, it'll happen), I think Sun Tzu said it best.

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

[lostinacause]

9. Who is the enemy?

[nookiemonster]

12. Shhhhh. It's a secret.

Hence the Sun Tzu quote.

:silly:

[lostinacause]

13. The problem is in wrongfully declaring that a friend is an enemy you

end up fighting yourself. Also an enemy can be a friend if it is in their best interest.

[nookiemonster]

14. I understand the "enemy of my enemy is my friend",

but you lost me by saying that I'm fighting myself. Perhaps I'm just missing the "deeper" meaning.

Please clarify.

[lostinacause]

25. If one declares X the enemy and X is actually a friend then you end

up harming yourself. A simple example would be bees and flowers. Someone could see bees on the flower and think that they were bad. Any action trying to prevent the bees from landing on the flowers would actually harm the flowers. In declaring someone or something the enemy they end up hurting themselves. Profits are one such thing. Many people, predominantly liberals for obvious reasons believe that a high level of profits are bad things. Often not keeping in mind what ones goals are makes it so people advocate things that hurt them in order to fulfill their desire to fight this or that. In the end while they have hurt others they have also hurt themselves. Conservatives are generally the same way about "justice" they seem more intent on punishing the individual rather then seeking to see that the event does not happen again.

[thoughtanarchist]

4. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[freeplessinseattle]

5. True. I post on a non-political board

that sometimes gets into political discussions. The nastier the freep types get the more gracious I become. I admonish gently that we can debate without insulting board readers (as in saying "the looney left" or "dems are pinko commies" or whatever) by sticking to the issues at hand, but insulting politicians is ok. That just gets them crazy, they don't know how to debate without making sweeping insulting nasty remarks, and it just makes me look better. That board is actually related to my business so even better:)

[corkhead]

6. you put your finger on it

I truly believe we have them on their heels.
It's our turn

Carpe Diem!


Excellent post

:patriot:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

8. Lack of funds raised? You've got the wrong Party, friend!

And possibly the wrong website as well.

Nice bunch of RW talking-points you got there!

Too bad they aren't true....

[WilliamPitt]

18. Check your data

a) The Democratic Senate Campaign Committee raised 4x the amount their GOP counterparts managed in the last quarter. Thank you, Howard.

b) When was the last time someone disguised themselves as a Republican by calling bush a chickenhawk?

Try harder next time.

[marcus_b]

19. Right, I meant the Cindy Sheehan camp events.

I should have said what events I meant specifially. The reference to the "crosses" gave a clue: I meant the efforts by Cindy Sheehan. She is clearly very successful in what she is currently doing.

You are right that the global picture is pretty dim. The advise for if you are losing is: Take risks and try a surprise attack.

BTW, I don't know Ohio, but my general impression is that there is a huge majority of disenfranchised people who don't feel represented by either of the two big parties at the state and national level. If you would tap into those potential voters, by accurately standing for their interests (universal health care, worker protection, international diplomacy via the UN, gun control, etc), you could sweep the country.

The obstacle would be that you would have to face the smear campaigns of the right wing, and more importantly, the mass media under corporate control. My feeling is that this can only happen after a huge popular movement has totally debunked the myths and propaganda of the last decades. One corner stone of this popular movement we can see in action right now, in Crawford. Another corner stone can be seen here, on this forum, in the many blogs and other internet resources. Other corner stones are well-established, for example the broad feminist, human-rights and environmental movements. It just has to come together.

[jsamuel]

10. The Dems have to get better at attacking Tactfully while not getting too

weak

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. The problem is, since Bush, the Repubs have been all attack all the time.

There is no conciliation whatsoever in them, and their attacks are vicious and disgusting, whether the target is McCain, Wilson, Kerry, Cleland, or Cindy Sheehan.

Seems to be working great for them so far.

[marcus_b]

21. Could be a sign of weakness.

You raise an important point, and it is worth to think about it. Difficult to talk about this in such broad terms, but it seems to me there are several things to consider.

First, the Republicans and Democrats have totally different bases. The type of people who are attracted by each party are different. I read at some time that the psychological image of the Republicans is the "strong father", that of the Democrats the "nurturing mother". It's very hard to escape such role models (you have to try though, so not to be trapped). But once they are established, it seems to me that attacking works well for the "strong father" model, it's reinforcement.

Second, the Republicans were operating from a position of strength. They already had won. But more importantly, it seems to me that their power is built on very fine sand. If your whole career is built on lies, deception, hate, fear and propaganda, then you have to keep spinning or you will go down. So, keeping the attacks up seems to be a necessity for them to me. It's the fuel they are running on.

Take just one example. We all know how the propaganda machine works. Propaganda, as a professional technique, exists since the 1920s. Since then it is clear that the masses can be manipulated, so "democracies" can be accepted by the elites as long as the elites control the propaganda media. Now, the techniques of propaganda (the sciences behind it, the experimental data, the analytical methods, etc) have been constantly improved for almost a hundred years now. The expenses for propaganda have been going up, too. But the effectiveness has been going _way_ down. People just don't buy it anymore. Trust into politicians and corporations have sunk. Corporations put more and more dollars into the propaganda warfare, just to stay above the surface and not drown completely. The elite is very, very scared, because they know how close people are from shaking themselves free.

[spuddonna]

15. Good post! And welcome! :)

I think it's better to stick to the high ground, and if you are going to attack, use your wits. Keep it clean (for the most part). Mark Twain skewered people, but he made them laugh while he did it...

I think most of the anger on the boards here is righteous anger. I think it comes from dealing with all the lies and slander that has been sent our way over the past 5 years... Even Jesus got po'd in the temple, so I think we all have our 'breaking points'.

[nookiemonster]

17. Taking the high ground may work for some,

but I don't subscribe to it. For so long, I really wanted to believe that by taking a higher moral stance, the public would see through the RW masquerade and understand. Unfotunately, with the press being in bed with these folks, our message can't get out.

One thing about DU is that hypocrites don't last long and are pegged pretty quick. I am by no means a moralist, and never claimed to be. Knowing that, there is no fucking way that I would ever run for any political position. I will fight dirty, if necessary, as long as it fosters a positive result.

Yes, the argument can be made that "the ends shouldn't justify the means". but I have no problem dancing with the devil if need be.

[spuddonna]

20. I guess when I say 'taking the high ground', I mean...

not lying. You can be a very tough, morally righteous person. When I think of the type of Dems I'd like to see, I think of Truman. He had no problem telling the truth, and taking the heat for doing it.

Too many of our Dem leaders think that they have to be 'nice' to win. That's not what I'm advocating. Dick Durban was absolutely right in calling what he read torture and comparing it to other oppressive regimes, and he should NEVER have apologized.

When the swift-boating of Kerry happened, I kept waiting for him to get mad, to say to these idiots, "You are so full of shit", but he never did. Why? He didn't think it needed addressing because it was a lie? You have to call a lie, a lie. You have to fight to spread the truth.

[nookiemonster]

22. I'm not poo-pooing your take on the issue,

In a perfect world, without vicious propaganda, I would be in complete agreement with you. Unfortunately, fuckers on the RW just make shit up, and the press prints it.

There is no pride in trashing another person by despicable means. I'm not advocating any such activity, but many likeminded people as myself, want this shit to seriously stop NOW!

While I understand that many on the Left will be repulsed by these actions, if we can supress the rape of the Right to our country, then assholes like myself can sleep a little better at night.


:pals:

[spuddonna]

24. lol "assholes like myself can sleep a little better at night"

Can I use that if I run for office?

"Vote Spuddonna! Freedom for assholes is on the march!"

Yeah, I want the shit-barge of lies to stop, too... I come here waaay more than I should, and read the daily results of the right-wing sludge machine that is reported here, and I wonder if it's ever going to end...

I need more coffee... DU should get a coffee sponsorship. I'll bet there's a lot of over-caffeinated freaks like me out there...

:pals:

[marcus_b]

23. We're in for the long haul

You are correct that it is not good enough to "be right". You also have to get the word out, and convince people. And yes, we can not count on the mass media. The press has a different job entirely: They have to sell their readers to corporations for advertisment.

So what can be done about that? Here is an idea: Make an internet forum where people can talk directly to each other, bypassing the media entirely. Oh, wait, you already did that! :)

Ok, now we only have to reach all those other people who are not lurking here. Exactly the same question has come up at the conference I talked about in my post, let me quote Eben Moglen's talk:

Well, let's reach into the history of the struggle for freedom of thought to think about that. The moment where we might want to is in the place we think of it now historically as religious reformation. Those who had dissenting views concerning the doctrine and orthodoxy of the one indivisible holy roman catholic church at the opening of the 16th century found themselves pretty much in the same place. And their answer was pretty much the answer we must come to which is that contact between individuals--personal contact, word of mouth--is fundamentally the best way to teach anybody anything.

It is for this reason that Lutheran and Calvinist theology made such an enormous point about the importance of hearing the preaching of the word, because to be in personal contact with the sound waves emitted by human beings is the best way to convert a system of orthodoxy to a new idea.

The power of the electronic media is undeniable. The world of the 20th century was a world in which it was proven that radio could cause mass-murder. But that does not mean that the power of one person to one person has vanished in any way at all."

[pitohui]

16. fine but we're not winning

so maybe we can save this advice for some fine future where the forces of evil are not holding all 3 branches of governance & most of the mass media, ya think

[yodermon]

26. Kicking, and highlighting this quote from your post:

Our strength is in reason and truth, in compassion and empathy, in wits and humor.