The Wilson Story is going NOWHERE. Get used to it. Move on. Get over it.

[Q]

- Jesus. When will the Democrats learn that the Bushie Republicans own our government and most of the media? They represent the ruling class and make their own rules.

[59millionmorons]

1. Yes

But we have 14 months to pound this into the voters minds. It will be a reminder of what low down scumbags stole the 2000 election.

[Brucey]

2. You are right... but we can hope for some

of the bad smell to rub off. Of course nothing will come of it. But it does add to the political climate now surrounding chimp and friends. It will do a little good in persuading a few of those on the edge to move closer to our side.

[shance]

100. Patience, perseverence, and PERSISTENCE are keys to justice everyone**

We didnt get here over night, and we aint gonna get out of this overnight.

Keep in mind that this Wilson case is important, but it is one piece of a much larger broken, corrupt, greed-infested system.

Keep our eyes on the prize.

Working to inform more people about the truth, and focus on creating a country (and world) that is dedicated to benefitting and sustaining everyone on this continent, the Native Americans (the true Natives), African Americans, Hispanics, Jews, Muslims, and not just a select few the White priveleged.

(I can say that because Im White, and also because it needs to be said**)

:)

[Melinda]

3. Sorry. Can you point the way to goose-step class please?

I obviously need reprogramming. :shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

23. Q is NOT a goose-stepper

He's been right way more often than he's been wrong, sadly for the planet. He's an informed cynic. With damned good reason.

[Melinda]

29. Sorry Will, but don't piss in my cornflakes and tell me its milk

Neither one of you has the cynicism market cornered.

[WilliamPitt]

44. Certainly not

But 'goose-stepping' accusations tickle calling someone a Nazi. Bad juju. Oh, P.S. Find me where I said he had 'cornered the market' on anything.

[Melinda]

57. You err in presumption, Will

No where in my post did I infer nor imply Q to be a "Nazi". My post was in response to the message and its tone - not toward the messenger. Indeed, if you were to follow the "advice" Q suggests above, you would immediately cease raising your voice through your writings on this very subject.

In most instances I hold Q and his opinion in high regard, as I do yours, but as to the instant subject matter (and its proposed dictum), I totally disagree - and I believe (as evidenced by your article) that you do too.

Next time I'll insert the requisite </sarcasm> so as not to confuse you or anyone else to my actual (in this case complete cynicism) meaning.

[WilliamPitt]

88. Cool.

Good 'nuff. :)

[Q]

39. Thanks, Will...

... :)

[Melinda]

63. Q -

I'm apologize if you felt or thought that my post somehow meant that I viewed YOU as a Nazi - that simply is not the case, as I hopefully made clear in my response to WillPitt above. Peace.

[the_real_38]

64. Funniest thing I've heard all week...

... (goose-step class).

[MuseRider]

4. You just pooped on my party!

You are right to a point but I think eventually if he keeps messing with the CIA they will mess back. Could this be the start? Actually, even if nothing comes of it the story has gotten out there. Even the dumbest, most uniformed person will start to put 2 and 2 together. Unless they are just going to vote Republican no matter what. This new addition may be persuasive.

[MISSDem]

84. Muserider, too many people won't put 2 and 2 together

For example, many still think and say that Iraq and Saddam were responsible for September 11.

[HereSince1628]

5. It's too early in the year for S.A.D.

It's also too early to say its over.

My guess is, FBI will say it really is serious, but then the Congress will call for hearings that involve immunity for testimony deals and THEN the whole thing will go away.

[Robin Hood]

6. Bwahahahah! Some call it treason.

Someone is going to hang for this. And all I keep hearing is that Bush took revenge on this guys wife for speaking the truth about an illegal war. I mean, come on!!! This is bad for Bush no matter how you look at it.

[janekat]

36. You're forgetting the "sheeple" factor

WE'RE the "abnormal" ones living in a "bizarro" world.

[diplomats]

7. There's a criminal investigation

it's not going away. The DOJ may attempt to whitewash it, but it ain't going away.

[MoonAndSun]

8. I will NOT get over it,

not the stolen election, the recall in CA, the redistricting in Texas or anything else that is being brought onto this country by the repukes.

[proud patriot]

85. Nor will I

Q has a point , but I'm not getting over it .

nor will I quit working to make sure it doesn't "go away"
just cause the odds are stacked against me .

I wouldn't be me if I got over it .

I may or may not be successful.

Thanks for the reality check Q

[stanwyck]

97. I'm with you.

let's not "get over" anything. Wrong direction. Fight back. The White House using snitches in the media to blow an agent's cover is treacherous. The so called NASCAR Dads are not going to be all warm and fuzzy about the hated media being used by the Bushies to out a CIA operative. Where's Mr. Secret Ops. Bruce Willis "give me 4 seconds with Hussein/Bin Laden" now? Where's the red-blooded outrage for the CIA agent who has his/her cover blown by a vengeful White House? It's the CIA vs. the Bushies. How is America going to pair off in this battle?

[Brian Sweat]

9. As I have said before, the CIA is pissed

and it will have it's pound of flesh. The BFEE fucked with the CIA. You remember the CIA, don't you. They're the people that burried the bodies in the first place. They have a detailed map and their about to take us for a ride.

[Padraig18]

13. Agreed

I never thought I'd be grateful to te CIA for anything, but they are not going to let this die. This story has legs up to it's a**! :evilgrin:

[caledesi]

25. Agree! Again, they have plenty of ammo.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Did you see yesterdays press conference?

If nothing else comes out of this, maybe an actual *gasp* inquiring press corps will be the thing. McClellan was nailed to the wall yesterday.


btw, is there a pc scheduled for today?

[AngryYoungMan]

11. Wrong.

Why do so few people understand the distinction between a "scandal" (in the sense of some Bush misstatement or some cronyism that doesn't last beyond the news cycle) and a Justice Department investigation into a Treasonous Act?

The Demo candidates are staying out of the way of this one, because, as Josh Marshall pointed out, "this is about subpoenas, not press conferences." The thing should run itself for a little while. Everyone's entrenching their positions. If I was a Demo candidate for any office, I would refuse to comment on this thing.

Just wait.

[caledesi]

26. Good post AYM!

[IrateCitizen]

12. There's a BIG difference with this one Q...

And that is that it was the CIA that has instigated the call for an inquiry. Not the media. Not a public interest group, but the C-I-fucking-A.

This is important because it is complete sacrilege to fuck around with the intelligence community in Washington. You can do just about anything else and get away with it, but you do NOT get a pass on fucking with the intelligence community for partisan political purposes.

This will NOT go away, I can almost guarantee it.

[mkregel]

65. Nixon went down when he screwed with the CIA

You could trace Watergate until the cows come home but keep in mind the minute Woodward started talking with Deep Throat was right after the CIA took some serious blows (Pentagon Papers, Operation Mongoose shut down again...)

OK...tinfoil hat off

[cjbuchanan]

14. Just stop that

How are we ever going to change anything if we go in expecting to lose. One of the best things I have ever heard Michael Moore say is that the big difference between Repugs and Dems is Repugs always com in expecting to win and they play to win. If we come in saying the deck is against us, we're just going to lose, we have beaten ourselves.

I understand your frustration, but we need to all pull together and fight back this stuff. Don't make the job any easier.

I will now step off my soup box.

[calimary]

70. And then I shall step ON the soap box, since you've just stepped off.

Or soup box. Or whatever.

YOU are right, cjbuchanan. If we embrace that assumption - that this is just gonna go away, then it certainly will.

How about doing something to help it stay alive, then?

I think, just today, I must have called about 20 congresspeople, and senators. I started with MY three, Boxer, Feinstein and Waxman. THEN, I moved on to Frist, Kennedy, Durbin, Schumer, Byrd, Collins (whose aide gave me a hard time and demanded to know what this had to do with the state of Maine, since I identified myself as caring enough about this to call from California - to which I answered - this involves and effects the entire United States of America, bud!), Rockefeller, Santorum, Schakowsky, DeLay, Waters, Pelosi, Harman, and more. Those are just the ones I can remember, and just the ones I hit this morning.

To some of the rethugs, I behaved as sweetly as I could, and APPEALED to them emotionally, about how, even as a Democrat, I wanted badly to trust my government, and to trust the rethugs, because they, too, represent me as an American and a taxpayer. And I appealed to them to urge their guy/gal to RISE ABOVE IT and do the right thing for the entire country, even if it's the tough thing, because we-the-people NEED to be able to look up to and trust our leadership, no matter what party affiliation they claim. I did not go on attack mode.

I guess if you're gonna shake your head and shrug your shoulders and give up, then whatever happens happens. But if there's EVEN THE SLIGHTEST chance to tip the balance, or get EVEN ONE in the enemy camp to start thinking it over seriously, it's a victory. If we keep nagging and reminding and staying in their faces about it, the likelihood that it'll just go away is less and less.

FURTHER, if you go to the site for Take Back the Media, they have A LOT of referral numbers and emails to the media.

YOU/WE/I simply MUST keep the drum beat going. Sooner or later, if we do, this story WILL take off by itself. It may already be doing that. But we CANNOT give up and drop our vigilance and declare ourselves helpless.

I REFUSE TO GIVE UP!!! And, frankly, everybody on this board should agree on that. Do we REALLY wanna pack it in now and embrace defeat, or do we want to stand up to these people and hold their feet to the fire? I, for one, plan to go on fighting until I breathe my last.

[calimary]

71. AND WHILE I'M AT IT - THOSE TOLL FREE NUMBERS ARE:

1 (800) 839 - 5276

1 (800) 648 - 3516

Those are the TOLL FREE Capitol Hill switchboard numbers - you call 'em and ask for ANYBODY'S office on the Hill and they'll switch you over for free.

OR go to www.congress.org and the directory - for all the phone numbers for the local AND Washington offices of anybody on Capitol Hill. That feature also includes email addresses and fax numbers.

DAMMIT, you can't give up!!!! None of us should. There's just too much at stake. Besides, I need to be able to look in my bathroom mirror with a clear conscience in the morning. The view in any event is tough enough. I don't want to make it any worse!

[eileen_d]

15. It's the Jedi Mind Trick!

I try it sometimes but it never seems to work.

[imhotep]

16. They will never learn

Its actually pretty funny to watch everyone get their hopes up and then come craashing back to reality. It seems like a 2 or 3 month cycle for the last 4 years.

[diplomats]

33. I would agree

if this hadn't mutated into an actual criminal investigation.

[gristy]

17. Well, if you say so.

And thanks for the reminder that we have a Republican executive branch and Congress. I'll get back to my regular scheduled programming. :eyes:

[DulceDecorum]

18. The CIA has toppled governments before

and they seem especially motived today.

Gentlemen, place your bets.

[Beetwasher]

19. There's MORE COMING

It ain't over, not by a long shot. Take a look at the big picture. We've had a series of orchestrated leaks, all connected. The CIA is throwing combination punches and is taking on the admin. They know what they are doing. They would not have started this thing without all their ducks in a row. They know that to keep this alive they need a steady stream of new info for the press. More bombshells are coming. I can practically guarantee it.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Probably right, BUT

1. This is warfare between the CIA and the White House. The media actually is out of the loop and playing catch-up. The Bushies don't own the CIA, and the CIA will have this go on as long as they want it to.

2. Even though it may be true, there is no reasoning you can offer to keep us from flogging it as loudly as possible. Defeatism does not qualify.

[Oracle]

40. Bullshit...the CIA is an enabler for the White House,

and for every Bush fuck up before 9-11.

They need each other...the CIA is just showing another administration who really is in control.

Ashcroft will prolong...

Rove and the boys will kiss-ass, make concessions to the CIA
and the CIA (along with the media ) will get them out of this "jam."

And all will be nice, nice, with the CIA and the White House again.
(at least for public preception, anyway.)

[Walt Starr]

61. My guess, Will, is the CIA will hand it all over to Clark

The White House, that is. I expect Clark would be very favorably disposed towards the CIA as prior positions he held depended upon intelligence provided by the agency on a regular basis.

Since the CIA can read the writing on the wall, they know when to throw dead weight overboard and prepare for the new meme.

[Seneca]

95. question, Will

Do you think any of Daddy Warbush's CIA ties will matter in the final accounting? Will it save Junior's ass or will he be made vulnerable?

I want to be optmistic about a real sea change, but I have a cynic alive and well inside of me, and since the Bush name has long-running CIA ties, I have to wonder about the true length of this story's legs.

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

[MGKrebs]

21. This has the right feel for a

legitimate story...and problem for the admin.

Spies, traitors, coverup, a mole inside, Washington Post. All we need now is a little sex. But then, repubs don't have sex, do they?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. Q yup the Dems in Congress are now kicking themselves in the head.....

for letting the "Independent Councuil Statute" die....god damn FOOLS!!!!...just like their "Iraq War Resolution" votes..and then we call the kettle black - "gross incompetence" of this admin.....<shaking head/sighs deeply>
i sure as hell hope that you and i are both WRONG

[ithacan]

24. Hope springs eternal...

Like opponents of every authoritarian regime, the defenders of freedom and democracy in this country have to hope that the regime gets too self confident and starts making fatal mistakes... This is just one sign of overconfidence that, accumulated, may prove to be their downfall despite all their control over media, etc.

[Melinda]

27. "What does it mean for the average citizen to be a fascist?"

"I do not have a certain answer to this question. Anyone with a more precise understanding should help here. It seems clear that, at least in the early phases, the average citizen carries out no directly repressive or murderous actions. Rather, it would seem that in a fascist society, s/he watches others do so without protesting, participates in collective national rituals without asking about the repressive and murderous actions being fulfilled by police or soldiers in the nation's name.

<snip>

If in the United States no serious and deep public questioning arises concerning the use of false intelligence and reporting to justify the declaration and pursuit of war, if such questioning is not accompanied by formal political and legal investigation, then I think we would have to face the disastrous reality that significant sectors of the world's wealthiest and most technologically advanced nation are willing to be lied to by their leaders.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case. I'm saying this looks like a real test. If a majority, or even a preponderant minority of American citizens are collectively willing to go through all the rituals of bellicosity and superpatriotism, but unwilling to demand investigation into the facts which are supposed to have made those rituals necessary, then one would have to very seriously ask the question whether a fascist society is not emerging in the USA."

Somehow seems appropriate here.

[rocktivity]

28. The FTC rollbacks and the new overtime laws are going NOWHERE

precisely because we didn't sit back and take it. We let our leaders know how we felt, and they used it as ammunition with which to fight back. Tell your congresspersons and the mainstream media that you refuse to tolerate this kind of "playing politics" in what's supposed to be a democratic society. DEMAND that this treasonous act be investigated--AND by an indpendent counsel!


rocknation

[calimary]

72. Absolutely. Miguel Estrada didn't prevail, either, if you'll recall.

rocknation, you are absolutely correct. This stuff failed because the people demanded action. Michael Powell thought he had everything all set up really nicey-nicey for his buddies in big media. And guess what happened? The people spoke up and did an end-run around him and the whole f-ing FCC.

DEFEATISM IS NOT AN OPTION. NEITHER IS FAILURE. I WILL NEVER GIVE UP.

Also, when we call in, we need to repeat the - what - memes? TRAITOR. TREASON. TRAITOR. TREASON. TRAITOR. TREASON. TRAITOR. TREASON.

Repetition is a proven success tactic. So why the hell don't WE use it?

[Snellius]

30. This may be different. This isn't just Rs vs. Ds.

This story has been hanging around neglected all summer until Tenet (not too thrilled, no doubt, to have to take the fall for the 16-words in the SOTU address and the whole Iraq intelligence fiasco) called on DOJ to investigate. This was not prompted by the Democrats but by officials, like whoever leaked to the Post Sunday that 2 WH officials leaked Plame's name, within the administration itself. There is almost no one in the Republican Party who has yet to come to the WH's defense.

Moreover, in the whole context, just as Watergate was as much about Nixon's lies about Vietnam as it was about a criminal breakin, this scandal is as much about Iraq. The big difference is that the opposition has no control of the investigative power of Congress, but at the same time, if the Rs continue to avoid the issue, it may also only inspire the press, whose own involvement is central.

[RummyTheDummy]

31. Maybe...

But it's not one silver bullet, it's the little things that count and accumulate over time. This is just one more thing on the pile.

[revcarol]

32. This is just one more bit of ARROGANCE to add to the pile...so it

will have legs, even if they aren't the sort of legs we would wish.

The arrOgance of the lies leading up to the war, the arrogance of Bush and the cabal regarding Enron, the arrogance of defense contractors stealing our tax money...ARROGANCE is what will cream the administration, because they think nobody notices...AND WE DO NOTICE.

[calimary]

73. Soon enough, critical mass WILL be reached.

As Peter Quincy Taggart put it - "NEVER give up! NEVER surrender!!"

[F.Gordon]

34. On THIS I'll agree with you

I knew eventually you'd say something we could both agree on. Law of averages and all........

[Cocoa]

35. it was going nowhere up until now

Typically, now that the story has broken huge, after being dormant for two months, Q comes to tell us that it's going nowhere.

[Q]

43. I'll start a thread to apologize if I'm wrong...

- And I sincerely hope I HAVE TO start that thread.

[Cocoa]

75. you're already wrong

just like you were wrong about the Niger uranium story going nowhere, right when it was breaking big. I guess it's how you define "going nowhere."

[charlie]

79. How was he wrong?

Bush, Condi, and Colin danced for a while, then Tenet stepped up to take the hit, nevermind that the whole world knew that he tried to prevent Dubya from using the Nigerian "evidence." Heard much about it since then?

[Cocoa]

94. yeah, did you hear about the DOJ investigation?

did you hear the dems demanding a special prosecutor?

Did you hear Harkin call this treason?

Did you see all the footage of Rove and the White House?

It's the same story. In PBS NewsHour's introduction to the story, they started with a clip of Bush's 16 words from the SOTU.

[frank frankly]

37. I will not get used to it

No way. If it takes 1,001 scandals to brake this open, if it takes 1,000,001 scandals...

These criminals are going down.

I will not quit.

[Q]

41. No one is asking you to 'quit'...

...but to realize the magnitude of what we're fighting against.

- We should never give up. But we should realize that we've NEVER had this type of government before...that TAKES power and uses patriotism as a means to neuter the opposition.

- We're all hoping that ONE of these many scandals finally breaks through and exposes the Bushies for the criminals they are. Is this the one? Probably not. My guess it will go down the 'Reagan memory hole' in less than two weeks.

- Yes...there will have to be a scapegoat. But history shows us that those who fall on their swords (Ollie North) for the 'Republican Revolution' usually end up as millionaires or employees of the next GOP administration.

[Selwynn]

47. We have had this type of government before....

its just that man folks here are too young to remember it. :)

It was brought down before, it can be brought down again...

[charlie]

52. Not even remotely

The Nixon White House was nowhere near as cynical and audacious as this one. Nor could it confidently expect to operate in plain sight, spinning contradictory tales for cover with impunity -- the press wasn't entirely an adjunct of the GOP and Democrats weren't so readily buffaloed back then. And even for all that, if Butterfield hadn't fucked up and told a Congressional committee about the tapes, Nixon may well have weathered Watergate, a mere "third rate burglary."

[Nay]

89. I agree completely, Charlie.

Having lived through the Nixon thing, I remember being absolutely appalled at what was going on, and today I am practically out of my mind with worry. This White House has no shame, has a toddler's sense of entitlement, and a conman's mentality when relating to others. It is like no other I have ever seen, except perhaps some of those African governments where the dicator simply takes everything and shoots you if you resist. Just because that hasn't happened here yet does not mean this WH does not have that mentality -- it just means it feels it hasn't softened us up quite enough to pull the really nasty shit. Another stolen election and a bigger, better 9/11 will do the trick.

[F.Gordon]

48. Right after All-No becomes Gov

My guess it will go down the 'Reagan memory hole' in less than two weeks

Bush* has 100% control of this story. And poppy is a former spook. "Once a company man....always a company man". The best all of us can hope for is that the aggregate of all these stories will shake out a few cob webs.....remove a few blinders......come November 2004.

[spindoctor]

62. business as usual

we should realize that we've NEVER had this type of government before...that TAKES power and uses patriotism as a means to neuter the opposition.

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." - Hermann Goering

"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear -- kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor -- with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstruous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it..." - Gen. Douglas Macarthur

Never before did we have an opposition that is afraid what being branded unpatriotic might do to their carreer. This type of government is just business as usual.

"We're all hoping that ONE of these many scandals finally breaks through and exposes the Bushies for the criminals they are. Is this the one? Probably not."

No, because this one does not involve Bush. But if they can pin this on Rove, you bet he is going down. I believe Bush is as harmless as he looks. It is the people behind him that scare me.
Take out Bush and what do you get? Cheney! No thanks. I can handle one more year of Dubya. Rove ranks a lot higher in my deck.

[WilliamPitt]

91. So the 'Move on' in your thread title was a typo?

[Q]

38. Look...I'm not trying to piss anyone off...

...just pointing out the obvious. Hell...we're still trying to figure out why Enron and 9-11 haven't been fully investigated.

- And I'm not putting all the blame on the Democrats for not fighting this...many have put their careers on the line in order to get the truth out to the people. It's impossible to fight both the Bush* executive branch and a 'free press' that refuses to report the WHOLE truth. The American media has turned out to be decidedly anti-Democratic party.

- This bullshit will go on until the Bushies are no longer 'allowed' to use a 'time of war' as an excuse for a secrecy that just coincidentally protects the Bushies and the republican party from accountability.

- As with the Reagan and Poppy Bush administrations...someone may have to fall on their sword...but the main players will go on as if nothing happened.

[Hamlette]

60. Is this Watergate or Iran/Contra?

In the last analysis, Watergate WAS a third rate burglary. If Dick had fessed up immediately he'd have finished his term. And, if Dick hadn't messed with the CIA/FBI we wouldn't have had a deep throat.

All this might depend on what Bush does now. Or what he has already done. The way he left that photo op so quickly yesterday makes me think he doesn't want to say a word. Is that because he's in the middle/knows something?

Iran/Contra didn't get traction because it was not an unpopular cause. And Bush is no Reagan. Iraq is looking more and more like Vietnam.

[cosmicdot]

42. do people mean a battle between ... this place ...

... and, this place, the West Wing??? ...



I'm pulling for the people ... but, I see "bush" covering the party of the first part, and "bush" covering the party of the second part ...

[Q]

45. Plausible deniablity and 'out of the loop'...

- Allow me to add that it's probably a done deal that someone will have to take the fall. But it won't be anyone close to Bush* or his top advisors...the very people who encourage this type of 'revenge politics'.

- This won't even appear as a hiccup for the Bush* Doctrine.

[Selwynn]

46. Must not be watching the same media ~

It lead every network news broad cast last night. Was on the front page in NYT, first link up on google news and is pretty much everywhere you look...

Now, you COULD be right - this story may go away by the end of the day today. But its too soon to tell whether or not the media will stay in line. It really all boils down to what's in it for them. If corporate media sees that Bush is going down next election, they will start looking to jump ship and support the most moderate alternative candidate they possibly clan.

No political loyalty is without its buying price, and Bush may be running out of control power. We shall see.

[Q]

49. Daschle on CSPAN2 Demanding Independent Prosecutor...

...in response to Shumer's request.

- This is great news. The Dems are pissed and won't let it go. Good for them.

- But remember one thing: this doesn't mean that it will damage Bush* in any way. It could actually help him if he appears 'tough' on those who volunteer to fall on their sword for him.

[Beetwasher]

50. Damaging Bush

The BEST Bush could hope for is a neutral effect, and that would be a miracle. No way in hell this will help his approval. I expect the next polls to have 5 point drops, at least...

[calimary]

76. I just called CNN - 1 (404) 827 - 1500

Asked for the programming department and got to public information. I held only briefly til an actual human voice came on.

Then I passed along an inquiry as to whether Robert Novak would be taken off the air for his role in TREASON-GATE, and I further complained that the coverage has been terribly biased toward the right, and I'd like to see more liberals and Democrats given airtime for reaction and talking head guests.

EVERY LITTLE BIT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!! I'm just pushing for critical mass on this. It's that one final straw that will finally break the camel's back. We just need to keep adding straws.

[Padraig18]

51. I dunno, Q!

I live in the Repgnicrat heartland of central IL, and for some odd reason, the people's ability to smell *shit has suddenly started to return. Kinda like a coma patient slowly regaining consciousness. :)

[Q]

53. Hell...Bush* lied about the reasons to invade Iraq...

...and the RWing faithful still worship him.

- No...unless Bush* is directly connected to this...it will not harm him come 2004.

[Brian Sweat]

56. Watch his poll numbers next week. They will be in the high thirties.

[Beetwasher]

58. Have you seen the polls recently?

Things are taking their toll. He'll always have a hardcore base of about 30-35% of the people, but the rest can and are wising up...You're wrong about this, it IS effecting him and people's opinions are changing...Now, whether or not this will effect a rigged election is another story, but I'm pretty confident at this point that the admins credibility is gone and the only way they can win an election at this point IS through fraud. Knowing that, we're in a MUCH better position to counter...

[Padraig18]

59. Maybe

It's a weird phenomenon, Q. Last November in this, the self-proclaimed "Most Republican County in Illinois", the Democratic candidate for Governor (and current Governor, Rod Blagoevic :) ) won almost 50% of the vote. I KNOW a lot of Repubs voted for him (and other constitutional officers who also won), but none of them will admit it just yet.

There is a DEEP discontent here, and it's growing.

[Brian Sweat]

54. Bush is in a no win situation.

Underlings falling on their swords will not appease the CIA. The leak was done at the behest of someone high in the Bush administration. The CIA knows who it was and they will push this story until they have his or her head on a pike.

Offering up underlings and going tough on them will only make Bush look worse when the real culprit is finally exposed.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

55. Nancy Pelosi just gave news conference ...air on MSNBC

demanding a special council....independent of the DOJ...stating Rove and Ashcroft's friendship and past business links as "conflict of interest" and WARRANTS ...SPECIAL COUNCIL INVESTIGATION....wow calcium supplements are working woohoo

[pippin]

66. finally

Nancy shows some gumption.

[greyl]

67. Cspan 2 live now

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cspan2_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

Schumer just finished on the issue, now Durbin's up.

[JHB]

68. Well then, just screw everything and let's GIVE UP!

It's one thing to be a cynic, Q, heaven knows there's sufficient cause for it these days and yes there are some naieve people who stand breathlessly sure that THIS (fill in the blank event) will be the downfall of Bush specifically and the forces of greed and evil in general, but dammit, next time you're inclined to post one of these "throw your hands up, this won't change anything" posts do the entire country a favor and go do something else.

There's a difference between bursting overinflated bubbles and bursting all hope. We're in a long fight against an opposition that fights hard and dirty. The former is a vital contribution to that fight. But the latter, we don't need, so take those posts and buzz off.

[Q]

69. You shouldn't tell fellow DUers to 'buzz off'...

...even if you don't like what they post.

- Once again...I'm not suggesting that no one will be 'punished' for this. But it will mean nothing to the millions of Bush* worshipers unless it's proven that HE ordered this disclosed. That's not going to happen.

- Be mindful of the difference between a scandal and a scandal that hurts the admin in the eyes of their own party. Bush* followers are in denial and will be out in force to vote for him in 2004.

- Will it hurt Bush* that an 'overzealous' employee outted a CIA agent? Nope. They'll blame it on the employee and praise Bush* when he sacrifices them to the PNAC alter.

[Q]

74. Update: GOP kills Shumer amendment for Independent Investigation...

- The Republicans want the DOJ to investigate the Bush* WH on the Wilson matter. Looks like there won't be an independent Prosecutor. GOPers killed the amendment.

[JHB]

78. Hardly unexpected.

Attack them for it.

[Q]

92. "Attacking" is the 'job' of our representatives...

...but there's little even THEY can do now that the Bushies have a firm hold on power. For justice to prevail there would have to be at least a few Republicans willing to stray from the pack and do what's right for the people instead of the Bushies.

- Think of the word 'coup' if you want a full understanding of the state of the union.

[JHB]

77. I'm not suggesting you buzz off...

...I'm trying to get you to take the other route. I'm suggesting you use your cynicism productively, and your defeatist original message was anything but.

Yes, Bush* has plenty of flying-monkey wingnuts in his corner, but there are many more who can be moved, if you engage them and make sense to them. You've a priori declared that to be impossible, so why bother trying? That's an especially unproductive act right now, when the state of the economy, the state of the occupation, and a continuing string of falsehoods put us the closest we've been to bursting their bubble than we've been in years.

[Q]

82. It's not 'unproductive' to understand the power of your enemy...

...and it's literally true that the GOP owns our government and most of the media. They have made the Dems in the house and senate irrelevant to the governing of this country. They don't believe in Democracy...only power.

- The point is that the only way the Dems will get back their voice in government is to expose the 'war on terrorism' for the sham that it is. Kennedy was right: this 'war' is a fraud...designed to prop up the Bush* regime and keep Republicans in power.

[skip fox]

80. Two soldiers (Libby and Rove?) will fall on their swords before

week's end. (My prediction.)

[lebkuchen]

81. Voting is going nowhere as well

The Bushies own the wealth, they own the media, they own the voting machines.

What's the point of voting? Look at what we're up against in California, for example, thanks to all of the above.

If we can count on the dumbest rednecks NOT voting, that leaves the burden on the Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are on the spot. They have to vote for a pervert mysogynic pro-choice buffoon just to keep a Demo from being elected. It wouldn't matter if the Demo was Christ himself. They even have a guy on the ballot (McClintock) who shares their views, but they won't support him because then a Demo might win. Falwell will forgive them for voting for this pervert because it's for "the good of the people."

So, you're right. The Bushies are the ruling class, and they can do what they want.

There's no point in belaboring the 2004 election anymore than we should make further discussion of our national security. It's already in the Bushies' hands. They do what they want, and we're out of the picture.

[robbedvoter]

83. Traitorgate is in the headlines. During elections. Good enough for me!

I guess it all depends on expectations.
Do I expect Asscrack to fry Karl on a stake in a public place? No. But do I expect a bit more people to become aware of what that nice guy you want to have a beer with is capable of? Yes. The story is good for us. It'll go for a while. Justice will have to follow power. The story will help taking back the power.

[Q]

86. But where is the Bush* connection?

- I believe that's the point.

- Reagan was 'in charge' when his staff sold 'weapons of mass destruction' to Iran ( and Iraq) and he's still considered a hero to the RWingers.

- You have to realize that the faithful on the Right will never blame Bush* for the 'mistakes' of others. Bush* will remain a 'hero' to the right...the anti-Clinton and the nemesis of the 'weak on defense' Democrats.

[Brucey]

87. I'm glad Q started this thread.

I took his post to be not only a statement of what he thought would transpire, but an expression of frustration and a notice to us what a big fight we have ahead. Of course, we cannot predict how far the Wilson case will go, but I believe Q is right that it will be impossible to tie it to Bush*. In fact, Wilson himself said he very much doubted that Bush* approved it because he had done service for Poppy Bush that was much appreciated. The repugs control everything is right, but there is a large minority who are very, very upset about it. This thing stinks and a lot of people have noses. Even though it won't fell the monster, it will add some more kindling to our fire - the number of replies to Q's post, and their intensity, show this is true. Keep posting Q.

[Q]

90. I'm as frustrated as everyone else...

...and at first I thought this story had 'legs'. But then I woke up and realized that we live in 'New' America...where the media works for one side and calls the other side 'partisan' whenever they ask that a Republican be held accountable.

- How many GIANT scandals have come and gone without the Bushies being held accountable? I'd bet that most of us can't even remember them all...and it's only been three years. What's going on? It's called the 'Reagan Memory Hole'...and it's worked well for Republicans for decades.

- We've been fighting a war of ideologies for decades now...and the 'Left' hasn't yet come to the realization that we lost. We continue to expect a miracle of sorts: the media to start telling the truth. Democracy to rekindle itself or a hero to appear and save the day. None of this is happening. So now it's up to the people.

On Edit: Some people seem to misunderstand why the 'right wing' media is discussing this issue. They're not discussing it because they want to get to the truth. They're doing it so they can't later be accused of helping the Bushies cover it up.

[Chovexani]

93. I respectfully disagree

I would agree with you, but this ain't just a run of the mill scandal, they pissed off the spooks.

Never, EVER fuck with the spooks.

[number6]

96. I disagree, but I get your point.

The press and all branches of gov are controlled
by repubs, however the story may still fly (I hope).

[LoZoccolo]

98. And this is supposed to motivate us to do...

...what?

[matcom]

99. YOU ARE SO FUCKING WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

believe me. YOU ARE SO FUCKING WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!