"Your son volunteered. He knew what he was getting into ..."

[ArthurRuger]

So did I ... in 1968 five months after the Tet offensive. I dropped out of college and enlisted.

And like the current volunteers who are described by worn-out conservative flag-wearers, I had a rough idea of what I was getting into. That "rough idea" was based on trust ... trust in a system and, ultimately, trust in a specific leader and a specific governing political party.

The specific leader of course was LBJ, the specific party was the Democratic Party and the specific system was and is the system that allows us to hang our political opinions on buttons and sanctimonious drapery of stars and stripes from which we belch our prejudices.

When you sign up you endorse a contract on the bottom line. It's a contract with specified written obligations on the part of both parties, but also with unspecified but powerful assumptions on the part of both parties.

In the case of joining the military knowing what you are getting into is based on very powerful unwritten but nationally accepted assumptions:

1) The integrity and honor of the commander in chief of the military and that CIC's skill, wisdom and understanding of all reasons when and why military citizens are to be placed in harm's way.

As a volunteer you are at the mercy of that individual, his party and their combined priorities - with a strong expectatin that those priorities extend beyond a desire to remain in the driver's seat.

(2)As a volunteer you are at the mercy of your own fellow citizens (including your own family) whom you trust to be willing and supportive in making sure the leadership does not waste your vital blood, devotion and patriotism in pipe dreams, self-interested agenda's and idealogies; That leaders are driven by a genuine desire to involve the country in on-going mutual participation and compromise regarding foreign policiy before resorting to force as a last resort.

(3) Volunteering to become a soldier is volunteering to preserve and protect - with your own power and will - the country, it's borders, its citizens and its institutions. It isn't volunteering to keep a political party in power. The only way to avoid that circumstance is for the citizens to assume their rightful role in the triangular relationship with the troops and the CIC.

The troops are expected to trust the CIC's wisdom as well as the patriotic participation of the Citizens who will keep the CIC honest.

The CIC is expected to trust the troops to follow orders and expects to sustain by honesty and integrity the support of the Citizens.

The Citizens expect the troops to do their duties and expect the CIC to sustain by honesty and integrity his political authority. The Citizens must be willing to hold the CIC accountable and willfully resist when the honesty and integrity of leadership is absent.

That is what is going on right now. The President has demonstrated a lack of leadership at a time when leadership is needed. The killing continues daily .... and we are witness to a repeat of a leader who is like a deer caught in the headlights ... sitting there ... doing nothing ... pondering what ... while pretending to enjoy "My Pet Goat."

[Blue_Tires]

1. well said n/t

[Zorra]

2. Great post, well said. n/t

:thumbsup:

[kiraboo]

3. Nicely put. But let me add that, with respect to Sheehan's vigil,

it really doesn't matter what her son thought about what he was doing. It is possible that a person can volunteer, get sent to Iraq, perform his duty with great pleasure and confidence, and STILL BE WRONG. In the same way, somebody might regularly hit a bar after work, drink him/herself sick and then drive the ten miles home and arrive safely and see nothing wrong in the behavior. Happy outcome or no, we still have a responsibility to point out the foolishness and the danger of a wilful choice. The smear machines out there have a transparent way of avoiding the real issue and instead using the words of other misguided folk as "proof" that Cindy is wrong. But I say, what does it matter that her husband leaves her, or that many parents of dead soldiers don't support her view? She is still right.

[Fenris]

4. Excellent

:thumbsup:

[Kingshakabobo]

5. Excellent!

:thumbsup:

Note: I think you have a couple paragraphs duplicated. Either that, or I had dejavu. ;-)

[TahitiNut]

6. It looks to me like you've duplicated a cut'n'paste in your post.

The text
"And like the current volunteers ..."
through
"... nationally accepted assumptions:"
appears twice in your post.

It makes it difficult to read in detail, although I get a fair impression of what you're saying ... and agree, while I'd say it differently.

I was drafted in March 1968 and sent to Viet Nam for all of 1969. I went. I didn't cross over into Canada like some of my peers. I did not feel that letting someone else (another draftee) go in my place was an act of either conscience or courage.

Our system of government depends upon a military that's subordinate to an elected civilian authority which is, in turn, subordinate to the expressed will of We The People. Anyone serving this nation in the military, whether draftee or 'volunteer' or whether officer or enlisted, must trust in the American People to diligently exert their will in a democratic fashion. It cannot be the military's role to substitute their will for either that of the People or their elected civilian authority. Service means trust.

That trust (a social contract, if you will) has been betrayed. It was betrayed during the war in Viet Nam and it's betrayed by the illegal invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq. These latter are war crimes ... committed in the name of We The People. Unless and until we indict, prosecute, and convict these criminals, We The People are complicit in these war crimes. That's the 'bargain' of a democracy -- even in giving it up or allowing it to be stolen.

[ArthurRuger]

10. Dang Dial Up

I was trying to correct the spelling and fighting the vagaries of dial-up internet access. Bay Center is VERY rural.

I think it's corrected now.

Thanks for pointing oout the duplicates.

[Toots]

21. Was Rush Limbaugh aired daily on Armed Forces Radio then or any like him?

Today's military is different then when you and I were in. The brainwashing is more intensified in every area.

[TahitiNut]

23. So .... ?

No offense, but I fail to understand what that has to do with what I posted in reply to the OM.

We had Paul Harvey. We had Billy Graham. We had the "rose-colored" editorial control of AFRVN -- and Cronauer isn't left-wing now nor was he then, no matter how Robin Williams portrays him.

Remember, during the war in Viet Nam the "anti-war" folks were Republicans and Democrats and Independents. Remember, it was called "Johnson's War." The partisan alignment was NOTHING like it is today. The repeated attempt on DU to look at those days through the lenses of today's political context is fruitless and deceiving.

None of this, however, changes the allocation of responsibilities. We The People are ultimately responsible ... even in surrendering our democracy! Blaming The Troops, to any extent whatsoever, is merely a further retreat from that responsibility. People can retreat until their only options are prolonged oppression or bloody revolution. How far can we retreat? How long can we continue saying "Let George do it" (whether "George" is in uniform or in the Senate or squatting in the White House)?

Contrary to Truman's maxim, "The Buck Stops Here" is on the shoulders of every citizen ... not on the desk of some politician.

[Dr.Phool]

7. What happens when the recruiters lie.

National Guard recruiters were caught on tape in Florida high schools, guaranteeing students that they would never have to leave Florida. Even if it's in writing, they have ways to weasel out of it.

I enlisted in the military in 1969, and was guaranteed specific training. They didn't give me shit. They lied through their teeth. Even though my test scores were high enough to qualify for any school I wanted.

[meganmonkey]

8. Welcome to DU, Arthur

I am glad you made it through the Vietnam War, and you provide a much needed perspective. I am so tired of hearing that same line over and over ('they knew what they were getting into').

:toast:

(and it looks like you duplicated part of your OP so you may want to edit)

[Bigmack]

9. I humbly disagree...

Nobody who volunteers has the slightest fucking idea what they're getting into.

War... and the military in general... has been so glamorized and Hollywood-ized that impressionable young people have no idea of the grim realities.

I enlisted in the Marine Corps because JFK asked me what I was going to do for my country.

Jeeezuz...

[TahitiNut]

13. That's a different issue. It's associated, but different.

We raise our kids on Disney ... who tells us that monarchies are 'good' and success for a female is marrying a Prince.
We raise our kids on Santa Claus ... to whom they pray.
We raise our kids on the Pledge of Allegiance ... to an America that's the "land of the free and home of the brave."
Just as our kids trust us to care and protect them from harm, our youngest adults trust the People (and elected parental figures) to "do the right thing." After all, isn't that how we raise them?

Betrayal of that trust is a 'crime' we are all guilty of ... unless and until we correct it by taking control and participating in our own governance.

[leetrisck]

11. You vacationed in Aruba, you knew what you were

getting into? Who gets the coverage 24 hours a day and I don't mean this as a dismissal of the Holloway family - just a comparison.

[Bluerthanblue]

16. "you inhaled"

when you were born, you knew what you were getting into.!

No one truly knows what they are in for when they embark on ANYTHING.
And that is likely a blessing.

Because many of us would never take that breath.
Mixed up in all that 'knowing' is an 'innocence'- An 'inborn' trust in the 'goodness' and 'honesty' of those into whose hands we place our lives.

Experience is the only 'true' knowledge, and that only comes after the fact. We can 'imagine' but rarely does anything match our 'expectation'.

Good point Leetrisk. (and i hate to admit, my first response to the Aruba incident was "how could they let her go there unsupervised????"- i'm guilty as charged. Hindsight is so simple, and so cruel)

[johnnie]

12. Great post!

Very good and thank you for your time served.

[benny05]

14. Interesting perspective

and welcome to the DU, Arthur..:hi:

[flamingyouth]

15. Great post

:thumbsup:

[yodermon]

17. Excellent.

But here is the short version:
"He did NOT know what he was getting into because he was
LIED TO BY HIS COMMANDER IN CHIEF!

Iraq was supposed to welcome the troops with flowers and chocolates, or so our troops were told.


Iraq was supposed to pay for its own reconstruction costs with its vast oil supplies, or so our troops were told.

Iraq was supposed to easily train its own police and armed forces and take over their own security in short order, or so our troops were told.

Major combat operations were supposed to be over 2+ years ago, and the mission was supposed to be accomplished, OR SO OUR TROOPS WERE TOLD :mad:
(get the idea yet?)

So All you Fucking Freepers, don't you DARE stand there and sanctimoniously delcare that our troops "knew what they were getting into" when they were repeatedly L I E D to over and over and over again! They were DUPED -- along with the rest of the country, Including yourselves, including the Congress -- into BELIEVING A SACK OF LIES.


And that is what every soldier's death in this war is based on. A pack of fucking lies. This should be the message. This should be the meme. Our soldiers did NOT know what they were getting into, because they were LIED TO.

Good day.

PS There are tons more lies, of course-- who wants to add to the list?

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. Welcome to DU. What a tremendous post. I look forward to your

future contributions.

[zbdent]

19. Could you imagine the outcry if Bill Clinton said this to the guy who

publicly cursed him out after his son's body was dragged through the streets of Mogadishu?

Despite the fact that Bush41 was the one who sent his son to his doom?

Randy Shugart was the soldier's name . . .

[trekbiker]

20. great post!!

[w8liftinglady]

22. Good post,and if I might add...

my son is also a volunteer in the US Army.he is on his third war zone deployment(so far).It would seem that they keep changing the rules over there.He is a trained heavy equipment mechanic,but apparently was doing "something" in Fallujah a few weeks ago that had nothing to do with fixing Humvees.They are put in the position of firing upon civilians when they are doing guard duty(women and children,mind you)..although my son reassures me that they"aim low with the kids".It appears to me that they have no real strategy going on...although I'll admit I don't know much about military strategy.I just don't understand the logic of these actions when major military operations have supposedly ceased,and we are simply assisting in the reconstruction.

[rateyes]

24. Nailed the sucker! Great!

:kick:

[ellenfl]

25. may i borrow this? i have some freepers in another forum

that have used this refrain and i have not responded to it yet.

welcome to du. :hi:

tia

ellen fl

[ArthurRuger]

26. Borrow it?

Heck, we all own it. It's always been ours. Use it freely.

We've all been living by it. That's why you and I instinctively objected out loud long before now.

There's just been too many others blinded by the light that forgot it ... or were too busy with less important things to think about during civics class.

[ellenfl]

27. thanks. eom