The A.N.S.W.E.R. Problem

[earthmama]

I went to the local vigil last night and was handed a flyer for the Sept 24th protest. I was planning on going to the DC protest, actually had a hotel reserved but after receiving this flyer, I decided to cancel my trip. WHY?

On this flyer from A.N.S.W.E.R., the top of it read "STOP THE WAR IN IRAQ." You betcha. But then it says:

- Support Palestinian people right of return
- End Colonial Occupation: Iraq, Palestine, Haiti
- US out of the Philippines
- US out of Puerto Rico
etc.

This is looking like a repeat of the Oct 25, 2003 march in San Francisco. I was there at the font of the march and had volunteered to carry an A.N.S.W.E.R. banner. Imagine my surprise when, expecting to carry something about bringing our troops home, I was instead handed a big green "Free Palestine" banner. Huh?

I think A.N.S.W.E.R. needs to learn something about setting priorities and focusing efforts on one thing at a time. While I am certainly sympathetic to many of their other causes, in order to be effective we need to focus our energy on one thing at at time. We are marching in DC against the war in Iraq. Not against the Palestinian occupation. Not about Haiti. Puerto Rico? With all these mixed messages, we on the left wind up looking like disorganized clowns to the media, and they slant their reporting to reflect this perception. We need middle America to hear our voice ABOUT THIS ONE CAUSE. With all the other crap being protested we are going to wind up looking like we do not have our bolts screwed in right.

We are at a turning point in the country thanks to Cindy Sheehan. We need to do this right. We can not afford to make any mistakes here.

When you see the freepers protesting, misguided as they are they at least do it right. They don't dilute their message by trying to heap on every right wing grievance at once. They are there for one cause and one cause only, and they stick to their Rovian talking points. Simple-minded and evil, but effective.

Please keep these protests focused on the war in Iraq. Once we win this, then we can "move on" to the next issue. Success breeds success.

I am calling A.N.S.W.E.R. today to voice my concerns and I hope more of you will join me.

[quiet.american]

1. You make a good point. n/t

[Peace Patriot]

66. No, it's not a good point. It's a knee-jerk point, which derives from the

poster's incomplete understanding of why we are in Iraq, and overly-reverent attitude toward the war profiteering corporate news monopolies who put us there.

The poster in a sense is PANDERING to those news monopolies who have done such disservice to the American people, in every way--from acting as government propaganda shills for the war, to trumpeting rightwing minority views as the "mainstream." We MUST learn to IGNORE them--and how they portray demonstrators--NOT pander to them. They WILL distort and marginalize, NO MATTER WHAT banners people carry. Please understand this.

To most of the world, Palestine IS the point. We are the only people in the world who don't get it--because we have been so poorly informed about it. The unjust shoving aside of the Palestinian people, to make way for the Israeli homeland, and the Bush Cartel's carte blanche to Israel to shove them around some more--to build a wall around them!--as part of a Bush Cartel "grand design" to dominate the world and grab all of its remaining oil resources, is the HEART OF THE MATTER to just about everybody but the mis-informed and dis-informed American people.

To Arabs and Muslims, the treatment of the Palestinians means that Arabs and Muslims DON'T MATTER to the western world. The only thing that matters to us is grabbing land and riches and oil--THEIR land, THEIR oil. And we have so horribly interfered with Arab/Muslim countries and governments--WE toppled the democratically elected government of Iran, for instance, and installed the dreadful "Shah"--that ordinary Arabs/Muslims are oppressed on every side, from without and within. They see the way Palestinians are treated as a WESTERN policy of disregard, of NOT CARING about them.

How many crosses in Crawford, Texas, were put up to mourn the tens of thousands of Iraqis slaughtered by our bombs? None, as far as I know. U.S. soldiers' deaths in Iraq are dreadful--but so are these many other deaths. But they're "just Arabs," right? Rumsfeld: "We don't count civilian deaths." I understand Cindy Sheehan's focus--her love for her son--and ANY such death in unjust war is an outrage. I don't mean to criticize her. I'm just using it as an illustration of a quite typical attitude among Americans that Iraqi deaths--even tens of thousands of civilians--are often not worth mentioning.

Now, think of yourself as an Iraqi. How would that make you feel? And think of yourself as an Iraqi, or Iranian, or Syrian, contemplating the situation in Palestinian, in which billions and billions of dollars in U.S. military aide, on Israel's side, is being used to strip Palestinians of farm land, cut them off from water supplies, bulldoze their neighborhoods, impoverish them, oppress them, and in some cases, imprison, torture, and kill them.

Until Bush, the U.S. policy was to use U.S. support of Israel as a "carrot" to push Israel--by far the most powerful party in that situation--to reach some kind of resolution with the native Palestinians, at least to aim at peace and justice. Our policy was to act as the "honest broker" in ceasefires and peace talks, to get the two sides at least working toward a resolution. We have sometimes been hypocrites about it. But that was the thrust of our policy--and has been for 50 years.

Since Bush, though, the thrust of our policy has been VIOLENCE--violent DOMINATION of the Middle East, invading and devastating Iraq, and saber rattling at its neighbors. Arabs and Muslims cannot help but see this as SIDING with Israel AGAINST Arabs and Muslims --because it's pretty much true. And THEY see our invasion of Iraq as ALL OF A PIECE with the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, the walling off of Palestinian farm lands, and the use of mechanized warfare against a mostly helpless people.

And they are not alone in seeing it that way. MOST of the world sees it that way.

On Israel/Palestine, I sympathize with BOTH sides. I think both peoples have a right to be there. And I think that the Jews have been so badly treated by western "Christian" civilization that we really do owe them support in creating a homeland, as recompense. HOWEVER, we have ALSO treated Arabs and Muslims very, very badly. We have in some cases directly destroyed democracy in their countries, and installed and supported sultans and dictators. And the current Israeli government (and some past Israeli governments) see only one solution: creating an almost medieval fortress, bristling with armaments, within which Israeli democracy can somehow survive (so they think) walled off and armed with nukes against all their neighbors, and excluding, piecemeal--with a wall!--the Palestinian Arabs.

It is an UNTENABLE situation! And ADDING the entire U.S. military machine INTO this hotbed--into this potential holocaust--is INSANE. Pushing Iran to get nukes our of fear of invasion is INSANE. Shoving the Palestinians around with bulldozers and walls is INSANE.

There will be NO PEACE in the Middle East, and I guarantee you, there will be NO withdrawal of U.S troops from Iraq, until the U.S. government CHANGES ITS POLICY ON ISRAEL-PALESTINE, and aims again at being an HONEST BROKER of that conflict, and not a tool of rightwing Israeli politicians, with U.S. oil interests and war profiteers meanwhile looting and plundering everything in sight.

"One issue at a time" is how we got INTO Iraq. WMDs. 9/11. Saddam is a bad man. Utterly lame-brained thinking. The Middle East is a COMPLEX situation, that can ONLY BE UNRAVELED, understood and peacefully resolved, STARTING WITH ISRAEL-PALESTINE.

The peaceful people of the world, in the U.S., in Israel, and everywhere else--and we ARE the vast majority of the earth--need to unite around this, and re-empower ourselves, and SOLVE this untenable and explosive situation in the Middle East with diplomacy, understanding, compassion and generosity. And "justice for the Palestinians" is Problem #1 that the good people of the earth need to solve. It is the key to world peace. And if we don't solve it, we may be looking at a nuclear holocaust and the end of all life on earth.

[hexola]

67. Your post is perfect example of the crap we should be avoiding...

The message is simple. Get out of IRAQ.

I dont disagree with much of what you wrote. But that isn't going to sell. Nobody can understand that. Its a nice argument...but the nuts and bolts of it don't matter. Just get out of IRAQ. Just make that ONE point ...and make it good!!!

Look how well the Republicans were able to control thier fringe elemets at the GOP convention. They are just as nutty as ever - but at least the knew what would sell and what wouldnt...

Swallow your pride for a moment. You dont have an "exclusive" on reason.

[SeanQ]

81. Sorry PP, but you just don't get it

I happen to agree with most all of your post, in the sense of the importance of all those issues to finding a long-term solution. But by trying to push all that up front you only manage to reduce the support you might have otherwise found. Most people are drawn into peace work because of one or two motivating points. Over time they become educated and involved or supportive of a wider range of goals. But they start with one!

Supporting Cindy's message, focusing on withdrawal from Iraq and getting the truth out about the lies that were used to get us there is something we can get far, FAR, FAR more support for! It's just that simple - organize around ideas you can turn out 100's of thousands with and get some momentum, or follow your suggestions and get maybe 10's of thousands if you are lucky. Have the event be just about the common goal.

And I'm not talking about how the media portray the event (or don't). I'm talking about not giving reasons for those who are borderline on attending to not do so. Work on reaching out to the most people possible (in programming we have a saying KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid). But while you have people there, work on education for other issues. Don't make the other stuff part of the event. But have the information available and people to do teach-work. Don't have speeches _about_ Palestine, but do mention that the problems in Palestine impact Iraq and why, and point out where to find out more.

[Dynasty_At_Passes]

214. This information on Palestine does not need to be in the flyers.

Any of that information or forcing the military out of every country is harmful to the movement.

It is basically correct, and there is nothing wrong with understanding the policy and how we feed Israel and other dictator supported countries.

But it is not helpful to ANSWER or the whole movement, that message is no good. Just keep it as GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW and put that on every flyer. Keep it straight, and the rest will follow.

[BluGrl]

84. Who's your audience?

If your audience is Washington DC politicians then that message is fine. But if you are trying to convince the averageAmerican whose interest is piqued by Cindy Sheehan, then bringing up all the extra issues IS going to be a turnoff to them.

It reminds me of someone being interested in attending a community event at a local church and then getting inundated with offers to get baptized, pleas for contributions to missionaries and having your car loaded down with "study material".

They may have been interested in the community event, but do you think they'll be back after the attempted conversion? NO!

[Peace Patriot]

110. Please see my comment on corporate news monopoly manipulation of

our perception of American opinion, post #101, at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2015006

I think it's very important NOT to pander to corporate news monopoly notions of what a protest should look like, because they WILL distort whatever we do. That is a given. They WILL distort it, no matter what. And if you start censoring banners--such as "Justice for Palestine"--you may just be squelching a major insight into the Iraq war about what needs to be done to withdraw US troops, as I have argued above. Americans NEED TO KNOW that the rest of the world considers Israel/Palestine to be the heart of the problem. That IS a vital and major insight, in my opinion. And if you stifle it--in the naive belief that the corporate news monopolies will therefore be kinder to you--you are going to be very disappointed, and all you will really be doing is depriving other Americans of that vital insight.

In 1968, Martin Luther King decided that he must speak out against the Vietnam War. He was advised by liberals not to do so. They said it would "sully" the civil rights issue. It would muddy the waters. But his point was that, not only was the slaughter that was going on there wrong, it was RACIST. Vietnamese were called "gooks." Poor black Americans were being forced, in unfair numbers, to go over and kill little brown people--for what?

He also expanded the civil rights issue to include economic issues. He was advised against that, too. Was he wrong to broaden the picture--to try to get people to understand the civil rights issue IN CONTEXT as a HUMAN rights issue?

The slaughtering of Iraqis is AKIN to the oppression of Palestinians--and in the case of Palestine, the issue is aflame in the Arab/Muslim world. It is their key grievance against us. If we don't solve THAT, then our withdrawal of troops from Iraq will be leaving behind a tinderbox which we will undoubtedly be drawn right back into it, because Israel is our ally and/or because of the growing threat of a nuclear exchange (which will, according to Carl Sagan in his book "The Cold and the Dark," destroy earth's biosphere, and that will be that--even a limited nuke exchange will kill us all).

I can't begin to tell you how badly the Bush Cartel has messed things up in the Middle East. It is a DISASTER. Mere withdrawal from Iraq--without a huge diplomatic effort STARTING WITH Israel/Palestine--will not help. It will leave Israel and Iran in a nuclear face-off, with rampant turmoil and chaos all around them, and with the Arab/Muslim countries seething with hatred over the treatment of the Palestinians AND over what we did to Iraq.

The solution is to place Iraq into a temporary UNITED NATIONS protectorate, and to involve all nations in stabilizing it (--and especially to get the Bush Cartel war profiteers out of there), at the same time that we begin a new PEACE PROCESS to insure Israel's security, to compensate the Palestinians, and to engineer stability for the whole region.

Those carrying "Justice for Palestine" banners are closer to the heart of the problem than anybody. Mere withdrawal from Iraq WILL NOT MAKE US MORE SECURE! We MUST attend to the Israel-Palestine conflict if ever we want to start un-making "terrorists" in the Middle East.

Let me put this another way: Arabs and Muslims EQUATE Israel with the U.S., so that, whatever Israel does is on our head (--and vice versa--a new situation--they now have MORE reason to hate Israel because of what WE did to Iraq). Every Palestinian farmer who sees his farm land disappear behind Israel's "wall," if he's a hating man, will hate BOTH Israel and the U.S.--and will maybe have a son or even daughter who is now a prime candidate for violent jihad. And if we don't address the injustice to that family--or at least TRY to--we will one day have hell to pay, and so will Israel.

I'm just sayin'. "Justice for Palestine" in on target with regard to the Iraq war. It is not a side-issue. (--no matter what the war profiteering news monopolies would like you to believe).

Also, these countries are all very close to each other in the Middle East. Imagine if California was "walling off" Mexican-Americans, confiscating their land, bulldozing their homes and oppressing them--and the U.S. Government did nothing to stop it, and kept providing California with military and other assistance? Would the people in Mexico, and the Mexican-Americans in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Texas and other western states not be among the most agitated about this--the most prone to a "jihad" against California AND its federal government supporter? That's the situation in the Middle East. The problem is close by. Palestine is not on the other side of the world. It's right in the middle of everything.

[quiet.american]

140. Ultimately, you're preaching to the choir

You speak as though those of us who post on DU are completely unaware of the points you raise, when all of those topics you've mentioned have been, and continue to be, covered in posts to this forum.

My opinion remains that the author of this thread makes a good point. Focused effort gathers more momentum than a diluted or scattered message.

[Coastie for Truth]

159. That is actually the PNAC-American Petroleum Institute-NeoCon line

Our failed ME policy is our crack cocaine dependence on Saudi Oil.

We had a wake up call - and Reagan ignored it (after all, it was "Morning In America"), and oil man George H. Bush just drew us closer to the House of Saud, and Clinton couldn't fight the American petroleum Institute, the North American Automobile Manufacturers Association, and the UAW, and George W. Bush - forget it.

Our over dependence on the Riyadh Oil Cartel is as disastrous as our dependence on the Cali Drug Cartel - or our wink and nod on the Kabul Heroin Cartel.

What is particularly dangerous about the Riyadh Oil Cartel is that at $67+/bbl, the "monopoly rents" are not going to starving Muslims in Niger (except for mere pennies) or to establishing an entrepreneurial infrastructure in Gaza (once you get past Prince Talal's King Holdings Ltd - that's it from the Riyadh Oil Cartel, and Talal is on the outs with the Riyadh Oil Cartel). The "monopoly rents" are going to Wahabi Madrassas, to terrorists, and the terrorist associated "charities" - but not to Seeds of peace or Kingdom Holdings.

Even worse, the Riyadh Oil Cartel is stealing the mineral birth right of the Saudi proletariat - and spending it on bordellos, race horses, casinos, and "extravagances" - but not on "the people" (Saudi proletariat). That is Marie Antoinette and Czar Nicholas II style thinking. And that is who we support in the ME -- and that is who AlQaida is trying to unseat.

Oil and the Riyadh Oil Cartel constitute our failed ME policy.

The absence of an energy policy beyond "drill, drill, drill" and "tax cut, tax cut, tax cut" and "kiss King Abdullah's butt" is our failed ME policy.

On a relative scale, compared to the Riyadh Oil Cartel (and our support) - israel wouldn't (to use an old Coast Guard expression) make a good pimple on a Bosun's Mate's left butt cheek.

Let's dig deeper--

The Oil Industry Is Behind PNAC

A Likud-Sharon-AIPAC basis for PNAC has currency in the Progressive Community. But it is just plain wrong, and flies in the face of history and petroleum geology and the business models of mineral exploitation industry ("exploitation" is used in the Karl Marxist sense of the ter,)

The AIPAC-Israel-Sharon-Likud model is a little bit of an obsolete conspiracy theory. The real backers of the NeoCon Agenda are Big Oil, the armaments makers, and Carlyle. Now that oil is over $65/bbl, and gas is hitting $3.00/gallon, there is a more transparent conspiracy theory.

If you want conspiracy theories, tie the whole Iraq War into a small group of "Big Money" players with "dogs in the fight" ("big Oil" - "Armaments - Carlyle) - not a bunch of right wing psuedo intellectuals with Straussian PhD dissertations from the University of Chicago or Johns Hopkins University - but real "big money" skinny on the table-

* James A. Baker, III, Consigliere to Big Oil and to the "House of Saud" and to the "House of Bush"

* Lee Raymond, PhD, CEO of Exxon Mobil

* David O'Reilly, PhD, CEO of Texaco Chevron

* Ray Irani, PhD, CEO of Occidental Petroleum

* Lou Gerstner, CEO of Carlyle and former CEO of IBM

* Rick Wagoner, CEO of General Motors

* HRH Prince Bandar ibn Saud, former Saudi Ambassador to the US

Now, let's "connect the dots"

* The US economy needs oil like a junkie needs heroin

* While the rest of the world's auto industry gambled on smaller, lighter, more economical cars - the US "Big Three" gambled (and will apparently lose) on bigger, gas guzzling SUVs and pickups

* There is a synergistic macabre "dance of death" between the "Big Three" and "Big Oil." (Do you remember "leaded gasoline" - our cars couldn't run without it -- a patent holding company and marketing company, Ethyl Corp, owned the patents and the distribution rights. Who "owned" Ethyl Corp? GM, Exxon, and DuPont. Now its a struggling industrial detergent company in St. Louis).

* When "Big Oil" sneezes the "Big Three" get pneumonia - remember the "near death experiences" of the domestic auto makers every time there was an oil cut off or embargo.

* Actually take the time to read "PNAC" - "Program for a New American Century" - (not the blogs - but the whole thing) I don't care what the Bloggers or the Chat Rooms say---


o The primary goal in a "Post Cold War" unipolar world is to maintain a "Pax Americana"

o One goal of the "Pax Americana" is to protect oil - says so in the Adobe Acrobat PDF file itself.

o To do this, under the PNAC model, the US must actively assert hegemony over the oil lands (just like post WW I Britain's "Sykes Picot Agreement"

o Israel is an after thought - a secondary or tertiary beneficiary ("Lagniappe" as they say in French - "The Thirteenth Dough nut")

o PNAC is All About OIL and Hegemony Over Oil

o Our society, our prosperity have heretofore depended on cheap oil. This is the assumption of the PNAC document.

o And oil is becoming scarce in absolute terms (it's called "Peak Oil")

o Oil is becoming scarce in relative terms - as India and China compete for a shrinking supply of oil.


* Hence, the need to "project power" to assert hegemony over oil.

Let's analyze the

1) "PNAC = Likud" and
2) "PNAC = Big Three + Big Oil" Models" at the limit.

Ask yourself two questions (this is called "engineering sensitivity analysis" - you push one variable to zero or infinitely and tweak the others)

1) What happens to the original model if you drop Israel and AIPAC out of the picture - but leave "Big Oil" and the "Big Three" in. I would submit - no change in the current situation.

2) Now, what happens if you drop "Big Oil" and the "Big Three" out of the picture - but leave Israel and AIPAC in.

If we suddenly discovered a major (Gulf of Mexico or Persian Gulf or Iraqi or Persian or Saudi level) find of crude in our western desert or Lake Michigan or Minnestoa's "Iron Mines" -- would we be pissing American lives away anywhere "for Israel?" To ask the question shows the absurditiy. AIPAC doesn't have near the power of Big Oil or the Big Three or the UAW.

Ancient History of Petroleum Politics

Do some analytical reading for content - in a book, not a blog or web site (that's supposed to be a Progressive hidden strength):

1) A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order by F. William Engdahl

2) Sowing the Wind: The Seeds of Conflict in the Middle East by John Kay

with a description of the "Sykes-Picot Agreement"

Sykes Picot Agreement

The Sykes-Picot Agreement of May 16, 1916 was a secret understanding between the governments of Britain and France defining their respective spheres of post-World War I influence and control in the Middle East and remains much of the common border between Syria and Iraq.

The agreement was negotiated in November 1915 by the French diplomat Georges-Picot and British Mark Sykes. Picot was far more experienced and managed to get much more than he was expecting for France.

Britain was allocated control of areas roughly comprising Jordan, Iraq and a small area around Haifa. France was allocated control of South-eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. The controlling powers were left free to decide on state boundaries within these areas.

The area which subsequently came to be called Palestine was for international administration pending consultations with Russia and other powers. This area, subject to significant subsequent controversy, had the following borders:

* Southern: approximately mid way between Blah and Gaza, eastwards to the Dead Sea in a horizontal line, passing north of Beer sheba and south of He bron.

* Eastern: starting at the Dead Sea in the south it proceeded roughly due north along the river Jordan to Lake Tiberius and a few miles north of the lake.

* Northern: a line approximately west-northwest from the area just north of Lake Tiberius, passing barely south of Taft to met the sea approximately mid way between Haifa and Tyree.

* Western: the Mediterranean Sea.

This agreement is viewed by many as conflicting with the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence of 1915–1916. The conflicting agreements are the result of changing progress during the war, switching in the earlier correspondence from needing Arab help to subsequently trying to enlist the help of Jews in the United States in getting the US to join the First World War, in conjunction with the Balfour Declaration, 1917. The agreement had been made in secret. Sykes was also not affiliated with the Cairo office that had been corresponding with Sheriff Hussein bin Ali, and was not fully aware of what had been promised the Arabs.

The agreement was later expanded to include Italy and Russia. Russia was to receive Armenia and parts of Kurdistan while the Italians would get certain Aegean islands and a sphere of influence around Izmir in southwest Anatolia. The Italian presence in Anatolia as well as the division of the Arab lands was later formalized in the Treaty of Severus in 1920.

The Russian Revolution in 1917 led to Russia being denied its claims in the Ottoman Empire. At the same time Lenin released a copy of the confidential Sykes-Picot Agreement as well as other treaties causing great embarrassment among the allies and growing distrust among the Arabs.

Attempts to resolve the conflict were made at the San REM conference and in the Churchill White Paper of 1922, which stated the British position that Palestine was part of the excluded areas of "Syria lying to the west of the District of Damascus".

The agreement's principal terms were reaffirmed by the inter-Allied San REM conference of 19–26 April 1920 and the ratification of the resulting League of Nations mandates by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24, 1922.

---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement

The Sykes-Picot Agreement - which was by its explicit terms and conditions contrary to the "Balfour Declaration"

1) Was a product of the need by the UK and France to protect both oil and access - through the Suez Canal - to East Africa, the oil fields of the Middle East, and South Asia.

2) Really provided for a regime of weak warring tribal entities on the Eastern Littoral of the Mediterranean - so that the UK and France would be the "powers" and would not have their hegemony threatened.

Consider - the present hegemonical and mineral exploitive pattern. - The major powers and the mineral exploiters and the House of Saud come out ahead. The Arab Proletariat, the Palestinians, and the Israelis come out on the short end.

BTW - I HAVE ONLY BEEN IN THE (ALTERNATIVE, RENEWABLE, AND GREEN) ENERGY INDUSTRY FOR 30 PLUS YEARS.

[LincolnMcGrath]

161. How are my union brothers at fault? They do as they are told by the big 3.

The rest was a very informative post.

[Coastie for Truth]

162. I lived in Michigan - worked on the GM EV1

Got a free colonoscopy from Roger "Squeaky" Smith (the same colonoscopy everybodu on the EV1 project got).

I saw both "Roger and Me" and "Tucker" - at the double feature -- worked for me.

[LincolnMcGrath]

163. You lost me there.

[sintax]

201. By the Way- Thanx for the EXCELLENT Post

:toast:

[nofurylike]

172. #1? aren't you forgetting u.s. out of north america? eom

[eridani]

181. OK, I'll grant that Palestine is relevant--

--but can we keep the standard lefty laundry list out of it for once?

[rman]

247. What's the point of the demonstration: educate people about geo-politics,

or to get the troops out of Iraq and Bush out of the WH?

[endarkenment]

2. I ignore the folks who think they own the parade. nt.

[demnan]

3. Come anyway

I agree with you on Answer's priorities but come and make your own sign. It's too important not to make a stand.

[DBoon]

15. Go anyway - bring your own banner

It's your rally - not ANSWER's

[earthmama]

28. I might protest here in Charlotte that day

I think I might stand on a busy street corner with my sign and hope others will join me!

[tavalon]

148. That's very unfortunate

We need huge numbers in DC to make this even noticeable to our waste of time media. We need millions of people.

We don't really need you in Charlotte. Nobody is going to notice a little protest there.

[earthmama]

152. Maybe they won't notice but at least I am going something ...

PLUS several of my friends can not make it to DC and they want to do something.

[hexola]

4. Agree 100000%!!!! Does the Right fund them...?

They have to be getting thier money from the right - they know ANSWER makes us look like FOOLS!!!

[progressoid]

33. I dunno but the right seems to use them a lot as examples of

what the "radical left" is doing. Regular, middle of the road Dems were painted as radicals by RW gasbags and they used ANSWER as a the poster child.

Now, Move-on also gets a lot of flack; ANSWER seemed to get a lot during the election.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

74. I agree with your feelings about this entirely. I wouldn't go near

ANSWER with a million mile pole if I could help it.

[eridani]

183. Why not? We need to stop apologizing for our whackjob element

The Rethugs never EVER apologize for anything any of their supporters say, no matter how far off the wall.

[YankeeFan]

196. No They Don't

So very much money going to A.N.S.W.E.R. comes from some of most Left Leaning sects in the world.

The International Communist Party is a sponser for starters.
Go look their web up if you don't believe me.

A.N.S.W.E.R. is so Left Wing that this site can be considered a Freeper splinter cell.

[bryant69]

5. That's what Answer believes

It's a matter of ideological purity, if I understand them correctly.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[hexola]

7. Who cares? I wouldnt march one step with them...(nt)

[bryant69]

21. I don't know

I find a lot of their beliefs poisonous as well. On the other hand they are well organized - and they tend to show up at protests. DO you leave a protest just because they are there?

[earthmama]

25. no ...

I don't leave cause they are there ... I just don't want them to take away from the message about the war on Iraq

[Coastie for Truth]

173. They follow a hard line - extremist model

(same model as the Stalinsts and the Nazis)

1. Strict obedience to their political orthodoxy - 100% - no deviationism.

2. Infiltration of other groups.

3. Hijacking of popular fronts.

After the March in San Francisco, I have restricted myself to the Palo Alto Peace Marches, with other mature adults.

[RandomKoolzip]

6. DFA and MoveOn have been far more effective organizations.

ANSWER seems a bit scattered, as you say. I rarely pay attention to them.

[Mari333]

8. This has always been a problem imho

answer is very good at organizing events, and more power to them.But when their speakers are on C Span,I cringe. They have an agenda, which is their own, and they seem to be all over the place. They are unrepresentative of the vast majority of everyday people in the USA who are against the war in Iraq. If Joe and Mary Doe are watching them on TV, its not a good thing. They yell a lot onstage, and turn people off to the issue, the main issue, which is the lies about the war in Iraq. They are very insulated,it seems, in their own world, and dont realize they turn off the general populace of the USA, at a crucial time when people are beginning to question the war.
IMO I think speakers who are vets and military families would reach the populace of the USA far better then answer people. When they throw words around like imperialism and pepper their speeches with marxist rhetoric, people just turn the channel.

[yurbud]

9. YES--I have posted this before. They dilute effect with too many points

And I agree with nearly all if not all of their other points.

They have done a great job of putting these events together, but this everything but the kitchen sink approach can also scare off newcomers who can't understand what getting Mumia out of prison has to do with get the US out of Iraq.

You should email them this thread once it's been talked out.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[earthmama]

22. Good Idea ...

[hexola]

60. Why wouldn't the RIGHT be funding ANSWER???

They have to be dishing ANSWER money...they HAVE to be...

They would be fools not to...

Just like Susan Estrich on FOX - they exist to make fools out of us...useful idiots!!!

[geek tragedy]

178. Actually, there are enough Stalinists with money to spare apparently.

The WWP has been around for decades.

[tokenlib]

10. UFPJ seems to agree with you as well...

You should still go. United for Peace and Justice is also organizing for Sept 24--and there has been friction with ANSWER over the issue you raise. You are right--we can't have it turn into an Anti-Bush rally with everyone expressing their own "ax to grind."

Iraq is the focus--but enough of us will be there to make the point--so don't stay home.

[G_j]

19. yes, United for Peace and Justice are also organizing

forget answer, connect with UFPJ.
www.unitedforpeace.org

[livvy]

11. Hook up with the DU people going.

Go to the link at the bottom of this message. You can also check out plans in the DC forum.

[PittLib]

260. That is awesome ... thanks for the info, livvy!

I was planning to go, but was hesitant. Not anymore.

[Just Me]

12. ANSWER is only one of a gazillion organizations participating,...

,...in the Sept. 24th march. Each organization creates its own mission statement. I suggest you either go with a friend or, if you feel compelled to be part of an organization, seek out one that states a mission consistent with your own.

[hexola]

14. Unfortunately they have a way of taking over events...

and making it look like a "Free Mumia" march...

[Stephanie]

27. Exactly

They hog the mike, they bring tons of signs, they won't get off the stage. Free Mumia.

[GoneOffShore]

88. Don't want any

free Mumia. It's stringy and tough to digest.

[crispini]

94. LOL!

Thank you. :rofl:

[earthmama]

34. I think the media focus more on them

because they do make us look like fools that can not get our shit together

[Just Me]

53. The media does focus on the radical elements to MISCHARACTERIZE,...

,...the movement as a whole (which is why I consider our media much closer to being right-wing than anywhere near being liberally-biased). The VAST majority of folks who have been demonstrating the last several years are normal, average American citizens who are witnessing the worst division and domestice/foreign destruction in their lifetimes. They fear for the future of their country and their children for very valid reasons -- a manipulative, fraudulent, profiteering and abusive American "leadership" is destroying the advances of an entire century of progress.

They deserve a say in what's happening. They refuse to be rendered powerless in country that is supposed to support democracy. They are exercising the freedoms they have been taught to treasure and embrace because of the sacrifice and suffering of those before us who fought for those freedoms.

[glitch]

105. I know they do.

I witnessed it first hand. After the selection 2000 a group of about 100 people gathered for several hours on the court steps of Seattle to protest. AFAIK it wasn't organized by anyone, and people would get up on a ledge and speak their mind, one after another. All sorts of people, all sorts of ages.

A NW Cable News truck pulled up and the folks inside stayed there for about 15 minutes. Then a speaker from the communist party showed up, and the cable folks got out of their truck and filmed him speaking. When he was done, he left. And then they left.
They filmed only one speaker, the representative from the communist party, who showed up for 5 minutes said his piece and left.

They didn't leave together, but they may as well have.


Edit to add: but this isn't about corrupt media, this is about your right to express your outrage. March anyway, carry your own sign and who cares what the media reports, people are learning not to trust them anyway. You won't find a march on earth where you agree 100% with every other participant.

[BeTheChange]

71. Come on..

freeing one man is way more important then staying on a single message and getting us the hell out of Iraq.

I know she isnt with ANSWER, but this is why Medea Benjamin being in Crawford makes me nervous as hell.

It isnt that I dont agree with her on many of the issues, or ANSWER, I just acknowledge that they have been trying to do it for a long ass time with very little results.. yet Cindy, IVAW, VFP have a unified message and looks what it's doing.

[hexola]

79. Great point - ANSWER can pass out the same flyers today...

...as they did 10 years ago...no change. Static. Overbearing. Confusing.

They have to be funded by the Right...no way they arent...

[davidinalameda]

100. Medea Benjamin has a way of stealing the spotlight

she and her organizations are very media savvy, as in ANSWER

coalitions need to be built but not to the detriment of the message getting lost

[redqueen]

13. Excellent points...

I had to recommend this because it's a very important issue.

[underpants]

16. Oct. 26, 2002-Me"Who are these ANSWER people anyway?"

Another DU'er "Oh they are pretty much Maoist Revolutionaries but they, I guess, were the only ones who could get all this together"

Me"Okay I don't care"

I agree ANSWER is not the best of groups to be associated with (I don't agree with everything they say or put the weight that they put on such issues/sides) but they seem to be really well organized and/or really well funded.

[DinahMoeHum]

17. Concur. I stay away from ANSWER by walking alongside veterans

organizations, if I cannot get away from an ANSWER-sponsored event.

Otherwise, I only "do business" with United For Peace & Justice.

www.unitedforpeace.org

:smoke:

[K-W]

18. Then organize your own protest.

You are complaining because the group organizing the protest doesnt have the message you would would prefer. Which is fine, but you seem to think they have some obligation to go with your message, or that it is some huge affront to the peace movement that one of the groups that is actually out there organizing marches happens to believe that all victims of American foriegn policy deserve a voice.

If you want to focus on the Iraq war. Make your own sign about the Iraq war and go march with them adding your voice along with thier voices. Or, organize your own protest, or go to a different protest. Or organize a submarch that marches with them but has a clearly destinguished message.

You have many options to get your message out that dont involve telling other people what thier message should be after they went through the trouble of organizing a march.

[IrateCitizen]

20. ANSWER doesn't care about your concerns...

ANSWER's strategy is plain for those who wish to see it. They are purely a Leninist organization, and they want there to be a broad anti-war movement but with the leaders of ANSWER calling all of the shots. This approach is not any different from the strategies voiced by Lenin in his famous papers, "What is to be done?" and "Letters on Tactics". In short, the ANSWER folks believe in a revolutionary elite that will seize power and dictate the revolution to those below. They are the revolutionary elite, everyone else is "those below".

The DC demonstration may be a joint one between UFPJ and ANSWER. I won't go into it any further than to say that. However, if you're worried about the influence of ANSWER in such an event -- then come to DC, so that they are completely outnumbered. That way, the overwhelming majority can maintain the focus on the war in Iraq.

But don't bother calling ANSWER with your objections. They don't care about them. They're wholly convinced that they are the vanguard of the revolution, and as such they believe they know more than you do.

[Stephanie]

23. Absolutely agree with you and was just bitching about this last night

Diluting the message is exactly right. International ANSWER needs to get out of the way and new leadership needs to step in to lead the protest movement. When I go to a Cindy vigil I do not want to hear about Free Mumia, Palestine, police brutality, who's on death row, smaller class sizes. It's unbelievably incompetent and freaking ridiculous. I will not attend another event sponsored by ANSWER. They're an embarrassment to this movement.

[Burried News]

46. I share your views but I am going to follow IrateCitzens advice #20

We have to overwhelm them with numbers. We simply have to be in the streets to show that voter fraud is a real issue. There is no substitute.
Answer has been doing this crap for along time and of course a muscle solution at a Peace Rally is absurd.
The poster suggesting Vets for Peace is a good option for me - hope you can find one for yourself.

[SeanQ]

68. Groups like them have been a problem in protest organization

for a long time. When I first got active in politics in the mid-80's (anti-apartheid) I ended up trying to argue down people like those in charge of A** (hmmm .. wonder if any are the same people) at almost every planning meeting. Focus on the problem at hand, build support for that. You can have handouts for your organization and encourage people to get more information later. But you can't have an event focusing on such a wide range of controversial subjects and expect to get broad support. Out of 10 people who might have helped, 6 will disagree with at least one of the ancillary points being dragged up and wont show up.

A** probably doesn't care. But maybe other organizations will. Instead, try contacting UFPJ, or anyone else who tries to organize an event and let them know if they involve A** you will not attend. Like anyone else A** can always show up and hand out fliers. But if they are not in charge, they can not hijack (well, it's harder) the organization process and they can't stand as spokespeople for the event (though RW media will still use them for photo-ops, but WTH).

But please don't let them discourage you from getting involved! The more people who help organize and attend events that ignore A**, the less relevant they will be.

(oops, forgot to spell-check)

[PassingFair]

137. Would be nice if the #%$@*& Democratic Party...

would step up to the plate!
Just imagine!

[jonnyblitz]

213. oh please, don't hold your breath waiting for THAT one. nt

[meganmonkey]

24. I see it this way

I do understand your point, and I wish that some other organizations would take the torch and organize these kind of events. But it isn't fair to ask ANSWER to be something they are not.

You volunteered to carry their banner, so it was up to you to be sure it was something you agreed with. They aren't exactly trying to hide their agenda.

If someone else can figure out how to organize a protest where a million or more people show up, that hundreds of buses from around the country get organized to go to, that has musicians like Steve Earle perform, that can get permits to rally directly in front of the White House, that has anarchists marching alongside nuns, and you can do all this without ANSWER, then they can complain about their agenda.

Meanwhile, I'll attend their rally. And if someone else can organize something to this magnitude, please post it so I can request the vacation days.

:shrug:

[earthmama]

30. I didn't know who they where when I volunteered ...

bad on my part for not looking in to them. I just heard that there was a march and a protest agaisnt the war and they needed volunteers.

[Mairead]

103. Exactly. This is the politics of coalition that we finally figured out

during the '60s. The secret to getting the big numbers on the ground is coalition: everyone supports everyone else's agenda.

It's exactly the same issue as proportional representation vs the duopoly, really.

[Hekate]

198. Who else can do this? The women's march April 2004 did it

One million-plus women and men, busses, many different religious groups, issue groups with different points of view on the main theme, politicians and other leaders speaking, music, flyers, T-shirts, food, you-name-it.

Very well-organized, wonderful experience. One issue: women's reproductive freedom. How did they do it? Go ask Planned Parenthood, NARAL, NOW, and the other groups that co-ordinated efforts to get this done.

It can be done. It has been done.

Hekate

[WilliamPitt]

26. It's tough

Do you want a focused protest, or do you want 500,000 people to show up?

ANSWER puts butts in the seats, and they do so by throwing the door wide open to all comers. It is scattered as hell, but I'd rather have 500,000 protesters come for an important march than a few thousand who are focused.

[GOPisEvil]

29. As long as the speakers are on message, I'm cool with ANSWER.

Keep the speakers focused on ending the war in Iraq, not freeing Mumia, Palestine, Tibet or anything else, however worthy those causes may (or may not) be.

[earthmama]

31. RIGHT!!

They can get all the people they can but it needs to be focused on ONE thing at a time!

[Stephanie]

32. The 500,000 will come out for a focussed event

Only a few hardcore types are coming to these events to talk about Mumia. The other 499,990 are there to protest George Bush and is stupid-ass war. ANSWER is hijacking the rest of us and pretending that we back their agenda, which we do NOT.

[earthmama]

35. SO TRUE!!!

[meganmonkey]

38. The Mumia and medical marijuana and socialist workers union

people will show up anywhere, not matter who organizes it.

Anywhere there is a gathering of potentially liberal/progressive people, opportunists will show up to take advantage.

They will show up at the Ann Arbor Art Fair, they will show up at an anti-war march, they will show up at an electric car convention - whether or not ANSWER has anything to do with it.

What are you gonna do - ban them?

[theboss]

45. The key is to outnumber them

The typical anti-war march has about 50,000 generally sincere activists and 50,000 nutcases (Free Mumia/Free Puerto Rico/Etc). The problem is its always the same activists and the same nutcases.

What made the Civil Rights Marches matter was that it was normal, working class people taking part.

The only reason anyone in DC gets excited about left-wing marches these days is that there is a good chance you can hook up with the sophomore from Michigan State again. She comes to town for every one of these and always has a little bit too much to drink on Saturday night.

[Stephanie]

47. Of course not - let them come

But don't let them lead the way. Let someone else organize the event and choose the speakers and provide the signs. Keep the focus. Let the marginal issues (which they are in this case) stay in the margins - don't let them grab center stage.

[meganmonkey]

56. You keep saying "Let them", "Let someone else..." - but what is stopping

this figurative 'someone else' from doing it?

It's not like MoveOn or PDA or some other more accepted group is planning rallies and ANSWER is competing with them for attendees.

I am just frustrated because I have seen several people lately use ANSWER as their excuse not to go to DC, and to me that is just a cop-out and it totally discourages others who are reading the threads.

[Stephanie]

58. We need new leadership in this movement

I have attended many, many rallies in NYC where ANSWER was in charge and where the mike was hijacked by everybody and his brother who got up there to rant about Mumia, Palestine, etc etc etc.

Another group needs to be in the forefront. I don't want to attend another ANSWER event. They are not serving this movement, they are hijacking it. MoveOn, PDA, UFPJ, someone, anyone, needs to seize leadership here and shove ANSWER out of the way. They're an embarrassment, IMHO. It's not ME who is discouraging people from attending the protest, it is ANSWER that is discouraging ME from attending.

[meganmonkey]

61. UFPJ is sponsoring a march too on Sept. 24

They are the ones organizing the concert, and most of the other events. ANSWER isn't really in the forefront anyway, to my knowledge.

From their site:

As part of our effort to build the most inclusive and diverse possible mobilization, UFPJ has chosen two simple, broad demands for the weekend: End the War on Iraq, Bring the Troops Home Now! These main slogans are accompanied by five additional demands that link to specific campaigns: Leave no military bases behind; End the looting of Iraq; Stop bankrupting our communities; Stop the torture; No military recruitment in our schools.

We have chosen these overarching demands for the mobilization because we believe it is politically imperative to bring the largest number of people together right now in opposition to the war on Iraq. This September, we are seeking to mobilize all opponents of the war, no matter what their positions are on other political matters, and so we have kept our demands broad and simple. At the same time, United for Peace and Justice, as a coalition, has taken strong stances on an array of issues related to the Iraq War: opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories and U.S. support for that occupation; stopping torture and illegal detentions; preventing future “pre-emptive” wars against Iran, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba or other countries; supporting the democratic struggles of the Haitian people; and challenging U.S. nuclear hegemony by demanding the elimination of nuclear weapons worldwide.

For the September mobilization, UFPJ warmly welcomes our allies in the wide array of peace and justice movements to participate in the mobilization in ways that highlight the links between their struggles and issues and the absolute necessity to end the war on Iraq. We invite all those struggling for peace and justice abroad or at home to organize contingents in our march or feeder marches to the demonstration. The September 24 march is a powerful opportunity for labor, women, communities of color, lesbian/gay/ bisexual/transgender people, immigrants, youth and students, and many other communities to stand together and say, “We cannot make headway on any of our issues without ending the war and bringing the troops home.”

Some people have urged UFPJ to consider a joint demonstration with the Sept. 24 National Coalition, initiated by A.N.S.W.E.R., which is also organizing an anti-war protest on September 24. We take seriously the concerns from local organizers about the potential for confusion if there are two separate marches on September 24. Therefore, we have agreed to US Labor Against the War's proposal to convene a meeting with A.N.S.W.E.R. to work through logistical issues about the day, including the possibility of bringing the marches together. We are committed to working in good faith on this process. But because of our different approaches to organizing and how demands are articulated, we are not proposing a “unified” program that day. (See our May 23 memo to our member groups for a more detailed explanation.)

We urge all those who seek to bring this war to an end -- from national groups to local organizations to concerned individuals -- to put maximum effort into bringing new people and organizations into the nation's capital for September 24-26. The streets of Washington, D.C. are big enough to contain all of our events and movements that weekend. The important thing is that the streets be filled with as many people as possible, all holding the Bush Administration and Congress accountable for the continuing devastation of this illegal and unjustified war.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2966

[SeanQ]

95. !! :) please post this then as a new thread, help make

sure people know its a UFPJ event, not an ANSWER event!

[meganmonkey]

112. Done - here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4389477

[IrateCitizen]

69. Whaaaaa!

It's not ME who is discouraging people from attending the protest, it is ANSWER that is discouraging ME from attending.

As much as I'm sick of ANSWER and the goings-round with them within the antiwar movement -- and believe me, I'm sicker of this than most for reasons I'd rather not disclose -- I think I may be just about as sick of this kind of reasoning. And this post isn't just directed at you, Stephanie -- it's directed at every person on here who whines and cries about how bad ANSWER is, and how they keep them away from the demonstrations.

You know what, I can't stand ANSWER either. But they're not the main organizer of the Sept 24 protest, UFPJ is. And if you're so damned sick of what ANSWER is doing, then get involved with another group that is organizing protests -- or organize some protests yourself.

Otherwise, either go or don't go -- but don't bitch incessantly about it.

ON EDIT -- Neither MoveOn or PDA are organizing protests because neither one of them has come out clearly against the war and occupation since it started. But far be it for anyone to harp on them about that uncomfortable little detail. It just reinforces for me that people will go after elements more radical than themselves with much more gusto than they will go after those more conservative than they are.

[Stephanie]

82. Guess what? This is a discussion board. ANSWER is a problem

that needs to be discussed. Maybe you didn't hear me say that I have been to many, many, many protests in NYC at which ANSWER took a lead role. They promote an anti-war event to bring people out, then commandeer the microphone to air every complaint the left has ever had about anything, one speaker after another after another. I don't know where you live but in New York this is a well-known, much-discussed problem, and it was a problem at the event last night for Cindy. It's a practical problem that requires a practical solution - new leadership. Instructing others to shut up about it is neither constructive nor progressive.

[IrateCitizen]

83. OK then, let me say it again in a different way...

You say that we need new leadership. Are you willing to step up and help provide that new leadership, or are you waiting for others to step up and provide it for you?

If you're in the former line of thought -- great! Here's a good place to look to get started: www.unitedforpeace.org.

If you're in the latter, then I simply repeat my previous statement to which you took offense.

[Stephanie]

86. you're very patronizing

I am well aware of UFPJ, thank you very much. What organization are YOU leading?

[IrateCitizen]

91. Check your inbox (nt)

[meganmonkey]

114. How about a solution? No one wants to discuss that, I guess

Too boring or something.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4389477

[hexola]

54. Didnt they spoil the last major anti-war rally in DC

I can remember watching it on C-SPAN...it was soooo boring. And so off topic...

I can remember a few speakers that were absolute LUNATICS!!!

BOO THEM OFF THE STAGE!!!

[BeTheChange]

77. Look what people did without ANSWER last night..

look how many people made their own vigils..

If the message is pure and right, the people will come.. OH, and CENTRALLY Located.

I was amazed that it looked like almost as many people showed up for some of those vigils last night as there were at the Tonkawa Rally in Crawford on Saturday.


90k in donations - minus portapotties and NESSECITIES - sure does alot to start thinking about having some serious stuff going on at the washington Rally surrounding Cindy to drown out ANSWER

[Stephanie]

87. The rally I went to in Union Square was hijacked by ANSWER

They brought their own mike. They gave speeches. They ruined the event.

[hexola]

93. Just following their GOP marching orders...

They must be getting money from the Right...who else would benefit from this kind of crap?

[BeTheChange]

97. Then I say we start bringing bullhorns..

And talking over them. The Cindy Sheehan crowd is too fragile to be able to filter and fiber ANSWER for themselves. Alot of them are just baby protestors.. we need to focus on what brought them out.


How annoying that happened.

[theboss]

36. But ANSWER marches are not that respected where it matters

As a bit of an insider, you should know that nobody on either side of the aisle gives ANSWER any credibility. They seem to have the ability to get 100,000 people anywhere at anytime, which I admit is remarkably impressive. But it's always the same 100,000 people who always have the same 100,000 messages and who are going to vote for some fringe candidate anyway.

I think the problem lies not with ANSWER but with the fact that no other group on the Left can organize itself in any way to create an alternative to ANSWER.

I've been in DC a while and I'm no longer moved or impressed by ANSWER/anti-war/anti-WTC/anti-free trade marches. It's always the same revolving door group of young college students and old hippies.

To me, the only marches in this city that have mattered since maybe the 70s were The Million Man March and the first Promise Keepers march. The reasons where simple:

1. It was a group of people you've never seen organized before in that particular man.
2. The message - outside of whatever nonsense Farrakhan was preching during his time - was clear and concise.
3. And there were a lot of people.

That's what the left needs. If Sheehan can result in a protest where its 50,000 middle-aged women taking to the streets, well, Bush should just pack his bags. Otherwise, it's a re-run of a show we've seen before.

[earthmama]

39. that is what we need ...

we need middle america , people who would not normally do something like this to get out and get there voices heard.

[SharonRB]

49. I'm turning 56 on Sunday

and it's the first time I've ever gone to a march for anything. I was at Michigan in the late 60's, early 70's and didn't take part in any of the anti-war stuff going on at the time. I'm a late bloomer, but I'll be there.

Don't let A.N.S.W.E.R. keep you away. There are a lot of other good organizations involved in this one and the turnout is going to be fabulous. We need everyone!

[moddemny]

119. "we need middle america .....

people who would not normally do something like this to get out and get there voices heard"


Correct, right on..... and we don't need ANSWER alienating them.

[geek tragedy]

62. The problem is that ANSWER are not only anti-war, but the other side

They supported Saddam's Baathist regime, Slobo Milosevic's dictatorship, Lil' Kim's DPRK regime, etc etc.

If there's a genocidal, murderous enemy of the United States, ANSWER will cozy up next to them.

They're not a distraction; they're poisonous.

[SeanQ]

92. Do they get that many? Or are they just latching on to

whatever they think can draw a crowd, and use their money and organization experience to get in front? Would an event that could draw 500,000 for ANSWER have drawn 750,000 or 1,000,000 if a group that was more focused (but still open!) with as much money and bodies for organization was in charge?

Is the problem just that there is a dearth of organizations with ANSWERS experience and resources for putting together events?

[tavalon]

151. I'll take choice number three

Two million people and I'm willing to get those numbers no matter how we do it. ANSWER does get butts in the seats so from that point of view, I have no problem with them. OTOH, I won't march with them. But I will be in DC.

[Autonomy]

187. I attended the ANSWER march in DC

on MLK's b'day in 2003. There were probably 500k people there, and it didn't stop the war or prevent GWB from winning in 2004. Unless it translates into influence on policy and/or votes on election day, sheer numbers do not do the cause any good.

I vote for a focused coalition who will vote Democrat and be able to convince others to do the same. ANSWER will alienate a lot of the new blood to the anti-war movement, and we need exactly such a transfusion.

[LynneSin]

37. I work with United Peace and Justice and it's silly not to support this!

There are 2 groups organizing the protest. UPJ has separated themselves from ANSWER because of Answer's somewhat radical association with groups like the Socialist WOrker Party and the Free-Mumia groups. When we go to DC we don't really care about these fringe groups - it's all about ending the war.

Please, if you need for information about the upcoming protest then visit this site:

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

YOu'll find that this is the best group to work with when it comes to ending the war!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. Kudos to you & UPJ for being more tolerant and less picky than the OP. -nt

[earthmama]

42. thanks

for the link. I support this group 100%. they seem to have there screws screwed in tight. Like I posted before, I think I will do something locally here on a street corner and try to spread the message to people in Charlotte

[G_j]

43. YES, PLEASE everyone read this!!! n/t

[blondeatlast]

134. Precisely--the issue alone matters; outnumber ANSWER and problem solved. n

[Autonomy]

185. Screw ANSWER

While John Kerry was getting 'swift boated' in 2004, ANSWER coalition was sending out petitions to stop the French government from banning head scarves in their schools. Don't let this group co-opt the 'mainstream' anti-war movement, and don't let them prevent you from participating.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

217. A nice sentiment.......

...but it's like Cubs and White Sox fans showing up to the same fan festival. One is going to overtake the other, and it won't be pretty when the cameras begin to roll.

[formernaderite]

41. Well, no one had a problem with Answer before the war, when they

were one of the only groups coordinating visible protests. Of course Answer is used to this from the left. During the Kosovo war, they were also the only group protesting. They may have a Leninist backbone, but they're out there defending causes that no one else has the time for. I applaud them for NOT backing away from their messages just to fit a political bill.

[moddemny]

65. "I applaud them for NOT backing away from their messages....

just to fit a political bill."

So you don't mind if they want to free Slobodan Milosevic or support North Korea's dictator? It's not a matter of staying true to a message, it's a matter of some of their positions being an abomination. I applaud all the people in this thread who want to have no association with ANSWER.

[IrateCitizen]

78. I save my applause for those people...

... who, rather than bitching and then going home, get involved in organizations that are seeking to wrest control of antiwar events away from ANSWER.

For those that just give up and go home, I have little more than contempt or pity.

[earthmama]

101. Dude ... I am not giving up ...

I am going to do my own thing here is charlotte with friends who can not afford to go to DC. This way I do not have to hear ANSWER's hijacking and speak my own message of Ending the war in Iraq.

Maybe I might turn some head here in Charlotte

and please ... don't be so freaking rude.

[IrateCitizen]

108. If my bluntness offends you, it was not my purpose.

However, I am not going to apologize for hurting anyone's feelings over an anonymous internet discussion board. Rather, I will try to retool my message in a manner that its essence will not be lost.

I think it's GREAT you're organizing your own protest in Charlotte. That's what we need even MORE than national mobilizations, IMHO. What would be even better is if you could plug in with some other UFPJ-affiliated groups doing the same thing, and bring all the protests under one umbrella. I know that NC Peace & Justice Coalition is pretty significant, given their involvement in organizing around Fayetteville for 3/19.

[earthmama]

121. I will check in to that

I will look into UFPJ and the NC Peace & Justice Coalition to see what they are doing.

[formernaderite]

124. Are you following the case against Milosevic?

the trial is going badly....the case itself is very weak, the prosecutions witnesses are unreliable. What is ANWERS position on North Korea? That it happens to be a soveriegn nation...just like Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Tinoire]

145. You're asking for critical thought.

Give it up. You're not going to get it from someone who considers Fidel Castro and Che Guevara "war criminals".

[moddemny]

197. You not in postion to lecture people ........

on critical thought tinoire...... especially if you think che guevara was a nice guy.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

220. Aww, come on man......

......Che made a really cool shirt, man..... :P

[Tinoire]

147. Exactly.

:toast:

[Parrothead Terp]

44. I agree 100%

The last DC march seemed like more a support Palestine march then an Stop the IRaq war march. I was sick. I left in the middle. The entire time they kept trying to get people to chant Free, Free, Palestine with that damn bullhorn. The Iraq war is a great oppurtunity for them to get other people to march with them by hijacking the marches.

Another thing, I am all for having 2 states of Israel and Palestine.....but this whole right of return thing is a joke. Right of return to where? Most of the refugees living in gaza and west bank are not refugees of what is now known as Israel, but instead are refugees from Jordan and Egypt. I love how that is never brought up that Jordan exiled all these people after Arafat tried to assasinate King Hussein.

[HootieMcBoob]

48. I couldn't agree with you more

It diffuses the purpose.

And what's worse is that the right-wingers latch on to some of this stuff and use it to paint the entire anti-war effort as out of the mainstream.

[kentuck]

50. Free Mumia !

Forget about Cindy Sheehan and the present debacle going on in Iraq.

[Scout]

51. we had similar problems at the abortion clinics

the clinic escorts and pro-choice advocates would be there, then suddenly the socialists, the workers party, the anarchists or whatever group, would show up with their own agenda. Rather than joining with the escorts and the clinic personnel to prevent an attempted blockade, or just help get the clients into the building with the least amount of fuss and bother possible, 9 times out of 10 they would become confrontational and make things worse. Some of the same crowd would show up out of the blue at NOW chapter meetings and start "calling on NOW" to do this or that to serve their own agenda.

I'd rather they would just stay home, or create their own events. IMO on those occasions at the clinics they hurt the cause more than helped.

[demgurl]

52. I am riding The Peace Train and going to the protest....

I had not even heard of ANSWER until today. I would not let another group get in the way of you going to something so important. I believe that when they report this protest in the paper, they will not talk about the issues addressed by ANSWER. The public does not want to get caught up in details - a lot of them only read headlines. The headlines will read it was an anti-war protest.

There are other good people involved in this march. Please do not abandon an important cause because of one group. Our innocent men and women overseas are counting on us. They are not allowed to protest this administration or express unhappiness. It is up to us to show them as much support as we can. They are all counting on us.

demgurl

[GoneOffShore]

55. Thanks for this

I've been posting similar concerns about ANSWER's involvement in protest rallies.
The Stop the War rally here in Philadelphia before Iraq was polluted with the Free Mumia, Free Tibet, Free Palestine people and the anarchists. We left because we couldn't take it.

[TWiley]

57. The message gets skewed.

That is happening at Camp Casey, and if you remember, it happened during the Womens movement in the early 70's.

Republican operatives tried to dictate an anti-immigration agenda during a coup attempt directed at Sierra Club leadership.

I do not know if this is the deal with ANSWER, but the republi-tards seem to prefer co-opting an existing outfit instead of creating their own.

[geek tragedy]

59. ANSWER is headed up by authoritarian leftists, i.e. Stalinists

It is the traditional m.o. of groups like ANSWER (headed up by the International Action Center, a front group for the Workers World Party, a hardline Stalinist organization) to hijack worthy causes for their own dubious agendas.

http://www.infoshop.org/texts/wwp.html

"War is not the answer, but neither is A.N.S.W.E.R."

[mikelgb]

63. Hmm

That flyer makes sense to me all the things listed on the flyer are symptoms of the same problem: American Imerialism.

I can't stand when people let a little thing like just 1 of the zillions of flyers that will be at this event (and probably one of the more benign ones to boot) sway them from their goal. In my eyes they are making this flyer do what they complain it does. Blur focus.

Now if the flyer said:
Stop the War in Iraq!
Keep Tax Cuts Forever!
Renew the PATRIOT ACT!

Then I'd be going on DU to make a rukus.

[Lorien]

64. This is the reason many liberals I know don't go to protests

One heads off to an anti-Iraq war march and encounters pro-choice signs, gay pride groups, banners about global warming,etc. While my top issue may be the environment, I'm not going to bring such a banner to an anti-war march for the reasons you've given; it dilutes the message and makes us appear disorganized; as if each individual is promoting an entirely different agenda. While I fully support free speech, this is not a good way to sell a message. Success does indeed breed success; hopefully we WILL hold rallies and marches for all the other pressing issues; but for now we need to use the momentum Cindy Sheehan has given us to end BushCo's blood and profits fest in Iraq.

[IrateCitizen]

72. Then those liberals need to get involved in the organizing process...

Although I realize that the grunt work of organizing is often left to more radical elements and that liberals simply want to show up, participate, and then bitch and moan about everything that was wrong with the event, it doesn't have to be that way.

If you don't like how things are done, then do something to get involved and change it. Join up with a member group of UFPJ, for example.

And for the record, I can't stand ANSWER -- they are a purely authoritarian left organization, and as someone who subscribes to Critical Marxist theory, I have little patience for authoritarianism of any stripe. However, I will say that ANSWER and the authoritarian left, along with left-progressives and other assorted left-radicals have done a helluva lot more to organize and speak out against this war and occupation than all of the liberals who bitch and moan about how fucked up it all is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. I do, I have, don't preach to the choir

that said ANSWER is poisonous

[IrateCitizen]

75. My post wasn't directly addressed to you...

First off, thanks for whatever grunt work you have done to help in these matters.

Second, I agree with you that ANSWER is poisonous.

Thirdly, simply dropping out will do nothing to wrest control away from them.

Fourthly, if you're from the West Coast, then I understand -- as ANSWER has a death-grip on the antiwar demonstrations out there, and UFPJ has had trouble making headway. However, here on the East Coast, things are a little different.... ;-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. good to know and yes I am in the West Coast

though at last night's vigil there were nowhere to be seen

;-)

Which was good

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Why do yuo think I usually avoid any demonstration

where ANSWER happens to be present? Yuo are not alone, when they told Rabi lerner that he could nto speak in San fran Because he was a Jew I went WTF OVER? After all Lerner has done far more for Israeli Paletinian understanding than ANSWER will ever do

[earthmama]

104. WHAT???

I did not know that. Jeez!

[Tinoire]

154. There was more to it than that...

Out of respect for you, I will dig up the information I have on that because I know what kind of a fair person you are.

It had nothing to do with him being a Jew. Two other Rabbis, David Cooper and Pam Frydman-Baugh, who hold views similar to Lerner's were invited by ANSWER to speak.

The groups forming the antiwar coalition had an agreement that none of the coalitions would propose speakers who had publicly attacked any of the other coalition groups which Lerner had done in the NYT and in his e-mails.

--

On edit: Here you go & it's exactly what the guys at Jews for Peace explained to me when this all happened because I wasn't too thrilled until I looked into it.

Dear Leo Casey,

ANSWER is not the cause of Michael Lerner not being invited to speak on Feb. 16th in S.F. Four coalitions are co-sponsoring the demonstration here (Bay Area United Against War, International A.N.S.W.E.R., Not in Our Name Project, and United for Peace and Justice) and all four agreed at an early meeting of our Liaison Committee that no speaker who has publically attacked any of the four coalitions would be given a platform on Feb. 16th. We were all united on that. We are unified in opposing the war on Iraq and that is the message we want to present on Feb. 16th. Inviting someone to speak who has publically attacked any of the sponsoring groups would not be helpful in building the kind of unity in action necessary to stop this war.

Yours truly,
Carole Seligman
Bay Area United Against War
(one of the four co-sponsoring coalitions)

http://www.geocities.com/stuart323_99/documents_from_anti-war_movement.htm

[GoneOffShore]

257. Interesting that you posted the link

But didn't bother to post the follow up.
Here is a letter from Leo Casey replying to Carole Seligman, titled: It Is Wrong to Exclude Lerner, "ANSWER is best possible tool for discrediting the entire anti-war movement"

"Dear Carole:

First, let me clear up what may be a minor misunderstanding. This petition was not mine, although I did pass it on to a few people. I say so not to distance myself from it; to the contrary, I gladly added my name to it. But I do think that the author of this petition, Michael Berube, should receive proper credit for putting together what is a very necessary statement on this matter.

International ANSWER/Workers World Party is not simply a deep, profound embarassment to this anti-war movement; it is the best conceivable tool for discrediting the entire anti-war movement. If I were a conservative hawk sitting in my editorial room, I could not conceive of a better way of besmirching the anti-war movement than to have at its very center, leading and organizing demonstrations, an utterly bizarre authoritarian sect-cult, Trotskyists morphed into Stalinists, which gleefully endorsed the shooting down of pro-democracy Chinese students and workers at Tiananmen Square, which sings the praises of the nepto-Stalinist regime of North Korea and which supports the Iraqi regime. Now I would have the added benefit of other anti-war organizations silencing those who criticized such reprehensible politics.

In the name of unity, you say that not only must we accept this state of affairs, but that we must silence those who criticize it. That is appalling. No one has demanded for the Workers World Party to be excluded from demonstrations; the call has been simply to place them in a position proportionate to their numbers, which barely break into three digits.

If this anti-war movement fails, a not inconsiderable portion of the responsibility for that failure will rest with those who were willing accomplices in its hijacking by the Workers World Party.

Leo Casey"

Everytime ANSWER shows up at a demo, I leave. Their Leninist top down message manages to alienate more people than it brings to the table. And personally, I don't agree with their take on the Israeli/Palestinian situation. They seem to want to drive Israelis into the sea rather than looking for a just solution to the problem.
And they just love Mumia - who, I believe did shoot that policeman.

[Caleb]

76. Puerto Rico?

:wtf:

[manic expression]

80. I disagree

we need to fight EVERY wrong. I don't care if it might be "too radical" for others. That march is for ending injustice everywhere, but Iraq is the focal point. Palestine, Haiti and other places will not get any attention if we try to focus on only one issue.

Just my opinion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. ANSWER is right. Neo-colonialism is the problem.

You don't want to face the whole problem? Take your own banner.

The rest is just red-baiting.

[IrateCitizen]

89. ANSWER would be the new boss, same as the old boss...

Look, "the poster formerly known as bandera" ;-), I'm all for exposing the evils of neocolonialism. But it's folly to think that ANSWER is somehow interested in any kind of a free future for peoples of the world.

ANSWER is a Leninist organization, run according to Leninist principles. Its leadership believes itself to be the vanguard of the revolution, the party elite that Lenin said was to direct the changes below from above. They've supported Slobodan Milosevic and Kim Jong Il quite openly. If they seized power, you could bet your bottom dollar they would shut you and I out as quickly as the right-wing imperialists.

I don't care much for the self-professed "liberals" who do nothing to help organize events but bitch and moan about things that should have been done differently. Likewise, I have no patience for authoritarian leftists who have repeatedly shown themselves to be completely and utterly untrustworthy, and will readily abandon previous promises to other co-organizers in order to further their personal agenda at the expense of the broader movement.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

96. You seem to have a lot of inside information on ANSWER.

Do you really think that the "Leninists" of ANSWER have the wherewithall to "seize power" and dictate from the politboro?

ANSWER speaks out about neo-colonialism as the wider problem, which is more than most groups do.

This same old redbaiting disrupted the Civil Rights, Labor, and anti-war movements before.

I may not agree with all their stances but I'll be happy with a Popular Front against the war and colonialism.

[hexola]

98. What is "redbaiting" ??? nt

[IrateCitizen]

109. It's the association of dissenters with "communists"

It's a favorite tactic of the RW. Just look at what reactionary commentators are saying about Cindy Sheehan being "far left" and such as an example.

Except WRT ANSWER, it's not inaccurate to associate them with hard-core communists -- it's just a simple fact that they are a Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist organization, for better or worse.

[geek tragedy]

170. But, the people behind this group ARE Communists.

Stalinist pukes, to be exact.

Google: IAC ANSWER WWP

[IrateCitizen]

106. I have a bit of inside info on them...

First point, they don't have the wherewithall to "seize power" in society-at-large. However, they do have the discipline and ruthlessness necessary to seize power within the broader antiwar movement, for example, and use it for their own questionable aims.

Second point, I am all for speaking out against neocolonialism, as I abhor it in all aspects. However, we should remember that while we are in desperate need of a left alternative in this country, we should not be so quick to embrace an authoritarian left alternative such as ANSWER as the solution.

I'm a big fan of Adorno, Horkheimer and Marcuse (Critical Marxism) -- and one of the important things to realize based on their basic principles is that any kind of real left alternative -- not the Democrats, but a real left -- in this country falls outside the bounds of "acceptable discourse". Therefore, it is important to place our focus on the best strategy. In order to advance a viable left alternative, we need to seize opportunities to educate people about what leftist politics really means. In short, we need a hook.

The war against and occupation of Iraq provides that hook, as the Vietnam War did 35 years ago. Therefore, that needs to be the immediate focus. But once you've hooked them, you can look at the broader issue of neocolonialism -- but be careful you don't overload them and make their heads explode, otherwise they'll run away. It has to be a gradual process.

ANSWER seems to want to skip that first step and just go for the jugular on the second. It may impress the members of their vanguard along with the single-issue groups on Mumia and Palestine, but it does little to forge a true left alternative in this country. And in order to successfully battle neocolonialism, we NEED that viable left alternative. The Democrats are part of the problem in this instance, and always have been.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

116. We agree..somewhat.

What bothers me about the ANSWER bashing is the similarity to what happened in the anti-war movement of the '60s/'70s. The idiotic fragmentation inspired by "purists" of whatever leftist stripe. Trots, Maoists, Communists, Socialists, etc. Fueled by rightwing accusations of "treason", "commies", "fellow-travelers", and the usual tripe.

As an anarchist, I'm not overly fond of any organization that wields power, and think that all should be held accountable. Particularly the "moderates" who forever promote "caution" and fear being tagged as leftists.

I see posts like these as attempts to fragment the left into warring factions by redbaiting.

[moddemny]

117. Inside information?

....they are only at every protest sticking all the communist bullshit in your face.

[IrateCitizen]

120. Communist bullshit? Your red-baiting is not necessary.

Could you please enlighten us as to what precisely is meant by "communist bullshit"? Or do you, like many members of the RW and corporate media, use the term "communist" as a label to throw around and see if it sticks to anything you don't agree with?

I have grown to distrust those who fling such labels around without any sense of definitions just as much as I have come to distrust authoritarians on the left and the right.

[moddemny]

125. Redbaiting is used to associate

....people with hardcore communism who may not necessarily be ..... ANSWER is openly supportive of hardcore communist dictatorships, so I am not redbating, it's in their literature and I have it shoved in my face everytime I go to a protest. I make no apologies for my attitude towards ANSWER. Because ANSWER is against Bush I am suppose to be in favor of the Tianamen Square massacre? Bullshit was a polite term.


You said it yourself in reply #72

"And for the record, I can't stand ANSWER -- they are a purely authoritarian left organization"


Reply #109

"Except WRT ANSWER, it's not inaccurate to associate them with hard-core communists -- it's just a simple fact that they are a Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist organization, for better or worse"


I'm a little puzzled, it almost seems like we agree. (Oh I forgot your a critical marxist so you get ticked off when people call communism bullshit......... good look trying to rehabilitate communist ideology, I hope your new utopia doesn't make a wrong turn somewhere and impose another nightmare on some unwitting populace.)


"Or do you, like many members of the RW and corporate media, use the term "communist" as a label to throw around and see if it sticks to anything you don't agree with?"

Yada, yada, yada,

For the recored last few elections I voted Clinton, Gore, Kerry, because I have a problem with some communist dictatorships and their open supporters I get labeled being a member of the right wing. This is getting boring , I have heard it all before. Talk about flinging labels. That's the problem with ANSWER they play right into the right wing arguments aside from the fact their many of their positions are lunacy in and of themselves with or without whatever the right wing makes of them.

[geek tragedy]

168. ANSWER=International Action Center=Workers World Party

The WWP is a STALINIST organization.

If you belong to ANSWER or IAC, you're working for people who support Kim Jong Il, Slobo Milosevic, the Rwandan genocide, and used to support Saddam Hussein.

These are people who applauded when Soviet tanks rolled through Hungary.

They're fucking tankies, and they're worse than any PNAC'er out there. The only difference is that the wankers don't have any power.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

150. Eek!! Eek!! The commies are gonna get you!!

Quick, call Joe McCarthy and J.Edgar!!

[dooner]

90. I agree with you, and have felt the same thing at anti-war events

I think we need to focus and fight one battle at a time. Stopping our war on Iraq is the most important thing we can do. Once we gain more footing, we can fight the other battles. I understand it's all related. But strategically, we can't fight this thing standing under a big umbrella.

[G_j]

99. BTW, CINDY IS ASKING PEOPLE TO GO TO DC!

damnit! every time there is big demo, there is SOMETHING that inspires people to attempt to discourage others from going.

There were even ppl on here telling folks not to go to Crawford.

this is soooooo old!!

[wildeyed]

102. I got the same flier.

Actually, I got an email weeks ago via one of the local political emails. And my reaction was the same. I want to protest the war in Iraq. I either don't know about or disagree with all the other bullet points this organization puts forth. I do not want to march with these people because I don't understand or support their agenda.

Unfortunately, they are the only group I have heard about running a bus to DC for the event. So my options are a. don't go, b. go with the ANSWER group but bring my own sign, c. drive myself (too far, ack!) d. organize a carpool or van of my own., e. do a local event.

I haven't really decided what to do yet.

[Tinoire]

107. Sounds more like your problem than ANSWER's

But your posts is right on schedule. Anytime a big march is planned these posts show up like clockwork.

Don't like ANSWER? Organize your own vaccuum group and see how many people you attract.

I'm writing to A.N.S.W.E.R. today to express my admiration of all they've accomplished and to thank them for having been/being at the forefront of the antiwar movement despite the not-so-very progressives who think justice can sit around waiting to be taken up one cause at a time.

LMAO.

- Support Palestinian people right of return
- End Colonial Occupation: Iraq, Palestine, Haiti
- US out of the Philippines
- US out of Puerto Rico

NO JUSTICE. NO PEACE!!!

[jonnyblitz]

111. i know....i was waiting for the standard pre -march red baiting

that ALWAYS goes on around here to commence and here ya go. I suppose we should be proper and wait for the DLC to spearhead a march before we participate. SNORT. :eyes:

[geek tragedy]

165. It's not red-baiting if they're actual Stalinists who support the vile

regime in North Korea.

They're actual authoritarian leftists who seek the destruction of our society.

[Warren Stupidity]

199. So come to the parade, ignore the idiots and outnumber them.

They are only 'in charge' if you let them be in charge.

[jonnyblitz]

207. well, i have never heard them proclaiming their support

at all the ANSWERS events I have attented so I guess I will just have to take yours and David Horowitz's word for it.

[geek tragedy]

230. Check out this website:

http://www.authoritarianopportunistswhocozyuptogenocidaldictators-forpeace.org/

or this link:

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php

or this link:

http://slash.autonomedia.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/03/1946241&mode=nocomment&

or this link:

http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/10/16/protest/index_np.html
or this link (which is very harsh on establishment liberals as well):

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-11/11dominick.cfm

or this link:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2527

There are two types of people who deny ANSWER's authoritarian leftist roots and coziness with dictators: those who are ignorant, and liars.

[Stephanie]

113. It's a big problem for many, many people, not just the OP

Everyone I know who marched & went to rallies in New York before the Afghanistan AND the Iraq wars were disturbed by this. We came out for an anti-Bush, anti-War rally and got bombarded with dozens of other issues from dozens of speakers. Police brutality, the death penalty, Haiti, Palestine, Free Mumia. It's counter-productive. These events should be focussed like a laser beam on George Bush and his criminal war-mongering. Otherwise the numbers will dwindle as ANSWER continues to alienate people who did not sign up for their agenda.

[Tinoire]

135. All if that IS partof the US' Criminal Warmongering!

All of it. You can't separate the issue of the war against Iraq from the occupation of Palestine. Bin Laden clearly listed that as a main reason for the attacks and it's been a very sore point with the Arab world for decades. It's also a very sore point for an awful lot of Progressives who dislike our little interventions that have a way of harming people all over the world.

Police brutality, Haiti, innocents in jail... all of those issues are tied to warmongering, exploitation and criminal appropriation of other people's resources. There's nothing counter-productive about it. What IS counterproductive is people who think that justice in places like Haiti & Palestine should take a back seat for the time being.

Justice delayed is injustice. Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. Those whose sense of justice is so delicate that it gets overwhelmed when confronted with the long laundry list of US crimes against other peoples and other nations should just form their own group instead of trying to revamp a group that's a lot more consistent in its thinking. Maybe the DLC or the DNC could help Bush-haters form their own protests? That way all the the ANSWER haters who seem to care more about protesting Bush than protesting what Bush stands for won't feel so uncomfortable?

[Stephanie]

166. It's bad strategy - it's bad marketing. It's undisciplined and alienating.

It's information overload and it DOES NOT SERVE US. Start by turning the tide against the war and the warmonger. FOCUS on that. You can't educate the whole population in the Howard Zinn version of history overnight. It is a BAD STRATEGIC MOVE to let ANSWER lead the protests.

[Tinoire]

189. And yet they led them for 3 years. Now those who weren't involved

who didn't get involved want ANSWER to get out of the way so they can "lead"? Stephanie this is too laughable for words. If they wanted to lead, they should have been here 5 years ago. The tide against the war and the warmongerer started 5 years ago, 5 years ago when small groups of us were standing on street corners with our little "Justice for Palestine" signs because we knew where things were headed.

Sorry. No. Won't step out of the way.

Let those who have a better strategic move start their own group instead of trying to hijack and re-package ANSWER. Don't you think this is just a tad presumptous of the johnny-come lately's to the movement?

Truly, I do not understand. Don't like ANSWER? So huge in numbers that ANSWER and its supporters should care? Form a new movement! Nobody is stopping anyone.

Also consider that people get a fast education at ANSWER rallies, where Howard Zinn and Chomsky books go like lemonade on a hot day. The education people have gotten at those rallies is one reason the progressive movement is growing so rapidly. People hunger for knowledge in this country & justice can't be kept waiting- either Haiti, Palestine, Iraq or Iran. This is no time to slow down for the armchair critics. The tide turned against the war and the warmonger years ago when the more astute people in this country were already focusing, you want them to slow down now? Whatever for? For critics just waking up? Wouldn't make any sense.

Anyway, I'll certainly be at the next ANSWER marches with what Mr. Geek called my "creepy Stalinoid friends". The day you form your own group and it addresses more than just Bush's bad handling of the war, I'll be there with bells on my toes. Want a new movement? Form one but working to weaken the strongest antiwar coalition in this country only helps the right-wing and the status-quo crowd.

[moddemny]

118. Oh yeah, it's one big conspiracy.......

You can't see how some people would be disgusted by an organization that supports slobodan milosevic or kim jong il? earthmama is more less right on target and it's good that he brought the topic up.


You seem to get a kick out of spreading disinformation tinoire, still spreading stories about how Clinton intervened in Bosnia and Kosovo over a pipeline and all the other typical ANSWER bullshit? (I don't mean to bring up a topic from another post........ but you sounded like a typical ANSWER supporter in that delusional debate ------- for other posters who are reading this , no I am not usually this mean, I just know a little bit about the balkans because I have met many families from Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, and Kosovo who have witnessed or experienced ethnic cleansing first hand....... ANSWER and many of its supporters think the NATO intervention was one big conspiracy and that Slobodan Milosevic should be set free.)

"I'm writing to A.N.S.W.E.R. today to express my admiration of all they've accomplished"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... What a joke. While you sending them a them a thank you note pass on a collective f*ck you from the rest of us.


Note: If a conspiracy does exist somewhere, it's that ANSWER is an organization specifically set up to discredit the progressive movement. It's still hard to believe people actually buy into some of ANSWER's loony positions.

[Tinoire]

136. Lol, You still enjoying your stay here? n/t

[moddemny]

138. Am I enjoying my stay?

Or did you mean something else by your question?

This thread in particular is very refreshing, I see lots of rational posters coming out against ANSWER, true progress being made for real progressive causes.

[geek tragedy]

167. Are you enjoying your stay, comrade?

You see, unlike your Stalinoid creepy friends in ANSWER, DU doesn't believe in throwing people in gulags for dissent.

ANSWER is ultimately an organization that hates democracy. They and their supporters can go straight to hell.

[Tinoire]

175. Sheesh. I'm no comrade of yours Geek.

You see, unlike your creepy Likudniki friends, ANSWER doesn't believe in dropping one ton bombs on apartment buildings in the middle of the night, stealing people's olive orchards, or shooting kids in the head.

Those creepy Likudnikis hate democracy. They and their supporters can go straight to hell.

Remind me again why you writhe at the mention of ANSWER. Comrade.

[geek tragedy]

177. Because ANSWER is run by Stalinists.

ANSWER and its parent organization, the loathsome International Action Center, itself a front for the Workers World Party, are long-time supporters of Slobo Milosevic, Saddam Hussein, and Kim Jong Il. So you can spare me the dishonest bullshit about ANSWER having any kind of humanitarian value system.

Your comments about me being a Likudnik reveal that you are either completely ignorant as to what I have posted on Israel/Palestine or you are completely ignorant as to what Likudniks actually believe.

To give you some idea why I piss on the WWP and its followers, read this article they published defending the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

http://www.workers.org/ww/tienanmen.html

They are nothing but tankie scum. They and their followers aren't progressives. Period.

[Tinoire]

179. That's a bunch of garbage and you know it

It's not even worth getting into any sort of a thoughtful discussion with you. You see, my "creepy Stalinoid friends" and I have more worthwhile things to do than get into juvenile pissing contests with people trying to weaken the antiwar coalition. And I reiterate, your creepy Likudniki friends and their supporters can go straight to hell.

By the way, I don't recall calling you a Likudnik- why gasp, that would be against DU rules. But I have seen what you have posted and it's been none too reassuring. Of course I'm a "creepy Stalinoid" or as one DUer who frequents the I/P forum so charmingly put it, a "Leftist retard", so what do I know? My head is all muddled with John F. Kennedy's Attorney General's talk, yes that would be the great Ramsey Clark himself, talk of justice and equality FOR ALL.

I own up to America's crimes and want full restitution made to the victim's of those crimes be they American Indians, Haitians, Latin Americans. The only pro-Israel supporters I have any time for are those who own up to Israel's crimes and want FULL restitution made to the Palestinians, to include the indisputable right of return.

Workers in Tiannamen Square. What a friggin laugh to see the sudden concern for workers from the anti-ANSWER crowd. Funny how people who pull out that article (yes it always the exact same article everytime the anti-ANSWER crowd shows up) don't care about workers' rights in Palestine or Haiti. Phooey on the charade, for shame on the exploiting classes and expoitative governments and double-shame on those who seek to break apart the antiwar coalition because they've personally made 1001 exceptions to justice. They are nothing but tankie scum. They and their followers aren't progressives. Period.

[geek tragedy]

227. "the great Ramsey Clark "

Who said authoritarian leftists didn't have a sense of humor?

Sorry if the truth--that the WWP, which runs the IAC, which in turn runs ANSWER, are hardcore authoritarian Stalinists--stings a little.

And you again wallow in pig ignorant rhetoric about Likudniki. I think the Likudnik agenda is bad for Israel, and that being pro-Israel means being anti-Likud.

But those who follow Stalinists were never very good about nuance.

I'll repeat it: the pro-DPRK, pro-Saddam, pro-Milosevic activists aren't progressives. They're reactionary, morally depraved cretino-leftists who deserve at least as much scorn as any Neocon on the planet.

[moddemny]

194. "ANSWER doesn't believe in dropping one ton bombs on apartment buildings"

....but they support a north korean dictator who imprisons hundreds of thousands of people in 8 or 9 major concentration camps. Many of them family members of political dissidents. What a utopia.

so much for "Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere" (gem of a reply #135)

[geek tragedy]

241. Don't forget that Ramsey Clark is also the ally of Slobo, Saddam,

and the butchers of Rwanda.

Quite a group of progressives, those IAC'ers.

[Warren DeMontague]

123. Right. Anyone who doesn't sign on to the whole laundry list of ANSWER's

agenda isn't a "real" progressive.

And of course, you don't "see" the problem.

ANSWER doesn't speak for me any more than PETA does; but I'll be damned if I'll let them keep me away from protests. I went to the Feb. 2003 big anti-Iraq war protest in San Francisco, and there was one group holding a big "Free Palestine" banner. They looked real lonely.

My take? If it's an anti-Iraq war protest, the protest should be about the IRAQ WAR. As far as I'm concerned, using it as a springboard to try to hijack the message, and assume everyone shares your position on Mumia or the Right of Return is bullshit, frankly, and yes it pisses a lot of us off.

But, of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[meganmonkey]

115. Everybody PLEASE chill..

ANSWER isn't even organizing the majority of the major events.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4389477

[earthmama]

122. well maybe they are not organizing it ... BUT

they will be there to try and hijack it.

*How many speakers are speaking from them?

[meganmonkey]

127. Did you read the links on that post?

Check their websites. There are many events. They are organizing a rally. So is someone else. Go to the one organized by UFPJ (see my sig line) and there won't be ANYONE from ANSWER. If you go to the ANSWER events, then there WILL be people from there.

This whole thread is based on misinformation which is much easier to argue about than the truth.

I, for one, want to encourage people to go to DC and protest. That's all I want to do. I posted a thread that cleared this all up, and almost every response on it was by ME, so I let it sink because some people seem to prefer arguing over finding out the facts and solving a problem.

You talk about the 'ANSWER problem', I talk about the ANSWER solution.

I hope to see everyone in DC.

:patriot:

[earthmama]

129. NOT misinformation

I read it. ANSWER will still be there and they are known to hijack protest for there cause.

This thread is not based on misinformation. I received the flier and have been to an anti-war protest where ANSWER did do what I claimed they did.

Is this your first event?

I am not saying people shouldn't do ... I said that I AM NOT GOING because of this and I will plan a local event here.

[meganmonkey]

132. I guess that is the drawback of free speech

ANSWER has the right to organize something on the same day as UFPJ. I still recommend that you read both of their statements about the way they are holding seperate events. I don't understand why you think they will hijack the UFPJ events when they are having their very own event. I know the history, and so does UFPJ. That is why UFPJ is having a seperate event.

And no, this is not my first event. The first time I went to DC to protest this war was in October 2002, 6 months before it started. I went to 2 others after that, and several in Lansing and Ann Arbor, MI.

I don't think I can make myself any clearer. I wish you wouldn't keep repeating that ANSWER will hijack, since they are holding their own rally. But I can't stop you from doing that. I only hope that others read the fine print and don't get dissuaded by what you are saying, since it doesn't fit with the facts.

I am sorry you are choosing not to attend, I hope that there is a good event in your area.

Peace.

on edit: Please at least click on the link in my sig line so you can see the flier for the UFPJ events - which is NOT THE SAME as the ANSWER events

[earthmama]

158. well the media and the right will have a field day with that ...

"look at the liberals, can not decide what to protest so they have 2 separate protest"

So is there going to be a line drawn between the crowds ....

This is exactly the problem. Why should there be 2 separate protest? Why can there be one for ONE CAUSE.

Here is my free speech ... ANSWER HIJACKS PROTEST. That is what I strongly believe and think and I can say it.

[jonnyblitz]

235. ANSWER is the one who coordinates many of these

how is that they hijack their own project ?!? that makes NO sense. :crazy:

[geek tragedy]

238. They hijack the cause.

I doubt you could find 100,000 people in the entire country who actually support ANSWER's Stalinist agenda. But, they try to coopt the larger antiwar movement.

Yeah, they're good at organizing things. And Mussolini made the trains run on time.

[Throd]

128. When Ramsey Clark called Kim Jong Il

and Slobodan Milosevic "victim's" during a KPFK interview, I realized that A.N.S.W.E.R. was not the horse to hitch my wagon to.

[Swamp Rat]

156. Link and context please. n/t

[loudsue]

130. I'm concerned about WHERE a.n.s.w.e.r. is getting all their $$$$

As a fan of the Market Watch threads, and a fan of "All The President's Men" movie, I still see that it's MONEY that supports a lot of the more powerful NON-GRASSROOTS organizations.

This CINDY / CAMP CASEY rally and vigil has been supported by GRASSROOTS .... individuals putting their money where their heart is.

The press CANNOT ignore that type of support. They have no problem ignoring anything that ANSWER does. There were prolly 500,000 people at the anti-Iraq war rally put on by ANSWER, but the media only gave it credit for a few thousand.

ANSWER is NOT grassroots, and right now, in order to sway the fence-sitters, we need home-grown grassroots supporters, and carefully chosen high-profile speakers, saying things that the "common man" can quickly identify with.

ANSWER is totally incapable of doing that. They are like a German tank, and stand out like a sore thumb, against the backdrop of what middle America can subscribe to.

CINDY, on the other hand, is someone almost everyone in America, who is a decent, law-biding person, can stand behind with dignity and courage -- courage, because RIGHT IS ON OUR SIDE... beyond reproach ....even though the extreme right wing is going to try that... and they will, likewise, alienate middle America by showing their asses.

Both ANSWER and the extreme right are very well financed. We have known for a long time that the Powers that Be are well known for financing both (extreme) sides of a conflict. How can ANYONE trust them?

But it's time for middle America (middle Earth) to rise up out of the ashes, and turn our backs on both noisy extremes. We need to start turning our backs on the ANSWER crowd, when they take their people to the mike on the podium. We need to have a mike and stage set up at another location, and plan for some DECENT people, of high profile or just great speakers, to step up to the mike to rally the grassroots toward the end of the war, and toward (hopefully) toward the long overdue impeachment of a dangerous cabal; a dangerous cabal guilty of war crimes, torture, genocide, treason, lying to the congress & the people, and grand theft of our tax dollars, until we haven't a pot to pee in.

We need to clean house on both sides right now, if we're going to save this world from the danger that confronts us. The middle needs to rise up, and stand for what is sensible, decent, truthful, and supports life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all people. Now THAT is an idea whose time has come, and which many, many people can get behind.

"Nuke the rag-heads" and "free Mumia" aren't going to do that. They're, neither one, in touch with reality.

[autorank]

131. Solved the problem: I'm showing up to protest Iraq...you should too!

ANSWER isn't the official sponsor, we're all just going to show up and march. Somebody has a permit, who cares. The 1/6/05 Rally and March supporting voting rights and Boxer's exception on Ohio electors wasn't even officially approved. Everything was fine. The DC Police know how to handle these things and they'll do their job. We just have to show up. Plus I'm goint to the DU meet up afterwards. Screw ANSWER for trying to hi-jack this but who cares.

Oh, and anticipate a boatload of people from the DC area there. We've had enough!

[blondeatlast]

133. ANSWER's a pain in the ass, true. Best to outnumber them with the

important message.

Look through the photos from the peace vigil last night; what you see are ordinary--very ordinary--people coming together, heart and soul, for all the right reasons.

It'll happen again September 24th. Don't give ANSWER a second thought, IMHO.

[mom cat]

139. They provide good bus service to the protests....Are you going to drive

me there? We should be focusing on our real enemy, the neo-cons and those who want to destroy freedom.

[Tinoire]

142. These posts show up like clock-work anytime there's going to be a protest

None of the ANSWER haters have any intention of driving people anywhere to protest squat. They would prefer you stay home and send a few pennies to the DNC so that our Democratic reps can make a few tired speeches and maintain the illusion that they're representing us.

When we take to the streets in large numbers, that illusion is destroyed. Can't have that. Got to pretend that the minions agree with the status quo- agree with the war (just don't like the way Bush is handling the war), agree with the occupation of Palestine (just don't like the way the Palestinians won't roll over for the occupation), agree with kidnapping the legally-elected President of Haiti (just don't like the fact that Bush did it so brazenly), etc... you get the idea.

Like clockwork these posts show up before every big march.

It's hilarious.

[LincolnMcGrath]

149. It's Hilarious and sad at the same time.

I even heard early on from one of 'our guys' that Crawford was turning into an a n s w e r protest. Very soon after, the fRight wing talking bobble heads were repeating it to the masses!

[Tinoire]

155. I heard that too lol!

What is it about people not wanting to sit in the back of the bus that gets those in the front of the bus all riled up? ;)

ANSWER formed a coalition WITH United for Peace and Justice & other groups.

What is it about a coalition of antiwar groups working together that gets people so riled up that they work so feverishly to try to weaken that coalition? Hmmmmm, could it be?... Say it isn't so!

[moddemny]

193. There you go making stuff up again ..........

.....tinoire, implying these posts are some type of conspiracy to discredit protests. If my reply sounds harsh it is because you are implying the other posters here want people to stay home, which is the farthest thing from the truth. You sound like a typical ANSWER drone. No one is asking people to stay home and your implying so is pure fanatsy. People should go to protests and at the same time distance themselves from ANSWER as much as possible because ANSWER does not in many ways represent the values of most Americans or of any true progressives. If you can't see what alienates people from ANSWER thats your problem.

[Warren Stupidity]

200. exactly. And it is the usual gang of suspects too. eom.

[earthmama]

204. Usual Gang ???

I am no part of a gang ... new here found this place a couple months back ....

i think some one is a little paranoid

[Warren Stupidity]

212. Let me rephrase that.

There is a pattern in the posting here on specific topics that makes it fairly clear to me that we have quite a few agents of the darkside doing their thing. That does not mean that everyone posting with a corresponding viewpoint is an agent of the darkside. It could also mean, as you say, that I am just being paranoid.

As others have pointed out, before every big demonstration we get the outbreak of the 'the commies are running the parade' virus. While some may be expressing their honest concern over the views of some groups attending and/or organizing the demonstrations, others are simply wreckers hoping to lower the turnout. Difficult to say who is who. I look for patterns in postings, which names keep showing up, over and over, spouting questionable positions. Then again, as you say, I could just be paranoid.

[moddemny]

254. Before you go accusing other people.......

..... from being from the darkside ( I won't even ask who you are accusing).......... you might want to be introduced to a slightly different perspective...............

This is thread is about ANSWER not protesting in general......... People who are criticizing ANSWER may be so determined to defeat Bush that they don't want some group of fringe idiots undermining their efforts........ (aside from the fact that supporting other totalitarian regimes is reprehensible in and of itself)........ it's that simple, if you haven't been able to pick it out from the thread already.


Conspiracies may exist out there but this thread isn't part of one........... it may be hard to grasp but struggle with the thought a little...... if you are looking for a consipracy ask one of the Pro-ANSWER fans (they probably won't know, most pro-ANSWER people here just sound duped) here if ANSWER was a group specifically set up to discredit the left........

[Warren Stupidity]

261. Well actually

1) I haven't accused anyone specifically of anything - I have no proof I am simply airing my suspicions.

2) The original poster indicated that GOING to DC was off the plate because of the bad bad answer folks, and got a lot of 'bad commies dont go' responses. I don't see that as anything but 'wrecking'. It sure aint helping the cause of getting us out of Iraq.

Answer could be a government program, I could be a disinfo agent, so could you. We could, in response, stay home and do nothing. All things considered, I find the advocates of 'stay home do nothing' not helpful to progressive causes in any way, while groups like answer, with their idiot marxist leninist vanguard bullshit, out there organizing the demonstrations, getting folks to the parade, and otherwise DOING SOMETHING, part of how to change the way things are.

I'll go to the demonstration. I'll ignore answer and anyone else, including the nazis who for sure will be there, who I do not agree with. I suggest that everyone else go to the demonstration too. Its our parade not answers, not ufpj.

[Stephanie]

229. Nor am I. In fact I am arguing with people I generally agree with here.

But I have been to many, many marches in NYC and ANSWER is a problem, IMO. And I feel free at DU to say so.

[moddemny]

143. Sell your soul........

so someone can you give a bus ride?

[bpilgrim]

141. The U.S.A. Problem

our aggressive, militaristic foreign policy is the PROBLEM not the ANSWER.

psst... pass the word :bounce:

peace

[DS1]

144. You forgot Mumia

and Ritalin

[tavalon]

146. Please don't cancel

Align yourself with one of the many, many other groups who are also sponsoring this.

[sintax]

153. Awareness without action is the worst form of complicity Go to the Protest

If you can be persuaded or dissuaded by ANSWER or the DNC to attend or not attend the March then maybe you were looking for an out.

And that's OK but don't lay it on the fault of ANSWER, who may be irksome and preachy but often right, use your own voice.

There are numerous strands in the thread.

Seeing things and remaining quiet about them will change nothing, not even ourselves. But saying things - having the courage to testify to our own forbidden knowledge - could be the way the world changes.

[Swamp Rat]

157. Simple solution: I.G.N.O.R.E. and go to D.C. anyway.

[Coastie for Truth]

160. When Answer would not let Michael Lerner of Tikkun on the Platform

in 2003 in San Francisco they showed their true colors.

They are so far to the left that they have come around to the racist right.

[Violet_Crumble]

184. Why they didn't let Michael Lerner speak...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4386849#4392340

Sorry to burst yr bubble there :)

[Coastie for Truth]

232. Thank you for your elucidating append.

Thank you for input. As usual elucidative of a point of view.

I "daven" at Beyt Tikkun in Berkeley several times a year, I know Rabbi Lerner personally. I belong to both Tikkun (the organization) and Beyt Tikkun (the Temple in Berkeley). I have been to both Temple Emanuel (San Jose) and Chavera (Palo Alto) to hear Lerner.

Lerner's "Local Papers" (San Francisco Chronicle, San Jose Mercury) are the same ones I read. And I followed this story in the Chron, the Merc, the Silicon Valley/Los Gatos Jewish newspaper and the San Francisco JCC newspaper, and the Silicon Valley/Los Gatos and the Palo Alto JCC webazines.

BTW - said --

The groups forming the antiwar coalition had an agreement that none of the coalitions would propose speakers who had publicly attacked any of the other coalition groups which Lerner had done in the NYT and in his e-mails.

Just a wee bit extremist.

BY THE WAY - I WAS AT THE 2003 MARCH FROM SAN FRANCISCO'S CIVIC CENTER PLAZA UP MARKET STREET TO JUSTIN HERMANN PLAZA -- WHERE THIS CRAZINESS STARTED.

I AM ON THE GROUND IN THE BAY AREA

No response needed (it would just be a violation of Genesis XXXVIII, 7-10)

[geek tragedy]

233. Well, you know how Stalinists feel about dissent and internal

criticism.

Surprised they didn't try to ship Lerner to a gulag.

[Coastie for Truth]

239. ANSWER is worse then Stalinsts

they are racists "out at infinity where two parallel lines meet" (as my HS trig teacher used to say) -- and hiding under a progressive cloak they are attempting to hijack the Progressive cause.

Edit - corrected title.

[geek tragedy]

240. ACTION?

Who are they?

[Coastie for Truth]

244. Thanks. Corrected on edit.

[Borgnine]

164. Bravo.

This was the way it was during an Iraq war protest in February of 2003. A lot of the good, everyday people who did show up to march against the war were turned off by the Palestine stuff. It was so ridiculous at times that SNL even parodied it in a sketch the next week.

They remind me of PETA at times. They do good and I basically agree with their issues, but they're not converting anyone to their cause. They have no capacity for self-control.

[NuttyFluffers]

169. Once again, with feeling! Always obey the KISS rule!

Keep It Stupid Simple -- because that way just about everyone can figure it out.

You are absolutely correct, scattered energies produce nothing but maybe a warm glow. Focused energies produce combustion/action. What we need now is action, not a warm afterglow.

[katinmn]

171. Many groups are organizing protests! UFP&J , Code Pink ....

and others. One good thing is that there has been some discussion among the groups and they will be respectful of each others' concerns. The main thing is to show up in DC.
Read UFP&J website.

[nofurylike]

174. i agree about those problems. but please don't let them stop you from

the march!
this march is so critical!


peace!

[RSchewe]

176. This applies to many activist groups. This just muddies the message.

You can't imagine the variety of issues I saw at the RNC convention. It is kind of annoying when you attend a march. Some people don't even care about the main focus of the march at hand. I saw people trying to voice their views on: Cuba, Palestine, Mummia, etc., etc.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with many different causes and their right to demonstrate, but get with the program. Don't try to hijack other people's activities, it muddies the messages and neither group gets heard well.

[Tinoire]

180. Just so you won't sound too uninformed

whose activities here are being hijacked? ANSWER organized the majority of the protest, other groups started piggy-backing and they formed a coalition with ANSWER. So just whose activities are being hijacked here?

Seems to me like a few anti-ANSWER people, most of whom we don't know from Adam, are trying to weaken the coalition or seek to hijack it for their own purposes of just weakening Bush without attacking the machine that breeds him.

Don't like ANSWER? Don't march with them. Start your own groups and see how many people show up! The ever-increasing number of people who go to ANSWER marches are concerned with more than just Bush's handling of the war.

One moment it's complaints that ANSWER marches are nothing but Palestinian flags from front to rear, the next it's the complaint that a "few" pro-Palestinians, pro-Mumias or whatever hijacked the protest. Time for people to get their stories & their priorities straight. Nobody's been hijacking anything- it's always been like that though I understand what a shock this may be to delicate sensibilities of those who just woke up, can only handle one issue at a time and/or think that all other issues should patiently take second place even thought they've been around a lot longer than Bush or the war against Iraq.

The pervasive smell in this & similar threads seems to be moderates & conservatives getting scared. Those who don't like how ANSWER does things or what issues ANSWER is protesting against should just stay home! They did before so whence the rush to march with ANSWER if only they would repackage themselves into something more palatable for the delicate ones. The delicate ones should consider organizing their own groups and own protests if ANSWER is so repulsive to them.

Maybe the DLC or the DNC could help :shrug:

[Sgent]

182. Um

How about most americans. Most people aren't communists, believe in the right for Isreal to exist, and find ANSWER to be (as said above) so far to the left that they have come full swing back to right.

I can gaurentee that because of ANSWERS involvement, there are about 20-25 ppl (20 who had already put down deposits) who will not go to the rally in D.C. Anti-war they agree with, but many people who spearheaded the civil rights movement have serious problems with ANSWER, and will not participate in a rally by them.

Have fun getting nothing accomplished because the protest will be made up of the same people that show up at every protest -- WTC, World Bank, and now Anti-War.

When you only have radical liberals protesting, the media and polititions will rightly ignore you -- since this is not a radically liberal country.

[Tinoire]

186. 20-25 ppl? Wheat separating from the chaff

Nothing I'm going to worry about. They weren't at the previous rallies and now they've, according to you, plopped down a few pennies but after examining the message don't like it so they won't go?

Good riddance to 20-20 ppl whose committment to justice is obviously not that strong to begin with. The last thing the committed activists who have been on the streets since before the war started need, or want, is for them to come and muddy the consistent message we've had from the start- NO to injustice, exploitation and war.

Radical liberals, lol. Let me know when the non-radicals find those WMDs ok?

[Sgent]

188. 20 ppl

out of which 1/2 are members of the ACLU, most have been to numerous civil rights marches during the 50's-70's. They helped integrate schools and universities, country clubs, and a variety of other issues. They have probably done more to promote civil justice than 2000 ppl in ANSWER (except for me, I don't cliam that for myself).

The were excited about the war march and marching for piece. The don't support anti-semetic groups to do it though.

[Tinoire]

190. They don't sound very committed if they're just now finding out

about the antiwar marches and wanting to push ANSWER out of the way. And ANSWER, by the way, is not anti-Semitic. Jews for Peace have been an integral part of the ANSWER coalition and have worked very hard to kill the meme that some people are so intent to spread everytime there's an ANSWER march. So has the group Jewish Voices Against the Occupation.

People who are for peace, except for the Palestinians, would only muddle up ANSWER's message. It's better they not come if the sight of Palestinian flags and cries of justice for the Palestinians equate to anti-Semitism for them. There are enough representatives of the Jewish peace movement, proudly walking around with their black logo'd t-shirts, side by side with the Palestinian flags, to make up for the loss of about 20 ppl and without diluting the message.

One of the first protests we had, we wore little white stars on our clothing for the Palestinians. You know why we didn't do yellow stars as had originally been suggested? Because our Jewish friends marching with us said that would insult too many sensitive people who would quickly pounce to call us anti-Semites, holocaust desecrators of the worst kind. Don't think for one moment that the Jewish Peace movement isn't involved and vocal. They're very involved, very vocal and have no time for the anguished cries coming from the right of how the protests are anti-Semitic love-fests. Thank Heavens for that too.

[jonnyblitz]

206. my jewish friends in ANSWER will find it an eye opener

that they are anti-semetic. Calling people or groups who dare criticise Sharon's fascism anti-semetic is getting quite tiresome. :eyes:

[sintax]

202. Radical- to get to the root

So let's get to the root of these problems.
The money machine distractions called the DNC-DLC etc. are'nt EVER going to get to the root of this diseased organism we call 'American Society', so all time spent with this illusion that they can address any of our deep-rooted problems is wasted.

Sitting on the fence is unacceptable these days.

People don't or won't look into how deep the excrement is that we are standing in and what risks this requires of them. Easier to stay safe in bed. Oh, but I forgot, "your Silence Will Not Protect You"- Audre Lorde

:hi:

Seeing things and remaining quiet about them will change nothing, not even ourselves. But saying things - having the courage to testify to our own forbidden knowledge - could be the way the world changes.

[eridani]

191. What part of "A.N.S.W.E.R is NOT going to have--

--the only rally in town" was it that you didn't understand?

[nofurylike]

192. well said, thank you. it's painfully frustrating people aren't hearing. nt

[Hekate]

195. You make an EXCELLENT point

I addressed the same thing here, at some length:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4393451&mesg_id=4395225

Cindy Sheehan does one thing and does it extremely well. In DC she will be sucked into the chaos that is one of our marches and rallies, and her voice will be lost. Her impact will also be lost.

And because our marches and rallies are a whole mish-mash of causes thrown in indiscriminately, our message will be lost too.

ONE ISSUE, folks! Can we just address ONE ISSUE and get the message across? The fact is, we have finally found a lever that can move Bushco and make them lose credibility in the eyes of our fellow Americans -- and that lever, applied skilfully, can bring the whole structure crashing down around their ears.

For god's sake, can we for once agree on the message and stick with it? That was actually done at the women's march on DC in April 2004 -- over a million women and men went to Washington for women's reproductive rights. Not the spotted owl or the humpback whale or any of the thousand other offenses Bush has committed against us and the world. Just women's reproductive rights -- which, when you come down to it, is about almost everything else, too.

So I wish that on September 24 we could all agree that the war on Iraq is a powerful enough message.

Hekate

[derby378]

203. Cindy Sheehan = Laser-beam focus; A.N.S.W.E.R. = herding cats

You want to address Palestine, Puerto Rico, the Philippines, etc.? That's fine. Let's examine it. But this mess didn't start overnight; it took decades for Americans to build it.

Keep the focus on Iraq until we solve the Iraq problem. Then we can shift focus to something less pressing.

[GoneOffShore]

258. Thanks for this

We need to keep the focus on Iraq until we solve that.
ANSWER, despite their organizing 'skils' should focus for a change.

[Q]

205. Like clockwork...

...another mob attacks ANSWER without knowing all the facts.

I understand that some want good old white bread 'protests' where only certain types of people are welcome...but while the rest of America was sitting around helplessly watching Bush lie this nation to war...ANSWER was among the few organizations that held protests against it BEFORE it happened.

These threads remind me of the Hate Nader threads...where anonymous posters blame Nader in the same way RWingers blame Clinton for all the ills in the world. They're blinded with hatred and prejudice.

Like it or not...ANSWER will continue to protest in the way they think is best. It's not up to anyone on this board...who has the choice of joining them...some other group...or protesting as an individual.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

210. It's so much easierto Redbait and go after the activists.

Jane Fonda, Ralph Nader, The Greens, Fidel, Hugo Chavez. Who's next? That commie terrorist Nelson Mandela?

[moddemny]

216. It's so much easier..........

to accuse someone of redbaiting or being a member of the right wing when you can't explain the hypocrisy of being opposed to Bush yet endorsing a group that endorses dictators who are far worse.

[jonnyblitz]

219. david horowitz is that you? nt

[geek tragedy]

234. Accusing people who tell the truth about ANSWER of being

like Horowitz is abusive and dishonest.

Stalinists are authoritarian assholes and have no business calling themselves progressives.

[jonnyblitz]

236. well...i must have missed those ANSWER meetings

when they were preaching the joys of stalinism. all i know is, until somebody else steps up to the plate and coordinates the logitics for these events I am not gonna stand on the sidelines and wait for everybody to take loyalty oaths proclaiming they are not now or have never been a member..etc etc..

[geek tragedy]

237. ANSWER is run by the International Action Center, which in turn

is a front for the Stalnioid creeps at the Workers World Party, an organization so foul that they supported the use of tanks in Tiananmen square.

Stalinists don't have noble motives. They try to hijack legitimate causes instead.

[jonnyblitz]

242. i know all about ANSWER

i have gone to their meetings, i even went to a weekend long seminar of theirs in NYC a few years ago and sat in on various discussion groups etc. in which the higher ups of the organization participated. many of the people involved, particularly in the NYC chapter of the gay subgroup of them are my friends...all i know is that when it's time to demonstrate they were the ones doing all the grunt work setting things up. If they are the only game in town willing to go to this extent for the cause, what can I say and what does that say for our movement? :shrug:

[geek tragedy]

243. That decent people need to find a new banner.

People may think that a big crowd will change things--it won't.

But, having the entire anti-war movement associated with anti-American Stalinists who support genocidal dictators is counter-productive, to say the least.

The truth of the matter is that demonstrations won't work until the great middle mass of America decides to get off its butt. In a country of 300 million people, getting 250,000 people to turn out on one weekend ain't no big deal.

[jonnyblitz]

245. exactly (re your last sentence)

perhaps that is why many of us tend to embrace the "popular front" thing despite qualms we have with this group or that. I do believe, though, no matter WHO is running the show they will be labelled stalinist/communist whether they actually are or not. All the things you say about ANSWER i have read about or heard already. As a matter of fact, many of my friends who are the harshest critiques of ANSWER are people are as far left as ANSWER is who have no problems with commies, just the stalinist ones.

[geek tragedy]

248. Part of getting people out is focus, however.

A simple, clear theme will reach the masses more than the usual ANSWER puppet show.

Sadly, I suspect that great masses won't really get involved until there's talk of a draft.

[jonnyblitz]

249. damn here i go agreeing with you again (re your draft comment)

and yes, the single issue folks often have a hard time connecting the dots to see that ALL these issues are related...

in the meantime, I am not going to sit home. that's all.

[moddemny]

255. Who is David Horowitz??

....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

221. Eeek! The commies are coming!

So, you want only "acceptable" folks to protest? I saw the same crappola during the civil rights movement and anti-war movement when the "good liberals" thought it better to distance themselves from the radicals who fought the battles.

[moddemny]

259. I shouldn't be surpised you keep missing the point......

...... your seem to be better at making poor associations then making important differentiations.

Your associating people who supported the civil rights movement in the 60's with the stalinists of ANSWER, before you start accusing other people of spreading crappola take a look the sh*t your spreading. You can't advocate support for a group that supports the worst of totalitarian regimes and then bring up the civil rights movement and expect people to think you are making sense.

[jonnyblitz]

208. all you people WHINING about ANSWER

STAY THE FUCK HOME THEN. jesus h. christ!!! there will be PLENTY of us there so STAY THE FUCK HOME! either that or take the intitiave to spearhead these MAJOR protests on your own!! How in fuck do they hijack an event when they are the MAIN ones cooridinating them?!?! Unfuckingbelievable. you prissy DEMS are too fucking much sometimes. :eyes:

[deutsey]

211. LOL

:thumbsup:

[moddemny]

215. If you support .............

....... some of ANSWERS positions on slobodan milosevic, kim jong il and any other tinpot dictator...... MAYBE YOU SHOULD STAY THE F**K HOME AND NOT DISCREDIT THE REST OF US.

If you dont like their positions then you should consider who you are WHORING OUT YOUR PRINCIPLES TOO and take a step back from calling others prissy dems. They may not be so prissy at a real live event.

[jonnyblitz]

218. LMFAO

who else is providing affordable busing from all over to attend these events? It sure as hell isnt the DNC or UFPJ, not from where I live anyways..EVERY time I have gone to a major DC event the ONLY affordable busing has been provided by ANSWER!!

and another thing...our enemys will discredit us and call us COMMIES whether we are or not anyways so if u think by elimating ANSWER you will stop what our enemies say about us you are truly naieve. they have levelled the same COMMIE charges against UFPJ also!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

222. Bragging about who gives bus rides.........

....is like freepers celebrating how many port-a-johns they have. I mean, really.....it's who's on the bus that matters.

[jonnyblitz]

223. well.,..like i said...if you people are so afraid of your reputations

being sullied by commies perhaps you should get together and do what ANSWER does and coordinate the logistics. People are going to go with who provides the rides..:shrug:

everybody is quick to criticize but nobody steps up to the plate.

[deutsey]

209. United for Peace and Justice is also having a demo that day

www.unitedforpeace.org

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

224. As Mike Malloy said.........

......"focus is the key".

[Inland]

225. That's why protests, groups aren't a substitute for a POLITICAL PARTY

I'm all for jawing and such, but if you want to speak with one voice, you need the type of give and take that doesn't occur in what is by definition one event or a series of events.

Protests don't have platforms. Placards, yes, whatever one wants to print. But not platforms.

This is why I show up howling in Nader threads, in the "Here's a list of who I won't vote for" threads, in the "here's who doesn't speak for me" threads. It's all about the same level of coherence and political accomodation and focus one sees at the protest rally. But someday, somebody's got to win the election that's not Bush or a neocon.

It's time for a political party to concentrate on messages that win. There's no substitute.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

226. Grand idea! If only the Dems would do that.

Instead they insist on pretending to be Republicans and play it "safe" in being against the war.

[Karmadillo]

228. ANSWER's response to the "focus like a laser bean" concerns

http://www.internationalanswer.org/

<edit>

Question: What is the focus of the September 24 demonstration? Is the central focus on Iraq or is it many issues?

Response: The people of Iraq have met the war and occupation of their country with such fierce resistance that the U.S. government, as during the Vietnam War, has been unable to pacify and subdue the invaded country. The Iraqi people want the U.S. and all foreign forces to leave. This sentiment is shared by a growing number of people in the U.S. who have learned that the war has been based on lies and deceit. The demonstration was called by A.N.S.W.E.R. to help make this growing antiwar sentiment a powerful political force.

Question: If the focus of the demonstration is on the Iraq war why does A.N.S.W.E.R. raise other issues in the political program for the demonstration? Why does it support the demand “End Colonial Occupation from Iraq to Palestine and Everywhere,” and raise other countries and other peoples’ right to live free from colonial occupation and the threats of the Bush administration? Why does the demonstration also focus on social justice issues and civil rights on the home front? Don’t other issues dilute the message and possibly alienate some people who might agree that the Iraq war is wrong?

Response: There has been a debate about "connecting issues" or having an exclusively "single issue" focus since the 1960's. Martin Luther King, Jr. was severely criticized for publicly and courageously connecting the civil rights struggle at home with the growing opposition to the Vietnam War. Today, all progressive people applaud Dr. King's courageous position but at the time he was accused of alienating some supporters of civil rights by his strong antiwar stance. During that time, repression was greatest against those fighting racism and for liberation within the United States, but some antiwar leaders insisted that the movement strictly have antiwar slogans, rather than show solidarity with the targeted Black and Latino communities. Their desire to include some sectors of the population into the antiwar movement effectively excluded others. There is no reason to repeat this paradigm.

Arab-American and Muslim peoples are being targeted in their homelands and in communities throughout the United States. These forms of oppression are all interconnected and are part of the U.S. government's imperialist path of conquest. We are marching on September 24 to stop the war against Iraq and we want to show solidarity with the Palestinian people, the people of Haiti and others resisting the Empire. We want to draw in all those working class communities that are experiencing cutbacks in education, healthcare services and housing as the national treasury is looted to pay for imperial wars. This is the strongest way to build a powerful movement—not by exclusion, but by inclusion. The September 24 National Coalition, initiated by A.N.S.W.E.R., represents a broad unity not only between progressive national organizations but a united front with targeted communities, especially the Arab-American and Muslim communities in the United States.

Question: Is it too late to have a united front between the A.N.S.W.E.R.-initiated September 24 National Coalition and UFPJ? Is A.N.S.W.E.R. prepared to work with UFPJ?

Response: As stated above, A.N.S.W.E.R. still supports having a united front rally and march, despite the efforts of UFPJ leaders to split the movement. We are completely willing to continue to work with and engage UFPJ, regardless of significant political differences with UFPJ.

Only UFPJ is stating it will not have a united front demonstration. To date, UFPJ's leadership (which, of course, is different than its "membership") remains steadfast in its refusal to have a united rally and march. It has stated it only wishes to organize a separate rally.

[meganmonkey]

231. And here's UFPJs statement on the topic too:

(Just for balance ;) )

Sept. 24: Unity in the Streets

United for Peace and Justice is circulating this memo to explain the political reasoning behind our organizing approach for the September 24-26 mobilization, and to respond to concerns about our decision not to merge our September 24 demonstration with a separate anti-war event being organized that same day.

---snip---


UFPJ is organizing our three-day mobilization in Washington, D.C. from September 24-26 to increase the pressure at this strategic time. This mobilization is different from the large anti-war demonstrations we have organized in the past in several key respects, and these differences have shaped the organizing decisions that UFPJ's leadership -- a national steering committee elected by our member groups -- has made about the mobilization.

The September mobilization comes as anti-war sentiment is dramatically growing throughout the United States. New polls indicate that up to 60% of people in this country oppose the war and believe some or all U.S. troops should be withdrawn from Iraq. If we organize in an inclusive way, with broad demands, accessible language, and an inviting style, we have the potential to organize the largest and most diverse demonstration against the war to date, with people from all walks of life coming together in a clear call to bring our troops home now. If we are willing to go outside our comfort zones and speak to people our movements don't typically reach, we have the potential to mobilize large numbers of people from outside the usual activist circles, people from a wide range of communities who are fed up with the carnage in Iraq and ready to stand up publicly for peace and justice. A truly massive turn-out for our September 24 march against the war -- representing communities large and small, of every color and ethnicity, every economic status, and every religious creed -- will dramatize to the Bush administration and Congress how unpopular and politically untenable this war has become.

The September mobilization also comes as years of intense anti-war organizing are beginning to pay off in the legislative realm, with movement in both houses of Congress to call for U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. To build on this crucial new political momentum, our three-day September mobilization against the war will focus not just on the White House but also on Congress; it will include not just the major protest march on Saturday, September 24, but also, on Monday, September 26, large-scale grassroots lobbying and a mass nonviolent civil disobedience action.

Finally, the September mobilization comes as the anti-war movement is organizing more strategically than ever, pursuing a series of grassroots campaigns that target the most vulnerable aspects of the Bush administration's war drive. These include the increasingly effective nationwide efforts to counter military recruitment, a rapidly growing campaign of anti-war organizing in faith-based communities, and the multi-state campaign against the use of the National Guard in Iraq. As part of our three-day mobilization, we will be providing a range of ways for people to plug into these campaigns, including an interfaith religious service, grassroots training sessions, and "interactive stations" at the anti-war festival following our Saturday march.

As part of our effort to build the most inclusive and diverse possible mobilization, UFPJ has chosen two simple, broad demands for the weekend: End the War on Iraq, Bring the Troops Home Now! These main slogans are accompanied by five additional demands that link to specific campaigns: Leave no military bases behind; End the looting of Iraq; Stop bankrupting our communities; Stop the torture; No military recruitment in our schools.

We have chosen these overarching demands for the mobilization because we believe it is politically imperative to bring the largest number of people together right now in opposition to the war on Iraq. This September, we are seeking to mobilize all opponents of the war, no matter what their positions are on other political matters, and so we have kept our demands broad and simple. At the same time, United for Peace and Justice, as a coalition, has taken strong stances on an array of issues related to the Iraq War: opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories and U.S. support for that occupation; stopping torture and illegal detentions; preventing future “pre-emptive” wars against Iran, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba or other countries; supporting the democratic struggles of the Haitian people; and challenging U.S. nuclear hegemony by demanding the elimination of nuclear weapons worldwide.

For the September mobilization, UFPJ warmly welcomes our allies in the wide array of peace and justice movements to participate in the mobilization in ways that highlight the links between their struggles and issues and the absolute necessity to end the war on Iraq. We invite all those struggling for peace and justice abroad or at home to organize contingents in our march or feeder marches to the demonstration. The September 24 march is a powerful opportunity for labor, women, communities of color, lesbian/gay/ bisexual/transgender people, immigrants, youth and students, and many other communities to stand together and say, “We cannot make headway on any of our issues without ending the war and bringing the troops home.”

Some people have urged UFPJ to consider a joint demonstration with the Sept. 24 National Coalition, initiated by A.N.S.W.E.R., which is also organizing an anti-war protest on September 24. We take seriously the concerns from local organizers about the potential for confusion if there are two separate marches on September 24. Therefore, we have agreed to US Labor Against the War's proposal to convene a meeting with A.N.S.W.E.R. to work through logistical issues about the day, including the possibility of bringing the marches together. We are committed to working in good faith on this process. But because of our different approaches to organizing and how demands are articulated, we are not proposing a “unified” program that day. (See our May 23 memo to our member groups for a more detailed explanation.)

We urge all those who seek to bring this war to an end -- from national groups to local organizations to concerned individuals -- to put maximum effort into bringing new people and organizations into the nation's capital for September 24-26. The streets of Washington, D.C. are big enough to contain all of our events and movements that weekend. The important thing is that the streets be filled with as many people as possible, all holding the Bush Administration and Congress accountable for the continuing devastation of this illegal and unjustified war.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2966

[Coastie for Truth]

250. I will NOT be in San Francisco on 9/24

But - I will be at the Palo Alto Peace March on 9/24 and the Los Gatos Peace Rally on 9/25.

I am a member of Lerner's Tikkun and Beyt Tikkun -- and I was in San Francisco for the September 2003 March.

[rman]

246. Does ANSWER not realize there is no consensus about those issues,

amongst most people who do want to demonstrate against the war in Iraq?

Does ANSWER not understand that a demonstration will get much more support if it is focused on issues (or -one- issue if that's what it takes) that all participants agree upon?

There's a huge surge of sentiments now that are about two issues basically: Troops out of Iraq, Bush out of the WH.
Why complicate matters by practically forcing people to also support other issues about which there are not so many strong sentiments and which could in fact fragment the grassroots movement?


I'd say, by all means do join the demonstration, but do follow your own agenda.

[Coastie for Truth]

251. Because a lot of their leadership

are spoiled little rich kids, limousine liberals, rebelling against their over-indulgent parents. Used to be called chic radical.

[LoZoccolo]

252. I'd say they do realize that, that's why they push those issues.

ANSWER is a front group for the Worker's World Party; they're trying to co-opt sentiment against the Iraq war and steer it toward other issues. A lot of more radical groups use protests for recruitment.

[rman]

253. While i support many of their issues, i think it's strategically unsound

to push many (controversial) issues at the same time. What has this strategy brought them so far, other then backfiring on them?

[GoneOffShore]

256. Or more importantly

backfiring on anyone who associates their goals with them.
ANSWER , despite the cheap busing as mentioned by JohnnyBlitz above, is NOT the answer.
They throw too many issues into the pot and generate a lack of focus.