Bev Harris now threatening to attack her critics

[Kelvin Mace]

Her latest rant blaming everyone but herself:

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/9665.html?1124381696

The whole problem -- the ROOT of the problem with the uneasy relations in the election reform movement -- is that at some early point (beginning fall 2003) and accelerating powerfully during the last 9 months, certain individuals or groups decided that it WAS an "either/or."

There have been a number of actions to not only omit and minimize BBV work, but to remove this organization and me from the movement altogether. I don't say much about this publicly, but the actions taken have been vicious. Some of the actions (ie. entrapment attempts and Web site shutdowns) were illegal. There was an orchestrated libel campaign that has gone on and on and on.

No orchestrated campaign Bev, just the people you cheated, abused and smeared making the truth known. You are not being "minimized" you are being *ignored* by people who know you are a a vicious egomaniac. They know this from observing your actions and words.

There were no "entrapment" attempts or other illegal actions, just your lies, hype and paranoia.

Before you say "that's to be expected" -- yes, it is, but it should NOT be coming from within the election reform movement, and by organizations on the political Left. It is clearly an effort to split the base and control the message. That is what we object to, and that is what must stop.

When you hang with the scum of the political Right, when you fawn over them, when you encourage their mentally unstable elements to attack a sick man because you hate him and wish to discredit him, then you are not going to be well thought of by the "political Left".

For example, we're preparing an Online Think Tank. It will address some areas that have not been effectively addressed yet by others -- like brainstorming ways to engage a more diverse political and ethnic base, and having a real dialog on non-tech solutions.

A large number of the voting activism groups are now reluctant to participate, because they've been subjected to quiet, behind-the-scenes negative propaganda about BBV.

They are not reluctant to engage in these activities, they are unwilling to engage in these activities WITH YOU. You are poison. Do you think the media and the science community didn't see your vile postings about Andy? Hell, most of them have had to deal with your incoherent rants and attacks themselves.

Just this week, the primary voting activism organization in an entire state -- one that sends us 2-3 update emails a day, run by someone we have never met, but have always been supportive of, decided to "shun" BBV. Why? We don't know. We've never met the leader, and have always been cordial in e-communications. Perplexed, Kathleen called. She received no explanation and was hung up on. This is not an isolated incident.

I know about this call. It involved Joyce McCloy of the NC Coalition on Verified Voting and Joyce did explain her actions. She watched the Andy story unfold and watched what Bev did and said. She was horrified and wanted nothing to do with people who act this way.

Through her efforts, without any help from Bev, Joyce has managed to get a bill mandating VVPB though the NC General Assembly. She did this by NEVER mentioning Bev to politicians, since friendly legislators had warned her that was the best way to destroy their credibility.

A group in Seattle did backbends trying to get me to come speak. I rearranged my travel schedule to accommodate them. Suddenly, we were told, some activists said they would "refuse to attend" if BBV was there. We had never met the people in this group and don't know what we supposedly did or why they took that approach.

Of course you don't. Bev is either lying through here teeth or completely psychotic to claim she doesn't know why people shun her.

If you want to know why I didn't attend the April conference in Tennessee, it was because I was informed that the organizer did not want to allow me to come. I'm not talking about speaking. I'm talking about attending. I was never given a reason.

Let me spell it out for you then:

Because you lie. Because you raised over a million dollars and never accounted for it. Because you fired Andy. Because you smear fellow activists who dare disagree with your weird conspiracy theories. Because you are a fraud who took other people's work and passed it off as your own. Because you threaten people CONSTANTLY. Because you have attacked reporters and driven them away from covering the story. Because you are big on hype and short on facts. Because you lied about qui tam.

There, now you know.

BBV has been mystified as to what is achieved by removing this organization from the face of the planet.

We gain credibility with the media and with elected officials by removing hucksters from our midst.

If people spreading "facts" say they were "there" or they "know" these nasty things to be true:

- Ask them if they have spoken to me or Kathleen to hear any other side. (They haven't.) If you are concerned, then please contact us and ask for our side of the story. Think for yourself. The whole problem with this country is that so many of us became mindless lemmings.

Bev they have READ YOUR OWN WORDS. They have suffered through your abusive phone calls. They have heard your side of the story, they have seen your side proven to be nothing but lies, distortions and hype.

Aggressive acts beget aggressive acts. BBV didn't make the first aggressive move. Some of the aggressive acts to take out BBV came from people who have done good work and achieved prominence in the movement, thus the "shot across the bow" -- because we do believe we should not devour our own. The problem is, BOTH parties need to cease the aggression.

So, now you are threatening us? Give it your best shot. Unlike Andy, I am not fatally ill and I will hand you your ass. Bring on your freeper thugs, I'm ready.

Now, if you see this post carried over to another Web site, observe the screen name of who posted it, and take screen shots of those who feed that thread. At BBV, we are moving towards using REAL NAMES, partly because the Internet is such a ready tool for paid propaganda instigators who operate under screen names.

Never made a secret of my name and every one here knows it. You know my address and phone number. I haven't taken a dime from anyone to tell the truth about you.

Oh, while you move to "real names" at BBV.org, will you also stop scrubbing posts from critics and posts where you incriminate yourself?

a BBV article on underground disinformation campaigns will be coming out when the time is right. If attack dogs are called off and appropriate rehab opportunities are made available, we will stick to the issues and not name names, to protect the movement from further rifts. Got that?

You go right ahead and name names.

BBV will absolutely be publishing an expose of the money and tactics used, to help other activism groups recognize these tactics when they are themselves targeted.

No one else is being "targeted", since no one else engages in wholesale character assassination as you do.

In a later post, Bev responds to a concern that "BBV doesn't play nice" in a most bizarre fashion:

I cannot imagine a more sexist and arrogant idea than "BBV does not 'play nice'." We are consistently told to apologize to others for their own aggressive acts. We are supposed to limit our commentary to fawning over the special guys. We will not be little women sitting in the kitchen being nice little girls, apologizing to our aggressors.

What does sexism have to do with a criticism that your organization attacks its allies? This is a straw man distraction to avoid dealing with the question of why Bev attacks her allies.

Why in the world did you believe either DU or WiredNews?

Because they tell the truth. They document their claims, something you NEVER do.

WiredNews also reported, remember, that I promote bellydance books and that I was making "millions" on a Qui Tam action. They knew both of those statements to be inaccurate spin at the time they wrote them.

Wired News said NO SUCH THING. Here is what they said:

Diebold agreed Wednesday to pay $2.6 million to settle a lawsuit filed by California alleging that the electronic voting machine company sold the state and several counties shoddy voting equipment.

The original lawsuit was filed a year ago by electronic voting critic Bev Harris and activist Jim March, who characterized the $2.6 million settlement as "peanuts."

March, a Sacramento whistle-blower who filed suit on behalf of California taxpayers, could receive as much as $75,000 because of the settlement.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65674,00.html

NO WHERE does the reporter claim Bev made "millions"

Also, if you check this link here:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990224082318/www.talion.com/dallal.htm

You find Bev's old web site promoting Tamalyn Dallal:

I danced across the borders of 31 countries, many of them male-dominated or third world. Let me take you (in the comfort of your armchair) to some of the remote and odd locations that I discovered.
Books:

- They Told Me I Couldn't: Travels of the Feminist Belly Dancer in COLOMBIA.

See? We provide proof and rebut yet another Bev Harris lie.

I would like to be able to write that story as a generic story about tactics and issues, with documentation. I prefer not to even hint at any names in this movement, but if the aggression doesn't stop, the names -- and specific paychecks and financial incentives -- get outed. Is that clear?

Except you have no such evidence because NO ONE is getting paid to attack you. Your reap what you sow.

It is amazing to me how arrogant the position is that you can participate in financially and career-motivated aggression against an ordinary citizen who is a woman, thinking everyone will accept it and there will be no push-back just because you are an "expert."

How dismissive. How elitist. How sexist. But I digress.

Again, the weird attempt to make this an issue of sexism. How is it sexist when you are acting like a dick?

Consider this post a planned maneuver. The aggression will STOP. Or it will continue. The instigators will either stop the bullshit whispering right now, or BBV will engage for real.

Any time, any where.

Failing that, we've got a hard-hitting expose in the works, and for the very first time, we will fight back in public and with the help of the mainstream press.

What's it going to be, fellas?

Translation: We have a whole new smear campaign in the works.

From another post, she starts quoting me and responds after a fashion:

A raging anti-BBV attack is already in high gear elsewhere from people who claim they are working in this movement (I agree with you, Catherine_A, that they are either paid operatives or manipulated by someone who does not have election reform at heart). Evaluate the veracity of the comments yourself...

Yeah, I am a paid Diebold operative who helped craft a bill mandating paper ballots in NC that was just signed into law. :sarcasm:

She then posts my accusations, but omits my links proving them. (While I am excerpting Bev's posts, I have provided the link to them so you can judge whether I have altered context or misquoted. In case you missed it, here it is again: http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/9665.html?1124381696)

I have worked with over 300 people in election reform over the past several years. Lynn Landes, Dr. Rebecca Mercuri, many more. "Getting burned" sometimes translates to didn't get their way or tried to rip off this organization.

She has the balls to mention Mercuri and Landis? She has smeared both women!

Email them yourself and ask them their opinion of Bev.

This is one of the talking points repeated over and over. Note that the "us" is peculiar. BBV never raised any appreciable amount from any Web site, and occasionally, when we have been able to identify people who complain about donations, it turns out that they (a) never actually made a donation or (b) donated less than $10.

Here the link to how much money BBV made:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3246549&mesg_id=3246549

(Disgusting. This one's getting repeated a lot of late. Okay, if I didn't find the Diebold files (Ch. 9) who did? If someone else broke the Chuck Hagel story (Ch. 3) why did I get the cease & desist from ES&S? If I didn't obtain the Diebold memos (Ch. 11) then why is the original tarball, intact, posted on this site? where did it come from? How did this original version get into my hands?. Note the 328 footnotes and 300 more in-text citations. This is called "research" not "putting your name on someone's work." By the way, I also proofed the book and typeset it.)

The Diebold files were found by script kiddies. When Bev looked at them she had NO idea what they were.

Some kids who are "really interested in computers" were playing around last year, spidering through the links on various websites, when they discovered that Diebold had an unsecured FTP site (the same one Behler had used). One of the boys noted the fact on his website. Some other material on that site--not the stuff about Diebold--attracted a lot of hits, and that automatically led Google, the cyberspace search engine, to position it among the early-listed sites for many searches. One day Bev Harris, a literary publicist in Washington who was doing research for a book on vote-counting in computers, fed Google the right search words and the FTP site itself popped up. Knowing little about computers, she turned to David Allen, who was publishing her book, and he recognized the openly posted source codes and much other data concerning Diebold voting machines.

Ronnie Dugger
The Nation, Augst 16, 2004
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger

Bev OPPOSED my downloading the Diebold emails, claiming they were a "honey trap".

Bev repeats the lie about typesetting and proofing the book. All this was dealt with here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230#2022086
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230#2024281

(Testified 5 times in Calfornia, and provided evidence from a still-protected source to Kevin Shelley, which history will show influenced his decision to decertify the TSx)

I stand corrected. But would appreciate if someone could verify that she testified FIVE times.

(The WH asked to have it overnighted. However, I sent it two weeks later. I might have overnighted it, or might have sent it priority mail, don't remember, but yes, they called to have it overnighted. When they didn't receive it they made two followup calls.)

Prove it! First, she claimed it was Bush. Then when she was called on it, she backpedaled. The claim was subsequently scrubbed from her site, so if she stands by it, why scrub it? Here is a copy of the post:

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/bushbought.htm

And here is the slimiest comment to date:

One of the more bizarre (and oft-repeated) allegations is that I murdered, or somehow contributed to the death of a former Black Box Voting employee.

His name was Andy. What's the matter? Can't write his name?

Some people have equated the actions of your freeper proxies with murder, but I am unaware of anyone saying you murdered Andy (in anything other than a metaphorical sense). You CERTAINLY helped hound him on his death bed.

There is plenty more on the thread, but I can't stomach any more.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/9665.html?1124381696

[HereSince1628]

1. What's new?

[Kelvin Mace]

2. Her "promise" to escalate her smear campaign

unless we stop picking on her.

[Maddy McCall]

28. Telling the truth about her isn't picking on her.

I'm surprised none of her two bevbots or her sockpuppets have shown up on this thread yet.

[Boredtodeath]

37. Not for a normal person

As for her bevbots, they'll be along.

[Patrick Henry]

120. Bev Harris is a hero to those who support Democracy. But her attackers....

This nice little hatchet job on Bev only shows that there are too many people who don't support democracy her. It's interesting to see that people are working hard to try to confuse us and make us doubt the person who brought the BBV issue to the forefront. Bush would love this tread.

[Ladyhawk]

129. You haven't been here long, have you?

Could someone dig up the old threads for Patrick Henry? I know it gets tiresome explaining Bev to every new kid on the block, but it has to be done. Maybe we should put something in the Demopedia? Can someone post the short list?

[Kelvin Mace]

133. Patrick Henry has no profile

But only a few posts. I think they are wising up over Bev's way and are planting user names for future use.

[Kelvin Mace]

131. Ah, release the puppets!!!

Can you come up with something other than these very tired, very hoary arguments.

Please, be creative.

[Maddy McCall]

156. Bev, your name does not equate with democracy.

I am a supporter of democracy. I am NOT a supporter of Bev. That does not mean that I am not a supporter of democracy.

[Swamp Rat]

171. Hi Bev! I just found another of your threads:

:hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2020091

[Kelvin Mace]

201. Nothing further to say?

Giving up so easy?

Here's a challenge:

Explain to me why your "hero" told a bald face lie in her post.

WiredNews also reported, remember, that I promote bellydance books and that I was making "millions" on a Qui Tam action. They knew both of those statements to be inaccurate spin at the time they wrote them.

This statement is very clear. Bev claims that Wired News said she was making millions and that she was promoting "belly dancing books". She also accuses the reporter of knowing the statements were untrue.

Yet, when we go to Wired News and look at the story, we discover:

1) It was NOT a Wired story, it was an AP story.
2) It makes neither statement Bev attributes to it.
3) The statements in the story that were made were completely factual.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65674,00.html

This is a completely simple challenge. Explain to me why Bev lied.

[Nickster]

3. Good Job Kelvin Mace, keep speaking the truth.

[Teaser]

4. Bev Harris: the dilemma:

Either Bev Harris is an extremely talented con-artist, or she is sincere but unstable and grossly incompetent.

Either way, I don't want her on my team.

[Skidmore]

13. I don't track this very much but my guess is she is

a flaming borderline personality disordered individual.

[Kelvin Mace]

21. Such is the diagnosis

of the armchair shrinks in hte board.

[Maddy McCall]

26. Why is it either/or? I think she's both.

Her actions against the very people on the BBV team showed me that she's unstable. The threats of law suits. The airing of private matters on the home page of her website. All point toward her being UNSTABLE.

The fact that, on her website, she sold "Clinton Cigars" during the Clinton crisis shows me that she's a con-artist.

So, in my opinion, she's an unstable, incompetent, yet extremely talented con-artist.

:shrug:

[Jo March]

5. She just has totally lost it

I can't understand this woman. After the 2004 election, I worked getting information from states all over the country. It wasn't "glamorous" but I felt as though I was doing something. I sent my stuff to her org, but never heard back from them. I then worked with other groups who were just as busy but they at least let me know that they received my information.

BBV was disorganized from the get-go. She was insulting and downright nasty to many DUers. She lost the respect of many people through her own actions.

David, she tried to make you out to be a horrible person because of what? Money? A vendetta? And don't even get me started on what she did to Andy. It makes me shake from anger to see how both of you were treated because you "crossed" her or however she wants to put it.

If anyone mentions her name nowadays, it only leads to arguments and controversy. Who wants to deal with her and her baggage? Not folks who truly want election reform.

She distracts from the mission. She is not an asset any longer, merely an annoying and potentially destructive distraction.

I am so sorry that you are having to prepare yourself from another one of her raving onslaughts. I hope you know that you are respected here on DU by many folks. I respect you greatly for what you have done for NC, my home state.

P.S. When I did a spell check, it gave me great pleasure to hit "ignore" when BBV came up!!! ;)

[Kelvin Mace]

7. Thanks for the vote of confidence

We are now picking on George Gilbert, the "DREs-can-do-no-wrong" election director in Guilford Co. who is outraged about the new law and is doing all possible to undermine it.

Six of us went to the County Commissioners meeting last night and lit into him.

[benburch]

6. While we are at it, Bev...

Can you show that your organization filed its 941 forms last year?

Can you show that your organization mailed out its W-2 forms for last years taxes?

Can you show us your 501 c3 filings for the most recent fiscal year?

[benburch]

186. Still Waiting!

<crickets>
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</crickets>

[Boredtodeath]

8. This is beyond bizarre!!!!!!!!!!

Failing that, we've got a hard-hitting expose in the works, and for the very first time, we will fight back in public.....

So her middle of the night posts, right here on DU attacking Eloriel, Roxanne, Cindy Cohn, countless others with her lies and innuendo were what?

My, my, my.......the woman has gone completely round the bend....

[Maddy McCall]

9. So she wants to be a victim of sexism now? LOL!

That's funny. Many of her critics, including me, ARE feminists.

Poor Bev. She's been exposed for what she really is (a charlatan). Her organization has fallen into irrelevance, yet she's still fighitng for its last breath of air.

Oh, did you notice that she says that she's AGAIN on the verge of something big? Ha!

Thanks, KM, for posting this for us to read. I had completely forgotten about Bev and her "BBV" group.

Bye Bev. Enjoying watching you fade away.

[Kelvin Mace]

11. I don't see too many people posting

on the thread, just the same folks saying basically "atta girl, Bev". I see one fellow (Joe) who is skeptical and he's already been attacked (though Bev defends him). I wonder how fast a post with a link to this discussion would get scrubbed?

[Boredtodeath]

25. Smart Joe

Gets her to admit SHE IS THE AUTHOR on the record!!!!!

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha, Go Joe!

I wrote the story, not Kathleen.

[Maddy McCall]

42. Hmm--there's a link to DU there now.

Wonder if the botflies will show up soon.

[Boredtodeath]

46. Any minute now

I'll bet we even get a brand, spanking new user which turns out to be Bev herself. Maybe "bailey78" huh?

[Maddy McCall]

47. Yeah. She can't resist.

:eyes:

[Kelvin Mace]

115. Where?

In that thread? I didn't see it.

[Maddy McCall]

158. It was there for a couple of hours.

the Bevitor must have edited it out.

[FreedomAngel82]

60. And what is that something big?

Her ego? :shrug: I have yet to see any proof of anything she claims. At least people like BradBlog and Clint Curtis and John Conyers have proof. I would trust them way more then I would her. It's very rightwingish.

[Boredtodeath]

10. One more thing.......whispering campaign?

Ummm, what I have seen is very vocal, very visible reach back calling the woman a liar in the open.

What whispering? I'm shouting to anyone who will listen.

Let's all be sure to get screenshots and save that thread to our local computers. When her board of directors get wind of these threats, they will disappear.

Hey, Bev! Bring. It. On.

[Kelvin Mace]

14. Already saved

I wonder whether she will run her "expose" past her lawyers.

I can't see any lawyer endorsing it.

So, will she post Photoshopped "evdidence", or is this just a bluff?

[Boredtodeath]

17. Mountain of evidence

against HER.

She might want to remember that there are parties who have her EVERY EMAIL, including the ones accusing you of being stupid enough to accept a "honey pot" on those internal Diebold memos.

Not to mention the ones calling David Dill, Rebecca Mercuri, Lynne Landes, Cindy Cohn and Avi Rubin the most vile of names.

[Walt Starr]

12. Trust is built upon history

and history has demonstrated I cannot trust Bev Harris.

[meganmonkey]

15. "How is it sexist when you are acting like a dick?"

Bwahahahaha!

:spray:

[Boredtodeath]

16. Extortion and blackmail

ex·tor·tion (k-stôrshn) n.

1. The act or an instance of extorting.
2. Illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage.
3. An excessive or exorbitant charge.
4. Something extorted.

black·mail (blkml) n.

1. Extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information.
2. Something of value extorted in this manner.

[elehhhhna]

18. Her writings above are proof positive that...

she's a drama-drenched wack-job.

[Maddy McCall]

22. Yes. Amen. 100 times yes.

And her being shunned by the movement is, to her, more tragic than the movement being shunned, which it's not. It's gone mainstream, while Bev languishes in irrelevency.

And THAT is killing her.

[coffeenap]

19. Thank you KM--as a friend of Andy, I thank you for your work. nt

[mogster]

20. Thanks for keeping track of this!

> One of the more bizarre (and oft-repeated) allegations is that I murdered, or somehow contributed to the death of a former Black Box Voting employee.

This really says it all, doensn't it?

She doesn't even mention his name.

[Zomby Woof]

23. I was one of her first detractors on DU

I remember the viciousness with which I was attacked for doing so - especially by Andy Stephenson himself. Vicious may be an understatement. When he finally came around, not a word of apology for smearing me as a Rove troll and other bullshit.

So yeah, I like saying "I told you so".

[Boredtodeath]

27. That's very courageous of you

Attacking a dead man.

Andy made a lot of VERY public apologies.

[Kelvin Mace]

34. Now, let's not start a a fight over this

I can understand Zombie's bitterness. Andy did make public apologies but that was one that should have been made personally.

We can't change it. I'm sure if Andy could make his wishes known, he would apologize now. (He's probably kicking himself).

[Boredtodeath]

35. Agreed

But it was still a cheap shot.

[fooj]

36. Yes, it was.

:hug:

Peace.

[Zomby Woof]

43. No, it was not

Since when does terminal illness absolve one of one's wrongdoing? It doesn't. But that's off-topic. I am only concerned with the fact that Bev Harris poisoned a lot of people, and if I have to tell some unpleasant truths about it, so be it.

[Zomby Woof]

40. I am not bitter

But I am one who likes to remind people when I am vindicated. ;-)

I hold very unpopular opinions, and know that exacts a price I am always willing to pay.

[Boredtodeath]

41. Good for you

Others judge us by our deeds.

[Zomby Woof]

39. I am not attacking him

I am just telling the truth. A PRIVATE apology would have meant a lot more though. Never saw the public ones.

I myself hold no grudges, but I do like reminding people (and I did this when he was alive too, so don't jump to conclusions about my courage here) he was no saint.

And the whole voter-verified paper ballot thing is a wash too - fraud can be done in infinite ways, there is no foolproof method of prevention.

[merh]

49. You don't hold grudges but you come to say "told you so"

and to trash a dead man. What are you doing about election reform? Just wondering. :shrug:

[Zomby Woof]

51. There is a difference

Saying I told you so is not the same thing. It's more an expression of self-satisfaction, not anger or hate.

I am not trashing Andy, just telling you MY point-of-view about him and his character. Death does not absolve anyone of their shortcomings, so please do not use such a nakedly emotional ploy in the face of logic.

As for election reform, I think we're fucked, and I am not going to pretend I am doing anything about it. Certainly, sloganeering about "voter-verified paper ballots" isn't bringing Diebold to its knees, is it? Nope. I would say my methd is at LEAST as effective as the sloganeering.

[merh]

56. You are trashing the man -

When you go on the road to teach about monitoring and auditing elections, when you go lobbying in DC for election reform - then I think you can be upset that some recognize Andy's accomplishments more than yours. If you have done those things, then share them with us so we can thank you for your efforts on behalf of election reform.

Voter Verified Paper Ballots is effective - because you don't agree with it doesn't make you right or the position ineffective. Guess what, in my county the statement "voter verified paper ballots" did have an effect.

[fooj]

67. Hi.

:pals:

Peace.

[merh]

70. ~

:hug: :cry: :mad: :cry: :hug:

:loveya:

[Boredtodeath]

72. By their deeds, ye shall know them.

Just remember Andy's deeds.

The contrast couldn't be more stark.

[merh]

74. I know - and I do appreciate the reminder.

:hug:

[FreedomAngel82]

62. I think it's really lame

how you're saying she's "attacking" someone when it's clear that's not the case. :eyes: Oh brother. Don't be a drama queen. All the person is saying is they were right and never got an apology for being called awful things. Oy!

[mzmolly]

122. "This person" is promoting a position in which the party in question is

unable to defend himself.

I don't know how Andy felt about "this person" or if he felt that said person was worthy of an apology. But the fact that we're discussing this now, when Andy is not here to defend "his side" of the story is nauseating.

Spare me the ego trip ~ is all I can say.

[Kelvin Mace]

128. I think we have worked the issue out

Please see below. Let us not let old wounds upset us.

[mzmolly]

117. Exactly. How low can one get? I've had many discussions with DU-ers

who are right or wrong on various topics. I don't demand a public or private apology when someone disagrees with me regardless of what happens months down the road.

I also question discussing a former DU-er in this manner who can't defend himself in the flesh.

Pathetic.

[Maddy McCall]

121. Well, molly, let's you and me go there right now.

I am sorry for the way I acted towards you during the primary wars.

:hug:

[mzmolly]

124. Back atcha!

:hug:

:hi:

You are a worthy adversary, however. And, that's a compliment.

[Maddy McCall]

126. LOL! And you, too.

:) :pals:

[mzmolly]

132. Thanks.

;)

:toast:

How's homeschoolin' going?

[Maddy McCall]

151. We officially start back on the first schoolday of September.

It's going great, though. My son's going to take some of our summer travels and write a report about them. His first two topics are:

1) KKK and the Killen trial
2) Homelessness in New Orleans

How's it going for you?

[mzmolly]

198. We start next week b/c were taking a vacation in September ...

Going well here also.

What interesting/thoughtful topics for your son to write about!

:hi:

[Zomby Woof]

123. It wasn't the disagreement

It was the extent and the viciousness of the ATTACKS on me for disagreeing.

No way in hell would I care if anyone ever apologized for ever disagreeing with me.

But these were above and beyond the norm as far as attacks go.

To repeat, I made all of these charges when he was here to defend himself.

So it is irrelevant to bring up his inability to be here. I already said elsewhere I harbor NO GRUDGES against Andy or his memory. Please read everything I say before passing judgment on me.

[mzmolly]

130. Well then you should let it go now.

I made all of these charges when he was here to defend himself.

As for viciousness, I've seen your brand of that as well, and asking for an apology for "viciousness" is a quite hypocritical on your part. This is DU, it's vicious at times.

I believe you have advised others to grow some skin? Might I suggest you take your own advice and let Andy rest in peace?

[Zomby Woof]

134. I have made my peace with everyone I have crossed

But I do it privately, which is more dignified, in my opinion. It is not productive to bring up ancient history (it has been a LONG TIME - many many months - since I have broken any rules on personal attacks).

[mzmolly]

137. Good for you.

Peace

[merh]

173. Did you?

:shrug:

[Zomby Woof]

174. The ones worth making peace with I guess

:shrug:

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Thtwudbeme]

187. Exactly what "untruth" are you referring to here?

I know some of the folks Zomby has crossed on DU--

His idea of "making peace" and yours might be different...that's like Religion, right? You can't tell another soul how to make their peace--

However, you are accusing him of lying...and I am interested in how you came to that conclusion by his posts?

By the way...just to avoid confusion, this is Stephanie...I was posting under my husbands name (JanMichael) so whenever you see those two names on this thread, you can assume that you are posting to the very same person.

Stephanie

[merh]

188. Please take the time to read his posts -

then you might understand. Old grudges in this place are used far too often, like religion, to spread hate and as an tool of harm and dissent.

[Kelvin Mace]

191. And I keep trying to pur oil on troubled waters...

:)

Let it go. Many people got their feelinsg hurt in the last three years thanks to Bev. Let us not re-open the wounds. Please read my other posts on this to Zomby.

Andy would not want us to fight over this, that much I know. If he were here, Andy would apologize for his words to Zomby and we would move on. Sadly, he can't, so we are getting wound up over past hurts.

I have apologized to Zomby, not *for* Andy (which I have no right to do), but in his memory if that makes sense.

[nini]

195. I'm seeing a lot of old grudges in this thread and they're not just ZW's

You need to practice what you preach and let this go. It's really getting to a point of absurdity.

[merh]

200. !!!!!!!!

:puffpiece: :puffpiece: :puffpiece: :puffpiece: :puffpiece: :puffpiece:

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

192. Easy,

I know the feelings are raw. Please read my comments on the issue.

Lord knows you were more sinned against than sinner. :)

[Kelvin Mace]

136. Again,

let's not start a fight on this one. A Bevbot has arrived and we now have a more interesting playmate. <g>

[Zomby Woof]

141. Truly

Although I am going to watch from the sidelines. I feel bad as it is threadjacking you inadvertently.

I have a thread in the Lounge about Diebold, perhaps I should post it in here for the people who never go into the Lounge.

[Kelvin Mace]

150. Please...

[Kelvin Mace]

30. I am sorry to hear that

He did apologize to me and a number of other people he attacked. I can't speak for him, but I can say he was trying to apologize those he offended.

I think it was an oversight, but I do not wish to seem to be making excuses for the lapse.

[Zomby Woof]

44. It doesn't matter

I just get a little ill sometimes with the hero worship - which is unmerited. I am a "don't follow leaders" type.

[merh]

48. So do you hold grudges all your life - cause apparently you hold

them long past the life of the person that offended you.

And is so doing, you harm only yourself and those that loved the dead man, including me. Your actions here may explain the accusations you complain of.

[Zomby Woof]

50. I don't hold any grudge

But I will say I am the better person. Here's why:

When I took on Bev Harris, I never attacked her personally - just her lack of facts and the way she used con artist tricks to sway people.

So when Andy attacked me (and other BBVers did too - lots of them), he DID attack me personally. No factual debate, no taking on my points - just slander and viciousness. It wasn't exactly an even-handed debate.

So no, you're wrong. I have no grudge. But I do believe in setting the record straight, and people are free to love him as they see fit. Am allowed to not share that love? I fully hold that I am.

[merh]

53. Yes you do - you pout because he didn't publicly apologize to

you - you rant because "you are the bigger person" yet you malign a dead man who cannot defend himself. How do we know that he didn't come to you in private and you shunned him, laughed in his face and refused his apology? We can't know because he is DEAD and you are telling only your version of events and MALIGNING his memory.

Andy never claimed perfection, he did make public apologies for believing in the lies of BH and for harming others on DU while believing. Hold the grudges all you like, they just make you the smaller person and let others know what you are really like.

You can't set a record straight when the dead man is not here to defend himself - you only are able to tell you version of the facts. Dead men tell no tales and yes, a friend of mine has died and I loved him and I do not appreciate your posts maligning him when he cannot defend himself.

[Zomby Woof]

57. You're simply wrong on this one

I am telling the truth - and no, he never came to me privately or publically.

I have mended many fences with DUers I once was at odds with. He could have been no different, had he so chosen. It was HIS choice to attack me when he simply could have debated me.

And "pout" is much too strong a word, lol. I would say I am being a bit uppity, but not pouting.

I said all this when he was ALIVE, and on these boards, so that pretty much shuts down your argument. I said ALL of this, when he was alive.

Again, you are using his death as an emotional bulwark to attack me, when I have done nothing to you.

So this is my last word on the matter. I really think I have wasted enough time on it.

[merh]

63. He is dead - do you not see that your attesting to the fact that

he did not apologize to you only makes you look like a small, miserable person. He is not here to defend himself. How can anyone know that he did not apologize to you and you refused the apology?

I am not using his death for anything, I am pointing out to you that HE IS DEAD and cannot defend himself and your comments only offend you and those that loved him.

Hope you feel better trashing a dead man - you have another fence to mend now that you began this exercise in "told you so" and "I'm the bigger person" crap.

[FreedomAngel82]

64. As someone looking into the ordeal from the outside

not really. You're the one, in my opinion, who is doing that. You're using the excuse that someone is dead. So what? I have plenty of loved ones who are dead and can't "defend themselves" when they are brought up in arguments. :eyes: Simply all the person is saying is they told the truth about BBV and they got attacked publicly personally and they never got an apology. It's really quite simple and in my opinion and from looking in from the outside merh are looking like the small person using a person who is dead for not facing reality and what happened. I don't know anything of this except what the other person is claiming. All you have to do is apologize and face the truth of what this person is saying instead of going around and around in circles avoiding it. All the person is saying is they are wanting an apology. Why are you avoiding that?

[nini]

68. thanks for saying this

the reaction got more out of proportion than necessary. Those on the outside never have knowledge of the 'whole' story and need to remember that when casting judgment.

[Maddy McCall]

71. I don't know you, but I do know Zomby and merh.

What I am about to type is the biggest admission on DU that I have ever typed.

I was there when Bev started to gain a following at DU. I was one of those who warned other DUers about Bev. I have been attacked, smeared, ridiculed, and demeaned because of my anti-Bev stance.

I also was hesitant to accept Andy's public apology when he came back to DU after Bev fired him. When he became ill, I stayed away from the fray. I realize now that I had not released my resentment of him.

I have now, though, and I hope the man rests in peace. God knows that I wouldn't want to go through the ordeal he went through at the end of his life.

He can't apologize now, but those who know him have already said in this thread that he would have if he had known that anyone had continued to feel slighted by him after his public apology.

Now, on to merh.

FreedomAngel, I have no idea who you are. But I do know merh. Merh worked tirelessly on the fund raising effort for Andy's treatment. She is a generous, kind person who gives of herself when she sees a person in need. Merh is not using an "excuse." Logically, rationally, think about it. How is Andy supposed to extend an apology from the grave? If anyone felt that there was continued discord with Andy, that person should have PM'd Andy BEFORE his death so that he could make it right.

But how DARE you call merh a "small person." She is perhaps the most kind, generous DUer I have ever known, and I take personal offense to you, who admit to looking in from the outside, smearing her in that way.

Now, this is NOT an Andy thread. Respond to me if you like. I won't reply.

Hijacking this thread to discuss this topic is just, to put it bluntly, stupid.

If you guys want to discuss who Andy slighted, then why not start a thread about it.

[Zomby Woof]

112. Thank you FreedomAngel

And although I am sure I will have a few doubters, I truly have no residual grudge with Andy, nor do I wish to exhaust the subject any further. He wanted to meet me once (when he was god_bush_cheney) by coming to my farewell party in Seattle 2 years ago. I gave him directions, but he never did make it. Perhaps if we knew each other in person, things may have turned out differently once the BBV issues got underway. I admit my opinion is shaped solely in limited terms.

I merely tried to express my particular opinion from a specific time and place, which has little bearing on the present in any event.

For those who have sincerely tried to communicate with me in civil terms on this matter, thank you.

[Ladyhawk]

144. merh was a good friend of Andy's

and due to Andy's death, feelings are running awfully high. Andy's death shouldn't be used to justify either side of this disagreement. It's too raw, too painful a thing.

I have always agreed with the position that people should be held accountable for what they do during their lives. I hope to god that I live my life as well as I possibly can so that no one who deserves an apology is denied such. Most likely, I will fail, but I will do the best I can. I'm human and I screw up. Often.

No one is perfect. From what Kelvin says, Andy had apologized (and probably rightly so) to many he had harmed. I wish he had apologized to Zomby, too, but that can never happen now. Zomby has a right to his feelings. I don't think he's carrying a grudge. He's simply pointing out how he feels. :shrug:

Please, merh, Zomby and others--you have differences of opinion on this matter. Don't let it come between you when it comes to the work that you do. :) I like you both and can understand both points of view, so it's a bit hard for me to see you argue. I hope you can come to an understanding.

[Zomby Woof]

166. Oh, I love everybody

:hug: Thanks for your words of reason and wisdom.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

114. Some people are a legend in their own minds ey?

"nah nah nah nah nah nah" is the mentality that were dealing with here. Thankfully few DU-ers lower themselves to such O'Reilly-esque tactics.

[merh]

170. ((hugs))

:hug:

[JanMichael]

176. Just out of curiousity, how many times do you use the word "dead"

in your posts to ZombyWoof?

I miss Andy...I remember him from this and other boards...I never met him in person, and am sorry for it.

I have had many people in my life that I loved die. My grandmother was one of my most favorite people ever...and you know what? She was a BITCH. Not to me, but to other people....

Her being dead doesn't gloss over that little fact.

Andy isn't being asked to defend himself on this board today, and every single person that reads DU for more than oh...say a couple of months knows that we have lost some great DUers.

So drop the emotional "dead" game; it just is going to piss people off.

He acted like a jerk to Zomby---get over it---

As far as Zomby is concerned...get this...we didn't speak or acknowledge each other for what...a year? We met at the Grand Canyon in June...I know consider him a personal friend.

This man does NOT hold grudges. Sorry.

Stephanie

[Zomby Woof]

183. Thank you

The opinion of someone who knows me in person is valued highly.

:jackdaniels:

ZW

[JanMichael]

184. You are welcome...I miss Andy everyday on DU...and Kheph, and Nostajmi

Playahata....ALL of them.

But, I am tired of the "I was friends with them and they are dead" emotional game.

What happened to Andy sucked...I was so hoping he would make it...he tried so hard...however, while he was alive, he was a human and awful sometimes as the rest of us.

Stephanie

[Zomby Woof]

185. I wished Andy a full recovery too

I have no idea what would make anyone so warped as to think just because I was at loggerheads with someone ON A MESSAGE BOARD that I would wish ill on him in real life. Anyone who questions my sincerity OR veracity needs a head examination.

I won't get into the vicious fuckbuckets associated with Bev Harris or scamdy. :puke: My little plea for an apology pales in light of that sordid shit.

I think you, Kelvin, Ladyhawk, nini, and Freedomangel have had proportional responses to what I said.

[Kelvin Mace]

193. We need to remember that written

communication can be fraught with peril when we discuss issues involving hurt feelings. It is too easy to see flippancy and meanness when it is not present.

I think this is the problem on this topic.

[Eloriel]

199. The "I didn't get a good enough apology" game is even worse,

Stephanie. Sorry, but it really is.

And I'm not saying that as an Andy fan, 'cause I wasn't. Not against him in any way, just not part of the fan club. It's not about that, or who we're friends with now.

Further, you simply can't say that someone "doesn't hold grudges" when that person's entire "contribution" to a lengthy thread is a complaint about someone who physically can't possibly make it right (if the complaint is even valid -- not exactly a proven point, AFAIC -- and assumiong said dead person would even WANT to make it right).

That's the very definition of holding grudges.

I can't believe so many DUers are letting him get away with that bit of self-evident hypocrisy.

[Stephanie]

52. You were right

Many of us were conned, by a first class grifter.

Oh, and Bev - this is my real name. You know where I live. Take your screenshot. :hi:

[Zomby Woof]

59. And you have my thanks for sincerely trying

I NEVER trashed the effort, because a lot was at stake. I never trashed the people who followed Bev.

In fact, I was trying to WARN people, by going after HER.

So I am glad you tried, and are still trying. Please keep doing so.

[Kelvin Mace]

79. And I appreciate that

We have all done things we are not proud of. In the beginning I was not as attentive to what she was doing and probably stepped on some toes.

For that I am embarassed and I profoundly apologize.

I spent a lot of time trying to soft-pedal my criticism of Bev in order to preserve unity in the fight, but eventually, it became too much ignore.

I think I am on solid ground by saying that Andy would aologize now if he could. Can you accept an apology from me in that spirit?

[Zomby Woof]

109. You're fine by me, Kelvin

I never had a problem with you. Thanks for being upfront and honest.

[Kenroy]

140. Wow.

Seriously. Just wow.

[Generic Other]

24. Bev's dirty laundry aired for all to see!

Thank you for posting this. I am ashamed that I ever had any association with her organization.

[LondonReign2]

29. Oh no! She is readying an expose!

Will it be as fact-filled as all her other work??? :sarcasm:

[Boredtodeath]

32. No doubt!

I can't wait to help her victims have their day in court with the REAL facts, uncolored by Bev's dementia.

[Maddy McCall]

33. Well, the good thing is, the more time she spends preparing her...

"expose'," the less time she has to do damage to the BBV movement. Right?

:evilgrin:

[mattclearing]

31. Bev who? She's still around? n/t

[ohio_liberal]

38. Oh my, an "expose"!!!!!!!!!!

BOO!

:rofl:

[Boredtodeath]

45. Yeah! Aren't you scared?

Me too. :sarcasm:

:scared:

[ohio_liberal]

55. The anticipation is killing me

It's sure to be a real barn burner. NOT. :D

[emcguffie]

54. Just curious. Anyone know her birth data?

Have any DU astrologers looked at her chart?

Seems to me she does an awful lot of projecting, accusing everyone else of what she is guilty of. I'd be curious to see her chart, or hear what some of the astrologers here at DU might think about it.

Anyone?

[FreedomAngel82]

58. She is such a looney

How can anybody take anything she says seriously?

[smartvoter]

61. Bev just doesn't get that people don't want to deal with her because of

her actions. She is completely out of touch with reality -- the people who want nothing to do with her were her best supporters -- financially and otherwise and she is still trying to shift the blame for her mistakes.

[Stephanie]

65. And Bev, you did contribute to Andy's pain and suffering >

He was very, very upset by the harrassment he sufferred from those freepers, freepers that you PUBLICLY EGGED ON - the evidence is still up at their site, except for the threads that were pulled after complaints - we have screen shots of those. I don't know what else you did behind the scenes. Perhaps one day we will find out. But you made a sick man, a dying man, miserable, when he should have gotten nothing but comfort and love. A man who was your partner and your friend until you turned on him as you do everyone who crosses your path. I don't know how you live with yourself.

Here's what you said to the freeper who took the lead role in harrassing Andy while he was sick and dying.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1402493/posts?q=1&&page=1101#1147

To: stands2reason; commonguymd; eyespysomething; Repub4bush; volvox; mozrock; ShorelineMike; ...
DUMMIE ALERT!


DUMMIE ALERT!


FORMER ASSOCIATE OF FELONIOUS ANDY SPEAKS!


SETS OUT FACTS ON FELONIOUS ANDY!


Image hosted by Photobucket.com
Image hosted by Photobucket.com


I must say this source has more balls, and more courtesy and class, than than, well, just about anyone who has ever been involved with felonious Andy.

Dear Fred,

With regard to this: "made Bev Harris a very rich woman since she scammed the DUmmies for at least $300,000 by making them think she was only $10 away from proving vote fraud in Ohio."

Never happened.

(a) I receive a salary of $60,000 per year from Black Box Voting, Inc., no more, no less, no secret trapdoors or gimmicks. The organization is a registered 501c(3) nonpartisan nonprofit, governed by a board of directors (seven people) who represent every part of the political spectrum.

(b) Black Box Voting put out a call for $50,000 for a massive Freedom of Information Act request, delivered to jurisdictions nationwide on Nov. 2, 2004, just after the polls closed. We raised it and -- though jurisdictions have stonewalled, stalled, sent nonresponsive items, ignored, and in some cases refused the request, we have received tens of thousands of pages of audit documents now, from both Republican and Democratic counties. These are scheduled to go online in June.

(c) We have a challenging fund-raising schedule for operating costs, because interest peaks only every four years. Therefore, we did aggressive fund-raising, and raised about 60% of a 2-year budget in small donations from individuals (from many different sources), and the other 40% from grants.

(d) I'm hardly rich. My financial condition is unexciting. I gave up about $50,000 in my own business revenues, and shut down my business, and donated all of my book revenues in order to found Black Box Voting. When the California lawsuit money (about $76,000) is released, I have already committed to donate it to Black Box Voting (after tithing 10% to my church, which is part of my belief system). I'll post the documents on this when the money arrives.

I'm betting a Broward County Ballot Box that no one can come up with anything from me or Black Box Voting saying anything like "we're just $10 away from proving fraud." I have such a ballot box, bought from E-bay, in my office. I'm confident it will stay there because there is no such statement. Our nonpartisan status has never allowed us to get involved in recounts or candidate issues.

We do not agree with the current thinking at DemocraticUnderground.com, which treats voting integrity problems as "Bush stole the election." That is possible -- may even be likely, who knows? -- but it is a fact that both Democrats and Republicans have their hands dirty, especially with regard to the voting machines.

Republicans are distracting attention by blaming it on "VoteR" fraud -- a cumbersome one-by-one method of cheating, and they studiously look the other way over hacking of the computerized voter registration system, optical scans, touch-screens, and tabulators.

Democrats are distracting attention by blaming things on voter suppression and punch cards, and they hurriedly change the subject when we discuss Democrats taking money from Diebold to push machines into Chicago and Cook County. Their hearings took testimony from Clint Curtis, who (backed up only by an affadavit and recently, a lie detector test paid for by a John Kerry supporter) says that he was ordered by Tom Feeney six years ago to write a vote-rigging program that was never used. (Curtis has a degree in political science, not computer programming). This may have happened, but it boils down to hearsay.

What has been ignored by the Dems is a videotaped demonstration in a real elections office of actually hacking a real voting system, of the kind used to count 40% of the vote in November 2004. Black Box Voting videotaped this in Feb. and again in April, and reported it to John Conyers, whose office has asked not a single question despite six follow up calls. Conyers uses the very system that we hacked in his own district, and two prominent Democrats got onboard with Diebold to sell it in Ohio and Chicago. (See latest lead story at http://www.blackboxvoting.org).

Another trip-wire is Volusia County. It seems that a cadre of people are very skittish about any discussion of its memory card anomalies (a memory card is an electronic ballot box -- materials obtains in our FOIA request show that even Diebold was asking Volusia what the hell they were doing with their memory cards.) Volusia is a county that votes Democrat, but of more interest to us is the very strong likelihood that memory card hacks are part of the sealed evidence in a for-profit Qui Tam lawsuit. (There are two kinds of Qui Tam -- the one we did, in which the evidence is UNSEALED and provided in real time to the public, and the unethical, strictly for-profit kind, where evidence is withheld from the public, but the bounty money is bigger and more likely to appear).

Now as for Andy: All of us at Black Box Voting wish him a speedy recovery. Medical treatment is never any fun. I do find the statements that he is "short" $4,800 rather curious, since we have his signature on the certified receipt for a $4,000 check from Black Box Voting that he has yet to cash. His spouse, Ted, also has about $100,000 equity in their house. Ted is an able-bodied and very intelligent man who chooses not to be employed.

We wish Andy a recovery free of complications, and I do believe that he is indeed going in for treatment at Johns Hopkins, and that he does have significant health problems. I do not think I've seen him, personally, say that he has pancreatic cancer. That is a diagnosis put forward on his behalf by others, if I'm not mistaken. I doubt very much that he is dying, but that does not mean that he is not at risk.

I will say this: Someone in my immediate family, whom I adored, died of pancreatic cancer. We lost him in six months, he was in considerable pain, and he certainly would have been unable to travel around the country, looking plump, cherubic and rosy-cheeked, giving speeches.

Maybe it is cancer, or perhaps a benign tumor or a precursor tumor, or pancreatitis (which is no joke either). Whatever it is, I am sure he is truly sick, and I hope he gets better quickly and as painlessly as possible. At the same time, I believe he should properly disclose the actual diagnosis. He often complained that he and his partner couldn't take a tax deduction on their house because he was the only one working and the house was in his spouse's name, and our state does not recognize gay marriage. It is possible that the two of them cannot obtain a loan on the equity on their house, because neither is employed.

While working for Black Box Voting, Andy was paid a salary of $48,000 per year. Because paychecks continue for a short time after termination, pretty much like any company where you get paid AFTER you work, not before, Andy was continuing to receive his regular paycheck in December while he was posting things like "I'm down to $1.21" at DU. He also received substantial payments from a donor named Laurie Grace during this time period. He was paid about $4000 from Black Box Voting in Feb., but though he signed for it, has not cashed the check.

Whatever his financial situation, we are glad that he is receiving top-of-the line medical treatment and wish him a speedy recovery. Sometimes the things he says are very annoying, but we all eventually meet our maker, don't we?

I'm content to let a higher power deal out the justice here. All I know is that I've been given a project to do, and along with other excellent people, most of whom I've been working with for several years, we are moving the ball forward each week.

Thanks for writing.

(name deleted to protect source)
1,147 posted on 05/15/2005 2:09:18 PM PDT by franksolich (fighting crime and corruption 24/7/365)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1138 | View Replies >

You're a monster, Bev. That's why nobody wants you around. You've shown your true face to the world and believe me Bev, it ain't pretty.

[0007]

66. Regardless of Bev's problems, I was one sure fooled hombre

[preciousdove]

69. Screen Shot this. YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY AND BELONG IN JAIL. n/t

:grr: :nuke: :spank:

[hunter]

73. Oh God Damned Bloody Hell.

:nuke:

[Cleita]

75. "I don't say much about this publicly."

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Boredtodeath]

76. ROFL, I know!

That had me rolling on the floor too.

and this one:
"....because we do believe we should not devour our own."

[tlsmith1963]

77. I Didn't Know Anything About This!

Bev ended up being a fraud? Well, at least when someone on our side goes off the deep end we let them have it. When a Right-winger goes berserk they hail them as a hero!

Is there any way that I can find out more about this? Who was Andy, & why did she lead him to his death?

Tammy

[Stephanie]

80. start here >

The Bev Harris story for newbies and those who have forgotten

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=340188

[Kelvin Mace]

85. You shoudl read these threads

The Bev Harris story for newbies and those who have forgotten
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x340188

My Opinion on Bev Harris & BBV (Warning: Harsh Language)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=211132

The answer to how much money Bev Harris really made thanks to Randi Rhodes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3246549&mesg_id=3246549

Separating Fact from Fiction about the writing of the BBV book
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230

Andy Stephenson was Bev's most ardent supporter who she turned on back in December, publicly fired for things she did, and then publicly accused him of faking his illness when he was dying of cancer. Worse, she egged on thugs at FreeRepublic, a Right-wing hate site, to attack Andy and the people helping him.

If you have any further questions, drop me a line.

[JanMichael]

78. How's the deep end, Bev? Have you learned to swim yet?

God, that woman is a fruitloop. Why she doesn't just take "her" money and slink off is beyond me.

Sometimes people just don't hear it when the great cosmic director yells, "CUT" when the fifteen minutes is up.

[Boredtodeath]

81. ROFL, good one!

It does, however, sound like she's drowning in her own bile, don't you think?

[JanMichael]

82. God, I don't know...I couldn't read that whole post without feeling MY

bile rising up.

She is just such a disgusting jackass. Her name can't even be mentioned on DU without flame wars erupting, and she wonders why she isn't invited anywhere.

Steph

[Boredtodeath]

84. Oh, there's more

What you see here is just snippets one post of MANY on her message board in that same thread.

It's like a traffic accident you just have to stop and rubberneck at.

[JanMichael]

89. I don't think I could take it today!

It's like watching a horror movie....blechhhh

[Boredtodeath]

98. It's not readable all at once

Just too bizarre.

[Fly by night]

83. "If you want to know why I didn't attend the April conference in TN...

...,it was because I was informed that the organizer did not want to allow me to come. I'm not talking about speaking. I'm talking about attending. I was never given a reason."

Bev Harris is more full of shit than the Crawford Porta-potties.

I was the organizer of the National Election Reform Conference in Nashville (my name is Bernie Ellis and I approve of this response). Like so many others, I had experienced Bev's raving loony act myself when I had called BBV during the fiasco with Keith Olbermann (to encourage Bev to take advantage of the opportunity that KO was offering) and had the unpleasant experience of having both Bev and Kathleen yell hysterically at me -- a total stranger to them at the time. I immediately posted my experience on the BBV web-site, where it stayed for weeks for anyone to read. (She didn't seem to know how to edit her own web-site at the time, something that it sounds like she has figured out by now.)

Then when I was organizing the Nashville conference, I had four other speakers say that they would not attend and speak if Bev was to be there. Andy Stephenson was among that group. I calculated that our conference would suffer more from the absence of those four speakers than it would gain by having Bev there and so I told Bev's scheduler that.

Bev's response was a) to offer me money (at least $1,000 and maybe more) to allow her to speak and b) to get a number of people (maybe 6 or 7) to write me to ask that she be made a speaker. After speaking with my planning group, we decided to stick with not making Bev a part of the program. I still do not regret that decision, and I am glad that one BBV-affiliated person (Vickie Karp) came and wrote up a very detailed and complimentary review of the conference, which was posted on DU and elsewhere back in April.

Since I don't have any excuse to visit the BBV web-site these days (I would rather drive nails into my eyes), I haven't kept up with her latest rants. However, I have been told that she has discussed me several times on her web-site. On at least one occasion, Bev has written me and when I wrote her right back with instructions to take me off her email list, her response was surprise and a question to me, "So are you not involved in election reform anymore?"

If only someone could hold a mirror up to Bev long enough for her to see how she is perceived by those of us who are actually working hard to achieve real election reform in our states and across the nation, it might be a cathartic moment for her. But I am presuming that the mirror would not break immediately or that Bev would cast a reflection.

Bev is one sick fuck and everyone knows it (it seems) but her. I stand by our decision for the Nashville conference and -- in viewing Bev's behavior at subsequent conferences -- I know we made the right decision. (Besides, we had two other raving loonies show up who kept our hands full without Bev.) I am thankful we had Andy's smiling face and fierce commitment to real election reform to grace us with his presence in Nashville. And I hope that Bev gets the help she needs sooner than later. And that she loses my email address, permanently. Peace out.

[JanMichael]

86. This post (arrow pointing up at post) should be read by everyone who

stills thinks Bev is doing a good job.

[Maddy McCall]

87. EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THE POST ABOVE.

Thanks, fly by night, for telling your story. Everyone should read this.

[ohio_liberal]

90. Bev's response was a) to offer me money (at least $1,000 and maybe more)

OMG, that's just hilarious.

[Fly by night]

97. It may have been $2,500. I've tried to blank out all Bev-related memories.

[Kelvin Mace]

91. She offered you money????!

Bev's response was a) to offer me money (at least $1,000 and maybe more) to allow her to speak On the phone or via email?

That is rich. Now she is literaaly trying to BUY credibility.

I confess that folks in my neck of the woods wanted me to go and represent the NC delegation, but I caught wind that Bev might be there and passed.

"So are you not involved in election reform anymore?"

This is a textbook example of how she thinks that she IS this issue. Unless you are working with her, you are not doing anything to fight BBV.

She should change her name to Narcissa.

[Fly by night]

94. Your response shows the damage that Bev does, even when she ...

... doesn't show up for an event. We really missed you at the Nashville conference -- both for what you could have shared about North Carolina and for being able to represent DU on our media panel (where you would have appeared with Bob Koehler, Bob Fitrakis and Brad Friedman.)

I am glad to know now why we couldn't get you here, but again I am sorry because I'm sure you would have gained from the experience as well. But I can hardly blame you for not coming when there was even a hint that Bew would be here. Your history with her is certainly more painful and long-lasting than anyone posting on this thread.

Hopefully, our paths will cross somewhere else soon. (Are you going to the Portland conference in late September? I may be there myself as a presenter.)

[Kelvin Mace]

99. Sorry

I would have liked to come, but I was not in the mood for a possible public confrontation.

I didn't know about anything in Portland, but that would be too far for my budget. I have been completely focused on the local scene.

My last foray outside the state was to Boston for an ACLU seminar.

[LondonReign2]

She wasn't trying to buy credibility, is my guess

She was probably trying to find more sheep to fleece. She probably figured $2,500 would be a small ante to pay to a whole new list of people to beg for money because "something big is about to break"

[Kelvin Mace]

153. True, hadn't thought of that.

[LondonReign2]

149. She wasn't trying to buy credibility, is my guess

She was probably trying to find more sheep to fleece. She probably figured $2,500 would be a small ante to pay to a whole new list of people to beg for money because "something big is about to break"

[Stephanie]

96. She offered you money to let her speak!!!???

OMG, Bev, your agenda is showing! And it's all self-promoting narcissism.

Thanks for posting, Fly by night. Testify, friends!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

182. this may be the best post of all

well said.

or how about holding up a mirror to Bev and see if there is a reflection!

: O

[CoffeeCat]

88. An outsider's impression of Bev...

I was not fully aware of the issues surrounding BBV. In fact, I probably understand about 10 percent of the total story surrounding Bev.

However, I can say this--my impression of Bev Harris is that she is total bad news. I'm on several Dem blogs and I read a great deal of political news from many sources (mainstream/blogs/etc), as most of us do. I've hardly read anything positive about her.

What's curious is that most of what I've read about her--is her own words. My impression of Bev has been formed by her own very-bizarre and lengthy essays.

I plan to become more involved with voting issues--and the LAST place I would go to volunteer or to get information would be BBV.

Again, I'm on the periphery of this issue--probably like most Americans. I bet I'm one of the many who never say a word about Bev--but have the distinct impression that she's someone to avoid and that she's not legitimate.

Interesting that Bev focuses so much attention and threats on those who are obviously commenting on her--when there are probably millions out there like me who don't really know her--but understand she's not respectable or legitimate.

She's ruined her reputation with her own words.

[Kelvin Mace]

93. You speak soothely, sahib

What's curious is that most of what I've read about her--is her own words. My impression of Bev has been formed by her own very-bizarre and lengthy essays.

Our most damning evidence against her are her own words.

[Ladyhawk]

146. Bev's threat to sue DU over a stupid, STUPID thing is what made me

take a good look. Bev likes to make threats. It's about all she does.

[CoffeeCat]

162. See, I didn't even know that she threatened to sue DU...

...I just know what my impression of her is--very negative.

I used to be a public relations executive, and it appears that Bev has a major PR problem--herself. If I was to advise her, I would tell her to hire a reputable, respectable, sincere person--put him/her in charge and then stay out of the limelight.

Bev has really destroyed her reputation.

All of the explaining and lengthy diatribes serve to solidify what others say about her.

She appears paranoid, defensive and weird.

[Stephanie]

164. She threatened to sue us all one night, for using the term "BBV"

Which of course we had all been using for years. Suddenly she decided those initials belonged to her and if we posted them here she would sue us. That was the night my eyes were opened too. It was unbelievable.

[Kelvin Mace]

167. The truly funny thing is

she claims to be a PR professional, as that is how she made her living.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

103. Tragically

she is quite human, the worst of humanity. Who knows the scars that have made her what she is. I try not to hate her, since it is counter-productive. That said, she won't bully me either.

She is not worth our hatred, only our pity. We have to keep sight of this fact.

[Boredtodeath]

104. I know about it as well

But it didn't come from Andy. It came from investigative work on my own into who that evil witch really was and is.

If Bev is looking for an "outing" she might want to consider that she has some pretty ugly things in her own past that won't play well on Main Street.

[benburch]

108. I would welcome disclosure of your data!

All I have is the rumor pass by the late, great Andy Stephenson.

If you have some actual data, post it here!

This is an Open Source Investigation, after all!

[Boredtodeath]

110. Sorry, I won't post it openly

But will offer it to anyone who files a lawsuit against her.

I won't sink to her level. We'll try our case in court, not on message boards.

Suffice it to say there's a reason Bev Harris is so familiar with fraud and the investigations of same.

And not because SHE was the investigator.

[benburch]

119. Very good!

I'll keep you in mind should that arise.

[Boredtodeath]

145. It's a deal!

Send me a PM when you get an attorney.

We'll have some fun.

[Stephanie]

165. and he told me too

It would be a simple matter to find out if any criminal actions had been filed against her in the past - that is a matter of public record.

[knitter4democracy]

95. Don't we already have an online think tank?

It's called DU.

She sounds totally nuts. Honestly, she's not doing herself any favors by talking. She should take a sabbatical and get some help.

[benburch]

101. Exactly.

You're soaking in it!

[Kelvin Mace]

102. The truly sad part about this

is that when Bev and I were working together, I pointed out that we were on the cutting edge of a new dynamic in political action: open source investigating.

Information was pouring into DU and it was very productive. Trouble was that as soon as Narcissa became the public "face" of the investigation, it went to her head. Of course, I also didn't know that even her early work wasn't hers, but work she had been paid to do by Steve Hertzberg. Originally, she was going to work on a book with him. I did not know this when I came along and offered to publish her book (not surprising, his name was absent from her "work"). She dumped Steve and glommmed on to me.

This could have been a VERY powerful tool handled correctly. Maybe we'll try it again sometime, but not likely.

[knitter4democracy]

106. Some people are always looking for something to make them

special--above everyone else. She seems to be one of them--always needing more attention, more praise, more of her name in lights. From what I understand of her issue with Andy, it sounds like it was about pride, not the good work that was going on.

It's sad, really, but we'll all be stronger for it and know what to look for in our leadership.

[benburch]

107. Buck up!

Open source investigating is just what we are doing RIGHT NOW.

Only we are investigating BBV, making sure that it is not a Racketeer-Influenced or Corrupt Organization.

[Zhade]

105. Again, you mean?

Fuck that scumbag liar.

[Kelvin Mace]

111. Well, yes

now that you mention it.

[Kelvin Mace]

113. Catch the new talking point

From a Bev supporter

"No Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern, no people of color whatsoever were included in the list of funded computer scientists.

Now, can anyone seriously consider the possibility that there are NO women who could have become funded computer scientists in this endeavor, and NO people the slightest bit dark-complected? "

Now they are smearing the NSF as racist/sexist.

[benburch]

135. How nice and subtle...

I can be subtle too...

Like; "How much would the GOP, Diebold and ES&S have paid to see to it that the BBV effort was fucked up as totally as Bev Harris Fucked It Up?"

Seems to me it would have been worth a fortune to them.

[WilliamPitt]

116. "At BBV, we are moving towards using REAL NAMES"

I've been using my real name the whole time.

Just sayin'.

:popcorn:

[Maddy McCall]

118. What's funny, though, is that Bev is always "moving towards" doing ...

something. She just never quite gets it done.

:shrug:

[hunter]

125. Yes, sir, Mr. Bungfeeb!

:rofl:

[benburch]

127. And mine!

Ben Burch is my real name.

I was given another first name at birth (which some of the Freepers have dug up) but my father was an abusive alcoholic, so I have gone by my middle name since I was a very small child.

[Kelvin Mace]

138. The problem I have

with using my name was everybody thinks I am Skinner.

[WilliamPitt]

139. We are all Skinner.

[benburch]

143. I'm not Skinner!

I'm Elad! ;)

[Kelvin Mace]

154. I though you were Brian

[benburch]

142. Naw...

If you were Skinner, you would have a next to your name.

[Ladyhawk]

157. That is brave of you, Pitt.

A lot of the nastiness that develops on the 'net is due to anonymity. People can hide behind their keyboards and when they do something that isn't ethical or terribly nice, they can hide behind the ol' nickname. I wonder if this is human nature revealing its true self or anonymity bringing out the worst in people? Is there a difference?

No matter what you've done, you've stood behind your own name. At least you're always taking responsibility for what you say.

Some of us would rather have at least the illusion of anonymity. I still feel I need it, for now. :shrug: I'd really rather not have freeps (or other undesirables) know my real name.

[greatauntoftriplets]

147. Jesus H. God....

I'll say this for the woman, she is a genius at projecting. She is beneath contempt.

[Kelvin Mace]

148. Am I reading her posts right?

is she actually editing the original posters remarks and inserting her comments DIRECTLY into the post?

[Boredtodeath]

152. Yep, you are

Red = Bev.

[Kelvin Mace]

155. How incredibly unethical

and Orwellian.

[Boredtodeath]

159. LOL, I know

Here's another thing I noticed..........

She's DEMANDING real names in her "think tank" and publishing them! I wonder if she told her particpants that their real names would be published???????

[VelmaD]

160. I really can't say what I want to do to that woman...

because it would consitute making a terroristic threat. Let's just say it involves a shovel. I will never forget how she egged on the people tormenting Andy in his last days. She's a vile, disgusting, pitiful excuse for a human being and I hope some day karma bites her in the ass.

[Stephanie]

161. Karma is already biting - that's what she's complaining about

She's ruined her own reputation, discredited herself, and the word is out. Karma's a bitch, and so is Bev Harris.

[Maddy McCall]

163. Amen.

[Kelvin Mace]

169. Now, now...

Calling her a bitch is sexist. Which is why I called her a dick.

[Kelvin Mace]

168. What a horrible thing to wish on Karma

Yuck!

:)

[troubleinwinter]

172. Her new logo is pretty cool, though....

[Boredtodeath]

175. Bwahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh that is just TOOOOOOOOO delicious!

You made my day.

[Kelvin Mace]

178. Ooops you made a mistake

that's BullshitBeV™

Don't wanna get sued for trademark infringement, do you?

[troubleinwinter]

181. Wow. Thanks. I wouldn't want to get SUED or anything!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

177. Qui Tam, Anti Andy domain, the Stalking of Andy Stephenson

*I hate to say it, but I anticipate that this thread is what Ms Harris wants. Any attention is better than none.

I can't find the old threads where she accused other activists of being in this for the money, but someone else may be able to provide that. At the same time she accused others, she was filing a qui tam -for money.


Nov 10, 2004 BBV wins qui tam lawsuit:

Calif. settles electronic voting suit against Diebold for $2.6M

RACHEL KONRAD, AP Technology Writer
Wednesday, November 10, 2004
California Attorney General Bill Lockyer announced Wednesday a $2.6 million settlement with Diebold Inc., resolving a lawsuit alleging that the company sold the state and several counties shoddy voting equipment.
(snip)
The original lawsuit was filed a year ago by Seattle-based electronic voting critic Bev Harris and Sacramento-based activist Jim March, who characterized the $2.6 million settlement as "peanuts."
March, a whistle blower who filed suit on behalf of California taxpayers, could receive as much as $75,000 because of the settlement.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/11/10/financial1831EST0118.DTL


Nov 15, 2004 Bev Harris threatens to sue Democratic Underground members for trying to
organize BBV clean-up crews:
CHANGE TRADE NAME IMMEDIATELY


Putting you on notice that hijacking the established trade name of a 501c(3) nonprofit is actionable. I have notified the mods. Do your good work, but under a name that you create and register, with a volunteer squad name that you create and register.


If DU continues to sanction this hijack, we will take action against both DU and the people who are doing this. Have notified our lawyer, who is working on this now.


Change it. Do it now. And your blatant use of someone else's trade name does not show very good ethics.


Bev Harris
Executive Director
Black Box Voting, Inc. - a registered 501c(3) nonprofit corporation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=3300#3470

Democratic Underground statement on banning Bev Harris from forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=203&topic_id=108750


Dec 14, 2004

"Black Box Voting implodes"



Bev "the nut case" Harris and the "six-member Board of Directors of Black Box Voting" have formed a circular firing squad. Read on...

Source

"...The six-member Board of Directors of Black Box Voting has unanimously voted to terminate the employment of Associate Director Andy Stephenson, for:


Repeatedly lying to various members of the board of directors
Misrepresenting results of investigations
Mishandling telephone communications and withholding information
Temper tantrums and hanging up on members of the organization
Outburst at the Florida Supervisor of Elections meeting, offending public officials
Failing to assist, show up, or even call while Kathleen Wynne and Bev Harris repeatedly reached him to request assistance when they were accosted by Volusia County police..."

It sounds like Bev and the Gang are drowning in their own disinformation.
http://bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=2&topic_id=343121

Screen shot of BBV.org website where they publicly post the firing of Andy Stephenson
http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/blame_andy.htm


Dec 23, 2004 Andy Stephenson describes being fired by Bev Harris for not showing up for "work" when
his sister died.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=192238

March 2005 Story of Bev Harris
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x340188

March 10 2005 Story of Bev Harris going after David Allen (High Point advisor to NC VV)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=341617

June 4, 2005 Anti Andy Stephenson domain falsely registered under name of David Allen:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3783013

The stalking of Andy Stephenson
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=383284


July 7, 2005 Andy Stephenson passes on
Seattle Weekly: News: A Fight to the End by George Howland Jr.
Voting-rights activist Andy Stephenson was so full of life it seems impossible ... and members of his family, Stephenson passed away on Thursday, July 7, ...
www.seattleweekly.com/ features/0528/050713_news_andy.php

[Stephanie]

196. Thanks for that excellent compilation - I'll add one more

Here is the letter from Susan Truitt after Andy's death. Susan Truitt is one of the attorneys who worked on investigating fraud in Ohio. She was one of the experts who testified in Conyers' hearings. Andy worked with her in Ohio.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4053858

From Susan Truitt:

From: Susan Truitt <susan_truitt@...>
Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 9:29 am
Subject: Our dear Andy Stephenson susan_truitt
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
My dearest Andy:

We love you. We miss you. You will live forever in our
hearts and minds and in our devotion to the cause in
your life - verified elections. We will not let your
work go in vain. We will strive to uphold your ideas
and ideals and we will work to make your dream of
verified elections a reality.

You were brave in life and in death. You fought long
and hard to assure the use of paper ballots. You
fought long and hard lobbying in Washington D.C., in
talking to others about auditing elections, you worked
hard in Florida after the 2004 debacle farce election
and in Ohio, uncovering dreadful discrepancies that
corrupt our election system. You made a gallant effort
at running for Secretary of State in Washington. You
made friends every where you went, with your affable
personality, your impish demeanor, and your great
sense of humor. You gave up smoking recently to regain
your health. You underwent cancer surgery - that was
needlessly delayed when JohnsHopkins lost your check
for payment. You felt so much better when you kicked
the diabetes brought on by the cancer. Your lifelong
companion, Ted, gave you hope and support and
encouragement. Your new puppy made you smile. You were
so upbeat and positive and determined to live.

You suffered under the cruel and false aspersions cast
against you by Bev Harris, and a handful of others. Do
you believe that Andy was sick, now, Bev? Do you?! You
can call off the dogs now, Bev. Andy died. He is dead.
But you told everyone that he wasn't really sick.
People accused him of not being sick. Even some of
Andy's best "friends."

Andy - we will not be the same without you. You were a
kind and gentle soul. A dear and sweet and brilliant
and savvy man.

You were like a brother to me. I cannot believe that
you are gone. Please call me and tell me that it is
not true. Please come back and be with us.

We LOVE you, Andy. We will carry your spirit around
with us in our hearts and minds and in our actions,
fighting for verified elections, for voter-verified
paper ballots - for valid recounts, for counting every
vote, every time.

My dear sweet soul. My friend and companion and
champion and comrade. You did not go quietly into the
night, and neither will we.

With love we hold you in our thoughts and prayers.

Love,

Susan
Proud to be your friend

If anyone is wondering about the "aspersions" - I just posted them above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4396683&mesg_id=4397969

- and you can find more by searching for Bev's posts at www.freerepublic.com. Yes, she is a freeper. Any port in a storm.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

179. Kelvin, now that you have this off your chest, I need you to do something

Dear Kelvin;

Bev has managed to distract some of us from the real task at hand,
making sure that our opponents don't derail our legislation by
screwing up legislation.

Have you written that op/ed piece for the NC newspaper yet?

We really really need that....

We have done our truth about Bev thing, gotta get re-focused.

If people want to be involved with her, so be it.
Many don't, and that is just fine.

I don't like how they treat people. No one told me what to think, it just came natural.

[Kelvin Mace]

189. Yes, ma'am

Took your words to heart this morning and adapted my piece from last night for the HPE. My wife is proofing it now. I had trim and prune to get it down to the word count.

:)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

194. thanks

I am getting extremely burnt out.

It will be great I am sure.

[The Magistrate]

202. Locking

This has become a flame-war.