Why does anyone care about the Dean/back deferment crap anyway?

[ButterflyBlood]

something that's been brought up in Politics and Campaigns a million times and here occaisonally, basically saying that Dean brought in X-rays and deliberately tried to get a defferment, but then he went skiing so his back couldn't be that bad, blah blah blah, basically he very well could've done the equivalent of draft dodging. fine. so who cares? Is there anything wrong with getting out of being forced to fight in a hellhole for some bullshit war? Are you people honestly saying draft dodging is bad?

[AP]

1. Because it sounds like the way privileged people got out of Vietnam

It says things about wealth and class in America.

[StopTheMorans]

8. AP, he didn't ask for the deferment

the military gave it to him. How many ways don't you understand "HE DIDN'T ASK FOR IT"? It was their decision, not his.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

9. He Brought His Own Doctor Records In, He Didn't Just Rely on the Army Doc

It's quite clear what his intention was, and what his preferred result was.

Again, I don't think that's a huge deal; I just respect those who did serve more, and think they will have a great attack to make against AWOL Bush.

DTH

[StopTheMorans]

10. AWOL doesn't matter

Gore was in vietnam (albeit as a journalist) and * wasn't. Why does noone on the left get it? They'll call anyone unpatriotic, up to and including Clark, and they'll trump up charges to back it up. If the media wants to ignore something, they will, just like when Rove told them "this isn't a big issue" about AWOL's AWOLness in the last election. And so what if he brought his own doctor's records? he didn't pull any goddamn strings, and I think it's a damned weak attack. Do people making this attack support our being in vietnam? if not, then they shouldn't be making the attack, as I feel draft-dodging is NOBLE if the war is unjust. Anyone care to bite on that?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

15. I'm Not Quite That Cynical

If Gore had made it an issue, like he should have IMO, the media would have picked it up.

Yes, the whore media sucks, but they aren't going to ignore a good fight, because that's what sells.

DTH

[tjdee]

19. Especially because the problem wasn't that bad.

If he had a bad back, brought in his papers, and was deferred, that's one thing.

He didn't.

He brought in the papers discussing this problem, was deferred, and went out skiing for six weeks or whatever. But he *was* deffered by the board, and that isn't his fault. Obviously, he wasn't just going to lay in bed for the rest of his life--the army said they wouldn't need him. That's not his problem.

I think thousands of men did similar things. If I had a son, I would have wanted him to do this. But it isn't fair, that's just the reality.

[AP]

29. I know someone who got a deferment because he wore women's underwear

to his physical. His family wasn't wealthy, incidentally.

What if he ran for president?

[StopTheMorans]

34. did he believe in the moral righteousness of the war?

and, more importantly, is this a medical concern? apples and goddamn ostriches my friend :eyes:

[AP]

44. He probably felt exactly the same way Dean did, but, if

he had any hard-to-diagnose medical condition which didn't prevent him from engaging in any of the many sports he played in high school, he couldn't find a doctor to diagnose it. So he did what any lower middle class kid would do -- wore his mom's bra and panties to the physical.

[StopTheMorans]

47. your quote implies that Dean didn't have a condition

he didn't make it up, it was documented. Your quote implies that he had to find a doctor to find the thing. "he couldn't find a doctor to diagnose it" implies that Dean went searching far and wide for a doctor to make up some illness so he could get a deferment. you never come out and say it, but you keep implying it.

[AP]

61. I believe Dean was very physically active in High School

He was captain of the wrestling team and, correct me if I'm wong, he ran track.

He claims that he knew he had a physical problem because he experienced pain when he ran long distances.

I'm saying that lots of poorer kids who did all the same things he did and who didn't have access to doctor of the caliber Dean had might never have known they had a disqualifying condition.

I believe Dean didn't discover at the physical that he had the disqualifying problem. He went to the physical with the X-rays, prepared to make the argument. If he didn't know he had the condition, he wouldn't have had the X-rays, and might have even passed the physical.

I'm saying, basically, that this event says something about privilege, wealth and class, rather than about patriotism.

[StopTheMorans]

71. it may say something, but if you're going to start the

"class wars" arguments, that's another whole issue (I think it has nothing to do with fitness to be a president), although it would explain who you're supporting:)

[AP]

77. If you don't think class is a big issue, I want you to read

Wealth and Democracy and, when you're done, tell me honestly if you still believe that. Hell, just read the introduction, and tell me what you think.

[StopTheMorans]

94. i never said class isn't a big issue

but when you're talking about candidates for president, and you have to resort to how much money their parents made as a HUGE part of your critique for them, I feel it's a bit absurd (i'm not in the Kerry camp, but I don't hate him or his wife for access to her fortune of over 550 million). So money allows you to do things that you can't do otherwise? Should people who own larger TV's than 54 inches be disqualified from being president b/c the rest of us can't live like them? You can't expect people with a lot of money to live EXACTLY like people with no money, it's a pipe dream.

[AP]

108. I don't "hate" anyone based on wealth. I'm "worried" about

the ability of Dems to get the support of the middle class in a year when middle class opportunity will be the central concern of millions ans millions of voters if they run a guy whose life is a living symbol of detachment from the concerns of the middle class.

I think Kevin Phillips says the precise same thing about 2000 -- he said it was crazy that the Dems idea of a good candidate in the America that has been unfolding since 1972 (a world increasingly skewed in favor of the wealthy) was a guy nicknamed "Million Dollar" and a senator's son.

Bill Clinton's class roots were a big reason for his victories.

[AP]

62. I believe Dean was very physically active in High School

He was captain of the wrestling team and, correct me if I'm wong, he ran track.

He claims that he knew he had a physical problem because he experienced pain when he ran long distances.

I'm saying that lots of poorer kids who did all the same things he did and who didn't have access to doctor of the caliber Dean had might never have known they had a disqualifying condition.

I believe Dean didn't discover at the physical that he had the disqualifying problem. He went to the physical with the X-rays, prepared to make the argument. If he didn't know he had the condition, he wouldn't have had the X-rays, and might have even passed the physical.

I'm saying, basically, that this event says something about privilege, wealth and class, rather than about patriotism.

[TLM]

74. On what planet do you live where only the rich have access to a doctor?

"I'm saying that lots of poorer kids who did all the same things he did and who didn't have access to doctor of the caliber Dean had might never have known they had a disqualifying condition."


Maybe, and maybe not, but that's what the induction physical is for.


"I believe Dean didn't discover at the physical that he had the disqualifying problem. He went to the physical with the X-rays, prepared to make the argument. If he didn't know he had the condition, he wouldn't have had the X-rays, and might have even passed the physical."

I doubt that... the draft physical is pretty thorough from what I have been told by those who have gone through it. THey want to make damn sure there is nothing wrong with you before they Ok you for training.

[AP]

82. I don't think (but could be wrong) that you get X-rayed at

the induction physical. And I think that a guy who was as physically active as Dean might not have even realized he had a condition which would exclude him. And I don't think there are many doctors who would work so hard to find a condition to exclude a patient unless the doctor were getting paid, or had some other reason to try so hard (class solidarity?).

[TLM]

98. I think x-rays are triggered...

they are not standard, but if the person has outward signs of back issues or complains about pain etc. they do x-rays.

"And I don't think there are many doctors who would work so hard to find a condition to exclude a patient unless the doctor were getting paid, or had some other reason to try so hard (class solidarity?)."

You are inventing motives and devious actions... when this is nothing more than a medical examination that found a disk problem. Anybody with the same problem, rich or poor, could do the same thing with very few exceptions.

[AP]

106. I totally admit that I don't know the facts.

And I know that you don't know the facts either.

My point is that there is an unavoidable symbolism to this set of events.

It might be interesting to know more about the Doctor who took the X-rays, and maybe hear from the people on the draft board. Without that information, and short of knowing the truth, it's just an issue of perception. You may try to characterize the whole thing as a "move along folks, nothing to see here" kind of thing. But I think there is some very powerful symbolism in this even which might turn off working class and poor Dems and center right voters.

[TLM]

116. I understand how bad you want to spin this as class war crap...

but the fact just are not there.

Working people have access to medical care too and lots of poor folks were rejected by the draft board for physical conditions.

Dean did exactly what I'd have to do in the same situation, and I'm not rich or gettign special favors.

The fact you have to act like gettign a doctor's note is somethign only the rich can do, shows how hard you are looking to make some hay out of this.

[AP]

121. I don't want to spin it. I HONESTLY feel this is the most important

issue in America today. I think it's not accident that Bush has the class roots that he has and that he's trying to create a world in which his cronies are ensured wealth and power and everyone else is turned into a wage slave, and that whatever meager wealth those people create for America gets transferred to Bush's cronies.

I don't think Democrats can win unless they run candidates who, when you put them next to Bush, make people realize what Bush really is. I think that Dean's biography is way to similar to Bush's to make people realize what the real issues in America are today.

[JohnKleeb]

78. I dunno AP

My candiate Kucinich played high school sports too, but was diagonsed with a heart condition as a Senior and this is simliar to what I got. Well Ive read that Dennis was disappointed he couldnt go like his brothers did and like his dad did in WWII. This doesnt matter to me that Dean didnt serve, if he had supported Nam then I would understand.

[AP]

91. OK, but if I heard tha Kucinich was diagnosed with a heart

condition as a Senior, I'm thinking, he must really have had a serious heart condition, 'cause he was poor. Usually poor people find out about their physical problems later than other people (if at all) and only after they have manifested themselves.

I'd like to know more details. Was it a prolapsed valve, or something like that which is a standard, easy to diagnose problem?

[JohnKleeb]

128. yes he was poor

I dont know details. I think it could had been that he was playing sports and he felt a pain and he went to the doctors. I have a family history of murmurs which dont disqualify you but what I got is far worse. I dont have the details, but he is the most dovish candiate in the race, so if he didnt serve I dont care, I would for sure respect him still if he was a vet of course. I am not sure about the details. I really am not.http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/Nation/DB88CD9E7D0290E586256D920032A060?OpenDocument&Headline=Kucinich%2Bthe%2Bstreet%2Bfighter%2Bjabs%2Bfrom%2Bleft%2Bin%2Buphill%2Bfight
"Kucinich was a pint-sized catcher in sandlot ball, and he never grew very tall; he is 5 feet 7 inches and weighed in at about 130 pounds for the primary campaign. He played football, too, and at an orientation session for new House members, he passed out a football card - of himself as a 4-foot-9, 97-pound third-string quarterback.

His sports career was cut short, perhaps mercifully, when doctors discovered scarring on a heart valve before his senior year - a problem that also would keep him out of the military during the Vietnam War."
Thats also proof he was quite athletic and not a geek at all. He reminds me of my uncle in that respect, a short guy yet athletic. I am not sure why he didnt play basketball, hes part Yugoslav thats what Kucinich the last name is, Croatian, and they love basketball. Hes also part Irish. Thats a good article.

[ButterflyBlood]

68. if he was qualified, I doubt it would hurt him

Believe it or not, "I didn't agree with Vietnam so I dodged the draft" isn't going to send the average American or swing voter raging mad. Most would easily accept it. And most probably did or would've done the same thing.

I'm quite suprised though that getting a defferment would be that easy though.

[AP]

75. I believe that, as things progressed, it became harder to

get a deferrment. But, if you did something crazy like that in the early years, and if you weren't totally poor and easy to push around, then you could get away with it and be permanently deferrred.

As for dodging the draft, I think dodging the draft would be a bigger problem in 2004 than 1992. But I also don't think this is a story about dodging the draft (after all, he did have the physical condition). It's a story about privilege, class and wealth. It's a story about Dean having options which weren't available to others. It's about getting an easier path through life than the next guy. And I don't think rolling up your sleeves is enough to prove that you know what it's like to walk that other path.

[TLM]

20. What is this about him bring ing his own records in?

I have seen this claim made as someone claiming he would have had to do this... but have seen no proof.

"It's quite clear what his intention was, and what his preferred result was."

Can you cite a source on this?

I mean was this some special big deal thing, or just the standard info all draft inductiees bring with them?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. See My Post #27, Below (eom)

DTH

[CO Liberal]

87. Speaking As a Former Draft Counsellor......

....and as someone who was subject to the draft, let me jump in here.

Selective Service regulations entitled all men to the lowest classification for which they were eligible. 1-A (eligible for immediate draft into the service) was the highest, 4-F (medically unsuitable for service) was one of the lowest. And you had the right to bring any support documents or other evidence with you to the physical to back up your claims.

For example, I ruptured my spleen in February of 1971, and had it removed. When I was called in for my physical in December of 1971, I had letters from my family doctor and the surgeon who removed my sspleen, stating that I could not do any heavy lifting. Plus I was about eight pounds below their weight minimum.

I was called back for another physical six months later. And since I was still underweight, I received a permanent 4-F.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

144. Evidence of that?

I could be wrong, but I believe he said on Meet the Press that he had a military physical, and that he named the site where it was done. Do you have a link that would prove that he brought a not from his own doctor?

One more bat to go!

[AP]

11. I probably would have done the same thing

and I would probably expect to pay the political price if I ran for president.

Look, I realize he had a medical condition. He showed up with the X-rays, ready to get out. I think lots of poor people would never have known they even had a condition that would have gotten them out in the first place, they would have gone through the physical, nobody would have figured out the problem (Dean said the problem only manifested itself if he ran long distances? Wasn't he on the track team? Do they make you run long distances in the physical?). So your average, poor draftee ends up in the Army and maybe in basic training the condition would have been caught. MAYBE. And, if it was caught, the soldier would have been transferred to a non-combat position.

I'm not saying this whole incident is a bad reflection on Dean. It's a reflection on class and wealth in America. If you had to pick between Dean and Kerry, you'd definitely prefer the symbolism created by Kerry's biography on this matter (ie, if you're going to be wealthy, you better show that you were willing to get down in the trenches with the poor people).

[ButterflyBlood]

13. What about Clinton?

n/t

[AP]

25. According to The Hunting of the President, after a friend of

Clinton's died in Vietnam, he chose not to take advantage of a deferment for which he was elligible. He exposed himself to the draft and his number didn't come up. I don't know how much spin is in that characterization of events (and it isn't mine--it's conason's and lyon's characterization).

In any event, I said that this issue says more about PRIVILEGE, WEALTH AND CLASS, then it says about willingess to serve in an evil war. Clinton didn't need to do anything more than point to his life experiences to solidify his bona fides on the important issues of privilege, wealth and class.

[GalleryGod]

84. Clinton's Draft Lottery # was the Same As mine: 319.

It was irrelevant to one of us.:pals: August 19th Birthday..Tipper wasn't in the lottery.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. I Don't Think It's a Huge Deal Any More, But I Do Have More Respect

for those who did serve, like Wes Clark, Al Gore and John Kerry, among others.

I also think it's a great potential avenue of attack against AWOL Bush, and only a person who served will be able to make that attack.

DTH

[SEAburb]

3. I'm don't support Dean and I think it's a non-issue / nt

..................

[ComerPerro]

4. Well, I don't have any problem with it

But I think average Americans would. I think Rove will use this, and I think it will get national news coverage. Conservatives (dumb as they are) will start calling it "BackGate" or some stupid shit like that.

Who cares that Bush signed up and then just one day stopped because he couldn't pass a drug test? This is the Bizzarro world.

[HFishbine]

5. Question for Mods/Admins

Yesterday I expressed my intention to vote against the GD posting rules. Now I see that they've been modified and now I'm reconsidering.

Here's my test for how I'll vote. Would the original post for this thread be denied or allowed under the proposed rules?

[tjdee]

6. I'm torn--it's not fair. But...

I'm torn on the issue.

I do think its unfair to get out of the draft to a degree--I'm sure most people wanted to get out of it, but the poorer people just got screwed. Not everyone's daddy could get them a spot in the National Guard, etc. So that is unfair.

And it makes the sacrifice of those who DID serve that much greater.

On the other hand, I would do whatever it took to make sure my kid stayed alive, and they couldn't hold a war if no one came (but again, not everyone could 'dodge'). Plus, I think we owe a lot of college degrees and subsequent professional people to Vietnam.

I'm torn on the issue.

[TLM]

28. You do know Dean's brother died in vietnam, right?

And Dean did go to nam later to try and recover his brother's remains.


But the fact is that Dean was rejected by the draft... no special treatment, no special favors, no national guard. Dean went to the draft induction physical and they said that his disk issue meant a rejection.

Pure money issue for the military... they do not want to take the risk training someone who might be more likely to get hurt because that costs them money.

[AP]

69. Didn't his brother die in, like 76 or 77??

And he almost definitely wasn't a soldier. People here have suggested that he was probably in the CIA (like Dean's father was probably in the CIA).

[StopTheMorans]

73. nope, I believe that he died in '73

but I may be wrong.

[AP]

97. Dean was skiing in 73, right? I thought his brother died

when he was working on Wall St, which was the reason Dean decided to reevaluate working on Wall St.

[TLM]

103. Do you think Dean skied for a living?

Dean went on a ski trip... and you've got him on the slopes 24/7 for a year or two now?


BTW his brother was killed in 74.

[AP]

110. How long did he live in Aspen (?) after he graduated?

When did he move back to NY to start work on Wall St?

[TLM]

88. Here is the info....

Closing the Circle:
Vermont Gov. Howard Dean and His MIA Brother

BY JIM BELSHAW

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean has not yet found his brother, Charles, missing for 28 years and reported to have been executed in 1974 in Laos. But the New England Democrat said he found at least some measure of peace after standing near the Vietnam border in the Laotian rice paddy where he believes his brother is buried. Like so many others searching for answers about loved ones who never came home from Southeast Asia, Dean said that while the information may be far from complete, what he found after so long brought him one step nearer to closing the circle.

Charles Dean, then 24, was traveling around the world when he and an Australian friend, Neil Sharman, were detained on Sept. 4, 1974, by the Pathet Lao, a communist nationalist group opposed to the U.S.-supported government of Laos in the 1960s and 1970s. Held in a prison camp for more than three months, the men are believed to have been executed on Dec. 14 while being taken to Vietnam.

In news reports prior to his departure for Laos, Gov. Dean said he was unsure of whether the Laotians or the Vietnamese executed his brother. The Pathet Lao apparently considered Charles Dean and Neil Sharman spies because they were carrying cameras. At the time of their capture, the American and Australian governments vehemently protested the detention, saying the men were only tourists.

[blm]

83. His brother was likely CIA working for Poppy

and they were doing pretty evil things in Laos at the time.

Even Dean has said they can't rule out that his brother was working for the CIA at the time, that usually translates to "Yes he was but we're not permitted to confirm it."

[TLM]

113. How low will you sink?

"Even Dean has said they can't rule out that his brother was working for the CIA at the time, that usually translates to "Yes he was but we're not permitted to confirm it."

Yeah BLM because we know how many 24 year old kids are really deep cover CIA agents.

[AP]

You know how the CIA recruits 21 year olds out of college?

What do you think they make them do once they have them? Do you think they send them on ski trips until they're hardened 27 year olds?

[blm]

135. Take it up with Dean. It's not my story.

.

[Forkboy]

119. Unbelievable

you're turning into a real piece of work blm.

[blm]

134. sorry, but, even Dean says its likely.

Why blame me?

[clar]

141. Doubtful that he was CIA

I read an article a couple of weeks ago with intervies with several of Charlie Dean's UNC friends. They all doubted he was CIA. BTW one of those mentioned in the article as a good friend of Charlie's was Elizabeth Edwards. Charlie Dean was a a well known campus liberal activist.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

85. Dean's brother died in LAOS in 1974- and he was not a soldier

but it does help to explain Dean's heavy drinking and admitted "survivor's guilt".

[TLM]

107. Cheap shot... and all too typical.

First Dean has no history of HEAVY drinking... in fact I think his comments on the subejct were that he wasn't a very good drinker and didn't hold his booze well, so he doesn't drink.


And what a calous asshole thing to say about a man who lost his brother, and never got to even burry the body or say goodbye.

I see that as tragic, and you see it as an oppertunity for another crass political cheap shot.

welcome to ignore.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

114. Dean said it himself

ignore facts all you want, it seems to be a popular MO around here.
However, for those who are interested in facts, your post could be construed by some that Dean's brother was fighting the war in Vietnam.
BTW heavy drinking = ANY amount which is too much.

[AP]

115. OK, I'm not saying that he was a big drinker. However,

a couple months ago there was, linked here, a story in the Yale student paper which interviewed Dean's college friends.

They said that the keg always ended up in Dean's room after the party ended, and people would hang out there. They said that, rather than study, they'd play cards the night before exams. They said that, rather than study, Dean would decide late at night that they should all drive to NYC or NC on a moments notice.

Meanwhile, Lieberman, Kucinich, Edwards, Sharpton and Gephardt were working their asses off trying to make sure they had a future.

[Mairead]

131. I would agree that we owe a lot of college degrees, etc., to the war

But in my book, they should have been distributed more evenly over the population. So I'm strongly opposed to people getting a free pass because they exploited their wealth and privilege. Too many poor kids had/have no such options. Even *smart* poor kids.

[WoodrowFan]

7. Doesn't bother me, but

I think it'd be a HUGE wedge issue for the repubs. (I am assuming it was a legit deferment and have no reason to think otherwise.)

[ButterflyBlood]

12. it didn't hurt Clinton

or AWOL George for that matter. I'm pretty sure most Americans would oppose Vietnam in retrospect and most oppose the draft, so draft dodging in Vietnam wouldn't hurt.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

100. Clinton Was Pre-9/11 (eom)

DTH

[OKNancy]

14. Don't support Dean

but of all the issues, it ranks as a zero on a ten point scale in importance. Lots of very fine people avoided the draft, and not just for selfish reasons. I give him the benefit of the doubt.

[kstewart33]

16. More ammunition for Bush

From one draft dodger to another. But it will not go down well and will not help Dean one bit.

[ButterflyBlood]

18. If he was running against someone like McCain it might work

but against AWOL George?

[TLM]

17. What is this x-ray crap.... I've seen nothing to prove this.

Someone talking out their ass said Dean would have to have taken his own x-rays into the physical... which I think is bullshit.

As I understand it Dean didn't even know he had a back condition until the draft physical, when they found a disk problem.

Now while this was not a problem that disabled Dean, it was a problem for the military. They don't take people who have this disk issue because the risk of injury is too great. They don’t want to waste money training some guy only to have him rupture a disk in boot camp, or worse in some combat mission.

Just like they won't take you if you have scoliosis.

I personally have a knee problem, my kneecap is in the wrong place because my patellar tendon is too long. If I went to join up, I’d be shown the door. Doesn’t mean I can’t still walk, or run, or even ski.

It means I have a physical condition that, while not disabling, the military considers too high risk. That’s why they have the induction physical in the first place.

Dean went to his draft induction and was rejected. That’s not dodging the draft, that’s the draft dodging you.

[ButterflyBlood]

23. I have scoliosis

hell yes!

[Mairead]

24. Sorry, you're behind the times

It was reported in the Boston Globe, it named the doc who wrote the letter and illuminated the diagnosis and the disposition of the records after (they were all destroyed, and the doc is now dead).

[TLM]

51. Ahhh but it also says that Dean did have this disk issue

the unfused disk thing means the military didn't want him.

How is that dodging the draft... to go to the draft and get rejected?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. You Are Mistaken, Dean Did Carry His Own X-Rays In

In February of 1970, with the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old Howard Dean carried a set of X-rays and a letter from a Manhattan orthopedist named Hudson Wilson to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, where US military doctors determined that he was not fit for military service because of a back condition called spondylolisthesis.

Dean was classified 1Y, according to military records, meaning he was exempt from service for the duration of the war and free to head to Colorado after his Yale graduation, where he skied at Aspen and poured concrete. Spondylolisthesis is a condition caused by an unfused vertebra. When diagnosed nearly four years earlier, he was cleared to participate in all sports except long-distance running.

<...>

The basis for his classification is difficult to document. The Selective Service System, following standard procedure, destroyed all records in Dean's file save his classification listings. Dean said he did not keep copies of the X-rays or Wilson's letter. Nor did he keep a copy, he said, of the letter he believes he wrote requesting a deferral from military service. His physician, Wilson, is dead.

Dean drew a relatively low lottery number -- 143 out of 300 -- meaning he could have been called up after college, according to Lewis Brodsky, a Selective Service spokesman.

At Yale, Dean did not support the war but was not vocal. He took part in one protest, by his count. He said he was not overly worried about being drafted and said the reason he wrote a letter seeking a military medical exam was to clarify his standing.

<...>

In high school, Dean considered having an operation to relieve the back condition but decided against it because it required a long convalescence. In college, he played intramural football. In Vermont, Dean hiked half of the 265-mile Long Trail and canoed the entire Connecticut River. Today, Dean says, the back injury still causes occasional pain.

<...>

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/09/21/a_back_condition_wins_dean_a_vietnam_era_draft_deferment/

[TLM]

49. I would think that the draft folks would have done their own x-rays.

To keep someone from bringing in someone else's...

But from the sound of it, Dean did nothing more nefarious than take his medical records to the draft board, and was indeed found to not be fit for service.


I still do not see how this is an issue.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

54. It Will Be an Issue for Some

Particularly those who respect military service, especially in the South.

The danger here is that by affirmatively bringing in the records, his motive and desired result is clear: to avoid the draft. Another danger is his wealthy background, which arguably afforded him the ability to have a personal doctor examine him for what appears to be a rather minor condition. This is an advantage that many, many poor people did not have.

Again, none of that is a big deal to me, but it will be a big issue for some. Bush won't hesitate to use his fortune to smear Dean on this issue. We will have to be ready for it if Dean wins the nomination.

DTH

[molly]

55. Sounds like Rush Limbaugh's Viet Nam Deferment

http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm

When Rush Limbaugh first came of draft age he held a 2-S (college deferment) Selective Service System classification as a student at Southeast Missouri State University in 1969-70, but after he dropped out of college at the end of his first year he no longer qualified for a student deferment and was subject to being reclassified as 1-A (available immediately for military service) and drafted. Selective Service System records show that Limbaugh was reclassified as 1-Y (qualified for service only in time of war or national emergency) on 24 November 1970, which effectively ended his draft eligibility and ensured that he would not be called for service.

What was the basis of Limbaugh's 1-Y classification? The Selective Service System records still available indicate that the classification was not assigned on psychological or moral grounds, but because of a physical problem. And since there are no records indicating that Limbaugh was ever examined by a physician at an Armed Forces Entrance Examining Station (i.e., he never underwent a pre-induction physical), the 1-Y classification was almost certainly assigned based on a report Limbaugh had his own doctor prepare and submit to his draft board. (No implication that the report was fabricated is intended; the point is merely to note that Limbaugh's deferment was based upon an examination conducted by a private doctor, not one administered by an Armed Services physician.)

[Mairead]

21. The real issue is: chickenhawkery

Dean is willing to send the children of the poor (who don't have access to xrays or doctor's letters) off to take risks and commit acts that he wasn't personally willing to take or commit.

That's the real issue. That's the only reason why it's important. If his ducking out had been an expression of his committed opposition to non-last-resort wars, nobody would have a problem with it. But it wasn't.

[ButterflyBlood]

22. when was Dean a hawk?

ironic considering Rove's attack plan seems to be to make it seem like Dean is some peacenik hippie.

[Mairead]

36. Right now. He wasn't and isn't opposed to wars, but only opposed to

the Iraq invasion. And he only became opposed to that after his Salon interview with Tapper, published 20. Feb. He's on record as having been for it, up til and including that time. He apparently 'evolved' overnight, because in an article published 21. Feb., he'd switched his stance.

[ButterflyBlood]

57. Your logic is still pretty poor

you're basically saying that to be in favor of ANY wars (such as WWII), one must be willing to fight in any war, even one like the Iraq invasion or Vietnam. Obviously it doesn't take a genius to see someone who would support WWII but not Iraq or Vietnam.

[sangh0]

140. Because you're missing the point

If Dean avoided service in VN because he ideologically opposed to it, then he should have burned his draft card, and protested the war. AFAIK, Dean did NOT protest thte war, but when it was his turn to serve, he took actions to avoid serving, NOT because he was opposed to the war, but because HE didn't want to go.

I don't blame him for not wanting to go, but that's not the same as a principled opposition to the war.

[StopTheMorans]

26. is it Mai?

I think you're completely misusing the term. A chickenhawk is someone who is willing to send others to die in their place for (key phrase here) A WAR THAT THEY BELIEVE IN. Dean didn't believe in vietnam; therefore he doesn't meet the definition of the term.

[Mairead]

39. Sorry, I've never heard that definition. That would let them all off,

wouldn't it. All they need to say is 'I didn't believe in that war'. Oh, okay, here's your pass.

Uh-uh. Nope. A chickenhawk is a hawk who was chicken.

[StopTheMorans]

41. nope

wrong, it wouldn't let Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, or Delay off (they all felt that vietnam was right). so, where's your argument again?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. I've Heard Both Definitions Used (eom)

DTH

[Mairead]

67. Yep.

I owe the research for this article to Steven Fowle {interesting surname}, a Vietnam veteran who edits The New Hampshire Gazette. He has compiled a list of politicians and public opinion leaders who advocate war but never served in the military. His web site is called "The Chickenhawk Database" <www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.htm>. Fowle’s definition of a "chickenhawk" is a "public person" who advocates or fervently supports "military solutions to political problems" and who has "personally declined to take advantage of a significant opportunity to served in uniform during wartime." {emp. added}

http://www.sover.net/~mjez/newspapercolumns/chickenhawks.htm



Jeff Hauser has what is probably the simplest and best summation of what a chickenhawk actually is:

folks who have in the past supported wars (hence, "hawks") in which they were unwilling to fight (hence, "chicken") have no moral authority to order others to fight. It's one thing to avoid fighting in an immoral war like Vietnam BECAUSE it was immoral -- it's another to have thought the war an imperative; an imperative, that is, only to OTHERS.

http://www.pandagon.net/archives/00000159.htm



You apparently do not understand what a "chickenhawk" is. It is a person who found a way to avoid serving in his country's military during time of war -- when all about him men were being drafted -- and yet is blithe to send other young men off to die in a war.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/09/08_Chickenhawk.html



The generally accepted definition of the term, which dates at least back to 1988, describes chickenhawks as public persons, generally male, who advocate war but who declined a significant opportunity to serve in uniform during wartime.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michaelkelly/mk20021030.shtml
(this guys a rightwinger, but I thought I'd include him because he acknowledges that it's a term with an accepted definition)



There has been for some time now a word floating around the political lexicon: "Chickenhawk." The accepted definition of the word is, "One who tends to advocate, or are fervent supporters of those who advocate, military solutions to political problems, and who have personally declined to take advantage of a significant opportunity to serve in uniform during wartime."

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000860.php

[dfong63]

129. so in order not to be a "chickenhawk", by your definition,

you have to either be a complete pacifist, or else go fight in the first war that comes your way, even if you don't believe in it?

i say bullsh*t.

[Mairead]

136. Fine. Say what you like. Do you think I care?

(And it's not my definition. Note those citations.)

[TLM]

59. LOL! So no having a doctor is special access?

"poor (who don't have access to xrays or doctor's letters)"

If they live in vermont they all have access to doctor's letters and x-rays... thanks to Dean.



I have a doctor, and have had x-rays taken of me, and I'm far from rich.

In fact were there a drft today, I could go get my medical records and take in x-rays of my knees to show I have a condition that means I'm not fit for service.

I'm far from rich or privilaged.

"that he wasn't personally willing to take or commit."

He went to the draft induction physical... they could have just as easily said, nope sorry, your disk problem isn't bad enough for us to bounce you. I think to dodge the draft, you sort of have to avoid the whole induction process.

Dean's broter was also killed in vietnam... so you might want to check your personal sacrafice bullshit.

[Mairead]

72. I think you should ...do something.

His brother was killed in Laos.

And believe me, if you 'have a doctor' you don't know what poor is.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mairead]

126. No, you don't know.

[Cha]

76. You are laying all the points out of why this is a non-issue

very well! Thank you! From what I've heard Dean's brother and a friend were traveling in Cambodia and was killed as he was thought to be a spy. I could be wrong.

[NNN0LHI]

138. You keep saying that he reported for a draft induction physical

That does not sound right to me. I have read this and it looks like Dean wrote them a letter. Not for an induction physical. But for an appointment to clarify his standing with the draft board. And this is when he was 21 years old. Guys were getting drafted when they were 19 in 1970 if I am correct. So that means he already would have had to applied for and recieved a college deferment by this time.

Don

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/09/21/a_back_condition_wins_dean_a_vietnam_era_draft_deferment/

<snip>The basis for his classification is difficult to document. The Selective Service System, following standard procedure, destroyed all records in Dean's file save his classification listings. Dean said he did not keep copies of the X-rays or Wilson's letter. Nor did he keep a copy, he said, of the letter he believes he wrote requesting a deferral from military service. His physician, Wilson, is dead.

<snip>At Yale, Dean did not support the war but was not vocal. He took part in one protest, by his count. He said he was not overly worried about being drafted and said the reason he wrote a letter seeking a military medical exam was to clarify his standing.

[VermontDem2004]

31. It's a non issue

The doctor said he was unfit to serve, take it up with the doctor, not doctor Dean but the doctor who said he was unfit to serve.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. That Doctor Is Dead, and If You're Rich, You Can Try Many Doctors

Until you get the one who says what you want.

Note: I'm NOT saying that's what Dean necessarily did.

DTH

[VermontDem2004]

46. Well don't make any assumptions

unless you were there or you have facts, I mean some of the comments here are getting rediculous.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. Just Stating a Common Truth

Rich people have advantages that poor people do not. Many wealthy people did exactly what I just said.

DTH

[dolstein]

32. My problem

My problem isn't that he was able to get out of servicing in the military because of a bad back. That's certainly a lot better than Limbaugh, who appearntly avoided service because of a boil on his ass.

My problem is what he did afterwards. He became a ski bum. I just find that to be in poor taste.

[StopTheMorans]

38. oh so I get it

so the military doesn't draft him, and he's supposed to wear black all day, sit in bed, and not do anything until the conclusion of the war? That's really logical :eyes:

[TLM]

66. Still waiting for anybody to point out how skiing is harder than boot camp

or for that matter, combat.


Dean was not rejected because he was a cripple but because he has a condition that means he is a greater risk for injury under the high physical stress of military training and combat.

So how is being a ski bum more stressful than that?

[Lady President]

33. For me, it matters very little

I don't have a problem with anyone who didn't serve in an unjust war. (For the record, if Dean gets the nomination, I will support him completely.) I see two potential problems: First, there will be the impression that another wealthy son received a questionable deferment. As sickening as it is, AWOL will end up looking like the military candidate. Second, older voters still want candidates with military experience. They are the ones who actually had to fight in our wars, just or unjust, and think everyone else should have too. If you talk to anyone over 65 or so, they can tell you stories about friends/family who hid health problems in order to pass physicals and serve. The older voters are the ones who always come out on election day and we need their votes desperately.

Personally, I do have additional respect for the candidates who were in the military, but it is not a make or break issue.

[Karmadillo]

35. Saying draft dodging isn't bad is not necessarily an argument one

would want to make during a general election (especially regarding a war when the poor were forced to fight and die and the more well off were forced to get a doctor's excuse or extra graduate degrees).

It also takes the AWOL issue off the table. While someone like Kerry or Clark wouldn't necessarily raise it on their own (fine with me if they did), it might serve to make the Republicans think twice about the scope of their personal attack campaign.

[ButterflyBlood]

40. but the fact is, most people would agree

most people now oppose a draft, and they oppose Vietnam in retrospect, so I don't see why they would have a problem with draft dodging.

[Karmadillo]

93. Hard to imagine the media would filter it that way. Here's how Russert

dealt with it and I imagine Judy Woodruff and lots of other Republican sycophants will treat it similarly (and they probably won't forget to mention his wrestling and running track in high school and they'll might even note his answer below glosses over the fact he brought his own x-rays with him--assuming the information in post#27 above is accurate). I'm not saying this is a fair way to pick a President (Russert had every opportunity to ask Bush about his preferential entry into the National Guard and his subsequent desertion during a time of war and intentionally didn't do so--clear bias), but I am saying the media will treat the issue far more harshly than it's treated here at DU.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Russert: Let me turn to a Boston Globe article about the military service during the Vietnam War as it applies to you and I’ll put it on the screen. “Dean did not serve in the military during the Vietnam War because he received a medical deferment for an unfused vertebra in his back. Several articles in the last year have noted that after his deferment, Dean spent 80 days skiing in Aspen, Colorado.” And then The Aspen Times wrote this profile. “In Howard Dean, we could have a president who spent the winter of 1971-72...pounding bumps on Aspen Mountain. ‘I paid $250 for a ski pass and skied 80 days on Ajax. It was the greatest mountain. ... I went to work pouring concrete for a small company.’” Why were you able to ski on Ajax Mountain, pounding your back, and pouring concrete, and not serve in the military?
Dean: First of all, let me say that there’s only one person who’s contending for the Democratic nominee for president who did serve in the military, nomination for president, and then let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

[Toucano]

43. It doesn't matter to me.

But they will make a big deal about it in the general and it will hurt him.

[ButterflyBlood]

48. Because AWOL George's record is so much better?

anyway, I imagine similar things were said about Clinton.

[ButterflyBlood]

45. Georgia Senate race

just a point about this:

If a blatant draft dodging chickenhawk can beat a triple limb amputee veteran in a state like Georgia, why can't someone with a questionable deferment beat an AWOL in a nationwide race?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. Because Thugs Have More Money and Better Perception on Defense

I think the last poll I saw was something on the order of 75/25 skewed in favor of the Thugs.

Wes Clark will change that, he will recapture the mantle for the Democrats.

DTH

[StopTheMorans]

53. that's a bold assumption

many dems keep assuming that just b/c we put someone up with a military record, they will challenge the "weak on defense thing". it's been discussed ad nauseum. Daschle served, look what they do to him. Cleland served. Kerry served and they say "he looks french". It simply doesn't matter. Military service has proven to be a non-issue in the past two elections. Both winners (if you choose to call the Idiot that) were called "draft dodgers" although Clinton did it for a moral purpose, and both beat men with better military service records than they had.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. Clark Will Do It Better Than Anyone Else in the Field Except MAYBE Kerry

He wasn't just a soldier, he was a GENERAL. He was not a career politician, he served his country for his entire career in the military.

The smears will be MUCH harder for them to make against Clark.

Regardless, he's better insulated than anyone else in the field, except perhaps Kerry. Certainly he's better insulated than anyone who didn't serve, or who deliberately avoided the opportunity to serve.

DTH

[StopTheMorans]

58. I still say it's a non-issue

neither a positive nor a negative. They smeared the shit out of Clinton with it v. Bob Dole, and look what happened. Doesn't matter in the least IMHO, and won't this year either.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

64. How Can You Deny Clark Will Be Better Insulated on This Issue Than Dean?

It is like comparing an apple with an orange.

YES, we can count on the Thugs to throw the kitchen sink at both of them. BUT, the American people (the reasonable ones, anyway) are going to be MUCH MORE LIKELY to dismiss criticism of Clark than Dean when it comes to issues of defense, the military, patriotism, and chickenhawk status. Like it or not, perception plays a huge role in politics these days, and the perception is that a General who served with distinction and was wounded four times in Vietnam is more difficult to impeach than someone who did not serve and arguably affirmatively tried to avoid serving.

DTH

[molly]

90. Before 9-11 - before Iraq

[DoveTurnedHawk]

95. Good Point, Molly (eom)

DTH

[StopTheMorans]

104. I don't think it's different

being a General does not necessarily make you a great commander-in-chief, and I don't necessarily think it makes you more credible in "the war on terror". It simply makes you a good soldier.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

109. Supreme Allied Commander of Europe and NATO Is A Lot More Than

Just being "a good soldier."

Come on, can't you admit the basic and self-evident proposition that it will be AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT harder to smear Clark than Dean on this? I'm sure that admitting it will improve your credibility, because denying or avoiding it as you have been just seems ridiculous, IMO.

DTH

[StopTheMorans]

125. i'm not denying or avoiding, I actually thought you were:)

seriously. I will admit that, IN THEORY, in a world where republicans dont lie, and don't get their lies into print, that would matter. But that's not the world I live in, and I live in Boston. Where do you live:)? Seriously, I'll admit that it might make it "a wee bit" harder to smear Clark, but not much. Pukes will smear whoever we put up however they want, that's why we need a candidate who is strong on the issues, and isn't afraid to give it back to them. I don't care if our candidate wears a uniform or not.

[Cha]

70. I like your sig line! And I see the point of your question.

My husband would have gone to Canada had he been drafted had I not been with child. It was a bogus war started by bogus men.

If I know Dean and his campaign People they will not let the chickenhawks define this or any other issue for Dean.

Dean is just too smart to let the shits get away with it!

[retyred]

60. Hasn't it been reported here

that Dean said he supported the Viet Nam war? was that a lie? Why seek a defferment to get out of a war if you support it? Or did he like some others, support it as long as he didn't have to go himself?

Excuse me but, bringing in his own doctor records means he did seek a defferment.



CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
"I'm going to give them the TRUTH and they'll THINK it's hell."
Retyred IN FLA.

[blm]

63. He certainly didn't spend time protesting the war.

And just about every young person who was against the war at the time was hitting the streets at some point.

[StopTheMorans]

79. blm, I know you like to bash Dean

but you're lying too, see the article above, he did attend at least one protest.

[blm]

92. Why attack me personally?

I don't bash Dean unfairly. He spent 80 days skiing and CLAIMS he went to 1 protest during the entire Vietnam conflict. That's not exactly spending his time protesting.

[StopTheMorans]

99. but that's not going to "no protests" either

and you lied about it, and now you're qualifying the lie without admitting it was a lie. Maybe the personal thing wasn't fair, but i'm just speaking on experience and past posts.

[blm]

112. I said: He certainly didn't spend time protesting the war.

The war in Vietnam.

The other protests I talked about him refusing to attend were the Iraq antiwar protests, while he was claiming to be the antiwar candidate. Don't think he didn't discuss it with his campaign advisors. They would have and obviously decided it was a bad idea and a WORSE picture.

[StopTheMorans]

117. but HE DID spend time protesting the war in Vietnam

how many ways do I need to say it?

[blm]

127. I said: 80 days skiing compared to 1 protest rally

over a very long conflict (that he claims to have attended) doesn't make for a sincere commitment against the war does it?

[StopTheMorans]

137. I don't know?

can you quantify "sincere"? Can you really put a time commitment on "feelings"? Say what you want, he said he was against it. If Clark can say he's a democrat after voting for Nixon and have people believe him, then this is way less of an issue. I think you're looking for bones to pick simply b/c you don't like Dean and your horse is stalled.

[blm]

139. HAHA...my horse

is just beginning to make his move. My horse is a pacer who knows how to run the LONG race. My horse has one of the best endorsements ANY pol can get. The IAFF are the fiercest campaigners in politics and they have been activated as of Monday. we can revisit your claim two months from now.

[StopTheMorans]

147. oh I welcome that

your horse doesn't have the legs. He's a tired old boy, and he looks it too;) And look at the two other top horses now, they both opposed the war (to whatever degree you want to argue, but they did), and that's a lot of the reason that they're up there and ol' Johnny's move will never happen.

[Cha]

111. So Dean went skiing ..."he got on with his life"....Good for him!

Bogus Fucking Wars!

[StopTheMorans]

65. watch it, you're lying

No, Dean did not, and never did, support the war, and all you have to do is go up the thread to find it. He protested the war as an undergrad at Yale (marched in a rally). What more do you want?

[Mairead]

80. Yes, *one* rally. He claims.

[molly]

81. And that was a VERY LONG war

[DoveTurnedHawk]

89. Correction: He CLAIMS He Attended One Rally

There is no other corroborating evidence other than his word, according to this article.

Now, I have no real reason to doubt him; in fact, I believe him. I just wish more people would accept the word of MY chosen candidate more often, especially given that all military men are required to follow a code of conduct that prohibits lying, and by all credible accounts, Clark followed that code faithfully.

DTH

[Cha]

105. And I didn't attend ANY rallies and I was against the vietnam

war as any sane person was.

I attended my first anti-war rally Feb.15, 2003 in New York City!

Another bogus war started by lying, murdering, thieves.

[retyred]

96. My apology

I'm not lying....I thought it was reported here on DU thay Dean supported every war but this last one.


CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
"I'm going to give them the TRUTH and they'll THINK it's hell."
Retyred IN FLA.

[ibegurpard]

86. Why are you conceding this issue?

He got a deferrment. End of story. Anyone who tries to make it more than that is muckraking.

[Mairead]

101. Because all the chickenhawks got deferments

That's part of what qualifies them as chickenhawks!

The other part is that, like Dean, they're willing to send poor people's kids off to take risks and commit acts that they, personally, were not willing to take or commit.

It's an integrity thing.

[Cha]

122. Dean has plenty of "Integrity"! You're just trying to spin it to

suit your own muckety muck muck.

[Mairead]

133. Sorry you can't perceive the integrity issue, Z.

It's still a real one.

[Cha]

142. I "perceive" it just fine.. I perceive your Spinning just as well.

[ibegurpard]

155. Do you have any evidence that there was some influence peddling

that got Dean his deferrment? If not then I am content to believe that the military evaluated his condition and disqualified him. That has nothing to do with someone's integrity.

[ibegurpard]

153. The chickenhawks are called on the carpet, and rightly so,

for being gung-ho on sending kids off to war without exhausting all other options first. I don't recall Dean doing this.
As for deferrment and skiing...he was disqualified from service. Now, having a back problem could mean that you might not be able to perform necessary duties that could put your comrades in jeopardy in a life-or-death situation. It does NOT mean that you have to be bed-ridden.

[Mairead]

156. "I don't recall Dean doing this"

Up through his Salon interview with Tapper, in February, Dean was in favor of the Iraq invasion. The invasion was in no way a no-other-options effort. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

He wangled a legal deferment that he need not have taken -- he had to ask for it, and he did. Had he chosen to not mention the problem, they would not have caught it because they don't do spinal xrays during an induction physical. Yet he is willing to send the children of the poor to do what he made an effort to avoid having to do himself. That's chickenhawkery.

According to the orthopaedic surgeons' society, the condition he has is unlikely to be congenital (as he claimed), but is likely to have come about because of his participation in HS sports--they implicate weightlifting and football, particularly: two of his sports.

Lots of poor kids also play football and lift weights. But they are unlikely to get more than an aspirin if they get a backache. So they wouldn't be diagnosed, and they would have gone to Vietnam--to risk their lives and wellbeing, and to commit acts that will haunt them forever--all unaware that they had a get-out-of-jail-free card.

If that's okay with you, then you have different standards than I do.

[theboss]

102. It does concern me in one way

And it relates to the entire reason why I am reluctant to jump on the Dean Bandwagon. Basically, I have doubts about throwing my support to any son of a Powerful East Coast Family that has been in a position of privilege for centuries. I have huge problems with the ideas of nobility and privilege. It just doesn't seem very . . . American to me, I guess. That's why Dean has always been behind Edwards in my personal poll and is currently behind Clark as well. (And, by the way, I am a total hypocrite on this issue, because I know Senator Rockefeller personally and have supported him vigorously).

Dean "avoiding" serving and then going to spend his life on the ski slopes just smacks of class privilege that I nor my family will ever know and it makes me question whether he can relate to me as a leader.

[Cha]

120. Ye Gods!

And then he goes on to become a Dr and marries a Dr and they set up practice in Vermont. They don't live a "life of privelege" now. Did you bother to investigate behind the soundbites?

http://www.deanforamerica.com

[MoonAndSun]

123. A VERY IMPORTANT SENATE DEBATE GOING ON NOW!!!

and yet this thread is the one most people are paying attention to. Unbelieveable!!!



<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=439762>





debating an amendment for a Indp Counsel for the Wilson affair.

[Upfront]

124. You Must

Or you would not have dredged it up again. Another Thinly vailed Dean attack. Give me a break.

[ButterflyBlood]

154. you have a star

do a search and see what I think of Dean, then explain why I would attack him.

[kiahzero]

130. Yes, it's cheap crap

Look, I'm a Clark supporter and I think this is crap.

I have Crohn's Disease. Basically, my immune system attacks my colon. I am ineligible to be in the service, period. I wouldn't be able to get the treatment I need, nor would I be able to take care of myself as well as I need to.

Should I decide to go into politics later in life (it's a distinct possibility), and there were a draft, this same crap would come up. And it'd still be digging for ad hominem attacks.

[Mairead]

132. Do you favor military solutions to political problems?

Are you willing to demand military action be the last resort?

Are you willing to demand that privilege not play a part in selection for military service?

[Cha]

143. It is crap... and like the poster said ..."ad hominem attacks"..

[sangh0]

146. Is that the response to every issue?

Dean wanted to cut Medicare It is crap

Dean said he wanted to raise the age of retirement for SS It is crap

Dean didn't know how many people in the military It is crap

Dean may have evaded the draft It is crap

Dean will continue Star Wars It is crap

Dean supported NAFTA It is crap

[blm]

150. don't blame z...

she's fairly new to politics.

[Mairead]

149. Zidzi, check the definition of 'ad hominem attack', would you?

Preferably before the edit window for your post expires.

[QC]

145. It won't keep me from voting for Dean, but it does matter.

I'll happily vote for Dean if he gets the nomination, and if I had been of draft age during Vietnam, I would have tried to get out of going, too. It was a pointless war.

But a few people here keep trying to bring up a very important issue, and it keeps getting lost in the usual "my candidate is perfect and yours is Satan" blather.

That important issue is, of course, that who fought in Vietnam was primarily a matter of class, and the same is true of our more recent wars. It was the same point that Charles Rangel tried to make when he called for a draft and caught no end of hell from people who just didn't get it.

For most Americans, the draft was not something you could take care of by asking Daddy to get you in the guard ahead of 500 other people, and it was not a minor inconvenience you could remedy on your way to the ski slopes.

It's very instructive at this point to remember that through the entire length of the Vietnam War, only one member of Congress lost a child there. That says more than anything else I can think of about how the ruling class was insulated from the costs of that war. And, of course, only one member of Congress now, out of 535, has a kid serving in the enlisted ranks in Iraq, which only shows that nothing has changed in the past thirty years.

Class is still a taboo subject in this country, even on the Left, and it's way past time that America had a good, long talk about it. Can anyone really deny that the main reason our government is so cavalier about all these foreign "interventions" is that the people who own our government have no fear of their children getting blown away?

[Mairead]

148. BING-OH! Well said!

Very well said.

It's about class and privilege. And the choices they create where no choices should be.

[blm]

151. Very sharp post, QC.

I hope more people take the time to read it. If they don't, you should post it as its own thread.

[kang]

152. Good post QC

For the record, I too don't think it matters whether Dean didn't go to Vietnam or not (although it doesn't help that he went skiing). It's not a negative for Dean so much as it is just a plus for those candidates that chose to go when they didn't have to (Kerry, Gore, and Clark). There are some conservatives that even attack Clark for having gone to Oxford after West Point instead of going to Vietnam directly (he did leave Oxford early to go). I suppose defending the skies of Texas is more dangerous in their minds.

To add to your class comment, joining the military is something I'm seriously considering, but many of my liberal friends assume that this means I'm more conservative than them. Suffice it to say, many of their opinions on the military are not flattering. I think it's atrocious that people on the Right wave the flag and pretend to have a monopoly on patriotism, but then again it does sadden me that many liberals have yet to overcome their own biases against what is an essential institution for our democracy and the world. Of course, this is not true in all cases, but there's something to this.