Very poignant column about America in the Daily Telegraph

[DealsGapRider]

I really enjoyed this column by the Daily Telegraph's Washington Bureau Chief. Particularly liked the closing:

"Yet it is worth recognising the self-evident truth that America is a force for tremendous good in the world. Opposing it means opposing the universal values that Europeans first exported. Certainly, the United States has its faults. After all, it is an experiment still in progress. Mr Bush has many qualities as a president but he has needlessly antagonised allies, often as much by his dismissive manner as by the substance of policy.

"None of this, however, justifies the tendency of so much of the world to define itself by the ways it is against America. Mr Bush once said that he didn't "do nuance". His fondness for the black and white encourages those who want to feel superior to see a caricature of the world's sole superpower rather than seek to fathom it.

"But nuance should work both ways."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/30/wdubya130.xml

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. The notion of inherent European superiority is just not as prevalent

today as it was a century ago.

The relatively short period of European pre-eminence was used primarily to enslave people, exploit natural resources, and the primary "value" that was exported was that of white supremacy, which does not enjoy a great deal of worldwide popularity today.

Mr. Bush is doing an excellent job of continuing those European traditions.

[sweetheart]

13. I take certain issue

the enlightenment and womens right to vote was first lead (worldwide) by britain... and this rather obvious modification to democracy to account for the truth was overseen by very fucked up men prior to this... or men captives of an ugly repression.

The liberation of women is very immature yet in serious historical terms with no culture feminist ascendent in modern time sadly... outwardly (obviously). Mr bush is a criminal, pure and simple. Take him in to custody and try him for his rap sheet... its not rocket science.

In this european garden,(where i'z been livin'(far north highlands)) people are very wise... the society is wise. Crime is minimal, and all the stereotypes you (writer) play to are not like you say. What is is the universal perversion in western culture to abuse their own kin... to beat their wives and generally establish a culture of repression. The whole world suffers from drugs addiction, incest, rape, and the real sadness of modern life... america is just one of many... and americans are just like all the rest of us.

Your spin perverts the universal enlightenment that links the european and american liberalism and its <natural?> global ascencency through military power through its link with prodestantism. (as a rationalization for graft) With that enlightenment came womens vote... it is not as you say. there really was something good in the bathwater.

[Brucey]

2. Force for tremendous good?

Boy, those are some rosy glasses! USA resume: Most violent nation in history (homicide and suicide rates are only one example), only nation to drop atom bombs on civilian populations, home to corporations that strangle the world economy and ruin people's lives around the world, killed more people than any country in history (including it's own in the civil war - yes, Lincoln killed as many of his own people as did Saddam), constant push for world domination, only developed country to not provide for the economic and health care of its citizens, highest poverty rate among developed countries, lowest tax rate among developed countries with majority of it going to military so citizens get very little in return relative to comparable countries, attacked and invaded one country per year for the last 50 years, etc. etc. etc. US is a force for tremendous good? Okay, I'll bite... what good?

[DealsGapRider]

3. Typical anti-American blather...giving us all a bad name.

I'll keep this post on file for those who insist that DU doesn't have a healthy segment of venomous anti-American posters.

Why do I even bother to respond?

"killed more people than any country in history" Um, ever hear of the Soviet Union (40 million dead under Stalin) or China (50-60 million dead under Mao)?

"Lincoln killed as many of his own people as did Saddam" What revolting, grotesque moral equivalence. Lincoln's war was supported by the democratically elected Congress and ended in the freeing of the slave. Cannot be compared to wholesale slaughter of civilians.

"only nation to drop atom bombs on civilian populations" Dropped on a nation that killed millions of Chinese peasants, including hundreds of thousands with chemical and biological weapons. Necessary to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of American troops who would have been forced to invade Japan.

"lowest tax rate among developed countries with majority of it going to military" Military consumes about 18% of GDP.

[el_gato]

4. piont out some facts

and DGR wants to call you anti-american

sounds like nationalist blather to me dgr.

wave your little flag (made in china) just a little more

:eyes:

[Japhy_Ryder]

5. Facts?

You know, all defenses of this country aren't "nationalist blather" sometimes it's correct. Extremists who refuse to see anything this country does as bad aren't any better than extremists who refuse to see anything this country does as good. The truth lies in between as it always does. Otherwise you're using Dubyalogic.

Now roll your eyes at me.

[DealsGapRider]

6. Thank you.

The point of the article was not to be a piece of fawning adoration of the US. Rather, it was to recognize the flaws of America without losing sight of the fact that US is still fundamentally a force for good in the world. Hence the line, "But nuance should work both ways."

I am not an uncritical admirer of the United States. But neither am I some vicious, America-hating idiot who is blind to all evil committed in the world that does not bear the stamp "Made in the USA."

[DealsGapRider]

7. What facts?

"Most violent nation in history" -- Soviet Union

"killed more people than any country in history" -- Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, China all supercede the US

"majority of going to military" - Wrong, less than 1/5 goes to the military...far lower than it was under, say, Kennedy and Johnson.

These are emphatically not "facts." They're just examples of thoughtless, immature America-hating bile.

[Brucey]

8. I'm the guy who got you all so emotional.

I am not thoughtless. I am not immature. I do hate much of what America has done, as I pointed out. In your response, you didn't exactly defend your position by admitting that the US was 2nd or 3rd in some of the horrific categories I listed. You completely ignored homicide, suicide, health care, poverty, housing, infant mortality, domestic abuse, and child abuse. But let's not quibble. Here are some good things about America: The constitution, particularly the 1st amendment, the peace corps, unions, charities, money given to help other countries (although it is relatively smaller than other countries give), money given to culture and the arts and public TV and radio (although it is relatively smaller than other countries give), the public school system (with some exceptions), the colleges and universities, the exchange of ideas, the creativity and innovation of many American inventors, and the diversity. I'm sure there are many other assets and strengths of America that I am not thinking of right now. But I wanted to show that while I hate certain aspects of America, I still love some others.

[DealsGapRider]

10. How big of you.

"You completely ignored homicide, suicide, health care, poverty, housing, infant mortality, domestic abuse, and child abuse." Oh, I forgot, there was no poverty or infant mortality in Mao's China. Give it a rest.

Glad you were able to scour the historical record and finally identify some good that America stands for - NPR and the like. You left off a few minor accomplishments like the defeat of Nazi Germany, the Marshall Plan, the immunization of hundreds of millions of Third World children, the vast majority of the world's food aid, the cure for polio, etc.

Either way, your first impulse was to relfexively lash out in hatred of the United states, which is telling. I think we know where you're first instinct lies. Well, at least you have plenty of company.

[Brucey]

11. What's there to argue about?

Again you point out that US is 2nd in horrible conditions in your opinion. Then you say US defeated Nazi Germany. You've been watching too many movies. The US didn't even want to get into the war. Russia and England contributed just as much, in fact, without Alan Turing's invention the war in Europe would have been difficult. It is not reassuring that killing thousands of innocent Japanese citizens was necessary in order to save the lives of invading soldiers. Not even the American government supports this view anymore. I did mention helping other countries. It is my first instinct to see problems and wonder what can be done to correct them. This is viewed as criticism, and perhaps it is. This country is filthy rich and does very little to stem the problems of its average citizens: crime, health care, poverty, domestic and child abuse, etc. By pointing these things out I am trying to get people to do something about them. If we ignore the problems, how will we solve them? I don't see any need for me to list all the good things about America. You are absolutely, 100% right. You are right. It is my first instinct to reflexively want to make things better by complaining about what is wrong.

[BonjourUSA]

14. The marshall plan has been a great idea but not a gift.

The European countries ought to buy their materials, equipments... in the USA.

This plan allowed both a faster rebuilding for Europe and a great prosperity for the USA

[ShaneGR]

9. I agree, while we have serious faults, we are a great nation

And I don't subscribe that wacked out USA is evil crap.

[iangb]

17. As Churchill said...

"The US can be relied upon to do the right thing, after exhausting all other options."

It's not US history that's concerning me at the moment......it's what you are doing now........and what you may do next.

[BonjourUSA]

12. I agree with except for A-bomb

The japan capitulation was eminent, especially because oil and raw material shortage. But...

For Staline, he killed between 20 and 30 million russians, Hitler between 15 and 20 million.

For China if you include the starvation, deportations and the "Great Works" with the civil war, the number of kills is enormous, between 80 and 100 million ( "Mao first period"). If you include "Mao second periode" ("Cultural Revolution") the total number is absolutely unknown.

[bpilgrim]

16. i'm glad you mentioned that

the line that gets told here most often, till this very day, is the old demonstratably false wartime propaganda that we dropped it TWICE to save lives...

america needs a national teach in to learn what has been done in our name to the rest of the world and maybe then, we will change our direction :shrug:

:hi:

peace

[bpilgrim]

15. 'RW talk radio and fox news compete with liberal-hued netorks' - lol

"In the heartlands, Right-wing talk radio and Fox News compete with the liberal-hued networks and big-city newspapers for the minds of citizens. Yet the arguments take place within boundaries."

in his gallant effort not to use sterotypes he used the PC one ;->

guess it takes a little more than a road trip to get to know america well enough to get everything right :evilgrin:

to qualify though, as an american i know MOST americans not only believe in but are damn PROUD of what america stands for and once the word spreads about what this corrupt admin has been up to and got planned there willl be hell to pay, no doubt.

:hi:

peace